Motor sailers - how well do they sail/motor?

[JimD]

I'm looking at Sam Devlin's Oysta 28 on the short list for my dream boat to build in a few years. Any thoughts or experiences with motor sailers? I doubt I'll ever be a very serious sailor and am mostly interested in a retirement boat that will be very practical, that is, get used a lot around BC's Gulf Islands, and a lot of time spent aboard, but not necessarily a lot of long distance sailing or passage making. Also, the BC coast has a lot of islands and narrow channels with tricky and sometimes dangerous tides and rapids where a good motor can come in handy. So a motor sailer starts to sound like a very good compromise for island hops. And this one can be built in plywood which has a lot of appeal.

Oysta 28 Motor Sailer

LENGTH 27' 10"
BEAM 8' 6"
DRAFT 3' 10"
POWER 18 HP Inboard Diesel
SAIL AREA 328 SF Sloop
WEIGHT 8600
BALLAST 2200

[Scott Rosen]

If you're serious about a motorsailer in the 28 to 30 foot range, you may be in luck. Cannell, Payne & Page has a Sea Sailer listed. See page 107 of WB no 182. Here's a link: http://www.cppyacht.com/wood.html

From the site: ENCORE appears to be an outstanding example of the well-regarded Wirth Monroe-designed "Sea Sailer" motorsailer which was built of teak in Hong Kong and extensively refurbished and equipped in the late 1990s. She is being offered for sale by a knowledgeable owner, and we feel that she can be very highly recommended for one desiring a motorsailer in this size range. Copy of a June 2004 survey is available upon request. In my completely biased opinion, this is the best small motorsailer, bar none. She is a sailboat first.

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/2/5/8/2/1258256_10.jpg

[ 12-24-2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

[Mike Dawson]

Jay Benford has several designs that you might find interesting. He was based in the Friday Harbor area for a long time and his designs suit the local requirements very well. His Benford 30 comes in enough variations (deck, hull, sail, power, materials and type of construction) to satisfy just about everyone. An example of a FG production B30:

http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1316986&slim=quick&

[Mike Vogdes]

Its not really a motorsailer but she would be well suited for the waters your describing.
I think the below decks could probably be made very comfortable if built as a single owners cabin.
http://www.cmdboats.com/littleislandtrader30.htm?cart_id=4fd2fdcaf20af6d2e 0ee923a5690b517

CMD has a few motorsailers on there site as well.

[Hwyl]

I was originally going to say that Motor Sailer is really a term from the 40's, when if you put a decent power engine in your saiboat, the engine would be so big that it would take up a huge amount of space in the boat. That does not have to be true anymore with compact engines.

Having said that, Devlin, who I admire enormously, seems to have embodied everything bad about old motor sailers in this boat. It seems to have no redeeming qualities. It sacrifices, sailing ability and accomodation for the sake of trying to look salty. Have you been in contact with Devlin? What is his logic behind this boat? What do you find attractive about it?

[bainbridgeisland]

Originally posted by JimD:
Any thoughts or experiences with motor sailers? I doubt I'll ever be a very serious sailor and am mostly interested in a retirement boat that will be very practical, that is, get used a lot around BC's Gulf Islands, and a lot of time spent aboard, but not necessarily a lot of long distance sailing or passage making.The line between auxiliary powered sail and motor sailers has indeed been blurred in recent years. Some modern ULDBs, capable of 300 mile days under sail, can also power at 10 knots.

I like the way Oysta looks but it will not perform under sail as well as a dedicated sailboat. Nor will it perform under power as well as a dedicated power boat. Because it has all the parts of a sail boat as well as a power boat, it would be more expensive as well.

My wife and I have been discussing exactly the same situation you have proposed. Now that the children are off to College, we too are planning extensive cruises north to BC and Alaska. As an avid, lifelong sailor, my first choice would be a sailboat. However, as you know, during the best cruising seasons in the proposed area winds are generally light and currents are strong. Depending only on sail would severely limit the range of cruising for a given time.

The compromise we have reached is a dedicated powerboat with a really fine sailing dinghy aboard. The boat I enjoy most these days is my Windmill sailing dinghy though it is too complex to rig and a little large to store on the deck of a modest power cruiser. We have decided to trade a flying bridge for space to stow a 13 foot, light weight sailing dinghy. With a mast and boom on the powerboat I ought to be able to get the bulky thing aboard easily enough.

When we cruise BC now, we are rarely underway more than 3-hours without a stop. So stopping for a sail when conditions are good is not really a problem. I figure if I can get the dinghy set up or put away in less than 10-minutes it will get plenty of use.

This solution has the further advantage of owning a sailboat with truly outstanding performance. Most cruising sailboats would not be as responsive or rewarding to sail.

