Seguin kakak design from WB Store vs Merganser

[JimD]

Fast and slim, Seguin's 21 1/2" beam will challenge and reward experienced paddlers. Built of 4mm plywood, this hard-chined, stitch-and-glue sea kayak includes a retractable skeg that will provide balance and control LOA - 17' 10"
Beam - 12 1/2"
Weight - 42 lbs.
Construction: Stitch - and - Plywood

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/paaa31d8380dde3000032f60240bb217a/f1526c4a.jpg

Anyone know about this design? Now that I live by the sea it's time for a better sea kayak and not the very beamy boats I currently have. The description of this boat to "challenge and reward experienced paddlers" puts me off a bit. The other design I'm looking at is Shearwater's Merganser, either the 16.5' X 21" or the 17' X 22". I'm 5'8" 150#s.

I'm only interested in plywood boats designed for efficient touring. Plans only, no kits. Thanks.

[George Jung]

Just poking my nose in; no experience with the Merganser, but it's consistently gotten very good reviews. I'd be curious who the designer is on the Seguin, and perhaps some reviews and performance data. Any sources available from WB?

[JimD]

George, the Seguin designer is Rob Bryan but I haven't seen any testimonials. And I think LeeG has a Merganser.

[ken.bryant]

I haven't paddled the Seguin, but I sure like its looks. It is essentially a traditional Greenland boat, translated into plywood. That means certain things about it are predictable:

(1) It is a boat that requires, and rewards, technique. Specifically, there's no point in paddling such a boat unless you have, or are determined to acquire, rolling skills.

(2) Along with a roll, it's a boat designed to be turned on a lean: a Greenland boat can be very agile and turn 180 in two or three strokes, but only if you lean it until, approximately, the sprayskirt's wet. To do this requires skills in bracing -- and you won't have those until you learn to roll (see (1)).

(3) The very low back deck is perfect for Greenland-style rolling, with a "lie-back" -- flattening yourself on the back deck as you come up to bring weight close to the boat's center of gravity. Most people who teach rolls these days are white water paddlers who teach the "C to C" roll, and will argue a lie back is going to lose you your face against the rocks. Well, this is a religious dispute, but the point is: the ONLY advantage of that low back deck is a traditional lie back roll. So if you're not going to learn that style, this isn't the boat for you.

(4) 21.5 inch beam is definitely on the narrow side. You're going to need to be able to roll with a boat that narrow (see (1)). The Greeland rule of thumb for a real boat (as opposed to a showoff-your-tricks boat) is "hips plus two fists" -- that is, stand with your fists at the widest part of your hips,thumbs in, and the little-finger-to-little-finger measurement is how wide your boat ought to be.

(5) If you can't roll, come into Vancouver! Be happy to teach you.

[JimD]

Thanks for the offer, Ken. I can roll, sort of. That is I learned to roll but only in a swimming pool and I haven't kept up with practice so will have to do some brushing up. I don't really want a boat so tempermental that it's going to leave me upside down in the drink a lot.

[ken.bryant]

Well, it's a good-news-bad-news thing. I paddle with a group here in Vancouver called LURK -- the "League of Utterly Rudderless Kayaker". When we paddle we purposely spend lots and lots of time upside down, out of our boats, etc. -- we make it a full-contact water sport, and dress accordingly. The advantage is, then when you paddle on the Brooks on a 30-knot day, you're expecting to get wet, and it's no surprise -- and no big deal -- when it happens.

So the Seguin looks to me like a boat designed for that kind of paddling. I love that kind of boat -- it responds to your every movement, for better or worse -- but if you don't like spending a lot of time wet, it's not the boat.

[JimD]

Ken, yes, I can see where I have some decisions to make. I'm either going to have to get serious about getting wet or limit myself to what I'm used to, which is mostly easy shoreline paddles on sunny afternoons.

[Dave Gray]

In researching kayak plans in the past I seem to recall that people with short feet will be more likely to match up to a kayak with less beam. Having size 12 feet a 6'+ frame I think I know what I would have to settle for.

