My Dream Boat

[Paul Pless]

Just speculation:

I would love to be able to sail and fish the world. I need an appropriate boat. Please feel free to make suggestions with the following in mind. It should be of traditional design and construction utilizing white oak, long needle pine, cypress, and black locust. Workboat heritage and aestehtics are perfectly acceptable to me. Light draft is appealing, but not at the expense of seakeeping ability. It should be a comfortable home afloat for two people for extended periods of time (monthes). High and low lattitude sailing is planned. Length between 36 and 42 feet, the shorter the better. Must be able to store, on deck, a 12 to 14 foot outboard powered launch rigged and ready to fish. Must also have ample storage space for fishing rods and tackle. The ability to troll or bottom fish from the 'mother ship' is to be assumed.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions,
Paul

[L.W. Baxter]

I've never seen a sailboat in the size range you describe that could carry an outboard launch of the size you describe. At least not without looking absurd. Maybe in a multi-hull?

I like the William Garden 32' gaff cutter for sailing and fishing. Just based on lines drawings, never having seen one, but it looks right for the job. 10'6" beam and 5'8" draft. If you could do with a smaller outboard launch, like maybe a 9' punt or jon-boat, it could be stored transversely behind the pilothouse, bottom up so you could walk over it to get to the rear cockpit. It's in 100 Boat Designs from WB.

I'll be watching this thread carefully. I have very similar daydreams!

[jwaldin]

You said it right. You're dreamin man! I love the part about the "mother ship".

[Paul Pless]

Got to have the launch. I enjoy all types of fishing but especially light tackle, inshore. The launch is really a fishing skiff, it has to be large and stable enough for two people to fish from.

[Rancocas]

You have 3 choices that I can think of.
1.You are going to need a much larger "mother ship". In which case you would probably need to hire a crew to help sail it.
2.You will just have to settle for "coasting" and towing your fishing launch. From Alabama you could follow the coast up to Labrador or down to Patagonia, and also maybe island hop through the Caribbean. There are some dangerous waters along parts of the Caribbean Coast. Pirates still exist in some areas.
3.Maybe you could use an inflatable, such as a Zodiac, as your fishing boat.

Oh, one more; 4.Forget a sailing boat and get a trawler, sea-going tugboat, or something on that order which can hoist a launch of that size onto its deck. Got big $$$ for the fuel prices?

[whb]

I second the idea of a Zodiac. A buddy of mine has a 12' Metzler that he has done a fair bit of ocean salmon fishing from with 2 or 3 people in the boat.

Howard

[bukuboy]

Give a holler to George Buehler, he'll fix ya up with somethin' good that'll make ya happy

[Venchka]

The story of a real couple on a real 42' sailbot.

Cruising/Living on 42' (http://www.worldvoyagers.com/)

Do you really need to take an inland style fishing skiff with you? Besides the inflatable suggestion, there are any numer of 9'-11' prams and/or tenders that could easlily carry two.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Paul Pless:
...It should be of traditional design and construction utilizing white oak, long needle pine, cypress, and black locust.

PaulCedar and spruce too.

[Paul Pless]

Venchka,

That's a great website, should be inspiring to all dreamers that it can actually be done. I have available on my land and land owned by relatives the listed wood species, alas no spruce or cedar.

Currently I own three boats and have owned others in the past. My most used and favorite fishing boat is a 16' aluminum jon boat powered by a 50 horsepower Yamaha Jet Outboard. My thoughts on the launch would be a minimum 12' aluminum boat with a 42" bottom and 7 degrees of deadrise (the maximum vee that works well with a jet intake). Yamaha makes a 28 horsepower jet that would be ideal for planning a boat this size into shallow water. In my experience, this is the smallest boat that gives enough stability to comfortably cast from. I estimate the all up weight of such a boat to be approximately 400 lbs.

Using my 16' jet boat, I have camp cruised hundreds of miles of the rivers here in Alabama. This would be my goal while travelling around the world: Extended voyages up rivers into wild areas.

One boat I have found that catches my eye as being workable is William Garden's Sequin (page 78 of Yacht Designs II). Could a launch be stored on the poop of such a boat? Could the poop be lowered to restore the proper appearance when the launch is on deck? this would also lower windage. I do not have a scanner, otherwise I would post a picture.