My Wife enjoys rowing. Though 13-feet is a little short for rowing performance, it still makes a very nice rowboat. Our intention is to add a removable seat to the dinghy, so she can enjoy her early morning exercise.

[Hwyl]

Bainbridge are they going to be your own designs? Sounds exciting.

I've been sketching a boat that is (depending on the design spiral) a catamaran with a sling arrangement between the hulls for lifting a boat. It started as 60' with a Melges (this is a fantasy after all). I've been enjoying a J22 lately (heresy - heresy). So my fantasy is a little smaller.

I've also been thinking about making my fantasy powerboat having a transom rather like a dragger with extended sponsons for retreiving a boat.

All you need is a client smile.gif

[JimD]

Originally posted by Hwyl:
I was originally going to say that Motor Sailer is really a term from the 40's, when if you put a decent power engine in your saiboat, the engine would be so big that it would take up a huge amount of space in the boat. That does not have to be true anymore with compact engines.

Having said that, Devlin, who I admire enormously, seems to have embodied everything bad about old motor sailers in this boat. It seems to have no redeeming qualities. It sacrifices, sailing ability and accomodation for the sake of trying to look salty. Have you been in contact with Devlin? What is his logic behind this boat? What do you find attractive about it?Much of what I like about Oysta is the appearance, the old cargo carrier look. And the tall pilot house with the large windows seems very bright and airy for the often dreary coastal weather. Why do you think she would be such a poor sailer?

Something in the style of the Monroe I find less attractive but decent sailing ability is still an important consideration. The profile reminds me a lot of the Harltey 28, a plywood boat I already have study plans for and can afford to build and is also on my list. It's an older design and quite a few have been built. So is a plywood catboat for the interior space and the fact I've heard they motor quite well.

Can't get much from the Benford Group website. It's apparently under construction. The Island Trader has the look, alright, and I hadn't considered the idea of a dedicated motor cruiser with a sailing dinghy in tow. 30 feet would be the absolute maximum size. 25 might be better.

Thanks for the replies.

[JimD]

Glen-L also has a 25er with a flat bottomed dory type hull but something tells me this would not like the chop of a fast tide against a brisk wind.

[imported_Dutch]

It seems to have no redeeming qualities can you explain this?

[JimD]

Bainbridgeisland, now you have me thinking about iron sails. Some of the tugboat designs are mighty enticing, too. Even a 20 footer with a 20hp diesel such as Titan from Al Sorenson/Ken Hankinson would suffice, towing a 10-12 foot sailing dinghy. I'm getting warm and fuzzy just thinking about it :D

[bainbridgeisland]

Originally posted by Hwyl:
Bainbridge are they going to be your own designs? smile.gif I very well may design the boat. I have a bunch of preliminary designs, some for us and some for past clients, which come close. However, at the moment, we are building a new home. Though I am not doing the work myself it is still keeping me too busy to work on anything else.

The new home will have moorage which dramatically changes the size and type of boat we can keep. With moorage, we will be able to afford a larger boat. Most of the ideas we worked on assumed marina or trailer storage.

I will post a handful of the preliminary designs so far if you are interested.

David Mancebo
(edited to correct spelling)

[ 12-26-2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: bainbridgeisland ]

[bainbridgeisland]

Originally posted by JimD:
Bainbridgeisland, now you have me thinking about iron sails. Some of the tugboat designs are mighty enticing, too. Even a 20 footer with a 20hp diesel such as Titan from Al Sorenson/Ken Hankinson would suffice, towing a 10-12 foot sailing dinghy. I'm getting warm and fuzzy just thinking about it :D How about something small like this:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/pfecb45927133122cac060a8bb6052417/f5c42c4b.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/p39f893c6b3afe6ff481733cd6ec6cd39/f5c3e623.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/pda5e4ac5c40b691ecacd9ee8209d1378/f5c3e626.jpg

These preliminary drawings were for a friend from Seattle area who had a list of subsistence Boat Builders in BC who could build for a good price. Ultimately he bought a used boat instead.

The wheel house and galley set-up on this boat is almost identical to the trollers I used to work on. Today, I would recommend a Wallas Diesel stove in this galley. They are clean, easy to use and will keep the whole cabin toasty.

This boat is pretty slow but it would be far more comfortable in a seaway than just about anything else you could buy the same size.

