Haven 12 1/2 design

[hake]

I have been considering the haven 12 1/2. A beautiful boat and quite popular. Much of what I heard and read is that she is one of the finest day sailers but hard to build. I don't know much about design- but what makes her so special ( besides looks). And why is the haven so hard to build?

[Art Read]

Hake... As for what makes 'em so special, I got a chance to sail the Herreshoff design that Mr. White based his Haven on. It's just a really fun boat to sail. Big boat feel in a small package if that makes any sense. As for why they always describe it as being so hard to build, I suspect it's because that the plans are "marketed" to amatuers with full sized "patterns" to avoid the need for lofting, well detailed structural, fastening and rigging schedules and even a list of materials and a "building manual". Perhaps they just want to "emphasise" that it's NOT a "kit" boat that can slapped together in a few weekends? Certainly lots of folks have done a good job building 'em over the years. Many as a first project... It will take a huge commitment of time and resources and when you get right down to it, YOU are going be the one who has to decide when your molds are fair enough, how to pour the lead for your ballast keel, or perhaps who you can get to do it for you, where the planks want to lay, how to fair those caulking seam bevels, whether or not the sheer line looks sweet and where in the hell you're gonna find a nice piece of spruce big enough for the mast... But these are "good" problems! ;-}

[Paul]

http://www.havenbuilders.com/
I guess one of the reasons she is so special is because of her looks. Another reason might be that the Herreshoff 12.5 was one of his most popular and long lasting designs. I believe over 400 of these day sailors were built, and I understand that many are still sailing today. The longevity of the boat is a testiment to the design and to the construction skills of the boat builders of that time. Joel White's version mirrors the original in almost everyway, except for the centerboard vs full keel hull. Only a few dimensions top side are changed. The plans are well layed out and as Art mentioned,come with full size mold station layouts and full size drawings for the cb belogs, transom etc. This certainly helps with one step of the process which would stop many first time boatbuilder, including myself, which is lofting. With that said, consider this. The construction of the 22 mold stations are a project in themselves. See the above site link and take a look at the mold setups. Talk about sculptor! The book how to build the Haven 12.5 is an invaluable reference in giving an insight to the construction technique to build boats. I would suggest this book to anyone, regardless if you are going to build the boat or not. But don't consider this the only bible to building this boat as ther are other books that should be read before you begin to build any traditional pof boat. I would say one of the most difficult but satisfying aspect of buildign this boat is building her. You will improve your hand tool skills, and use a small block plane more than you can imagine. You will feel and see the almost magical transformation of bending white oak frames. You will get to work with sweet smelling cedar as you shape and hang your planks. Once the planking is complete and you stand looking at one of the most beautiful hulls ever designed, you will be reluctant to paint her. But never the less, if you do decide to take this boat on as a building project, it will take many, many hours of determination and time away from your family. Some may have built Haven's quicker, I am going past my third year. There are other boats, just as beautiful and just as gratifying to build. Thanks to Joel White for giving me the push over the hump by designing and furnishing me the tools I needed to build the boat I wanted to build, the first time. Other boats will follow, but with what I have learned by building the Haven will be less mysterious and less of a challenge. Check out the above sight and you will get a very good feel for all that goes into building this boat.

[John B]

I just spotted this thread.
A week ago I wouldn't know what you were talking about, but as I said in my " greatest weekend " topic in misc I had the most lovely evening sail in a Haven last Sunday .
Very light breeze.... excellent pick up and speed, light helm, and an ability to sail on undisturbed by chop.
According to the skipper of the yacht accompanying the Haven, she had come to the regatta from about 12 or 15 miles away , beating a large part of it into 25 knots at times.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1257037&a=11267682&p=39740080&Sequence=0&res=high
What a honey that boat is.