Paul

[TimH]

WOW........

[L.W. Baxter]

Originally posted by Paul Pless:
Using my 16' jet boat, I have camp cruised hundreds of miles of the rivers here in Alabama. This would be my goal while travelling around the world: Extended voyages up rivers into wild areas.
Paul, what you need is a canoe and a couple paddles! :cool:

[TimH]

He needs a jon boat with a big gas tank. and a big flag

[TimothyB]

I saw this post and it got me thinking (always a bad sign) smile.gif

You have a lot of options here, and I do believe that you will have to talk to a designer directly to get something that will do what you ask.

It came to my mind that Phil Bolger has already designed a boat like this, in plywood though, called the Double Eagle. This is a sharpie hulled catamaran with a yawl boat stored on its back deck and for propulsion.

I feel certain that such an arrangement could be made for a non catamaran, as I have seen a 50 foot sharpie design by him with a tilting back deck to accomodate a larger skiff on a sharpie as well.

I am sure he could design something for you within your parameters, though you may have to compromise on a few of your secondary parameters if price becomes an issue.

All that being said... basically you need something with a center cockpit, room for a launch on a back deck and sails that can handle a moderate blow. I didn't see extended blue water on your requirements list, so we'll skip that 10s of thousands of dollars that would cost smile.gif

Send Phil a fax and give your requirements, and say you heard about:

Double Eagle (http://www.thegreatsea.homestead.com/), a catamaran with yawl boat and
Tandem, a 50 foot sharpie with a skiff on a tiltable back deck.

Oh, and don't let the naysayers get you down. Hee

;)

Good luck and keep dreaming!!

--T

Phil Bolger and Friends
fax (978) 282-1349
P.O. Box 1209,
66 Atlantic Street
Gloucester, MA 01930

[ 12-08-2003, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: TimothyB ]

[Paul Pless]

TimothyB,

Thanks for the suggestions and comments. I do agree that this is a boat that needs to be custom designed. I am just asking for some practical suggestions from the forum as a starting point. Bolger was one of the first designers to come to mind. However, as innovative and practical as his designs can be they are often not attractive to me. This is not always the case, I am really fond of some of his boats. Having said that, I would like to see a plan or photo of Tandem.

As far as my initial parameters, the length maximum would be the easisest for me to relax. I would like for the boat to be kept small enough that it could be handled by a crew of two, sometimes four. Also maintenance costs would be less with a smaller boat.

I have no great desire to blue water cruise. The vast majority of the time the boat would be used for coastal cruising. However, I did mention ' sail and fish the world', so at some point it will have to cross oceans.

Cost at this point is not an issue. I can easily forsee investing the equivalent amount of money that would purchase a comfortable vacation home. This boat design has enough compromises already; so that it should not be further burdened by attempting to lowball the price of the boat.

I look forward to continued suggestions and comments.

Thanks,
Paul

[TimothyB]

Paul,

Phil can design anything you want, and make it aesthetically appealing to you as well. Remember, he designed the Rose, and many, many other excellent boats that do not have the 'box' style he has used for his smaller boats for the past 30 years or so.

He started designing that way because he realized an average joe could afford to build them, in a reasonable amount of time, and heck why couldn't we use sharpies like that? If you really want to get a dose of his genius and depth of knowledge, get 103 sailing rigs and Boats with an Open Mind.

Anyhoo, don't sweat the prettiness. He can make it pretty for yah if you like. If you want a V bottom, swoopy sides, a smile for a sheer line, he can do that too. He'll remind you, of course, that those things will cost more money and more time than if you didn't have them, but he can do them no problem.

People forget, PB has been designing boats for a really long time, and has made his bones a LONG time ago. Noone is unimpeachable, but PB is in the same class as Garden and other greats as far as I am concerned.

So, as I mentioned, he already has designed boats like what you need. It would be easier for him to accomodate you I think than many of the other designers. He has a more workboaty mentality as well, and is very easy to get along with.

