How much faster is a sliding seat row boat?

[hoss]

I finished my John Welsford Mollyhawk late in the fall and had the chance to row it about 10 times. I like it and it rows well, but I have to change the seat. While I'm at it I thought about putting in a sliding seat. I row on Lake Huron's big water which can get rough. I tend to row for 2 to 3 hours at a time. How much faster would I find a sliding seat is it worth the trouble? Thanks for the help>

[imported_Steven Bauer]

What's your hurry?

Steven

[Carlsboats]

Faster? You bet. Better? Maybe not. Sliding seat
brings into play different muscle groups (When I rowed on the MIT crew, at the end of the race it was my legs that were killing me; on an
Adirondack guideboat, it's the arms and shoulders that give out first). For rough water use, fixed seat may be easier to keep stable. To find out what's best for you, suggest you borrow a sliding seat rig and mess around with it for a while. Sliders are not for everyone and everywhere.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I paddle much more than I row but the mechanics of the sliding seat suggest to me that it's intended to bring the legs into play to help drive the oars. Since the leg muscles are the largest in the body the improvement in delivered power should be obvious.
Rowing is an athletic activity and the amount of improvement depends a lot on how much your body can tolerate. You will be using your entire body and the cardio-pulmanary load may be more than your system can tolerate right off.
What you're after is more speed without taking your heart rate into the stratosphere. That comes with regular training. It wouldn't hurt to wear a heart rate monitor when you trying to go fast.
Sorry to get so far off topic but I was a marathoner around the age of 50 and never forgot what it took to run hard for 3½ hours.
Charlie

[Ian McColgin]

For very efficient full exercise recreational rowing, use the wrinkle that's banned from competative rowing - sliding outrigger. Your weight stays in one place and the power of your leg and torso muscles are much more efficiently delivered to the oar.

Sliding seats are to fixed seat like jets are to props. The sliding outrigger is more like a rocket with afterburner.

There's an outfit in Wareham, MA who makes them if you google and explore the rowing sites.

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

Having done two Great River Races on the Thames (fixed seat traditional boat "pulls" of 26.5 miles) plus having paddled a dug-out canoe through the Panama Canal in the Ocean to Ocean race, I can point to one definite advantage of sliding seats - the avoidance of what is colloqially known on this side of the Pond as "skiffers arse" gained from rowing things like this long distances...Dittons skiffs (http://www.dittons.org.uk/imagestour/skiffs.jpg)

http://www.marlowtownregatta.org.uk/Regatta_Day/Thames_Watermen/ThamesCutter1.jpg

[Ian McColgin]

Stitch some leather to the seat of your shorts and lube 'em up with tallow.

Kinky.

[JimConlin]

The choice between sliding-seat and sliding-rigger should consider the length of the boat. For sliding-seat use, 17-18' is about as short as you want to go. For shorter boats, the variations in trim caused by the movement of the operator are too extreme. I very much like the Piantedosi drop-in rig.

[Figment]

Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
Stitch some leather to the seat of your shorts and lube 'em up with tallow.

Kinky.And this is why we love Ian so.

:D

[Paul Scheuer]

I believe there's some historical basis for the greased pants idea. Hoss, you might want to try it before you commit to a major modifiction. You may find that you'll need to go to longer oars. With the extra leverage you may end up spinning like a hummingbird with your present oars.

[DougWilde]

I use to row (and sell) Alden rec boats in Hawaii. Rowed off Kona and Waikiki, at times when small craft warnings were flying. Under such conditions the trim of the boat changing due to your body moving back and forth is lost in the noise (all the pitching your boat is doing because of the waves).
More than once the boat would drop out from beneath me in the midst of a drive and I'd find myself standing in the straps! That said, I never felt endangered in those boats. Okay once I did when caught sliding down the face of a breaking wave. Just dug the oars in and let the wave pass under me. Then headed for deeper water!

I'd look for ruggedness in design, whether sliding seat or sliding riggers. The Oarmaster at that time was one piece, held in place with a couple spring clips. One time I was barreling out a narrow channel and started to stray when WHAM!, caught a piling with the outer end of the outrigger. I go flying against the forward coaming and the Oarmaster popped out of the clips, but otherwise was undamaged...not even bent or twisted. If you are a rec-rower you'll be running into stuff.

Just one man's experience.

Doug Wilde

[hoss]

Thanks for the ideas. Wow I thought I was the only one that had the problem with the rowers butt. I thought it was because of the way I row, I tend to lay way back on my stoke. I ride a bike long distances and thought I had a tuff butt. The Mollyhawk is about 17.5 feet long and I was planning on building some new oars anyway. One of the reasons I am considering a sliding seat is I feel the oars I now are just too short for the boat and me. (they are a little longer then the formula found on the Shaw and Tenny site) I am big and tall and pretty strong and just fell that I could pull a much longer oar. I would like to make my own sliding seat if I do put one in I have acess to a Mig and plasma cutter (can't weld aluminum how ever) any thoughts as to where I could find plans? Thanks Ted

[nevrdun]

winters can get long here in Ontario so I look for boaty stuff to do indoors. Checked out the boatmaster at the rowing club one day and he had a locker full of busted seats and runners and gave me the makings for my 15' Muskoka skiff. Had as much fun fixing and retro-fitting as rowing it.

[Ian McColgin]

True, I was not kidding. Did the leather seat and grease bit for a long rowing camp out as a kid and was the only one that did not have bleeding blistered buttocks.

It is not a great idea to keep the slicked shorts too close when ashore for the night in bear country.

