Fast Daysail/Racing Classics

[Noah]

Ok, I'm looking for a fast classic to race on Wednesday nights in the local PHRF series.
I currently sail my Folkboat which is wonderful, but a bit slow in light wind.

I'm pretty open minded about what the perfect boat would be, but here are a few criteria:

Length should be between 22 and 40 ft, but if it is 40 it should be "small" I'm not looking for a huge boat.

I want a large cockpit that can hold 5-6 people. Cabin space isn't really necessary or wanted.

I would want to race with 3 people. Hopefully it won't have running backstays, but I will deal if it does.

I would like it to have a spinnaker of some sort. In a perfect world this would be retro fit to an Asymmetrical because they are very easy to use.

It probably doesn't need to have much in the way of auxiliary power.

It should be able to move in light wind. Heavy wind isn't too much of an issue for most of the races. Plus I always have my Folkboat to sail when it is cranking.

I want it to look nice.

Price is an issue. I'm happy to work on the boat all winter, but I want a boat that I can sail come spring. Probably no more than $10K hopefully less. I'm totally prepared to spring for new sails and hardware.

Boats that I like are the Sq meter boats like the 22's, 30's, and 15's. The 5 Square meter boats have a strange cockpit putting the helmsman apart from others.

I like the look and the sailing abilities of the Etchells 22. I really like sailing the Melges 24, but obviously I won't find a classic like that boat.

Your ideas are all welcome. I don't think that I want to build a boat right now...though that would be one option.

Noah

I should also add that is needs to be sexy. I want a boat that is a head turner.

[ 08-19-2002, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Noah ]

[mmd]

A Thunderbird class sloop comes to mind (other than commissioning a custom design, of course) - easy to build, lotsa others around so old rigs & sails are available, goes like stink, and carries the right number of self-propelled shifting ballast units.

[ 08-19-2002, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: mmd ]

[Noah]

Well, I was thinking something with a bit more grace. I'm sure that many people love the Thunderbird, but I'm not taken by the reverse shear and hard chine. If I was going to go that route I would probably end up in Fiberglass.

I will add one last criteria to the list:

SEX Appeal! This thing has to be sexy.

Thanks MMD

Noah

[Garrett Lowell]

Here come two words for you: Uffa Fox. http://www.uffafox.com/

[Wiley Baggins]

The Luders 16 (16' lwl) comes to mind, but I don't think it meets your cockpit/crew size requirements.

Luders 16 (http://www.l16.org/)

[A. Mason]

Al Mason designed "Manana" [a "The Rudder" how-to-build] as his interpretation of his beloved Swedish 5-metre "Diana," only with a single cockpit and small covered area. Al had hopes that "Manana" would become a one-design racing sloop but it never happened that way. There are a number of "Mananas" still around, the largest group used to be on the Ohio River. She's long [LOA:29'-3.5"/DWL: 19'-6"] and lean [Beam: 6'-4.75"].

[Noah]

Anita, thanks for the info on the "Manana" design. Are there any pictures of these boats? If you have some and want to email them to me I would be happy to post them.

Wiley, I like the look of the Luders 16, and will keep that one on the list.

Garrett, I would love to build one of Uffa's boats, but I'm not sure that I'm up to the task. I'm really looking to buy a pre-existing boat and either restore or just sail.

I should include the Dragon in my list of boats. I like the look of them, but I'm not sure how well they do in light air. Any thoughts on these?

Noah

[ahp]

First, not all 30 Square Meters have divided cockpits.

Second, why don't you get a big drifter or genoa for light weather condidtions. Class rules don't permit, but if you aren't racing, so what. The rig probably won't take a genoa in strong winds either. Make a rule for yourself. If you can't sheet it in without a winch, take it down.

Spinnakers are permited by the Folkboat rules.

[SBH]

Have you ever seen a Rhodes Evergreen? Wow. That's a real head turner, and a particularly fast racer in the conditions you described. A big cockpit, classic lines, plenty of canvass... 36' on deck, 26' at the waterline. I wish I had a photo. But we race against one so I can take some pictures if you're interested.

(We also race against some Dragons, and they do well in light air, but you can't fit that many people in them. Really nice boats though.)

sbh

[ 08-19-2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: SBH ]

[Garrett Lowell]

SBH, grab some pics next time, if you can. I've never seen one.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Evergreen:
http://www.inwa.net/endurance/lemolo.html

[Alan D. Hyde]

How about a Highlander, Noah?

Big sister to a Thistle.