[Keith Wilson]

One of the reasons Haven 12-1/2s are harder to build than many other boats is that they try to follow the Herreshoff original in details and methods of construction. Herreshoff had a substantial factory that was capable of building just about anything that floats, and his construction methods were developed to make efficient use of those capabilities. No one who builds a boat themselves will have anything like the Herreshoff factory in their garage, and following the original construction methods is very time-consuming when you're only making one boat.

For example, making a mold for each frame makes sense if you are mass-producing boats; it's terribly laborious if you're building one. Another example: that lovely molded sheerstrake, rather than the separate rubrail used by just about every other boat in existence. It's harder to make and is functionally inferior to a hardwood rubrail, but was a Herreshoff trademark, and was really just to show off their skills.

Remember that the 12-1/2 was originally built by the premier yacht yard in the days before income tax, when the rich were REALLY rich and spectacularly conspicuous consumption was the order of the day. It also cost WAY more than other comparable boats at the time.

I've thought off and on about building a somewhat simplified Haven with the same hull shape and without all the fussy Herreshoff details (maybe even plywood lapstrake, God help us), since I'm far enough away from New England and the Herreshoff true believers that it's unlikely I'd get lynched. I bet it would cut the cost by 1/4 and the building time by 1/3 or more, and the boat would be just as nice to sail.

OTOH, a nice 12-1/2, Haven or Herreshoff, is a lovely boat, and a feast for the eyes. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice.

[Paul]

You have to admitt......that Herreshoff knew how to design them. But what do you expect from a man that says something like.. reverse curves are most interesting...and so far as I know there are only reverse curves on a beautiful women in her prime.
The coaming on the boat doesn't appear to be mahogany, other than that all I can do is look in awe and hope mine looks as grand when she is launched in May......yep...you heard it here....May, 2001!!!!!!!

[Steveh]

A late reply.
John, do you do any work or get any sleep? I wonder. Also glad you added the word boat or I might have thought you were referring to my good wife. She definitely is a honey, the both, I was spellbound from the moment I set eyes on her. Ok ok lets talk about the Haven 12 1/2 only. I was fortunate to have a sail in her on a perfectly classic late afternoon with John B (thanks for the photo John), I have to add, that's my boat in the background. A Charles Bailey Jnr 1904, as the picture shows she has been added onto in the early seventies converted to bermuden rig and is nearing the time to return her to her former glory. I am in two minds as to the feasibility of this task and if the option to sell and perhaps to scale down so to speak, the Haven would be a choice. She is certainly a beautiful little yacht and with four adults reclining comfortably with room for more and a setting sun we could have kept sailing and quite forgotten where we were. The openness of the Haven yet the feeling of security sitting deep within make her a safe option for that family outing.
Sorry I have no input on construction, but as Keith adds the complexity of building has carried on from another time and another process and perhaps this alone is one of the reasons the Haven is such a special and unique boat to behold. The photo is of a Joel White version with centerboard and as you put it John, What a honey.

[John B]

Uh oh,, the Nagatira is in the bay.......

[TomFF]

The Haven sure is a beauty. Joel White did a great job, but.... why? Can the plans for the herreschoff 12.5 still be found? I've recently seen some fiberglass look alikes that claim to be from the original design.

[John B]

I was told that it was something to do with the copywright. can anyone confirm that?

[TomFF]

I know that Joel White changed the boat so that it had a centerboard. But the Haven is clearly based off the Herreschoff design- it's even advertised that way.

Does anyone know if the Herreschoff plans are available?

[ken mcclure]

Check with the Hart Nautical Collections people at the MIT Museum in Cambridge, MA. They make plans available, and the prices are, as I understand it, pretty reasonable.

In "Sensible Cruising Designs," the executrix of LFH's estate was also making full size plans available, but I don't know prices nor do I know if they're still doing it. The address listed there is

Elizabeth Vaughn
LHF Plans
620 Galland Street
Petaluma, CA 94952

Good luck! I've admired the boat for years and daydreamed about building one, too!