And also, based on your description, I would seriously consider his Double Eagle design, or something similiar. Having a 14' boat on board a 40 foor boat is REALLY hard unless you have that center deck of a multihull, and since you will be coasting most of the time, this design would be perfect for your needs, given its thin water capability, cargo carrying capability and open space. You'd have a lovely living/dining room, galley, master suite and guest suite, etc oif you built it yachty instead of as a charter vessel, and you can put whatever rig you like on her.

Good luck and fair winds,

--T

[ 12-08-2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: TimothyB ]

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

For me I have allready figured out my perfect dream boat

http://www.boatdesigns.com/cgi-bin/store/web_store.cgi?page=allegra24.html&&cart_id=8396892_25507

Now I just have to start it LOL smile.gif

[Meerkat]

You can get a hull for ~$12,000 Joe ;)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

C :cool: :cool: L can I borrow $12,020 I would like to buy ya a case of beer the thank you for the long term loan :D

[Venchka]

Paul,

Given your woodlot contents, this is me: :D with NV.

I'm not that far away and if we both aren't too old when you have leftovers of the pine and black locust keep me in mind for the sale of some of your lumber. Heck, I could bring some nice "sinker" cypress to you. Unless you have that also in which case I am Double Green with NV.

Good luck.

[TomMcKinney]

Hope you get to build your dream boat.

I'd like to have a similar one myself one day, fo much the same reason I love fishing and sailing. I think the issue is not the boat hull, but the rig-- if the deck is built with the skiff in mind, you can hide it, or sink it into the hull, you just need room between the mast and the end of the boat.

With that in mind, I'd think about a junk rigged schonner- see bruce robert spray 40 pilot house version- one could fit a 14ft skiff between the masts in the center of the boat in a recessed cargo hold like area- would'nt even mess up the lines.
Tom

[Paul Pless]

Venchka and TomMcKinney,

Tom, you first, I agree the choice of rig is as or more important than the hull when trying to store something 14 foot long on deck. A cat yawl rig would give you amazing amounts of room between the masts, yet I find this rig unappealing/scary on a boat 40 foot long. I, like most people around here, love schooners, and would like to try to make one work out for me. As far as hull design goes, a clean deck with no deck structures in the way (skylights, trunk cabins, etc.) and a decent bulwark would give a great appearance, even with the skiff stored on deck.

Venchka, I am indeed quite fortunate to have access to the lumber resources that I do. Between myself, my sister who lives in Savannah, and a few close friends I have almost 4000 acres of timber land to cruise. While I have no interest in selling lumber, I definately see some horsetrading going on in the future. Isn't that one of the best parts of building a boat anyway - the looking for wood, parts and tools and trading and bartering and learning from other people with the same interests as us.

Thanks for the posts and I look forward to hearing more.

Paul

[brian.cunningham]

Have you thought about renting a boat for a weekend? That way you can better tell what you want in your final home?

[John Bell]

Originally posted by brian.cunningham:
Have you thought about renting a boat for a weekend? That way you can better tell what you want in your final home?I'll echo that sentiment. We spent two weeks cruising someone elses boat this summer, and it really crystallized my notions of what I do and don't like.

For instance, I now know that an inside helm is a must have. I know that 5-6 knots isn't nearly fast enough. A separate cabin for the kids/guests is critical. One head is enough. A separate shower is wonderful. A fast tender is a good thing to have. And you can't have too much refrigeration.

[Dutch.Rub]

http://www.geocities.com/skipjacksloop/BrochureBack.HI-RES.jpg

[Ariel]

As you put together your cruise you will adjust your plans many times. Lists upon lists will develop. Find your boat first, then worry about the small fishing skiff you want onboard. Take cruises on boats in the size range you are looking for--you live in mid-Alabama--make friends with boatowners on the coast--go sailing and cruising with them to help you decide on the perfect boat for you. And don't let anyone ruin your dream for you--I know of a farmer in the mid-west who with his wife and two children bought a catamaran (34') and sailed down the Mississippi River and the Tombigbee and on through Mobile, down the Florida Coast to the Bahamas, then up the East Coast to New York through the Great Lakes back to his home in Wisconsin. He knew very little about boats or the sea. Yet he accomplished his goal. You can too--go for it!

[whb]

What about the Torpedo recovery boat is Misc. wooden boat.