David Mancebo
(Edited to improve images)

[ 12-26-2004, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: bainbridgeisland ]

[rick m]

Our vessel "Wanderbird" is a steel hulled former Dutch Beam Trawler that we have converted to a 12 passenger Expedition Vessel. We added a ketch rig to her and were pleasantly surprised when she sailed at 5.3 knts in a 20 knt breeze just aft of the beam. Our website is at www.wanderbirdcruises.com (http://www.wanderbirdcruises.com)

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by Dutch:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It seems to have no redeeming qualities can you explain this?</font>[/QUOTE]I tread with trepidation here. It seems to me that in this size, if you are looking for a motor sailer, I'm guessing you are looking for good sailing ability, good motoring ability and some weather protection.

Here's the Devlin boat

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/pc592e79202d21b59609f48407f9891c7/f5c3aba3.jpg

It looks really salty, but I don't think it would be a good sailer, and I doubt it would be a great motor boat. It does have weather protection. I think the engine is going to split up the accomodation. There does not seem to be a cockpit.

I guess I would design a good sailing hull, with a transom. I'd fit a 27 horse yanmar and a Max prop. A coachroof as large as possible without being a condo. A windscreen (like Swedish Yachts) and a great dodger.

So initially it would be a handy sailer, with a cockpit. It could be sailed from inside the dodger in inclement weather (maybe a bulkhead steering wheel). As a motor boat, the prop and motor would give it enough power to semi plane (maybe 8 or 9 knots). The maxprop is a folding prop and should not intefere with the sailing (expensive though) I'd probably have the engine under the cockpit sole, the accomodation would be standard two setees and V berth. I'd probably set up the companionway so that a person could sit comfortably in there (folding top step).

[ 12-26-2004, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[JimD]

Originally posted by bainbridgeisland:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:
Bainbridgeisland, now you have me thinking about iron sails. Some of the tugboat designs are mighty enticing, too. Even a 20 footer with a 20hp diesel such as Titan from Al Sorenson/Ken Hankinson would suffice, towing a 10-12 foot sailing dinghy. I'm getting warm and fuzzy just thinking about it :D How about something small like this:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/pfecb45927133122cac060a8bb6052417/f5c42c4b.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/p39f893c6b3afe6ff481733cd6ec6cd39/f5c3e623.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/pda5e4ac5c40b691ecacd9ee8209d1378/f5c3e626.jpg

These preliminary drawings were for a friend from Seattle area who had a list of subsistence Boat Builders in BC who could build for a good price. Ultimately he bought a used boat instead.

The wheel house and galley set-up on this boat is almost identical to the trollers I used to work on. Today, I would recommend a Wallas Diesel stove in this galley. They are clean, easy to use and will keep the whole cabin toasty.

This boat is pretty slow but it would be far more comfortable in a seaway than just about anything else you could buy the same size.

David Mancebo
(Edited to improve images)</font>[/QUOTE]David, something like this might do very nicely, with 6 feet to stand in the house, a small galley in one corner, and a v berth in the bow. Your drawing actually looks quite a lot like another Devlin design, the 22.5 foot Auk, a gaff cat/yawl rig, but Sam isn't selling the plans for home building. Perhaps he derived his design from the same type of boat.

[JimD]

Here's what Devlin has to say about the Oysta designs:

THE OYSTA - 25' and 30' motor sailers

A man came to us in need of a minimum-dimension live-aboard for use in all weather conditions. Features in the Oysta include an aft wheel-house with full standing headroom, equipped with galley, heating stove, sink and large dining-or-entertaining settee that makes up into a double berth. They have double steering stations, inside and out, to accommodate any weather condition.

The engine room is mid-ship, separated from the living areas by insulated structural bulkheads at either end. This keeps engine noise in the living areas to a minimum. The spacious engine compartment allows for working room as well as ample uncluttered storage and tankage. Access to the engine compartment is through a large water-tight hatch on deck in the 30' version. For power a 10-20 hp diesel is specified.

The forecastle on both of these boats is designed to be the master stateroom. The 25' has an off-center, cowl hatch to afford full standing headroom and to allow space for a gravity-fed, solar shower. The 30' has a full head and can be equipped with a shower, if desired. There are double berths in the forecastle with lots of storage room for clothing and other sundry goods.

The sail areas for these boats are listed below. They are generous but easily handled with boom gallows on top of the wheelhouse to aid the lone sailor.
...
Hwyl, I know what you mean about the engine room breaking up the living area, but the wheelhouse is big enough to convert to a double berth and frankly I don't know if it would bother me to have to walk from the house to the 'stateroom' or not. As for not sailing well it looks like a fairly typical double ender to me.

[imported_Dutch]

http://www.benford.us/images/20tug-yacht.gif

this is from j benford- part of his web site is up and running- it looks very similar to the above double ender with encircling coaming- there is a photo of one on one of his pages.

his plans are pretty detailed- i built a glass 12 foot round bottomed dingy he designed a few years ago

[Hwyl]

Jim, thanks for posting the quotes from the Devlin site. I did not see them. It makes some sense as a minimum live aboard. You'd have to go on deck to get from cabin to cabin, but I guess that would be O.K. given the space constaints.