I found this link which may or may not be of interest to sea kayakers

SEE Kayaks (http://www.seekayak.com/)

[ 11-25-2005, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Dave Gray ]

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Ken said: the ONLY advantage of that low back deck is a traditional lie back roll.I have heard another viewpoint argued: That the boat has not so much a low rear deck, as a raised bow, which helps prevent weathercocking in cross winds. I don't know how valid this is but boats with symmetrical windage do tend to point up into the wind.

As to rolling, this is the single best boost for confidence there is, learn one bullet-proof roll - it does not have to look pretty but it must work 100%.
Personally I don't like the Lie-on-the-rear-deck approach because in shallow fast water this risks the facefull of rock, but in deep water with paddlers of poor flexibiliy is fair enough and perfectly adequate.

[Todd Bradshaw]

It's more a matter of deck height than beam. Tall big-footed people (Sasquachular?") can paddle narrow boats just fine as long as your toes aren't jammed into the deck and you can find a comfortable angle for your thighs. That being said, there are some boats that are quite comfy, some that are fair and plenty that are awful, in terms of fit, so a good test paddle whenever possible is a great idea.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Did you ever:

Duct tape your toes to prevent abrasion from a fibreglass squirt boat?

[JimD]

The other design of interest is Shearwater's Merganser which comes in a variety of sizes. It looks like either the 16.5'x 21.5" or the 17'x 22" might work for me although I favour the 17 footer.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/p787fb608e342b95d327cf623ca799a37/f1519ce3.jpg

Shearwater's description sounds less intimidating to me although in terms of length, beam, and style (chined Greenland) they seem to be very similar.

A Sleek Greenland Style Kayak
The merganser is designed for the paddler who wants the performance and light weight of a boat with the beauty of wood at economical prices. These boats are built from Okoume mahogany plywood for strength and natural good looks. The Merganser tracks well yet maneuvers easily with leaning. This boat is stable enough for the novice yet will perform for the expert. It has a relatively high forward deck to provide leg room and dry ride and a low rear deck for easy rolling. The Merganser is very fun to surf of wind blown waves, accelerating quickly to catch waves and zooming along in a comfortable and controllable way. The waterline is 20 inches wide on the merganser for efficient paddling. Flared sides provide comfortable secondary stability. The multi panel deck and recessed cockpit provide leg and foot room as well as an ergonomic fit in a sleek, low profile kayak.

Edited to add pic:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/pee8357884462b178eb33e6c011e5e69f/f1519964.jpg

[ 11-25-2005, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[LeeG]

Jim, I don't know the Seguin but have built a Merganser 16,18 and have yet to finish a 17W.
If you don't have a roll down then you'll be a bit tender in the 16 although your weight is perfect for it. I made one for a friend who's female, similar weight but shorter than you and she was extremely comfortable in it,,but that's cg talking. At 200#'s I could paddle the 16 but was loading it down.

With your size in the 17 you'll have a wide range of controllable stability before capsize with plenty of speed. You'd be a smidge light in it, especially in a strong breeze.

The Mergansers are kind of ideal for point to point paddling without tracking aids. A more responsive/maneuverable kayak might be desirable but that would require more paddler skill. That's where Nick Schades designs come in I guess. Guillemot, Night Heron.

To me a large part of the appeal of the Merganser is the coaming/thigh braces(although they do need to be redesigned/moved back)and deck angles. With accidental deck whacking the blade strikes are at a glancing angle with little consequence.

You could make the 17 pretty light with 3.25oz tightweave glass from RAKA. The exterior bottom panels doubled layer.

[JimD]

Thanks for the info, Lee. I think the 17 would be just about right for me. It will be a good winter project for a spring launch and will brush up on self rescue and rolling in the mean time.

