The Ones That Got Away or Great Tool Deals Lost

[Dave Fleming]

The Cleekster and I started hijacking a thread over in B&R and I suggested we move our talk to another Forum so here we are!

We were talking about tools and trying to get the best. Cleekster remarked about the ones that got away, tool wise.
I too have had some chances to score on tools but flubbed the deal. One time I was chatting with a fellow and he related that a widow whose husband had been a pattermaker died and she wished to sell his tools. The price quoted to me was reasonable but money was scarce what with 3 young voracious appetited sons at home. So I passed but did mention that an acquaintance was looking to build up his tool kit. I forgot all about it until I went out to see that acquaintance and immediately spotted a new chest of tools on the back of his workbench. I asked him about it and sure enough it was that same pattern makers tool chest I had passed on. It was a beaut! Complete set of hand woodworking tools and precision layout tools too. The creme de la creme was the pattern makers plane complete with all the different soles and shaped blades. Oh I drooled over that chest! When I asked my acquaintance what he paid for it, knowing what the asking price had been, he replied with a figure about 1/2 of that!!!! Seems he went to the widows house told her about him just starting as a boat builder and she cut the price just for him.
Oh that hurt for a bit and then he broke out the Rum bottle and all was well between us again.

[David N.]

my sister's neighbors husband died , he was an A&P mech. for 30 yr's , all the guy's in the shop kicked in and bought his collection of snap-on's ( or snap'em up's ) and gave her $800 . Nice guy's eh .

[Dave Fleming]

Yeah pals like that who needs enemies?

[vince gordon]

Whilst working in Antarctica I have had the chance to travel around the continent a fair bit. About 4 (? they start to blend together) seasons back I was out at a place called Byrd Surface Camp. I was out there for a couple weeks helping to tear down the surface camp as it was that "last season" they were gonna use it. A whole other story. At any rate about 1/8 of a mile away was the old station itself, buried under about 80 feet of drifted snow. This in its day was a big station. The thing was too dangerous to get down into that season so I never did actually see this stuff. However Steve and a number of other had been in there in past seasons. Basically when they closed up the Navy just packed up thier bags and left everything. Thus there is an entire gally old food etc. They said it was kinda spooky. The good stuff was a machine shop, lathe, boring bar etc... and a complete wood shop, all the gear, planer, table saw, jointer, on and on.... and its still just sittin out there! How to get that stuff home????Uff da!! :rolleyes:

[vince gordon]

Dave What would be a good definition of a pattern maker? What exactly did these guys do? Is it a lost and dying art? Did you see this last issue of Fine Wood Working? There is a fella in there who has an artical about making a nice wood bench with what must be a 150 lb. Pattern Makers vice. Man would I like to find one of those old time vises! Oh and your friend "The Gnome" has an interview in that same issue as well.

[seafox61]

I hope no one is offende by a broad definition of tools
I went to an older gentalmans house to see about a 4x5 camera. ok price but turned out to be a speed graphic ( it was a newsmans camera from the 20s shot the hundenberg fire in 37 ect , If you watch the movie the natural the news photographers are using a speed graphic) and I was looking for a field or monorail camera which would have more movements. a class mate at college was talking a couple of weeks later about the 2!! large format camera he had bought from an old fellow in south odgen, a 4x5 sped graphc and an 8 x 10 in kodak field camera
jeffery

[Dave Fleming]

Vince when I was investigating what I really wished to do with my life, I had come down to two choices. First a Boatbuilder, Second a Patternmaker, there was no third.
When I/We did 'drop out' and I made it into the Boatbuilder apprentice program, I was for awhile sitll torn between the two. I am happy with my final choice but know that I would have made more money ( and had MORE tools ) if I had become a patternmaker. <insert big grin here>
That vice on the bench in FWW article is an EMMERT, a vice we call the best damn woodworking vice in the world. See here and then use Google for more on it and its as finely made clones the Oliver and Kindt-Collins.
Emmert Vice (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/1824/emmert.htm)

In days gone bye everything cast and many a forged item needed a pattern of the piece to be worked. This was the patternmakers job to take a blueprint and fabricate, out of wood, a pattern or mockup of the item but it is just a tad bit more involved than that simplistic view. Again the internet search engines will expose you to more about patternmaking than you need to know.

PS: the IMOOP, best book out there on work benches is Scott Landis', The Workbench Book from the publishers of FWW. There is a pretty decent Emmert function type vice design made from a conventional woodworking vice bye a fellow named Sheridan shown in that book too.

[Rocky]

SpeedGraphic's still a good camera, Seafox, makes huge negatives, and you can also put a Polaroid back on it.