Fast, and the early ones were cold-moulded out of beautiful wood--- painted outside and polyurethaned inside.

Here are some photos

http://www.sailhighlander.org/pictures/downwind.jpg

http://www.sailhighlander.org/pictures/97.jpg

http://www.sailhighlander.org/pictures/crede.jpg

The class website's at

www.sailhighlander.org (http://www.sailhighlander.org)

Enjoyable boats!

Alan

P.S. The cockpit has two NINE FOOT long seats (Port & Starboard), 42" apart! ROOMY!!!

[ 08-19-2002, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[bainbridgeisland]

Have you ever looked at a Knarr. They are 30' long, about $10,000 or less, very pretty and quite fast.

Another boat would be a International One Design. Very attractive and fast.

If you want more performance, look about for a Black Soo. Designed in the 50s, they are one of the early ULDBs. They would give a Melges 24 a run for the money in ideal conditions.

How about one of the large scows. Very, very few boats are as fast. Though you might not think of them as classics, the designs are much older than the Luders 16s and other boats we consider classics. They might cost too much though.

[Noah]

Thanks for the suggestions.

In no particular order:

I don't think that I could morally own a Knarr, seeing as though its biggest competitor is a Folkboat.

I want a keel boat, so the highlander is out. No hiking-out for my guests or me. Sitting on the rail is fine, but I don't think that hiking is good. My girlfriend wouldn't be into it...

I really like the look of the International One Design. It is a beautiful boat. That is defiantly on my list.

The Evergreen sure is pretty, but I don't know how I would find one for sale.

A Mason's Manana sure is a pretty boat. If I can find one I would definitely take it seriously...
Anita very graciously sent me two photos:
http://www.morebutter.com/stick/manana.jpg
http://www.morebutter.com/stick/mananaphoto.jpg

I have stayed away from the scows only because the new plastic ones are much faster than the old wooden ones. I want a boat that in her own right is fast against any other. Plus I get the opportunity to sail on a newer Melges C-scow now and again. That said, an A-scow would be pretty cool...

I should put a big Genoa on my Folkboat, and it will probably happen soon. As I stated before, I have added about 50 SQ ft of sail area to the main by using a fully battened, big roached Melges 24 mainsail. The problem is still that the boat has acres of wetted surface area, and under the PHRF rules there isn't much that you can do about it. In 15 Knots of breeze I do well, but below that it is rough on the spirits...

I would love a Square meter boat if one could be found for a reasonable price in reasonable shape. I will keep looking.

I think that the Black Soo is out only because it is a hard chined boat. I gotta have something with Curves. (Call me silly)

Thanks for all your thoughts, and this is a great learning experience for me. Any mention of a design is gladly encouraged.

Noah

[rbgarr]

I use my 1967 Shields in much the same way and conditions you describe. She's 30', good-looking, fast in light air, and easily handled by a crew of three. I've even got an assymetrical chute that I've used singlehanded. I don't have a PHRF rating for her, however, and wonder whether she could get one since there's no self-bailing cockpit. They are all fiberglass however. I bought mine with a trailer for $10k+ five years ago. See ROSALITA at www.sailingmatters.com/photogallery/photos3.htm (http://www.sailingmatters.com/photogallery/photos3.htm)

also see http://www.capecodshipbuilding.com (the current class builders) for associated webpages/links.

[True Love]

Noah,

I agree w/rbgarr, the Shields is a very sexy and fast boat. You might also consider the "R" class boats - there's one for sale in the most recent WoodenBoat. I also like the Uffa Fox Flying Fifteens, although you won't see many on the market over here in the US compared to some of the other classes (or compared to what you'd find in Europe and NZ and Aussieland).

Lastly, you might want to look at the Dark Harbor 17 class - those boats seem to be predominantly found in New England and Canada, which is in your backyard.

Lastly, there is a beautiful 22 Sq Meter called "Trident" who is for sale in Mich City, Indiana. She needs some work and I think the owner wants way too much money for her, but she is in much better shape than the one on ebay. If you come this way you should see her. Her owner lives part time in CA and part time here in the midwest. He will be back in Mich City in a couple of weeks and could show you the boat, otherwise, I think his brother could probably show her to you. If you want more info on her, let me know and I'll email the owner's name and phone number to you. I would buy her if I hadn't just bought a house and exhausted my savings. She is really a stunning girl.

[Wiley Baggins]

Wow, EVERGREEN looks better than she does in the book on Rhodes and his designs, and MANANA is new to me and equally spectacular.