[LeeG]

one of the things that seems to get left out in comparisons of boats, especially plywood kayaks with flat low aft decks, is the consequence of a sharp edge on the stern deck.
If it's a low volume kayak then it's a low freeboard edge that can get hooked in waves. A simple comparision is to take two kayaks of similar beam/length, one a low volume "greenland style" kayak and another a molded shape (strip or glass). Paddle along then lean inside with a bracing turn coming to a stop. The sharp aft sheer will get hooked by your following wave providing a little "dip" in the stability curve. Do the same with the curved deck/sheer and the stern wave doesn't get the same "dip".
This is kind of minor but once the kayak gets wider and the kayak longer that edge provides a bigger 'dip' in waves or controlling the kayak on waves.
Another thing is that it's easy to think a flat aft deck corresponds to a low back coaming which is somehow supposed to be desirable for rolling. With a coaming recess or sufficient distance between the back band and aft edge of the coaming you can have the same torso mobility as a low aft deck but not have your coaming height to water distance so small that popping the skirt means shipping water.

[ 11-28-2005, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: LeeG ]

[LeeG]

Originally posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt:
[QUOTE] have heard another viewpoint argued: That the boat has not so much a low rear deck, as a raised bow, which helps prevent weathercocking in cross winds. I don't know how valid this is but boats with symmetrical windage do tend to point up into the wind.

this is where hull shape makes a HUGE difference. You can have two kayaks with the same fore/aft windage and one could weathercock more than the other.

I found this out playing with my own 18'x21" s&g design while trying to figure out why the CLC Northbay XL weathercocked worse than the narrower Northbay.
The XL was a 22" version of the 20" wide Northbay. But for some reason the entry was sharper than the stern at the waterline compared to the standard Northbay. Basically you'd have to put 15lbs in the stern to raise the bow and reduce the sharper entry. Neither kayak had much rocker so leaning them didn't provide much compensation. The XL was so bad it was pretty much unpaddlable above 20mph winds.

On my own design it had a funny unintended characteristic of "squatting" a little above 3mph so the entry was unweighted a notch and it tracked well as well as responded to a lean,,once is slowed down the stern loosened up and it would weathercock more and turned much more easily.

[JimD]

Lee, I'm thinking of strip planking a Merganser 17. There's bead and cove red cedar readily available locally but I think nothing thing thinner than 1/4". Did you build with 4 mil plywood?

[LeeG]

4mm,,isn't 1/4" ok with some sanding taking it down another 1/16"?

It's kind of a testimony to building being more important than paddling since a strip hull and ply deck would make more sense from a handling standpoint than a four panel hull and a strip deck.

[JimD]

I had in mind strip planking the whole boat, not just the deck. I'm getting tired of building in tropical plywood.

[LeeG]

heck if you're going totally strip why the Merganser?
Check out Vaclavs One Ocean kayaks for his LT versions of his regular big kayaks.

[JimD]

Originally posted by LeeG:
heck if you're going totally strip why the Merganser?
Check out Vaclavs One Ocean kayaks for his LT versions of his regular big kayaks.My favourite kayak designs as far as eye appeal goes are Steve Killing's, available through Bear Mountain.

How about Endeavour?

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/p2df44b6892e39f66881e3dc8a96b58e4/f141b448.jpg

Length 17'
· Maximum beam 23.5"
· Beam waterline 22"
· Beam gunnel 23.5"
· Bow height 14"
· Centre depth 7.5"
· Draft 4"
· Displacement 280 lbs.
· Wetted surface 21.8 sq. ft.
· Weight to immerse 97 lb/in.
· Prismatic coefficient 0.561
· Weight 45 to 50 lbs
· Cockpit opening 31" x 15.5"

The beauty of this kayak will hit you when you first set up the station molds. It is sleek, graceful and a dream to paddle. Perfect for day trips or week long excursions, you will find the boat tracks well, goes fast and behaves itself in waves. Mike O'Brien, senior editor of WoodenBoat Magazine had this to say: "the sharply raked stem and well shaped forward sections will provide increasing buoyancy as the Endeavour punches into large waves. The fine run, and nearly vertical sternpost, will help ensure positive control when we are running off in a big sea (one of the scariest elements of sea kayaking). In all, this hull has a friendly and competent look to it."

[ 11-29-2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]