[David N.]

this old boy used to come over and get me to help him every now and then , well really he was trying to get his daughter married off , she was not the prettest thing and pound for pound she was to round for me , but to me a 10 is a 6 with a smile on her face . What tools did he have ?? , well a press brake that would bend 1/2" steel in 16' length's and a shear that would do 1/2" steel in 16' lengths plus all the pan and box brakes and apron brakes and beaders and bar folders , that is what I remember . Someone from the coast came over and gave his wife a check for 80k , lock stock and barrel . Let's see ,the press brake with tooling was worth at least 250k , the shear 75k on and on .
Damn I would of loved that woman ( had I to do it again )

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Tom Patry of Smiths Falls Pattern Works was the last pattern maker I knew of in this neck of the woods...I assume he is passed on, since this is twenty years ago, and he was old then. Pattern making is a science of sorts, because when you make the exact replica of the thing you want to sand cast, the item shrinks slightly when the metal cools. Therefore, there were pattern making rules that accounted for the shrinkage in different metals. Tom had a patternmaking table as well, which was a machined top made of iron, with various pieces that could be raised or lowered to accomodate set up of patterns. Highly accurate. Tom ended up making scale models for the Canadian War museum, which of course would pretty straightforward for a guy that worked in close tolerances all his life. He also restored dispro's and numerous other things. The pattern shop was on the edge of town on Hwy 29, and had stuff in it that would blow your mind tool wise. As you can see, I used to collect old guys, and boy did they ever know alot. smile.gif Ever see one of those tables Dave?

My family used to own a foundry and forge in Hespeler Ontario before the turn of the century. After the first war, they were granted the rights to reproduce the ridgid pipe wrench, which of course has been the most widely used design in the history. They also made taps and dies, and some farm equipment repair tools. After the second war, the mills went out of that area, and the company closed. We have several tools made there.My Dad has a full set of starrett what nots and even strain gauges and mics for machining. I borrow em when I need to.. Sorry to get off topic..

[ishmael]

A Stanley forty five, in vg condition, in the wooden box (with a lid), and good assortment of cutters, in their boxes. Guy at a flea market wanted $75.00 for it, but someone else had said they wanted it and would be back with the money. I waited for about twenty minutes and the guy selling was just about to sell it to me, when the other fellow showed up. :rolleyes: Unforgetable.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

The really worst? An Atlas 10" metal lathe on the enclosed iron stand with the drawers and lots of accessories at a machine shop closeout... sold for 400 dollars canuckian... a friend bought it before I got there.. so at least it went to someone I know.

Hey Dave, I know where there is a benchtop Rong Fu milling machine for sale used... 800 bucks US.. and I am broke. :D figures. and yes there are an impressive little mill. built heavy.

[Dave Fleming]

PMJ
First the reference table question:
No, I have not seen a CI reference table usually it is a Granite Surface Plate for use with height gages and scribers and dial indicators.
Second: Rong Fu is the best of the Chiwan mill drills but I would not have one unless it has the square column. Round column, every time you move it, for precison, you will have to tram it in again!
IIRC, the square column is the RF-45.

[Dave Fleming]

Jack if you really really want a 45 or a 55 let me know.

[seafox61]

Rocky
I agree and latter on bought one from the forest service/GSA a speed graphic that still had shot film from a rangeland seeding project circa 1971 it came with a half dozen film holders cost $90 strangely enough a pawn shop in salt lake city had a bunch but wanted $600 each or the camera alone.
jeffery

[Ken Hutchins]

Surface plates were made of cast iron long before they were made out of granite. The cast iron plates were hand scrapped to attain flatness. To get the flatness on granite the plates have to be lapped with diamond powder which was prohibatively expensive prior to the invention of man made diamonds. The granite plates are more dimensionally stable and wear resistant.
Some shops, but many still use cast iron plates.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I have never seen a pattern making table before or since Tom's. It was a unusual thing with lots of wheels and adjustments underneath.. a big surface too... overall about 4 foot square, and looked like it weighed a ton.. really.

[Ken Hutchins]

Now for my sad story about the one that got away.
About 20 years ago I decided I really needed a thickness planer. Back then small home shop size planers were simply not in existance. I looked at several used old machines that were really beat, yet still way over what I could afford and they had 3 phase motors.
Finally Delta came to my rescue with a new 13 x 6 machine, the first of the now common home shop size machines. That cost me $1450, I couldn't afford it but bought it anyhow. My wife was not impressed but she eventually got over it.
We all know that I can buy a similar machine today for 1/3 the cost because the competitors jumped in the game. Good old supply and demand.
The machine didn't get away but the $$$ sure did.

[Dave Fleming]

Ken are you comparing a Delta floor model fully CI planer similar to:
http://www.general.ca/mini/130-1.jpg

With one of those Chiwan table top machines?

Granted there has been some decent work come out of one of those Chiwan machines but IMOOP, they don't make it compared to a full floor model.

It is the old story....you get what you pay for.