One more hat you may want to add to the ring, and I'm surprised that I forgot about it, is the Starling Burgess designed ATLANTIC.

Atlantic class (http://atlanticclass.net/)

[johnw]

I notice on the Yacht World site there is a Winnano Senior for sail in Maine for $5,500. At that price it might need work, but it will get out of its own way.

Check it here.

http://www.yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_detail.jsp?checked_boats=1007386&currency=USD&units=Feet

[ 08-19-2002, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: johnw ]

[Jack C]

Noah,

I don't want to rain on your parade, but having some personal experience with this I figured I'd pass it on for what its worth.

PHRF doesn't take kindly to classic boats. It's not the rating itself but all the ancillary rules that make a boat eligible for a rating. Like a self-bailing cockpit. That will knock most classics out the door, including a bunch that have already been mentioned. Sq. Meters, "Regular" Meters, Evergreens (I've seen one up close and they are beautiful, beautiful, beautiful!), Knarrs, International One Designs, most Folkboats and most likely the Manana. Next item: lifelines. Most true classic boats don't have lifelines. Look at the original Pen Duick. No lifelines. Classics that have been retrofitted with these things look, well, stupid. Many, many years ago I raced on a 6 Meter that had a special PHRF rating where we were allowed to race in protected water, but a talk with a PHRF rating examiner last week confirmed that such exemptions are not done anymore.

Your best bet is to hook up with a one-design class that races squares, meters, IODs, and so forth. But as I discovered, if you want to race PHRF, then get yourself a plastic boat that meets all the rules. Or crew for someone who does. Everyone is always looking for crew.

Jack

[A. Mason]

Lifelines I don't know about but "Mañana" was designed with a self-bailing cockpit. - Anita

[Noah]

Thanks for the thoughts on the different designs. I'm not too worried about the PHRF rules, as they are somewhat flexible on the lake. Lots of Etchells 22's race, and they have neither lifelines, nor self-bailing cockpits. I'm not too worried about the regulations issue...

I do race weekly on a Melges 24, which is one of the faster boats out there. Lots of fun, and they fly. I would probably get one of them, but I would love to find a wooden boat instead.

Noah

[ahp]

The Museum of Yachting in Newport RI has two 30 Square Meters. One is in well kept sailing condition. The other is undergoing restoration and will probably be sold when that is complete. It is a Knud Reimers design.

I may be crazy, but, if you are of a mind to sell the Folkboat in a year or two, let me know.

[Jamie Hascall]

I just went to the pictures of "Lemolo" (the Evergreen) and happened to click on the next button. It led me to Roy Dunbars beautiful 35' Pacific Coast class "Irene". They're a pretty fine boat designed by Kettenberg. I don't know if there might be any in the east. http://www.inwa.net/endurance/irene.html

Check it out.
Jamie

[ 08-21-2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Jamie Hascall ]

[Ariel]

Noah, I'm not sure this is the type boat you are looking for, but it is a great one design and fun to sail. Here is the site: http://www.schurrsails.com/fish/
Enjoy!

[Garrett Lowell]

Noah, check this out.

http://www.yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_detail.jsp?checked_boats=9532 05&currency=USD&units=Feet (http://www.yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_detail.jsp?checked_boats=953205&currency=USD&units=Feet)

[WFK]

http://www.intdragon.org/

These boats are as classic as they come and I was fortunate enough to sail about one for 10 years. As far as PHRF goes I think you'll find that they're still very competetive.

Bill

[Noah]

I like the dragon's and still wish I had bought the one a found 2 years ago. At the time I didn't have the money, and I wasn't into racing so it didn't make sense. Now I kick myself. Oh well...

That one in washington looks pretty nice, but it is too far to tow, and they are asking a pretty penny.

The Fish class is interesting, but I'm ont sure I want a gaffer. (Don't kick me too hard) Plus they aren't quite what I'm looking for. A pretty boat, but not for me.

Please keep the ideas comming. I'm learning lots, and it is fun to look at all the boat porn.

Noah

[Alan D. Hyde]

It's a good thing you're not too hard to please, Noah. :D

Alan

[ 08-21-2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

<<Look at the original Pen Duick. No lifelines. >>

And look what happened to Tabarly a few years back on the last Pen Duick.... (for those not in the know: he didn't wear harnesses and fell overboard in somewhat rough conditions)

[plimsol]

Look seriously at a Universal Rule "R" Class boat. They are wickedly fast in light air and are sex on the water. The numbers dial in nicely too, better or equal to modern boats: 38 loa, 24 lwl, less than 10k gross and about 600 sq ft of sail. She will carry six easily.
Check out the web site r-boat.org.