[sawcutmill]

To answer the question of "why" i believe that after the yard closed and mr.Haffenreffer operated the place the terms and conditions were that for the 12.5 the plans were not allowed to be built unless you owned the original ballast out of lead.so joel could not build the boat the way it was designed because of the lead ballast, and his answer to that dilema was to alter the underwater profile in liew of centerboards, and other than that it is as close to original as one can get.I own my grandfather's 12.5,"Phantom", pictured in the WB publication "Wood,Water&Light",by Maynard Bray and Benjamin Mendolwitz, one can also see my 12.5 ,built in 1928, hull #1144,w.oak coamings covering boards etc, which i rebuilt two years ago including the transom which i must say was furniture splined with red oak, and i replaced it w/ black locust and three seams versus four cause the rudder pintle screws were in the seam and that was no good. www.woodwater.com (http://www.woodwater.com) has some pictures on the rebuild and sailing of this heirloom,original in color and that is Herreshoff Green with my grandfathers'(all of his boats were green)double bootline black over white. Her sailing qualities are unparalled, she is still very competitive especially in a blow as i have sailed her in several force 6/7's, as the year that the Herreshoff Rendezvous of
1999 occured we experienced a near miss with a hurricane, blowing in gusts to 50 knots, i sailed her 14 miles to bristol from wickford by myself and the dog just in time to miss the first starting gun, raced anyway but no trophy as i played catch up.not for sale either as it eventually belongs to my son who is ten this year.see you on the water soon....

[Paul]

Clure, Mystic Seaport Museum has taken lines off an original Herreshoff 121/2, which are available, and the price is only about $30. HOWEVER, the offsets are blacked out and the only way you can get them is to get permission from (I forget) either Bullseye or the Doughdish Company. I tried to get the offsets and was turned down. Even if you build Joel White's version, I would suggest the Mystic plans as a reference. Now, if anyone knows where to get the offsets, please let me know.

[BongoCruiser]

I love the design of the haven 12 1/2 and once purchased a completed set of forms to build one. I don't know if I should blame the wife, the children, my busy life or my fear of such a big project but my project never got off the ground. Right now I'm paying monthly storage to keep the forms in a rental shed but am getting second thoughts on when this project will begin. If anyone wants a jump start on building a 12 1/2 feel free to contact me joe.oliver@alltel.com. I hope this doesn't violate the list rules.

[Zane Lewis]

ON the theme of boats to look after, and the New Haven.
Back in 1981 Dad had a Buzzards bay 14' built which is the bigger brother to the 12 1/2. She was just over 17' LOD, 2'6" draft and would clean up most trailer yachts up to 20 ft and in a blow up to 22'. We had a small cuddy with two bunks and a boom tent. Sailed all around the Mercury islands and Huaraki Gulf.

She is now sitting out at Kawhia going down hill. I think I mite go for a vist shortly.

Zane

[Michael]

Thought I'd dredge this thread up; here is a response from CCSB to my inquiry for plans:

Dear Michael,
Thank you for contacting us by e-mail. We unfortunately do not allow other
builders of the Herreshoff H-12 1/2, as the design is still in production
today. E.L. Goodwin of Cape Cod Shipbuilding Co. purchased the rights from
Herreshoff Manufacturing in the 40's & they have been in constant production
since. Amateurs and
professionals have requested in the past to build H-12's, and we are honored
that this design has such a following. Herreshoff did not build this boat
from blueprints, rather they had wooden patterns & jigs, so there really are
no offsets which make it impossible to build a wooden H-12 from plans.

If you are looking for a similar design to the H-12, you can also inquire
about the Buzzards Bay 14-(designer L. Frances Herreshoff) attn. curator of
plans at Mystic Seaport, Mystic CT. This vessel is like the 12 1/2,
but slightly larger. L. Frances was Capt. Nat's son who designed this boat
with the "do it yourselfer" in mind & made a set of plans with everything
you would need to know included.