[Ron Williamson]

I know a guy who has a 30" planer that he was willing to trade for a new 12"lunchbox planer.I at the time had NO money(nor access to any).This machine is great,with a grinder attached and all.It was in his way and he wanted something handier.The only condition was that he would have wanted to use it for big stuff at any time,and that he is a bit of a kook.
The other things I missed were some really pretty shooting irons that a judge(!!!) was getting rid of prior to mandatory registration.He would have given them to me except that he had acquired them from a badguy and they had some "history".So his solution was to toss them into Lake Huron.The depth sounder said 120'and the GPS was at home and no I wasn't there.
R

[Dave Fleming]

Surface plates were made of cast iron long before they were made out of granite. The cast iron plates were hand scraped to attain flatness. Ayup, hand scraping is another mechanics 'art' that is fast disappearing, sigh.

Ever see some of the 'flaking' on an old machine tool? I know that flaking was more for decorative purposes than need but damn it sure makes things look snifty. Or so says I.

[David N.]

they didnt get away , I just cant remember where I put them .

Somewhere I have a set of babbitt bearing flies( scrappers ) all in an old wood box , the bigger ones are around 12" in length , flat's , spoon's , half rounds , and diamonds , wonder if i will ever see another babbitt bearing ?? , also wonder how many people would know what a bearing file is ?? . They are not " hi tec , rather "hi skill " .

About 20 yr's ago , i came across a portable key way cutter , that let's you cut or recut a key without pulling the shaft out ( or the boat ) it's around here somwhere !! .

I dont know if they still do it or not , but they used to hand sand in lathe way's

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by David N.:
Somewhere I have a set of babbitt bearing flies( scrappers ) all in an old wood box , the bigger ones are around 12" in length , flat's , spoon's , half rounds , and diamonds , wonder if i will ever see another babbitt bearing ?? , also wonder how many people would know what a bearing file is ?? . They are not " hi tec , rather "hi skill" .Hardwick's here in Seattle carries new Babbit scrapers. There are a lot of old band saws and the like with Babbit bearings. The question is...where do you get Babbit metal?

Silly me...google comes up with http://www.reade.com/Products/Alloys/babbitt.html -- babbitt powder, ingot and shot.

[TomRobb]

Grandfather, cabnetmaker/finish carpenter, retired and my father hauled home several trunkloads of tools for him. Grandfather died and the sons got the tools. All but a few are lost, loaned, forgotten - God knows where. Except for Dad, the sons didn't give a rat's ass. :mad:
Don't loan tools. If you have a will, give them to someone who will use them.

[Pete Dorr]

The Woodenboat CD.

If Fine Woodworking or Fine Homebuilding comes out with one I'm gonna grab it before it suffers the same fate.

[Dave Fleming]

Pete, IIRC, the FWW is out but I cannot say if it is cover to cover per issue or just a compliation of the best of each issue.
And of course that brings up, who's idea of the best of each issue???

[David N.]

Nicholas

Thanks for the heads up , as I do have a couple of turn of the century leather belt driven drill presses that have babbitt bearings they are " getting a little old " and might need to be replaced .
Looks like I will be heading over your way to build some boats ( yes yes yes ) although tomorrow I do have another horse trailer coming in for repair , the last one and they are some friends of mine . Got to have my boat building fix , need it more than coffee , gotta have it , from the CVK up .

[Art Read]

Been spending a lot of time helping my mother-in-law get ready to sell the home they've lived in for over forty years. Father-in-law passed a year ago, Christmas... He was the typical, depression era pack rat. Nothing EVER got thrown away. We have paid several hundred dollars just for privilege of hauling over three TONS of stuff to the landfill. (Mostly old, salvaged lumber that was intended for the woodstove but was allowed to start rotting instead, and the debris from four of the worst of the seven(!) out-buildings we had to tear down...)

But there was some good stuff as well. I got a nice, old, Milwaukee half inch "Hole Hog" with a great assortment of unusual bits, a neat little tool chest and even a vintage, bronze steering wheel of unknown origin, and my brother-in-law got some nice fishing gear, a heavy duty buffer and a stainless prop that probably came from the same place as the steering wheel. And then we all just kind of split up the various hand and edge tools and other, useful "guy stuff" between us and the rest of the "interested" members of the family.