[Noah]

Wow!!! Those R-boats sure are pretty. It would be fun to find one of those somewhere. I suppose I will keep looking. That would be quite a boat to sail...

I'm definitely smitten with them. Thanks for the link.

Noah

[rbgarr]

Hasn't there been a Luders 24 (38' oa, looks like a longer sleeker Luders 16) for sale in WB lately?? I seem to remember it was somewhere in NY.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Noah:
Wow!!! Those R-boats sure are pretty...I'm definitely smitten with them. Thanks for the link.John Alden & Co. (Boston) will sell you plans for an R-boat (or a Q-boat if you want something with standing headroom...

See my post in this thread Alden Indian (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001843) for more information.

[johnw]

You won't get an R boat for 10K. How about a 210? Fast, double-ended keelboat designed by Ray Hunt in the '40s or early '50s. Its dimentions are close to the Etchells 22. Wood ones seem to sell for under 4K. Check out the class site, which has ads for used boats.

http://www.210class.com/210broch.htm

And here's a nice picture:

http://www.210class.com/mckpic/McKee2000WW1.htm

[ 08-22-2002, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: johnw ]

[SBH]

ok, if you're thinking Etchells and R-boats, i have to add Yankees to your list. a Yankee might be as hard to find as an Evergreen, but you could get lucky. they're great for racing and daysailing...(yes, i'm horribly biased, but johnw likes them too, and as of tonight johnw is the national Blanchard JR champion, so that counts for something.) Yankees are 30' keelboats. see www.YankeeOneDesign.com (http://www.yankeeonedesign.com)

i didn't mention Yankees right away because you're talking about light air, and here's what i heard on the dock: an Evergreen has 1/2 again as much sail area as a Yankee, and an R-Boat has 1/3 again as much sail area as an Evergreen. (i do not stand by dock factoids.) but i do know our Yankee beats Lemolo about half the time, and Lemolo has beaten R-boats. And yes, R-boats tend to slaughter Yankees, but Yankee skippers are persistent buggers, and hope springs eternal.

http://www.3rdwave.net/wbfpics/sailing_y11.jpg

-sbh

[johnw]

Yankees might be easier to find on the east coast than Evergreens. Rhodes also designed some classes similar to the Evergreen for east coast clubs but I can't remember the names of them. (Deciduous? No that's not it.) There's a book of his designs if you want to check it out. Alden's Triangle class might fit the bill and there's one for sale on Yachword.com, but I think the guy wants more like 20K. Some gaffers are quite quick. The Dark Harbor 17 1/2 is said to be fast in light air, and at 26' it's in your size range. In the first meeting between Knarrs and Dark Harbor 17s, the Dark Harbor boats are said to have beaten the imports handily. The Northeast Harbor A class and the Camden Class are similar. The Watch Hill 15 (WL) at 25' is an 1898 Herreshoff design with a Marconi rig that has been built in glass as well as wood and has held up pretty well in terms of performance. But I still think in terms of value for money, the 210 fits the bill best.

And Sarah, I didn't know I was racing for the National Championship. Are you sure it wasn't the Intergallectics?

[SBH]

i stand corrected.

yes, it was indeed the InterGalactic Blanchard JR Championship. my mistake. i think you'll find the event covered in next month's Rudder magazine. there should be some splendid photos.

sbh

[Leigh]

Try a 6 meter class. A prettier boat would be hard to find and just about the right size.
I almost bought one built here in Sydney, but thought about it too long and someone else snapped her up. She needed a touch of work, but was heavily built. Very pretty lines, her name was Watharra. Maybe some of the other Sydney guys know where she is now?

[Ron Williamson]

In my experience with a 6-metre,they aren't really that fast,due to a giant "belly" below the water line,due,I assume, to the 6-mtre formula.When pressed they drag up a huge quarter-wave that could be surfed(No kidding).The one that I've sailed is a very pretty,very uncomfortable boat.The keyhole cockpit is about 5'deep with a small,raised bridge-deck for the helmsman.A 22-sq. would be better suited IMHO especially in light air.
have fun
R
PS that 6-M may be for sale

[Thad]

I am a Triangle fan but I wonder what your PHRF fleet's rules are and how she would rate. I didn't find one in Yachtworld but there is this recent cold-molded one http://www2.yachtworld.com/broker/br_listing_detail_handler.jsp?company=authenticyac htbrokerage&boat_id=60171&units=Feet&currency=CAD&listing_id=&page=broker&mls_true= Originally they had no watertight cockpits but I have no idea how this one is finished out. I restored an Atlantic class sloop years ago for a fellow who wanted it for PHRF. They finished well in races, lost on rating and were ruled out for cockpit, etc. I believe.