[JimD]

Originally posted by rick m:
Our vessel "Wanderbird" is a steel hulled former Dutch Beam Trawler that we have converted to a 12 passenger Expedition Vessel. We added a ketch rig to her and were pleasantly surprised when she sailed at 5.3 knts in a 20 knt breeze just aft of the beam. Our website is at www.wanderbirdcruises.com (http://www.wanderbirdcruises.com):eek: :D Very nice, Rick. But I'm looking for an lod roughly equal to Wanderer's beam. You got over five knts with that rig? That is good news. Good luck with the season in 2005.

[imported_Dutch]

hwyl-
im not a designer, i mostly repair rotten old hulls. but i do know that for some folks the salty look alone will sell the boat. if it sacrifices a bit of performance or a bit of comfort then so be it. if youre looking for a boat that sails well, and motors well, then im sure theres a lot of sleek glass tubs out there that would fit the bill. but the fun for most folks is in how they get there, not how fast. were I given a choice sight unseen for either the double ender or a transomed motor sailer with comparable values, and I had to choose, i'd take the double ender every time

[bainbridgeisland]

Originally posted by Dutch:
hwyl-
if youre looking for a boat that sails well, and motors well, then im sure theres a lot of sleek glass tubs out there that would fit the bill. I think a timber boat can be every bit as fast as a "sleek glass tub". Further, they can be built to sail well and power well too. There are plenty of designers who can do this, for example, Tom Wylie or Bruce King to name just two.

However physics does come into play. If you force a sailboat to haul around a large 3-bladed prop, it is going to go slower. A power boat with a ballast keel and tall rig would also not perform as if it didn't carry them.

Classic good looks does not exclude a boat from going faster than a "sleek glass tub" (see Bruce King's work). The point is, if top performance either under power or sail is desired, a motor sailor usually doesn't provide it. This has almost nothing to do with the material the hull is made from.

[imported_Dutch]

bbi-

i know enough of design to know that performance matters little between duplicate glass or wood hulls . i guess my point was that some folks just dont give hoot for " performance" when it comes to a luxury item like a yacht. if youre in that much of a hurry to get some place why dont you just fly? it would be cheaper and the overnight accomodations at the hotel a hell of a lot better.

a water heater is a different story

btw- i like the sketch of your nw cruiser-any particulars on it?

[ 12-26-2004, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Dutch ]

[JimD]

So who besides me likes the idea of a 20 foot catboat with a wheelhouse cabin? Honest! There's a conversion of a Ted Brewer design at Devlin's website. I think it looks quite appealing.

[bainbridgeisland]

Originally posted by Dutch:
bbi-... nw cruiser-any particulars on it?Particulars:
Length over all 21'-0"
Length water line 20'-6"
Beam 7'-9" (w/o rub rails)
Draft 2'-3"
Loaded Displacement 4,605 lbs
Displacement/length 240
Power 12-20 hp diesel
Fuel 18 gallons
Range at 5.8 knots about 313 miles
Water 12 gallons

Accommodations:
6'-8" "V" berth
Chemical toilet with privacy curtain
Oil skin locker
Two folding seats in wheel house
Diesel galley stove
Sink
Storage, drawer and cabinet
Portable ice box under galley counter
Headroom 6'-3" (in wheelhouse)
Optional second helm on aft side of house
Aft ports on house open for access to coffee pot
Forward port on house opens for ventilation

Structure could be carvel, lapstrake or modern strip planking (shown):
3/4" strip planked western red cedar planking
Double sawn yellow cedar frames (28" spacing)
Yellow cedar keelson and stems
5/8 fir plywood deck and house
Yellow cedar sawn deck beams
5/8" fir plywood bulwarks
Exterior surface to be sheathed with Xynole polyester fabric and epoxy

[PVanderwaart]

Originally posted by JimD:
So who besides me likes the idea of a 20 foot catboat with a wheelhouse cabin? Honest! There's a conversion of a Ted Brewer design at Devlin's website. I think it looks quite appealing.Someone did, because they bought the mold for the Garden "James W Hart" catboat (mentioned in another thread) and built a sort of deckhouse cabin and deck to make a small motorsailer. I don't know how many they built, but they were advertised for several years.

It seems to me that the problem with the typical modern motor sailer is that they have both an expensive rig and an expensive motor. There is one up the street (Nauticat, I think) with two (2) spinnaker halyards! You should be able to save a little money on one or the other. So I would look for a boat with a simpler, less expensive rig. Perhaps a Nonsuch catboat.