I know its a cruiser and not a sail boat but perhaps a design could be built to incorporate a garage rather than trying to put a pretty darn big skiff on the roof.

Howard

[Thorne]

Forwarded from John -
-----

Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 11:59:46 -0400
From: JBREEZ116B@netscape.net
Subject: wbf - SMALL OUTBOARD BOATS
X-AOL-IP: 4.238.94.48
X-AOL-Language: english

Hi David/Thorne,

Could you forward my message to Paul Pless....His address doesn't display and I've never registered on WBF....

Thanks

Hi Paul,

Here are a couple small powerboats you might be interested in building:

Strip built: Compumarine.......

http://www.compumarine.com/power_dinghy.htm

Stitch and Glue: Bateau.com

http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=D15

Bateau has others that might work....stitch and glue, no tumblehome, but quick and inexpensive to build...

P.S. I visited Fairhope, AL for a week in August. Nice place, with friendly women (at least compared to the Northeast, where ice runs through their veins)!

Good luck with the boat.

John

[Paul Pless]

wow, this thread was my very first posting, almost two years ago. I still got that dream though.

[ 09-19-2005, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[OEX]

Hey Paul--lots of info coming at you here. I have my dream and it is very close to yours. The boat I came up with does not exist anymore, but lines are available. I started by looking into the past, the old guys did just what you want to do although as jobs and livelihoods and not pleasure. But their boats evolved to the peak ability with sail right before engines came into the picture (1900 or so). With this in mind I looked for a strong ocean going hull with little over hang fore and aft. I looked for deck space and a good division of sail so single or two person sail would be possible. I looked for space below decks and standing room for me (6'5"). I looked for beauty and I looked for a good turn of speed. Lastly I looked to a rig I liked, gaff cutter or schooner.

My search ended on the Gloucester Sloop-Boat of the late 1800s. It has all these things if you increase the depth a bit if your my height. With a beam of 13-15 feet and a length of 42 - 48 feet and a draft of 6-7 feet. Here you have a large flush deck, a very good sea boat, plenty of room, etc.

I was and am into this so much that I showed my base plans to four boat builders in Maine, Mass, and one in Romania. I planned to build with Oak, Black Locust, Yellow longleaf, and cedar. I planned a classic rig with few winches, etc. I planned either a ketch or a gaff cutter, but schooner would be very good. The builders ranged in cost, but one fellow in Deer Isle ME who is just getting his name out and will do it for a good deal quoted $175,000. Ralph Stanley said $320,000, Romania said $182,500. Gannaon and Benjamin was $280,000. All these builders know I was looking for a workboat finish and not a brightwork yacht. The fellow in Deer Isle does VERY good work and grew up on lobster boats, etc with training as a shipwright in ME and RI--Peter Buckston is his name (about 2 miles from Billing’s Diesel and Marine Stonington on Deer Isle ME). He is less expensive due to his working alone or with few people, low overhead, new “name” and ……. Always assume that the builders need 10 – 20% lea way on cost and the more you help source out wood, and gather hardware THE MORE YOU SAVE.

Here are the "plans" is used Sloop-boat (http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/Gloucester-Sloop-Boat.htm) (the diagrams on the bottom of the page show a longer cabin---not needed, your boat could fit well just aft of the mast---this is a big main which I like, but you might want to get her into a ketch or better yet a schooner, and the diagrams show a 52 foot boat, but that is a typo and it is more a 44 footer). I also talked to a fellow in ME that would make up building plans for about $5000, no need of a naval architect, just a good boat builder who can do plans---this boat is entirely based on one designed by Joseph Bishop and is in Chappell’s American Sailing Craft (not his Small sailing craft boot—the other one).

I cannot afford this now, but some day........love to see someone do this though---true classic! Also see WB mag issue 152 for a great article on these type of boats.

Remember this is a fishing boat that evolved with the best fishermen of a day. Troll off the stern, have a 12-foot skiff lowered off by the boom, have a coal stove below, and cross any ocean with speed. This boat is like a Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter combined with a Friendship Sloop-Boat. Pure American workboat with a great cruising ability.