[Jack C]

Au contraire, Mr. Williamson!

Having sailed a number of 6 Meters, I'll say that they are pretty fast, despite the heavy displacement. I raced on one in a PHRF fleet, and in one long distance race we started 10 minutes after the ULDB fleet (Olson 30, J-29, Hobie 33, etc.) By the first windward mark we had passed all of them. The look on their faces was classic. Now granted, once you reach hull speed you won't go any faster. And each one is designed to excell in certain conditions (which we had when racing against the aforementioned ULDBs).

The cockpit design is based on the age of the boat and what was in vogue at the time. I agree that some of the split cockpits can be uncomfortable. Most of the moderns have one open cockpit to make things a bit easier.

I've seen 6 Meters move in just a whisper of wind. 22 Sqs, on the other hand, are a bit sluggish in light air and kick into their own above 10 knots.

Jack

[plimsol]

Given the choice between a 6m and and a R, in Noah's situation, I would take the R. Having sailed on both classes recently, K-57 & R-11 The R is going to be a much more pleasant vessel to sail. The 6m was flat out unpleasant, the crew has to stand the entire time, due to the depth of the cockpit. I have bad knees hence the bias.
An R will have more beam and a water tight cockpit as part of the design. It is more accomodating to the crew, deck space and a cockpit to sit in.
In terms of performance an R will do very well against a 6m in light air. R-11 regularly beat the 6m fleet in Southern California.
Both are great classes and I would not pass up a chance to aquire one for restoration.

[johnw]

No question, six meters are fast and R-boats are faster. Where you're going to find an R-boat in decentt condition for 10K, I couldn't guess. You might find an old six for that price. There are more of them around and most are newer. An R-boat would have about 100 square feet more sail than a six and probably close to the same displacement. Both are development classes, so speed varies widely between examples. I've raced aboard and against sixes in PHRF, so I know some fleets make exceptions to the rules when racing in protected waters. Just don't lord it over people when you start winning.

Here's a link to the Alden Triangle that's for sale. They added cold-moulding to the outside of it, so it's no boat for purists.

http://www.yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_detail.jsp?checked_boats=60171&currency=USD&units=Feet

[ 08-29-2002, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: johnw ]

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Ron Williamson:
In my experience with a 6-metre,they aren't really that fast,due to a giant "belly" below the water line,due,I assume, to the 6-mtre formula.When pressed they drag up a huge quarter-wave that could be surfed(No kidding).The one that I've sailed is a very pretty,very uncomfortable boat.What a six lacks in speed, she makes up for in pointing ability and tacking speed. Metre boats will outpoint just about anything out there.

I'm not sure I'd agree about 'uncomfortable', though. There is no lounging on a six (or place to lounge for that matter) once you're under way. It's the marine equivalent of driving a race car: stiff suspension, not much padding on the seats. low aspect ratio tires.

but there's lot of room to store beer (and keep it cold) in the deep bilges.

A 6m is not easily sailed with less than 4 people. It's something of a specialized racing machine and not much else. The usual complement is five:

1. Helmsman
2. Running backstay tender
3. Mainsheet trimmer
4. Jib trimmer
5. Foredeck/tailer/jack-of-all-trades

You could ditch the foredeck hand, but then you're hard put to fly a spinnaker and the mainsheet and jib trimmer would have to help each other when someone needed tailing.

The two-cockpit arrangement is designed around this crew.

The after keyhole cockpit carries the helmsman and the backstay trimmer -- the big oval in the keyhole lets the helmsman get down low on the lee side so he can see the sail trim on the jib in the slot. The backstay trimmer lives just forward of the helmsman in the skinny part of the keyhole.

The forward cockpit carries everybody else. The mainsheet trimmer lives at the after end of the forward cockpit (the big primary for the mainsheet is usually on the bridgedeck between the two cockpits.) The jib trimmer and foredeck hand/tailer live forward of the mainsheet trimmer. The foredeck guy also helps during a tack. His job is releasing the jib at the right point. A good tack shouldn't take more than about 30 seconds if there's any kind of wind.

A place for everything and everything in its place. I can't see how you could rearrange stuff so that you could sail shorthanded without completely re-rigging the boat.

