Fast Double Enders

[Charles101]

Okay. I've searched and read through many of the threads here regarding double ended cruising boats. I'm coming to the conclusion that the Colin Archers and Atkins and even Garden's designs of this type are notoriously slow.

Are than any double ender cruising sailboats that are as fast as they are beautiful?

[JimD]

How big are you looking for?

[ken.bryant]

I'm also very interested in what people have to say on this topic.

[Paul Pless]

Beautiful and Fast. Rozinante. Plans available from our host.
http://www.peaseboatworks.com/images/rozinante_lines.gif

[ 03-10-2006, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[Charles101]

JimD,

I'm looking for something in the 28 - 36 foot range, and capable of allowing two people to cruise in comfort for a week or so at a time.

Charles

[JimD]

George Buehler has a couple or three double enders I think. Hard chined and relatively easy to build in plywood and epoxy, but I have no idea how fast they are. Here's a link:

http://www.georgebuehler.com/Juna.html

What do you think of Atkins' smaller, lighter designs such as Jabberwock or the canoe hulled Barrie and Lady Joan? They're probably quite nibble but on the small size inside.

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/index3.html

Edited to add. Oops. I see you want at least 28 feet so the Atkin boats mentioned would be too small.

[ 03-10-2006, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Hwyl]

This is not a bad boat, made of the other stuff

http://old.cruisingworld.com/ssbk/ssbkpix/vali40fl.gif

I don't know if Bob Perry has a wood version on the shelf http://www.perryboat.com/page/custom

[ 03-10-2006, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[Uncle Duke]

Just for reference (too much $$ for me) the Walsted/Nielsen "Holger Danske" is for sale. Stunning boat, double-ended, took overall honors in 1980 Bermuda Race.
Great description and photos here:
Holger Danske (http://tinyurl.com/hvdvc)
Man, if I won the lottery, that boat would not be on the market. But, I'd be nice, and still post pictures!

[edited to add: larger than you wanted. Price used to be about $100k higher, so maybe if I wait long enough....]

[ 03-10-2006, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Uncle Duke ]

[N. Scheuer]

Bolger designed a double-ended planning motor boat called SNOW LEOPARD which has a hard chine around the aft end that behaves much like a boat having a flat transom.

Looks fast, for sure!

Moby Nick

[Paul Pless]

re: Holger Danske. Wow! she's quite the boat. Wasn't she owned by someone affiliated with WoodenBoat? Maybe Joel White?

[ 03-10-2006, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[Uncle Duke]

Paul, I don't think so, but I could be wrong. On the third owner now, I think some Aussie? I don't know who the second one was.
She is "what the doctor ordered and why the preacher danced"....

[Paul Pless]

Uncle Duke, on second thought I think your right, Joel White owned another boat from the same designer and builder, Northern Crown , also a very special boat I think.

[bamamick]

Find yourself an old 210 and fix it up! Throw in a boom tent and a bucket and you're good to go smile.gif !

Honestly though, 'Rozinanate' is as beautiful a design as you will ever see, and seems to fit the bill as exactly what you are looking for.

Mickey Lake

[ 03-10-2006, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: bamamick ]

[Les Schuldt]

Charles,
Yes Paul, the Rozinante... I owned one for 8 years and, sadly, sold her. I'll never again own a boat so balanced, handy under jib & jigger, deadly in light air, and well mannered as Honalee.
Did I mention fast? I had to forbid my crew from grinning as we regularly passed modern "race" boats.
Sitting headroom, cozy accomodations for 2. Easily pushed by a 2 horse outboard if there's no air, but I found rowing with a 12' oar "gondola style" a real pleasure.
Read "The Compleat Cruiser" by L.F. Herreshoff, and understand what a real complete cruiser she is.

[Paul G.]

Dave Gerr has a couple of double enders that may fit the bill

[JimConlin]

Holger Danske was designed by Aage Nielsen and built by Walsted (Denmark). She spent many years in Marblehead, was sold in the last ten years & sent back To Walsteds for refit and turned up in NZ, i think.
Joel White's Northern Crown was by same designer and builder and is somewhat smaller.

