harrier vs. penobscot

[Brian Badgley]

Hi everyone, I'm interested in a 17-19 ft lap beach cruiser, particularly the penobscot 17 (arch davis) and the harrier or marsh hawk (tony dias). Anyone sailed these? I prefer a sailboat that I can row over a rowboat that I can sail, and I want to carry 4 people comfortably when the need arises. The penobscot seems to be on whitehall lines so I wonder if it is as strong a sailer as the beach double-enders of dias and oughtred.

Any other designs that people can mention would be great, but it has to be a very simple and free-standing rig, preferably a yawl or ketch. Also, we have notoriously light summer airs down here in Naples, so I need something that can move in the puffs. Any experience with either of these boats or others would be great. Thanks!

[ 04-03-2002, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Brian Badgley ]

[Tom Dugan]

Well, these things boil down to a matter of taste. Mine runs towards the double-enders of Oughtred, and Joel White's Shearwater. Just about any of Oughtred's Ness series, or a stretch Whilly Boat would fit the requirements you've listed.

-T

[ 04-02-2002, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Tom Dugan ]

[Sailman58]

Ben Fuller owns Harrier and frequently makes an appearance in this forum. I had a chance to take Ben's class at WoodenBoat School last summer, and got to sail Harrier in the class. Having said that, I would defer any comments to Ben.

Ron

[Steve Paskey]

I've had a chance to watch Ben Fuller's HARRIER sail on two different occasions: once at Mystic Seaport at the small craft weekend last June, and again at the mid-Atlantic small craft festival in St. Michaels, Maryland last October. As a land-locked observer, I was struck on both occasions by how well she seemed to move. At Mystic the wind was very light, but Harrier ghosted along quite nicely.
Keep in mind, though, that there are several options for rigs on Harrier: Ben's boat has a unusually tall lug sail with a carbon mast.

[ 04-03-2002, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[Ben Fuller]

Desigh: Much of the decision has to do with non sailing. Having a flat bottom board for beaching was an essential component of my decision.We wanted to keep the length at 17' so she would fit into a standard garage on a trailer. I looked at Joel White's enlarged Shearwater, set up more for rowing, Ian O's Ness Yole which we reduced in size to 95%, and Art's Penobscot. The latter two don't take the bottom flat. And I am a little suspicious of whitehall based designs when tacking in close quarters. We put a lot of flare in Harrier which helps keep it dry and provides beam for hiking but keeps her narrow on the water. A special wide gunwhale provides rigidity, keeps the spray down and is comfortable when you need to be there.

For rowing Harrier goes well with two. At about 200- 250 pounds she is a little heavy for best performance from one. I am going to set up the center rowing station which is movable to be able to be moved aft for rowing with two so we have balance, and if you are not using a sloop rig, you can shift the foward seat aft. There are also some other tweaks to interior layout.

As far as the rig goes, I have a very high aspect ratio standing lug, fully battened. It seems to be a highly efficient sail, easy to reef. The little mizzen is useful when you want to go head to wind reefing and setting the mainsail, and was something that the owner of the Joel White enlarged Shearwater recommended. It does require a bit of organization and some compromises if you are used to a normal tiller. Carbon sticks are the way to go; my main is half again as stiff as a wooden stick and will become stiffer still. I have an efficient downhaul which will really flatten the sail as long as the mast does not bend. Harder it blows the harder you pull on it.

A bunch of other tweaking is happening all of which is getting sent to Tony Dias.

[ 04-05-2002, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Ben Fuller ]

[LaMess]

Mr. Fuller: I got extremely agitated when I saw the study plans so I might not survive this humble request but can you post photos? Anyone?

Thanks

Lynn

[Ben Fuller]

Easiest way to see photos is Tony Dias's web site.

http://www.diasdesign.com/

Go to the gallery and hunt for Harrier. If you can get to the Mystic Small Craft workshop you can see and play there; she'll also be at the Rockland Maine 2002 festival.

[LaMess]

Sweeeet. Thank you. I've searched for that site in the past but failed miserabley. I like it and its bookmarked. Soon as my heart quits beating so fast I'll have another look.

Who picked the colors? ;)

Lynn

[Ben Fuller]

I was tired of boring anal boat color..... New England green and Moxie orange rachets things up a touch. Its the way I did a s&g kayak as well. Epifanes being a Dutch company has nice orange both in enamel and in single part. Lets get some color out there!

[Dave Williams]

Ben,

Since there is no boom do you have any problem with rhythmic rolling downwind or do the battens help you out with that? She's sure a beauty!

Dave

[Ben Fuller]

Rhythmic rolling downwind has nothing to do with a boom or lack of same and every thing to do with twist. Full battens help keep the sail flat; but the secret in everything from Finns to Lasers to Harriers is how you trim the head of the sail. If the top of the sail is ahead of the mast and the bottom is behind it the boat can roll. One vector at the top pushs the boat to windward while the other at the bottom pushes to leeward.

What I am experimenting with is the stiffness needed in the bottom batten; if it is too soft a really ugly off the wind sail; if too stiff a ugly light to moderate up wind sail.