Phil Bolger has a design that looks pretty neat to me called the 30' Cargo MortorSailer. The overall layout is like the one pictured above with a pilothouse cabin aft, guest cabin forward, and a low waist deck. In his case, there is a hold underneath - what the owner wanted. Granted you could get better accomodation in a 30' boat with that space devoted to accomodation, that mid-deck could be a big asset sometimes. The boat has a simple cat-yawl rig in the Bolger style. Ply construction.

[JimD]

It seems to me that the problem with the typical modern motor sailer is that they have both an expensive rig and an expensive motor. This suggestion has come up before, and partly because I know nothing about inboard marine diesels I don't really understand it. Looking at a design such as the Monroe, or Devlin's Oysta which calls for only 10-20 horsepower, wouldn't that be roughly the same powerplant as in any typical auxillary sailer in that size range and therefore about the same cost?

[PVanderwaart]

Looking at a design such as the Monroe, or Devlin's Oysta which calls for only 10-20 horsepower, wouldn't that be roughly the same powerplant as in any typical auxillary sailer in that size range and therefore about the same cost?What I know about powerboats is mostly that if you just blunder into something, it's likely to be very sub-optimum. However, I'll risk another comment or two.

It is even possible that a motorsailer could have a smaller engine and be cheaper than for a "sailing auxillary" if the motorsailer had the "right" gearbox and the "right" propellor, i.e. picked for efficiency under power rather than for least drag under sail. Still, most will have equal or greater power than the sailboat since they have a presumed greater reliance on power to get upwind in bad conditions, and because so many Americans have a love of big power, regardless of need.

My original remark was meant to encourge economy in the rig, rather than the power. Bolger remarked in print about the "cutdown imitation racing rig" seen in some motorsailers, and he is keenly aware that spreaders, wires, turnbuckles and end fittings cost money. As also, ballast. I'm sure he would also make the point that deep draft in a motorsailer is a questionable trade-off.

[JimD]

Pvanderwaart, yes, I see what you mean. These also seem like they may be good arguments for a modified catboat. One sail, a minimum of rigging and hardware, and a shallow hull.

[bainbridgeisland]

Originally posted by JimD:
[QUOTE] ... partly because I know nothing about inboard marine diesels ...Have you considered a 'Motor Sailer' with outboard motor power? You can tilt up an outboard for good sailing performance. As long as the transom is full enough to keep the power head out of the water, you could probably power in any condition you want to be out in. The 4-stroke outboards these days are dependable. A modest outboard is plenty powerful enough for a 26' to 30' foot boat.

One penalty you are likely to pay for when sailing is the extra weight. The weight would be due to the larger than normal engine and the larger fuel tanks. Also, If the rudder is forward of the transom and you use a long shaft outboard motor on the transom, the far aft location of the weight would somewhat hurt your upwind performance in waves. Compared to draging even a folding prop though, an outboard would allow better performance.

Instead of a 20-hp diesel, you might need a 30-hp outboard for the same performance. You would burn about 1/3 more fuel with the outboard necessitating larger fuel tanks for the same range. Actually, 30-hp is probably too much horsepower. Assuming you have a 25' LWL, 7,000 lb boat, you would only need a little over 5 hp to drive the boat 6.5 knots in calm conditions. Therefore, a 15-hp 'high thrust' 4-stroke outboard motor would probably be plenty of power.

You could obtain planing performance using this method if an extreme design is acceptable. Imagine a 29' loa glued lap plywood boat that weighs about 6,000 lb when loaded (about 1500 lb payload). Such a boat could be powered by a 50-hp outboard that would drive the boat about 11.5 knots at 3.6 gallons per hour (this is almost wide open throttle). As a sailboat, you could obtain very good performance, loosing only a little to excess engine weight and the weight so far aft. Still, with a high performance rig, such a boat would have no trouble maintaining 10 knots on a reach in ideal conditions. The disadvantage of such a boat is that accommodations would be similar to a normal 26' boat. You couldn't carry the weight needed for a normal 30' boat. On the other hand, the longer boat would be more comfortable underway than a short boat of the same weight.

[JimD]

I have often thought of a four stroke outboard for power because it is not a mystery to me and sounds so much simpler to my ear to not have stuffing boxes and so on to deal with. Say the word 'Honda' and I feel better already :D I don't like the idea of a transom hung motor, though. It spoils the appearance and I've heard too many stories about the prop lifting out of the water in rough conditions when you need it the most. A motor well, however, either at the stern or better yet in the cockpit would be fine.