[JimConlin]

See LFH design #96 Gjoa (http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/d/r/drf6/gjoa.html)
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/d/r/drf6/gjoa_sailing_1_a.jpg

[rbgarr]

A bit bigger than 36'... but fast!

http://www.dmcboats.com/takingshape.htm

[ 03-11-2006, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Chuck Paine has a few fast double enders, Carol, Annie and Leigh Chuck Paine (http://chuckpaine.com/voyaging.html)

[michigangeorge]

I used to own a Roughwater 33 which sailed well for a cruising boat. This was a Gilmer design originaly built in wood and plans may be available. Sorry I have no photos but they come up on Yachtworld often and were also called the Aries 32.

[Jeremy Burnett]

Try Fife.

[sv Lorelei]

Double enders per se aren't slow. They have gained some stigma from some popular designs that were slow, but there are quite a few decent double ender designs that are quite capable of leading the cruising pack. Most of the original Colin Archer boats were quite nimble and when properly executed in glass have become much sought after classics (i.e. the Freya 39 comes to mind). Most of the Atkins designs do well, and there are workboat designs dating back several hundred years that I think were good compromises between speed and load carrying capacity.

Fast is a relative thing too. Most of the classic double enders will turn in a respectable talley at the end of the day, but the fact that they are invariably long keeled boats means that they're best set on a long straight run and left there. Some of the Atkins designs developed for offshore cruising are IMO a bit undercanvassed, but therein lies a good deal of the comfort factor as sail handling and motion both benefit from what is taken away from the peak of the performance curve.

Week long cruising isn't all that demanding. We regularly cruise 4 on a 28 footer (not a double ender, though our next boat will be) for longer than that. I'm not a double ender fanatic, and some of them I find quite unattractive, but I think discounting any category of design outright is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Any reasonably designed 34-36 footer should be more than adequate space wise for coastal cruising.

[Wiley Baggins]

Phil Rhodes designed a number of double-enders-

Dog Star at 30'8" LOD
Tidal Wave at 32' LOD
Saona at 39' LOD (a centerboarder)
Narwhal at 39'11" LOD

[johnw]

Tumlaren.

http://ewenbell.com/photos.php?photo_id=1009

[rbgarr]

52' 8 meter double ender ANGELITA (but not what I'd call a cruising design):

www.cannellclassicboats.com/ (http://www.cannellclassicboats.com/) cbb_angelita.html

[ 03-11-2006, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Paul Pless]

rbgarr, did you see this 34' sloop at the Canell website:
http://www.cannellclassicboats.com/images/cbb_ryder-turner_amore_sm.jpg

[Dave Lesser]

How about Amore (http://www.cannellclassicboats.com/cbb_amore.html), also on the Cannell site?

Paul beat me by a minute. That's Amore above.

[ 03-11-2006, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Dave Lesser ]

[Paul Pless]

:D Dave, something about great minds...

[ 03-11-2006, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[Dave Lesser]

I had a chance to sail Gjoa (http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/d/r/drf6/gjoa.html) last summer. It didn't matter that there was no wind - the boat moves by magic.

[rbgarr]

Here's one within your size range and with a faultless pedigree: S&S designed, Hodgdon built.

http://tinyurl.com/e6r9g

[Spissgatter W-9]

Can see some Norwegian spissgatters (double enders) at: http://www.ktkweb.org/styret/Matrikkel/MatrikkelDefault.htm

[rbgarr]

And another:

http://tinyurl.com/koc5b

[Charles101]

Thankyou all for your suggestions, but especially rbgarr.

[ 03-12-2006, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Charles101 ]

[MTRiverDrifter]

Hello Charles,

I dream of someday building a version of one of these three fast double-enders (someone help with photo's if you can, these aren't on the web much and my scanner is down):

Ben Seaborn's Twinkle
30' - 8.5' - 5300lb (3000 in fin keel)

Nat Benjamin's Celeste

A scaled-up (by a qualified designer) cruiser version of Joel White's magnificent 23' Lala daysailer. Dreaming is free.

[Dave Lesser]

Anyone else have insights about what makes a double ender fast or slow? Are there exceptions to the usual design parameters (SA/Disp ratio, wetted surface area, ballast ratio, Disp/WL ratio, etc) that are unique to double enders?

[sv Lorelei]

No, there aren't exceptions to design parameters, but there are proclivities that can certainly lead one toward certain characteristics. *Most* double enders designed for cruising have shorter overhangs than contemporary designs intended for racing. This means a generally longer waterline, but larger wetted area to go along with it. This isn't always the case, but when looking at an Archer derived design you're apt to see more of a symmetrical form or one that carries it's beam and body aft more than most transom sterned hulls do. It follows that because of this these designs also offer a lot of internal space for their size, good reserve bouyancy aft compared with transom sterns. It also follows that they won't be as nimble to weather. But keep in mind we're talking about cruising boats here. Take a look at designs by Perry or Crealock to see what other ideas evolved from those designs.