We always have several H-12's in various stages of production in the shop.
Currently we have 13 H-12's on order, and could certainly take your order
for a new H-12. Please let us know your mailing address & we will be glad
to mail you a catalog & price list with options. Used H-12's are also
available, which are a project in themselves. You can check our used
boat listing on our website for updates on used boats. Hope this has
pointed you in the right direction, as we look forward to getting you
sailing in a Herreshoff!

Sincerely,

Betty A. Merrill
Cape Cod Shipbuilding Co.

[Pete Dorr]

A sight to see is Quisset Harbor (Falmouth MA) where there are 20 or so of these fine boats, many of which are wood.

[Steve Paskey]

I can only assume that Mystic blacks out the offsets because they've been threatened with litigation. If that's true, it's a bloody shame that CCSB are such bullies, and that Mystic is timid.

Given that Herreschoff Mfg. didn't build from plans, one can say with certainty that the design was not copyrighted. CCSB may own the name, the patterns and the jigs, but that's all. They don't own the lines or the offsets, and there's no reason for Mystic to black out the offsets on their plans.

CCSB may threaten litigation all they want, but anybody who wants could take the lines off a Herreschoff 12-1/2 and sell both the lines and the offsets. If push came to shove, I can't imagine that any court would rule in CCSB's favor.

Heck, if I owned an original 12-1/2, I might well do just that, except that I'd be too busy sailing.

[ 11-27-2002, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[Carlsboats]

This business about copyright laws is a needless distraction. The original H 12 1/2 was created so long ago that I can't understand how anyone can claim to have a copyright that is still valid -- they do run out, you know. Anyway, there are lots of similar boats for which lines, offsets and construction plans are available. The Haven 12 1/2 is the first example. People at WoodenBoat tell me that the C.B version and the original keel version re about dead even in speed. Next up the line is the Buzzard's Bay 14, a wonderful day boat that can gstay out in just about any weather. Up from there is the Herreshoff Fish, at
20 feet, and its C.B. cousin (also from Joel White) the Flatfish. WoodenBoat will sell you the lines, offsets and full construction plans for the Flatfish --another real winner in my book.
As for construction, all of these boats are going to be very time consuming, whether you build them with strip planking, carvel, or whatever. They all have H's hollow bows and transoms that are tricky to get right. The lines are complex and subtle little errors will make these boats look really bad. They need a lot of molds, and careful fairing. This is why builders today have to charge $20,000 to $30,000 and more for a wooden 12 1/2. To build a wooden Fish Boat today, which is ab9out twice as much boat, would certainly cost $40,000 or more. There is a boat in the market now called the Pisces 21. Designed by Chuck Paine, it is in the same family, and it is a knockout. It also costs --with a wooden mast and beautiful trim work -- way over $50,000.
No, there's no quick and dirty way to build boats like these. I know to my own pain, because I am building a similar boat myself, and am already two years into the project without having even started on the interior. Just the designing, lofting, mold building and setting up took most of a year of spare time work.

[Bayboat]

There's a lot of sound advice in this thread.
At the risk of sounding smug, I'm sure glad I have an old original H-12.5 (1930). Even as an ex-professional boatbuilder I would hesitate to take on building one--it would take a lot of time. This design was one of NGH's stock boats, built over complex jigs by professional craftsmen. That's hard (but not impossible) for an amateur to duplicate. The Haven 12.5 is a very acceptable substitute, given the way the plans are offered.
It's too bad that Cape Cod Shipbuilding has played "dog in the manger" with the H-12.5 plans for so long. I suspect that since they market plastic versions they think that people building wooden versions would take away from their profits on the plastic ones. They're probably right. Wooden H-12.5's have been called the best small boats ever produced, and I expect that if it were possible many of them would be under construction now. As it is, we have to treasure and coddle those that are still among us.

[Michael]

I do like the Haven 12.5, but I like the full keel better than the CB model.

Got the offered info by the way. A FG Haven 12.5 starts at $24,000, excludes sails.

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