What bugs me is some of the "big ticket" items that were specially "earmarked" for the son, and/or the grandson who one: have no use for, appreciation of or interest in these things, and two: haven't spent THEIR weekends the past few months, down there with B-i-L and I, in the crawl space under the house, replacing all the rotten floor and rim joists, or out in back, cleaning up the forty years worth of debris from the property. Hydraulic jacks, air compressor, complete socket sets, plunge router, belt driven grinder, etc. etc.... It's ALL just gone now. Given away or sold for pennies. The grandson has been just taking this stuff ever since his grandfather started failing and hocking it for beer money. (or worse) The son lives in an apartment and just gives everything that gets in his way to his buddies who "could use it"... One of the last things to go was a beautiful, old bench vise. The kind that costs a few hundred bucks these days, easy. Now I've been "getting by" with a crappy, little "clamp on" unit that I picked up for a couple of bucks for my project, but my brother-in-law has a "real" workshop set up with a decent vice of his own. He was going to take this one and give me his. While we under the house again last weekend, replacing yet MORE rotten wood found beneath the leaky bathroom, the son "drops by" for fifteen minutes, cuts down the old tree swing for a keepsake and disappears again. We didn't see him go into the work shop. Sure enough, the vice is gone. When we asked, "Oh yeah. My buddy could use that!" Grrrrr...

Thanks for letting me "vent". I feel much better now.

[ 03-08-2003, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Dave Fleming]

Art said...
Thanks for letting me "vent". I feel much better now.Yeah but now I feel your pain and frustration too!

<insert sympathetic smile here>

[Art Read]

Well, hey, Dave... Maybe between you and the rest of the gang over in "Resources/Products" holding my hand with that "throw away" table saw, I'll get a real "legacy" piece to remember the old guy after all! ;)

[Dave Fleming]

Art, I dunno about you but I get a bang out of restoring most anything. Boats, machines, hand tools, it's all good stuff.
And since I had such good mentors, I just have to tweak a thing just a skoch or two.
I, this week was handed a bunch of stuff, tool and tooling wise and am in the midst of evaluating what I got. A dandy, looks to me to be unused, 12 inch TCT dado blade set up to and including 1 1/8th inches, is one item. Bit of rust but will take it to saw sharpener and have them glass bead it to clean it up. Don't know that I ever again will have a 12/14 inch table saw but can't stand uncared for stuff so it will be cared for, folla?

[holzbt]

Hi Dave,
I know just the place you can store that 12" dado. ;) (As long as it is 1" bore.)

[Dave Fleming]

Roger, ayup 1 inch bore it is.
I just bought a PC model 3802 Chop type saw and will see if the single blades that were in the same bag will fit it.
The DADO set has the name, North American Saw Works or similar barely visable on some blades.

[bud]

Yikes! Didn't think I would be a "dying breed" this soon!
I, with my usual expert timing, went through pattern-making apprenticeship in 1972. Didn't make for much of a career but it sure taught me machinery & woodworking the right way.
An arcane patternmakers tool - the "shrink rule", set up to allow for the eventual shrinkage in the cast metal- different shrinks for steel, iron, aluminum etc. Once you started out with that rule, you better not forget and pick up another...

[Steve Redmond]

You might consider even making "the tool that got away". And patternmaking is one way to get there. It's not that difficult to cast parts for a metal plane, or metal and wood plane, or even a machine tool.

If you build a small cupola you can even cast in iron those surface plates you passed up. And grind them to a true surface by hand. Using the "method of threes." This requires 3 plates.

Plate A is ground against plate B until they match, though possibly one is concave and the other convex. Plate C is then ground against B, producing a plate similar to A. The similar plate, C is then ground against A, and this process continues to whatever degree of truth is required. Plates are also scraped.

And speaking of scrapers, they are still available through Enco at quite reasonable prices. Below is a picture of a metal lathe I built last winter, with the patterns and scrapers used to make it. It was built with hand tools, and hand scraped throughout.

Three of the various types of scrapers available from Enco are shown with the patterns. You can also make scrapers from hand files quite easily.

Light metal patterns were usually painted yellow, with black for the core prints, I think, but I happened to have a can of John Deere green. Just to prove I'm no stickler for tradition. I'm not a patternmaker -- this was my first casting and machining attempt.

-- Steve Redmond

http://www.sredmond.com/machine_images/LathePatterns_vsm.jpg

[ 03-10-2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Steve Redmond ]

[Dave Fleming]

Steve, that a Gingery pattern?

[Steve Redmond]

Dave,

Sure is. And it works great. It's everything it is supposed to be. I had a blast building it.

I recently designed and built a milling attachment for it. It has both horizontal and vertical milling components, a rotary indexing table, and a horizontal boring table.

I re-used some of the lathe patterns by building carriers that converted them to another function. The 6" lathe faceplate is also re-used in the milling attachment. I actually used the horizontal attachment to mill out the vertical components, so like the lathe it partially built itself.

It's amazing to realize what you can do, starting with nothing but a little scrap and some simple hand tools. And all those cutoff bits and ends from boatbuilding are fine pattern material. I doubt there is any wood required bigger than 7" in just about anything I've built.

I've started a page on this at my website. I hope to eventually make that a big section -- there is just a ton to write about, and it's a fascinating subject.

It's re-shaping my thinking about boats as well. I'd like to design something to utilize wood scrap in very short lengths. It's quite do-able, and I think I will.

-- Steve Redmond