Some drawbacks to sixes include:

1. they are lightly built lead mines, ~75-80% ballast ratio -- K-57 HECATE, a Camper & Nicholson six, weighs in at about 10000 pounds, 8000 of which is lead. As a result, the hull of a six is highly stressed. Broken frames are the norm for a wooden hulls.

2. If they are double diagonal, a "simple" hull repair (eg, replace broken inside plank, may mean removing every outside plank on that side of the boat. Not exactly designed for maintenance.

3. Six metres go home when the wind perks up to 20-25 knots or better.

Advantages, of course, include speed, or the illusion of. And grace.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, better than driving a six in 15 or 20 knots of wind. Sitting on the lee side of the keyhole, with the lee rail buried and the quarter wave curling by your ear, feels like you're going about a million miles an hour.

N.
--

[Noah]

This is getting good. Keep telling stories and painting pictures and I won't need the boat.

I saw the Alden Triangle, and it looks pretty nice. I'm not sure that it looks better than my Folkboat though, and probably isn't that much faster. Truth be told I'm in love with my Folkboat, and I'm not sure she will get replaced.

I love the look of the R-boats, and there is one for sale in the latest Wooden Boat. I'm guessing the price is well over $50,000 though. Sounds like it is in Bristol condition.

I don't really want a "two" cockpit boat. Part of the idea is to be able to have fun on it and socialize on occasion. My sailing is split in two categories. Sailing with friends on weekends (Where there is generally little wind) and sailing all week with real sailors. I enjoy both, and I want a boat that is good for both, but with the emphasis on going fast and doing well in races.

That said, I will definitely keep my eye open for a 6 Meter boat.

Thanks, and keep it going.

Noah

[johnw]

I think a Triangle is supposed to carry 408 sq. ft. of sail, which is about 150 more than a Folkboat. They are also supposed to weigh about 4500 lb, so the one we're looking at has had weight added, probably because of the cold moulding added outside the hull and the self-draining cockpit.

[Jack C]

The split cockpit doesn't make you feel isolated from the crew. You are all fairly close together. Mr. Carey has the crew positions down pat. And yes, it's hard to run the boat with a spinnaker with 4 people, although I've had to do it. The older boats are simpler (and those low profile, fat winches are wonderful, much better than modern ones) so you could run them with fewer people. But the more modern, the more strings, the more physically demanding.

The most modern boat I crewed on for a season was Pacemaker, built in 1969 and is still actively raced in Puget Sound. It is cold molded ply over oak frames, built like a tank. It had a hydraulic forestay that we cranked up to 2000 lbs. of tension on a regular basis. We didn't go home when the wind piped up. No, sir. Our motto was "We never reef." Which was true since our genoa inventory was all the same size, just cut differently. On one long PHRF race, the wind cranked up to 25 knots, and we flew our bullet-proof mylar chicken chute. At one point I had to take a leak, so I walked back to the transom, which is about 2 ft. wide, no lifelines, and did my business while hanging on to the backstay. The boat felt like a train. Behind us all the other boats were rolling wildly, broaching, one so bad he bent the mast 30 degrees. We were like, "Hand me another beer, dude!" Going back to windward we were like a half-tide rock. But no matter. We never reefed!

The older boats are a bit more timid about strong winds, depending on the owners. Lolly (or Lully depending on the source) is an older boat that did poorly until the wind was 15 kn. Then she was very competitive. One time in such conditions the crew heard a tremendous wood wrenching noise and the boat immediately starting taking on water. She got back to the dock safely, and upon investigating found that the shrouds ended in padeyes at the deck (normally the shrouds are routed back to the maststep at the keel). So the enormous forces of the rig were taken by the upper planking and frames. After 50 years they decided to let go. The yard bill for repair and refit was $6000.

Just another sea story about 6s.

Jack

[Old_Curmudgeon]

I owned a Triangle. It had the cut-down boom shown on the one for sale; the originals had runners and an overhanging boom. The Triangle is a wonderful boat. Last week I heard a talk by Joseph Garland, the nautical historian, and he couldn't stop talking about his Triangle. When I was sailing mine, many people would come by and tell me that they remembered sailing number this and such--tremendous affection and loyalty. She is especially good it light air--ghosts by much bigger boats. That being said, with her heavy keel and short waterline (18 1/2), she hobby horses a bit in steep waves (i.e. OB wakes), although she has the momentum to go through them. I must add that I was not taken with the boat listed for sale--it looks plasticized. I met a guy who was interested in getting a few people togther to have several new cold-molded hulls built. Having sold my Triangle 3 years ago, that's soundling like a better and better idea.