Cheers, Bruce

[ 09-19-2005, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: OEX ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

Here's a book for you to read, Paul---

THE NORTHERN LIGHT - ITS EPIC ARCTIC -ANTARCTIC SAILING VOYAGE - By Rolf Bjelke & Deborah Shapiro - Hardback Book

ISBN: 0356122506 £12.00

The account of one of the most daring sailing expeditions ever accomplished. The author's sailed Northern Light to the most northerly latitude ever reached in a private sailing craft, and then, checked by pack ice, headed south. They cruised to Cape Horn via Easter Island, Pitcairn Island and Chilean Patagonia, and then made their bold attack on Antarctica, navigating the dangerous waters for seven weeks, amongst icebergs, fog, snowstorms and temperatures below freezing. Their exciting story is accompanied by 150 colour photographs of both scenery and situations which few others have experienced.

There are copies available at---

www.abebooks.com (http://www.abebooks.com)

***

BTW, their steel vessel, the Northern Light, a Joshua 40, is of an interesting design, not too far off your specs...

Alan

http://www.ntcbb.com/im/images/feature/time_on_ice/ice2.gifDeborah Shapiro and Rolf Bjelke sailed to the Antarctic aboard Northern Light, their 40-foot steel ketch.
http://www.ntcbb.com/im/images/feature/time_on_ice/ice.gif

[ 09-19-2005, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Thorne]

Paul -

Sorry about that -- got confused by WB Forum's habit of listing the oldest threads first when I forwarded John's post to this forum.

But we all have our dreams, and this is a nice one!

;)

[Paul Pless]

I'm kinda glad this thread came back to life, there's been some interesting post on it in the last couple of hours.

Bruce,

If this can be done in 42 - 44 feet it certainly looks like a damn fine option.

http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/pagan3a-estimates.jpg

How would a schooner rig work on this hull? It looks very similar to the older schooner hulls

Paul

ps Bruce, I'm a little over 6'4" myself, I feel your pain in flush deck designs. :eek:

[ 09-19-2005, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[TomF]

Looks lovely alright. I've gone back and forth about these, vs. the pinkies. I like the look of these better ... but suspect that Roger Long's comments about seaworthiness (on the Lubec Boat thread) would apply here too, substituting "gloucester sloop boat" for "friendship boat."

I'm guessing that they'd make better progress to windward than a Pinky, so you'd beat off a lee shore in a gale more reliably ... but it would not be as good running before big waves, having a bit more tendency to broach. With all that drag to the keel, even that is likely not a big worry!

But were I looking for a potential high-latitudes world cruiser, I'd be inclined to build a Pinky, and put in an engine to help windard performance on a lee shore. I'd probably use the engine in such a situation, even with the Sloop Boat. And likely, as you suggest, I'd look to a split-rig to make each sail easier to handle. One would think that since these were derived to some extent from Gloucester schooners, that they'd re-convert to a schooner rig pretty handily.

All that said ... these are prettier to my eye than pinkies ... beautiful boats.

[OEX]

Gloucester Sloop-Boats were the parents to the Friendship Sloop-Boats. Many GSB were bought by Maine fisherman and moved up, and then many were sold in Maine and built in Maine cheaper and moved back down to MA (esp Providencetown). They were based on Schooner hulls of the time that were built in response to unsafe former designs. They are clearly very seaworthy, much more so than Friendships, more like Bristol Pilot Channel Cutters. As the lines were reduced into smaller hulls, they were deeper and less dragged. Common length was 26 - 52 feet. Vesta is an example of a larger design. The Great Republic (o0f Blackburn fame) was a GSB and is at the Cape Ann museum. The only other GSB I found and got to Wade Smith of Mystic Seaport. This boat seems to be the only sailing GSB left and she was built as a yacht in 1935.

OK, so what I did was take Vesta's lines from Chappell and set her at 44 feet, raised the free board about 8 inches and her draft about 6-7 inches. It was common to have raised for or aft decks and raised bulwarks in some GSB. With these changes she will allow for a flush deck for much of the below decks. This also makes her a bit safer with higher free board and bulwarks she will ship water les likely--the low freeboard was a design common in workboats (ease of lifting fish, dories, etc on deck). A large diesel would be best for her-- thought 80-100 hp Yanmar.