[JimD]

You could obtain planing performance using this method if an extreme design is acceptable. Imagine a 29' loa glued lap plywood boat that weighs about 6,000 lb when loaded (about 1500 lb payload). Such a boat could be powered by a 50-hp outboard that would drive the boat about 11.5 knots at 3.6 gallons per hour (this is almost wide open throttle). This is starting to sound like quite a bit too much boat. Fifty horsepower and a wide open throttle is really not what I have in mind. A 20x9 or 10 foot double chined catboat with a modified wheelhouse cabin and 20 ponies under the hood might get about 5 or 6 knots and would be just about right, or Devlin's Oysta 25 for more waterline and less beam, if he would be willing to sell the plans, but he only lists the 28 foot version for sail.

[bainbridgeisland]

Originally posted by JimD:
It spoils the appearance and I've heard too many stories about the prop lifting out of the water in rough conditions when you need it the most. A motor well, however, either at the stern or better yet in the cockpit would be fine.There is no question at all that an OB spoils an otherwise lovely transom.

In the right sea conditions, any prop on any boat could catch air. The closer to the end of the boat the prop is, more common this is. But this isn't the whole picture. The shape of the boat has a lot to do with keeping the prop in the water. Here is what I mean.

For a client, I once delivered a Garden "Spice Island" within San Francisco bay. It had a long-shaft OB mounted on a bracket on the rudder. At dawn, flat calm, off Candlestick Park, we encountered a very low swell. It was probably less than 1-foot high but was tuned to the natural pitching frequency of the boat. Even though the power head was normally about 20-inches above the water it submerged at least a foot below the surface as the boat pitched and then the prop came out of the water. This boat had a fine stern as well as fine waterline forward. However the flare forward worked against the fine stern to cause the boat to pitch excessively (under sail too as we soon found out).

Now compare this to the modern Midget Ocean Racer I owned a few years later. Though owning the boat for a dozen years, sailing over 15,000 miles mostly off shore, we never submerged the power head. I believe that the stern had enough buoyancy in comparison to the angle of the entry and the displacement of the boat that it could never depress the stern enough, though somewhere I am sure our wave was waiting for us. Some conditions we sailed in were far beyond normal. I remember one day beating into 50 knot winds, gusting higher, and 14' seas. Though under storm jib alone, jumping over breaking waves so that competitors sometimes saw the bottom of our keel, the power head was dry when we arrived in Drakes Bay.

On the midget ocean racer we could easily get the prop to catch air by puting three or four crewmen on the bow pulpit. We could also catch air by heeling too much. I don't think this is what you mean though. Any boat that size would have the same problem with an inboard as well.

My conclusion is that it is possible to design a boat that very rarely has a problem with the out board motor catching air. Conversely, some boats will catch air even with an inboard in modest conditions. The fact that a boat is out board powered does not mean the prop will commonly be sucking air.

[Mike Dawson]

A few years back I posted a question about a 30' motorsailer designed by Gordon Munro back in the 1930's. It was a nice "classic" looking gaff sloop with a raised deck and a pilothouse. Kind of like an ELCO motorboat with a mast. It had a Ford flathead V8 under the PH sole. I would still like to find info on the design as I just saw the profile drawing in a book. John Alden designed a similar boat for Cheoy Lee back in the 50's. A nice way to cruise around.

http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/alden%2032.htm

[imported_Dutch]

So who besides me likes the idea of a 20 foot catboat with a wheelhouse cabin? jim-

check my post above about the j benford website. the boat pictured can be built as powered hull or cat boat

[imported_Dutch]

bbi-

i am wondering what advantage an inboard diesel would have over a small 4 stroke motor in a well long enough to tilt the motor up? fuel economy?
better ventilation against co?

[JimD]

Originally posted by Dutch:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> So who besides me likes the idea of a 20 foot catboat with a wheelhouse cabin? jim-

check my post above about the j benford website. the boat pictured can be built as powered hull or cat boat</font>[/QUOTE]Putting the tug wheelhouse on the hull of the sail version might work nicely. Probably have to chop about a foot off the foot of the sail and raise the boom a bit but that would be ok. Most catboats seem to go around reefed a lot of the time anyway because its the only way to reduce sail. But it looks like it would be hard to build in wood. Probably a lot of tricky strip planking which I'm not prepared to do. Wittholz has the 20 x 9.5 foot Madam Tirza for plywood which is also significantly beamier. That would probably make it sail worse, not better, but the added interior room and initial stability I like. Benford's has a deeper draft with fixed keel and significantly more ballast.