[mark ward]

I'm going to put my vote in for the triangle as well, with thad and old-curmuj. Definitely the prettiest girl on the water. And yes the one for sale on yachtworld was pretty bastardized. She was prettied up for "Domestic Disturbance" with John Travolta, what a shame.

[johnw]

Yes, and after they did all that, the film bombed. Noah, have you considered just putting a bigger rig on your Folkboat? It would take her out of class, but she might be better suited to your conditions.

[ 09-17-2002, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: johnw ]

[Carlsboats]

Nobody has mentioned the Atlantics. Old design, yes,but still quite a boat at about 32'. Good, newer ones are not cheap, as the class is still raced at several locations, but if you can find an older, wooden Atlantic the cost would be within reason. Do they go? They do if you know how to make a big main/small jib rig work for you. Like a Star, the Atlantic makes a master sail trimmer out of you -- or you come in last.
I don't know about the IOD's. The ones I see today (there are several in CT. where I winter my own boat) are expensive to own and keep -- indoor storage and all that stuff. But I raced on an IOD years ago, and they are indeed great boat, and definitely beautiful.

[mmd]

Since this thread has re-surfaced, allow me to amend my previous faux-pas in the elegant classic design prospect derby by drawing your cultivated eye to the sweet little class sailer designed by William Roue, the Bluenose Class sloop.

LOA - 23'-5"
LWL - 16'-0"
B - 6'-3"
d - 3'-8"
displ - 2,050 lbs
ballast - 750 lbs
sail area (w/o spinnaker) 218 sq. ft.

http://www.stevensboatworks.com/img/bluenose.jpg

http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/flinn/bluenose/sloop/images/room-for-six.jpg

Check out the class website at http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/flinn/bluenose/sloop/sloop.html

[Noah]

Yeah, I'm glad that this came back to the top as well. There are lots of great ideas here, and many boats that I lust after. The Alden Triangle is on my list.

MMD I really like the Bluenose design, and they have captured my eye for awhile now.

Another option is to pay to have the serious work done on my Folkboat, and get a larger genoa, a reacher, and a asym spinnaker and go sailing in all weather reasonably quickly.

The last option is one you guys won't like, but may make me a much better sailor. I have a line on a used Melges 24 with a bunch of very good sails in great condition. I have sailed lots of hours on a Melges, and it is one of the better sailing boats ever designed! They go like hell in light wind, and they go like hell in heavy wind. It has a huge cockpit, not too many ropes to pull, and it is a great racing boat. Short of a dinghy I don't know of a better way to learn good sailing tactics and sail trim. You can feel everything that you do with the Melges, but you are still sailing a 24ft Keel boat. Plus you can put up the chute and go really fast downwind. We have hit between 14 and 18 knots...

I'm trying to think of a way not to go plastic. I hate plastic boats, and I own 4 woodenboats. I also really want to go fast, and I'm a monohull sailor.

I'm want to become a better sailor and learn how to race. Being rail meat on someone else's boat just doesn't cut it.

Keep the ideas coming, and hopefully I will find a classic that I can afford.

Noah

[mmd]

Noah, I don't suppose that you want to see this, but... check out the Bluenose Class for sale here:

http://www.oceanyachtsales.com/broker/br_listing_detail_handler.jsp?company=oceanyachtsa les&boat_id=1024186&units=Feet&currency=&listing_id=&page=broker&mls_true=

[Ron Williamson]

Hey I missed a bunch of this.
The six (Johan of Rhu,ca 1938)that I sailed was saved from a chainsaw date by my brother-in-law Mark(super competitive sailing nut).He scavenged his rig from a dead 1/2 tonner or something,and bought used sails from some of those guys in Seattle,which may have something to do with the performance.The two of us sailed it,but we never attempted a race(I'm too lackadaisical,and his family will no longer crew with him).
A self-bailing cockpit would be nice if you forgot to check the weather and put up the big jib instead of the blade.Roaring along,rail down,ear to the water,is fanastic,until you start taking waves into the cockpit.
We figured that my boy,Andrew,was a sailor,when at two,he fell asleep on the sail bags,while periodically being doused by waves coming over the high side.
R

[Jan McAleer]

Might as well throw out another possibility --- although I'm a tad biased. How about Ravens? 24 feet, planing hull, large cockpit, spinnaker, etc. There was one for sale in the last issue of Wooden Boat, down in the DC area. They're also relatively easy to trailer.