Changing her to schooner would not be an issue. Many were changed to that after conversion to yachts and the smaller Gloucester schooners were very similar. Schooners were a bit of a pain for a smaller workboat--mast took deck room needed to nest the dories. A good example of a not too dissimilar boat that was a gaff cutter and changed to a schooner and then back again is the Emma C. Berry. While Mystic put her back to gaff cutter, she actually spent most of her life as a schooner. You would just need to have whoever is drawing your plans work out the balance, etc---the fellow in Maine I mentioned it the top for this and was suggested to me by Walt Ansel of Mystic Seaport as well as Ross Gannon of Gannon and Benjamin.

Now something to consider is adapting Murray Petersons Coaster Schooners to your needs. His Coaster boats were based on the coasters as well as on pinkies (lubecs) and GSB. Get his designs, make her plumb stemmed, and arrange the deck and the there you are---very tried and true designs and the balance etc all worked out by a master. I did not do this because I personally think true workboat evolve to be the best---I am most likely wrong since I changed the design a bit (very little bit) myself--but there you are. I want a GSB not a designed yacht. There are some differences, not doubt, more than I say here, but still a possible.

Remember, I am no designer, nor a shipwright or anything—just a dreamer. But if you keep close to the original GSB lines and give them to a good boat builder with the help of a boat design---then you would be hard presses to go wrong.

Cheers

[OEX]

Oh listen if you are really serious about this I will give you everything I have. Plans, names, etc.

Cheers and contact me at bioelf@mindspring.com.

[TomF]

I hope Paul can go there ... as for me, just dreaming.

[Neil H B]

I think that this is a wonderful topic as the design brief is as challenging as it is specific, thereby necessitating innovative thinking.

Initially, I came to similar conclusion as OEX - what he calls a Gloucester Sloop Boat. But, (isn't there always atleast one?) I did not pursue this idea for the following reasons (1) To fit the fishing launch on deck, you'd have to get rid of the aft cabin and live up for'd (not the most comfortable) and (2) the huge mainsail which would be a handfull for only two people.

However, there is another possibility.

Previously in this forum we were discussing design #312 from Bill Rothrock ("I Like This Schooner" first posted 16 April 2004). On pages 162 and 163 of his great book, Bill also provides an outline for another schooner (design # 401) that might meet the requirement. It has the following advantages: (1) 41ft overall (ie. within spec) (2) by my reckoning, 11ft between masts, which while tight, may be suffice for the fishing launch (3) easily handled sail configuration for just two people (4) huge hold for all that extra gear that's mentioned in the customers requirement (big enough to fit a 10ft rowing boat) (5) pilot house for safety and comfort in the high latitudes.

Of course, to fit the fishing launch on deck between the masts you'd have to do something with the fire place stack and the hatches over the stateroom and head, but these are not insurmountable problems. Then again, given the available space due to the huge hold up for'd, it is feasible to rearrange the internal accommodation and have some sort of well between the masts in which the fishing launch could be stowed.

Perhaps Bill can tell us whether this design was built, and add any further comments.

Neil

[TomF]

Gosh that Sloop Boat is lovely. Made me go back to Chapelle's American Sailing Craft, to ogle the original there.

How would one go about some back-of-the-envelope work to convert the rig to a schooner? Start with the sail area and lead that are shown, and re-configure till you come out to pretty much the same values?

Not, unfortunately, a question with "legs" for me ... but lots of potential for idle doodling.

[Paul Pless]

Tom,

If you think playing with the schooner rig is cool on this hull, you should play with the sloop rig reefed all the way down - that's a pretty neat exercise as well.

[John B]

I hesitate to say it, but there was good information emerge about comparable sail plain leads for sloop/cutter to schooner in a thread I made a few years ago.( oh dear)
IIRC , you can have a much smaller theoretical lead on a schooner sail plan.

[Stephen Hutchins]

Hmmm... I wonder if a foldable fishing skiff could be designed for this. Also, some sort of collapsable pontoon boat might be good for what you want. Another idea could be some sort of sponson clamped to the side of the hull acting as reserve bouyancy when an place and a skinny boat when removed. Another idea would be to adopt the nesting dinghy to a slightly larger design.