Benford:

Particulars: Imperial Metric
Length overall 20'-0" 6.10 m
Length designed waterline 18'-0" 5.49 m
Beam 8'-0" 2.44 m
Draft: Cat 3'-6" 1.07 m
Tug 2'-3" 0.69 m
Freeboard: Forward 3'-7½" 1.10 m
Least 2'-0" 0.61 m
Aft 2'-6" 0.76 m
Displacement, cruising trim: Cat 5,260 lbs. 2,385 kg
Tug 4,800 lbs. 2,177 kg
Displacement-length ratio: Cat 403.
Tug 367
Ballast: Cat 1,600 lbs. 726 kg
Tug 750 lbs. 340 kg
Ballast ratio: Cat 30%
Tug 16%
Sail area 310 sq. ft. 28.8 sq. m
Sail area-displacement ratio 16.4
Prismatic coefficient .557
Pounds per inch immersion 466 83 kg/cm
Entrance half-angle 26°
Water tankage: Cat 14 Gals. 53 liters
Tug 20 Gals. 76 liters
Fuel tankage: Cat 15 Gals. 57 liters
Tug 30 Gals. 114 liters
Headroom: Cat 5'-0" 1.52 m
Tug 6'-3" 1.91

Wittholz

CHARACTERISTICS:
Length overall 20' 0"
Length waterline 19' 3"
Beam. 9' 6"
Draft (C.B. up/down) 2'/5'3"
Displacement 4,940 lbs.
Ballast 1,000 lbs.
Sail area:
Gaff cat 338 sq.ft.
Gaff sloop 406 sq.ft.
Marconi cat 315 sq.ft.

[bainbridgeisland]

Originally posted by Dutch:
bbi-

i am wondering what advantage an inboard diesel would have over a small 4 stroke motor in a well long enough to tilt the motor up? fuel economy?
better ventilation against co?The Diesel will have better fuel economy; roughly 1/3 better than a four stroke gasoline engine.

Diesel is less flammable than gasoline.

A Diesel lasts about 3-times longer than a gasoline engine if well taken care of.

An inboard can have fresh water cooling.

The cooling system of an inboard can be plumbed to a 'bus heater', nice in cool weather.

Aluminum engines often have more corrosion problems than inboards.

A long outboard well causes significantly more drag when sailing than the shaft, strut and prop of most inboards. This is true even when the motor is tilted up.

The outboard has a few advantages though:

It is less expensive to purchase and install, though a well negates some of this advantage. It is pretty easy to install a small diesel engine and a well can take some labor to construct. Still the OB has the advantage.

Gasoline weighs less than Diesel. This somewhat negates the weight penalty of needing to carry more fuel due to the less efficient OB.

The outboard is lighter than a diesel inboard installation of comparable power. When looking at the inboard, don't forget to add in the weight of the transmission, exhaust system, shafting, strut and prop. Also, most MFG give 'dry weights' for both OB and Inboards. Don't forget to add all the liquids into your sums.

Maintenance is easier on the OB since you can easily take it to a mechanic.

Winter storage is easier with an OB if you live in cold climate since you could keep it in heated storage.

An outboard motor needs less air than a Diesel but this is pretty minor. Since both need air to run, the fact that the Diesel intake needs to be about 3/4" larger diameter is not significant.

The OB will heat up the interior of the boat less in hot weather than an inboard.

How can you optimize your motor well to avoid as much drag as possible? Extending the well through the transom would help reduce drag. Making the well as small as possible will reduce drag. If you can't fit these ideas into the boat, you are probably better off to install a plate or door on the bottom of the well that is fitted to your lower end. Here are some examples:

This boat has a small well that extends out the transom. Note the power head is always inside the transom but the prop and cavitation plate tilts into the transom slot.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/p51a082fb2069a0e790c58accd7f9a0d0/f5bbf8a8.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/p806f05399f9391afdb5046a423bcdeee/f5bbf8ac.jpg

In this next boat the outboard well is sealed around the edges with silicone sealant and has a suction bailer worked into it to expel water from the teltale exhaust.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/p3de865d6b5333ccb87c44919a2155c7b/f5bbf8b5.jpg

David Mancebo
Edited to correct spelling

[ 12-28-2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: bainbridgeisland ]

[JimD]

David, concerning an outboard motor for a traditional transom/skeg mounted rudder configuration, could not the motor be mounted in a well so that the prop ends up more or less where a typical inboard with the shaft running through the skeg would, so that the skeg is cut away to make room for the prop and the prop lays directly in front of the rudder?

[bainbridgeisland]

Originally posted by JimD:
David, concerning an outboard motor for a traditional transom/skeg mounted rudder configuration, could not the motor be mounted in a well so that the prop ends up more or less where a typical inboard with the shaft running through the skeg would, so that the skeg is cut away to make room for the prop and the prop lays directly in front of the rudder?Sure, you can do that.