[paladin]

Bob Perry's designs came from working on similar boats while apprenticed to Jay Benford. Jay has several double ender designs that may fit what you seek...

[bainbridgeisland]

Originally posted by Dave Lesser:
Anyone else have insights about what makes a double ender fast or slow? Are there exceptions to the usual design parameters (SA/Disp ratio, wetted surface area, ballast ratio, Disp/WL ratio, etc) that are unique to double enders?Yup, yup and nope.

Any Yacht Designer ought to know how to make a double ender fast. But, as you probably know, many speed-producing factors vary with the intended conditions of performance. For example, sail area to displacement ratio dominates drifter conditions where as power to carry sail tends to dominate performance in windy weather.

There are more significant design parameters than you mentioned. For example, Prismatic Coefficient, distance between the longitudinal center of gravity and longitudinal center of water plane and so on. These probably fall into your "etc". Many of these ideas are specific to a desired speed. For example optimum Prismatic Coefficient varies with the speed/length ratio.

None of these ideas are unique to double enders.

As a general comment, don't let the idea of a double ender get out of hand. Some extremely fast boats are double enders. Some transom stern boats are more seaworthy than most double enders. Being a double ender by itself is only a very small part of the overall picture.

[bhellman]

Originally posted by Charles101:
Okay. I've searched and read through many of the threads here regarding double ended cruising boats. I'm coming to the conclusion that the Colin Archers and Atkins and even Garden's designs of this type are notoriously slow.

Are than any double ender cruising sailboats that are as fast as they are beautiful?Hi!

I have at the moment a 36 feet performance double ender under construction. Estimated launching in april 2007. Link to the boatbuilder: http://www.yacht.ro

Bengt

[ 03-23-2006, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: bhellman ]

[George Ray]

Colvin Clipper Pinkey Schooner (Plan #109 EVA)
LWL: 35'
Beam: 10.5'
Draft as shown: 5.5'

Been refitting and figuring things out for a while. Think she has potential to be quick. Bringing her home after purchase in southern GA to Cape Fear area we motored north on ICW with 22HP Sabb and our average SOG was 7.3 kts. There are some exhaust backpressure issues that I think are reducing engine output. All in all it seems slippery. Will know much more soon.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid184/pddc52927af1bddda6c0de221f31164a6/f296d5d1.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid184/p1d4f6a89fe6c7c87ab1b77634fd2810c/f296d665.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid184/pca6289d15b2ddf9a971103f9f977052c/f294a386.jpg

[ 03-23-2006, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: George Ray ]

[Dave Lesser]

Bengt,

Do you have any more information about your project? Photos? Specifications? I don't see it on the builder's site that was linked to your post.

[Jay Greer]

In L. Francis Herreshoff's book "Sensible Cruising Designs" there are several double enders discussed in addition to "Rozinante". The thirty foot "Dulcinea", and the thirty six foot "Diddikai" are both ketch rigged smart sailing cruisers that have appealing lines. Additionaly there are several sloop rigged double enders as well. Plans are available from Mystic Seaport.
JG

[ 03-25-2006, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Jay Greer ]

[Dave Lesser]

Some photos of Bengt Hellman's project:

Looks like a fast double ender

http://static.flickr.com/46/118284065_629220d3bd_o.jpg

Construction Photo:

http://static.flickr.com/34/118284067_31fa03fa63.jpg

Lines:

http://static.flickr.com/48/118291686_73a3ffe56a.jpg

Dimensions
Loa 11,10 m
Lwl 9,85 m
Beam 3,30 m
Bwl 2,70
Draft 1,60 m
Depl. 5,900 m3
Ballast 2500 kg
Wet area 27 m2
RM 2850 kgm
Sailarea (100%) 62 m2

Ratios
D/L 159
SA/D 19,1
SA/WA 2,45
Cp 0,54
Ballast % 0,42
Entry angle 16 °

Rig geometry
Keelstepped fractional
P 13250
E 5200
J 4100
FH 12300
I 13000

Areas
Hull incl. keel, rudder 56 m2
Deck (flush) 27 m2

[ 03-26-2006, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Dave Lesser ]

[Charles101]

I want to thank you all again for the information. I have savored it as well as much of the other knowledge found in this forum.