[tprice]

Old thread but Let me endorse the 210 class. We have bought 8 of these and have a great little fleet in Md. Average purchase price was less than $5,000 and there are several on the 210 class site (www.210class.org (http://www.210class.org)) for sale. Wood and glass - they both compete equally (in our fleet). A PHRF rating of 182 I think. They sail really well and being double ended are unique and rather pretty in their own way. We recommend that you sail with a blade jib as the big genoa is a nuisance (though slightly faster). Put an asymmetrical spinnaker, tacked to the stem (3' ahead of the forestay) on and you'll easily sail it Doublehanded.

[obscured by clouds]

No one has mentioned a Soling

27', big cockpit, generally 3 man, and can compete reasonably well in general handicap or ISAF sportsboat [or it could 5 years ago when I had one] should be reasonably common - mine was 1972 vintage - I detuned the rig so I only had around 20 strings to pull rather than the 40 odd it came with :D.

it was a cheap boat to buy and run, and the layup was substantial. When the deck finally gave way, I stripped it back, built on a strip coachroof and a self draining cockpit and used her as a pocket cruiser. taking her out of class improved the handicap too ;). Sold her last year and am still sad she's gone.

http://premium1.uploadit.org/swordie//scan0001eb.jpg

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/%5BURL=http://www.uploadit.org%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://premium1.uploadit.org/swordie//scan0001eb.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D

[frank pedersen]

I suggest you check out the New England PHRF website (www.phrfne.org) for ratings on different designs. It will give you a good data base for judgments about relative speed. The 5.5 meter class might be a good compromise. There were some great boats built when it was an Olympic class and they have almost as good a rating as pre-WW2 6's. Their displacement is slightly more than half that of a 6-meter, so it really is a lot smaller boat. Back to New England PHRF; they post ratings on boats you might not expect: A Dragon has a rating of 216, which is not fast by modern standards; a Shields is rated at 165, and a 210 at 171. WindSprite (www.windspriteyachts.com) has a provisional rating of 162. Racing in very light air, she won the small Spirit of Tradition division in the 2008 Eggemoggin Reach Regatta by a margin of 36 minutes (boat-for-boat).

[Daniel Noyes]

Wow Frank! 36 minutes is alot... thats a practically a horrizon job in strong wind, how much distance was between you and the next boat in the light air? you must have placed pretty well compared to the big SOT boats.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

[frank pedersen]

Hi Dan, I wanted to follow up on one of our previous conversations, but it got lost as time passed. Well, truth be known, the distance was not that remarkable because the wind was so light and there was a severe foul tide. But the time differential was real, so I mention it immodestly. I read in a design book (Larsson & Eliasson, I think) that in light air basically all that matters is a boat's sail area/wetted surface ratio, which corresponds closely to SA/D. Differences in LWL are less important because boats are not even approaching the limits imposed by waterline length. Getting back to the ERR, it would be difficult to compare times for the large and small SOT boats because they started at different times (maybe 40 minutes apart, but I am not sure) and sailing conditions varied a great deal.

[mj_lover]

realizing the thread is 6 year out of date, how about a dutch design, regenboog?, she's a 26 footer (8m)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_c-_JhRAgdlg/SKrgCpqdl8I/AAAAAAAAKGc/amP2UJ1_Kys/DSC03790_R_Wim%20Haze.jpg

[Ben Fuller]

I am glad this resurfaced. There was a Raven down at Mystic which had a keel added (predating the Melges) and enough of a cuddy to let it run phrf. It generally hammered the opposition J24s similarly sized Evelyns etc. If you can find one..... its the ancestor of the Melges et al. And some were built in wood.

[rbgarr]

Only twenty feet long, but I understand Sidney Herreshoff's Gauntlet design is pretty fast for the size. Anyone sailed one?

http://www.capecodshipbuilding.com/site/newusedboats/gauntlet.htm

[Salty Sailor]

There are many good suggestions,
I like the long toothpicks myself for light wind racing.
I guess its what you can find for sale.
As far as a 30sq or 22sq you would be hardpressed to find one for10,000$
However if you want a project, dig around and you might find one in your budget.

Here is a link to the US Skerry site http://www.squareskerryyachts.net/30m/index.html
Have a poke around in the forum and thier boat list. There are a few boats in there lists that went missing or they lost track of over the years. Send the Web site moderator an email he can point you in the right direction for boats worth searching nearby.
They are more than likley not too far from there last know location. You could have some fun going on a treasure hunt..
Also go for a sail all around the bays in your area. Look for a neglected boat you like. Leave a note onboard or seek out the owner.