[Thad Van Gilder]

My brother, Greg, races lifeguard boats for the upper township beach patrol in Strathmere, NJ. They ALWAYS lube the seat of their shorts with KY Jelly before a race

-Thad
S/V IVY

[hoss]

Nevrdun is your rowing club in Southern Ontario? Maybe the rowing master would like to get rid of some more brocken stuff.
On the topic of rowing butt I'm about to give up a secret know only to a enlightened cyclist. "Bag Balm" (I'm not making up the name, and no it has nothing to do with the human males anatomy) It was developed to smooth the udders of dairy cattle, it can be found in farm supply or feed stores at less then $10.00 a can. The stuff is great.
Once on a week long cycle tour I developed a huge wear spot. I road into a feed store in rural Ontario and bought a can and then asked to use the washroom. I came out with the open can in my hand. The look on the guy behind the counters face was the high point of the tour.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by hoss:
I came out with the open can in my hand. The look on the guy behind the counters face was the high point of the tour.:D :D :D

[nevrdun]

I know something about long bicycle tours and balming the bag. Did some 10 speed road-racing and century-runs way back in that other century.
If you look closely at the skiff pic with my cobbled 'sliding rowing seat' mounted on a seat, check the foot stretchers, if they look like racing toe clips it's because they are!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid153/p54e18cf394637cd40b08299c507daff4/f5922466.jpg

[Tim B]

Glen-L has some plans for making your own drop in sliding seat. It is similar in appearance to the Oarmaster units. I have only seen it in pictures though. No idea about how difficult it is to make or what the cost difference would be. Search the Glen-L sight for rowing craft. They have plans for a 17 ft sliding seat skulling boat. The seat plans are in a link.

[rbgarr]

Then there's this alternative!

http://www.frontrower.com

[Ben Fuller]

I note the Mollyhawk has 4' of beam. You should be looking at at least 8 footers. I have found the S&T formula usually about 6" short for serious rowing.

On rowers butt, you'll note the cutout for your tail bone. This is achieved in fixed seat boats by having a relatively narrow seat, narrow enough so that the tailbone hangs over the forward edge. Look at, for example, the Norwegian boats. If you can set your boat up so that your butt hangs over the forward edge of the seat a little and you get a thin pad of ensolite, sheepskin etc. you have most of the battle won.

Mollyhawk seems long enough to take advantage of leg power. I have rigged the seating box of my 15 foot ducker to slide. By the knot meter the boat is no faster as I can easily get to hull speed the old fashioned way. But into a head wind the additional power can really be felt.

Ben Fuller
Cushing Me

[adampet]

Just for a FYI, I got a new Time, Speed, and distance calculator from our local "Swap Shop" the other day. In learning how to use it I took the record time for the Blackburn Challenge (around 2:20) versus my own best (4:20). The record was a double sliding seat Kingfisher. They averaged 9.8 knots for 24 miles. My Gloucester Gull averaged 5.5 knots. Of course the boats are so different I'm not sure what conclusion to draw
It would be an interesting exercise to try a course twice in the same boat, once with a fixed seat and once with a sliding seat.

[JimConlin]

Another way to analyze the original question:
With a sliding seat, i'd guess that the amount of horsepower delivered to the oars is at least 2x that of a fixed seat. Physiologists can refine this with considerations of aerobic capacity and nutrient uptake in long events.
If the power is 2x (or whatever) the effect on speed is a question for the naval architects. If the hull is near hull speed with a fixed seat and hasn't the shape to plane, then the increase in speed will be small. If the hull is long, fine and clean, you'll get more. What's the formula for frictional drag?

[Tom Robb]

As I understand an explaination patiently given me once, once you get to hull speed more power is useless.
Look at racing singles. Very narrow and absurdly long - what? 21" beam x 27' or 28'loa? One may assume thet they have, at least nearly, optomized the hulls.
The slider will give you a more complete workout, but don't look for much of an increase in sped.

[rbgarr]

The real advantage of using a sliding seat is that you can use the larger muscle groups of the legs and buttocks more effectively, thus making it easier to row as fast (or faster) for a longer time, more comfortably.

The most extreme rowing singles have a beam of 12" or narrower. :eek:

[Paulyboy]

Couple o' things to think on- can you get the seats in different widths? We don't all have the same size butts. Also, you can modify a nsliding seat quite cheaply and install threaded lockdown knobs so you can "freeze" the location of the seat at any point in it's travel

[imported_Dutch]

why do you need a sliding seat?

why not strip down and using a tub of lard slide on your own seat?

[Swaddo]

I've rowed boats with fixed seat, sliding seats, and even a surf boat (dunno what they are called in the US) which has a solid glass seat.

http://www.idp.com/nl/news/sport_surf_boat.gif

To row the surf boat you do pretty much what Dutch suggested (using water instead of lard). Simply pull your swimmers into your butt crack and wet the seat with a sponge as you go. If you forget to wet it down, the temp around your cheeks starts to rise as a gentle reminder ;) . They dont use tracks as they would shred your behind.

I would say that all other things being equal, the sliding seat is the better option. your stoke is considerably longer and thus more efficient, and you are forced to row with your legs, not with your shoulders and lower back. Longer and fewer strokes and larger muscles used make it far more pleasurable. You would probably get an increase in hull speed due to the better power delevery but i doubt that it would be significant. The main difference is that you can row all day with a slide, whereas I feel shattered after rowing 100m (oops 330 feet?) with a fixed seat.

Note that if you choose the 'lard' option you need to be very careful about splinters. :eek:

Cheers
Blake

[ 01-10-2005, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Swaddo ]

[garland reese]

Ian is right..........sliding rigger. In short boats, you eliminate the porposing effect of a sliding seat, and they truly are superior in terms of speed potential, to a sliding seat rig.
Garland