You could use a fairing plug, flush with the bottom similar to the double ender above. Here is something from my sketchbook with that sort of installation:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid152/p2931b29405818012ee3d5fd8867dc3a5/f5ba74fb.jpg
This could be adapted to a motor sailer too. When sailing this setup has a more drag than an inboard because of the lower end in the water and the big prop. As mentioned earlier you can expect added corrosion since the lower end will always be immersed.

You could also install the engine in a long well so that it could tilt up. However, this would be much higher drag either when sailing or motoring. One option you may be able to incorporate is hinged doors on the bottom of the well. They could close off a good part of the well and improve performance somewhat. This is a little less convenient and a lot more complicated though. I have never designed such a system myself. Saw one once though.

I have seen a few systems that withdraw the engine vertically too. They had hinged doors on the bottom of the well. Awfully complicated though. Probably cheaper to install a good rebuilt inboard diesel.

[imported_Dutch]

David-

thank you for the reply. certainly gives me plenty to chew on

[JimD]

This is Wittholz Madam Tirza. I'm hoping the aft half of the cabin could be raised enough to get standing headroom as a small wheel house for inclement weather
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid152/p6d9c4f401c8a7c202c39c0501d4b56b5/f5afb45b.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid152/pa23cb925cf64678355d3f1dcae9df0d8/f5afb0ad.jpg

[JimD]

Or perhaps this, a plywood Hartley 24, 9 foot beam, comes with standing headroom as standard equipment

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid152/pb85563c4d385600db7395eae7aa5a096/f5aed37a.jpg

[whb]

Jim

How fast do you want to motor. Take a look at the Chewbacca site. There is a fellow that writes in their newsletter about his travels in exactly the waters you are talking about.

Jamie is a really nice guy with a very engaging way of writing.

http://www.chebacco.com/

Now I suspect a Chewbacca is much smaller than you are considering but the thing is that an efficient hull like a sailboat doesn't seem to need much of an outboard unless you are looking to go real fast.

Howard

[Hwyl]

Jim, a couple of notes on the pictures that you posted above. The catboat: I like this boat, though I do prefer the rig that they offer with the jib (is it called a Noank sloop?). I have to admit a fondness for dodgers I am British after all), I thik the catboat could be fitted with a gret dodger. Look arounf any marina where there are motor boat and you will see that "boat canvas" has come a long way since the days of "isinglass". Seems to me tha with this boat you could have a nice sailboat and be able to erect a canvas condo' when the weather calls for it.

The Hartley: I'm always suspect of a boat picture when the boat is heeled and the picture is from leeward. I think this boat has a lot of freeboard, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I have a fondness for Westerly Centaurs, but you are probably not going to get standing headroom and aestheticly pleasing designs in the same 24' package.

[JimD]

whb, I like the look of Chebacco a lot but I've had a gander around the website before and one thing I don't like about it is how light it is. I recall it is designed for no ballast, with some builders taking it upon themselves to add some because it sails so tenderly. Madam Tirza calls for 1,000 #s which seems reasonable and reassuring to me.

Hwyl, I think the dodger idea might be a good one. I would custom build it myself. I'm sending off for study plans for Madam Tirza. The sloop rig might give more options for handling such a beamy hull but I'd rather avoid a bowsprit which by the looks of it is might extend seven feet or so. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid152/p90b106917a49b740d726d68700f4081c/f5abfd14.jpg

I like the bermuda option as well.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid152/p9980b57872fe92cd1d5b8b7ab2c19b24/f5ac0516.jpg

I agree with you on the lines of the Hartley 24. I have study plans for the 28 foot version and aesthetically it looks not bad but on a boat 4 feet shorter it might be pushing the limits a little far.

[Mike Vogdes]

Although not a motorsailer, this is a really nice fuel miser motor boat being built by a very talented boatbuilder.
http://personal.riverusers.com/~emkay/puffwelcome.html
This project has been going on for a couple years now and it will give you a good idea of the scope involved in building a 28' boat.

[JimD]

Whereas this is the biggest boat I have built so far. Twenty eight feet would be a small step up :D

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid152/pe5da9bb5eea4326ac37ac4c5af7fcee1/f5ab18b2.jpg

[rbgarr]

This is an interesting motor sailer design:
http://www.williamfmies.com/core/listing/pl_boat_full_detail.jsp?slim=broker&boat_id=1166866&hosturl=williamfmiesy b&&ywo (http://www.williamfmies.com/core/listing/pl_boat_full_detail.jsp?slim=broker&boat_id=1166866&hosturl=williamfmiesyb &&ywo) =williamfmiesyb&&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1623&url=&hosturl=williamfmiesyb&&ywo=williamfmiesyb&

[ 01-06-2005, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]