Table saw? Band saw? Which?

[ErikH]

Here's the debate: If you had, oh, let's say about $1500, and you were buying NEW, what would you get?

For that price you can get:

1) Unisaw w/ 50" biesenmeyer. Or similar great tablesaw.

2) Kickass bandsaw: Laguna 16" ($1300), Jet 18" ($1100), Jet 20" ($1600), Grizzly 20" ($1600, a tad over but close) or 18" ($1300).

Or of course you can get a smaller table saw like a Craftsman, or a Delta contractor unit, for about 750. And a 14" bandsaw for about taht as well. So it would be possible to own lower-quality units and cover both bases.

Which to get? What if you wanted to use it for household projects and other building as well as boats?

And please let's not have 80 posts saying "well, I'd just pay 1/2 price and get top quality used units, etc etc". I KNOW that, of course. But even if you have $xxx to spend used, the same question applies-- should one get a used Oliver or Powermatic 66, a used 20" Laguna, or a combo of used unisaw and used jet 18? and so on down the $ scale.

I'm curious what everyone thinks.

E

[ErikH]

Here's the debate: If you had, oh, let's say about $1500, and you were buying NEW, what would you get?

For that price you can get:

1) Unisaw w/ 50" biesenmeyer. Or similar great tablesaw.

2) Kickass bandsaw: Laguna 16" ($1300), Jet 18" ($1100), Jet 20" ($1600), Grizzly 20" ($1600, a tad over but close) or 18" ($1300).

Or of course you can get a smaller table saw like a Craftsman, or a Delta contractor unit, for about 750. And a 14" bandsaw for about taht as well. So it would be possible to own lower-quality units and cover both bases.

Which to get? What if you wanted to use it for household projects and other building as well as boats?

And please let's not have 80 posts saying "well, I'd just pay 1/2 price and get top quality used units, etc etc". I KNOW that, of course. But even if you have $xxx to spend used, the same question applies-- should one get a used Oliver or Powermatic 66, a used 20" Laguna, or a combo of used unisaw and used jet 18? and so on down the $ scale.

I'm curious what everyone thinks.

E

[ErikH]

Here's the debate: If you had, oh, let's say about $1500, and you were buying NEW, what would you get?

For that price you can get:

1) Unisaw w/ 50" biesenmeyer. Or similar great tablesaw.

2) Kickass bandsaw: Laguna 16" ($1300), Jet 18" ($1100), Jet 20" ($1600), Grizzly 20" ($1600, a tad over but close) or 18" ($1300).

Or of course you can get a smaller table saw like a Craftsman, or a Delta contractor unit, for about 750. And a 14" bandsaw for about taht as well. So it would be possible to own lower-quality units and cover both bases.

Which to get? What if you wanted to use it for household projects and other building as well as boats?

And please let's not have 80 posts saying "well, I'd just pay 1/2 price and get top quality used units, etc etc". I KNOW that, of course. But even if you have $xxx to spend used, the same question applies-- should one get a used Oliver or Powermatic 66, a used 20" Laguna, or a combo of used unisaw and used jet 18? and so on down the $ scale.

I'm curious what everyone thinks.

E

[Scott Rosen]

If I had $1500 to spend on fixed power saws, I'd get a Delta contractor's saw and a band saw.

[Scott Rosen]

If I had $1500 to spend on fixed power saws, I'd get a Delta contractor's saw and a band saw.

[Scott Rosen]

If I had $1500 to spend on fixed power saws, I'd get a Delta contractor's saw and a band saw.

[Bruce Hooke]

I got along quite happily for many years with a tablesaw (Delta Unisaw) and no bandsaw. When I needed to cut curves I used a jigsaw. What finally motivated me to get a bandsaw was the desire to cut my own veneer. When I got a bandsaw I went for a 14" Delta (enclosed base) with a riser block to allow me to cut 12" wide veneer. I have been quite happy with this bandsaw.

As to why I started with a tablesaw:
I make a lot of dado cuts, or other cuts that don't go all the way through the board, which you can't do on a bandsaw. Also, I cut up a fair amount of plywood and other sheet goods, which you also can't do on a bandsaw. The tablesaw can also make rip cuts that take little or no clean-up before being glued-up. Also, on the tablesaw I can cut precise joints that don't require any clean-up, and I can cut them using production techniques like stop blocks and guides.

IMOOP a tablesaw is the "heart" of most cabinet/furniture shops. It is a production tool that gets a lot of stuff done efficiently. On the other hand, for building small, traditional boats a valid arguement can, I think, be made for the bandsaw being the more versitile tool. However, if you start getting into boats that need lots of interior cabinet type work then the tablesaw once again becomes central.

So, for the kinds of things I do -- a mix of boats, furniture, and other things -- I have been happy with the route I took, which was to get a top-quality tablesaw and later get a good-quality bandsaw. I certainly think that another viable route would be to get a good-quality tablesaw and a good-quality bandsaw. However, I wonder if $1500 might be not quite enough money to do that, especially when you consider that most tablesaws are all but useless without an upgraded fence and without a couple of high-quality blades. Certainly, a Delta Unisaw is probably overkill for most home users. Finally, if you don't need to do the kinds of things that a tablesaw does especially well then a bandsaw might be a good way to go.

[Bruce Hooke]

I got along quite happily for many years with a tablesaw (Delta Unisaw) and no bandsaw. When I needed to cut curves I used a jigsaw. What finally motivated me to get a bandsaw was the desire to cut my own veneer. When I got a bandsaw I went for a 14" Delta (enclosed base) with a riser block to allow me to cut 12" wide veneer. I have been quite happy with this bandsaw.

As to why I started with a tablesaw:
I make a lot of dado cuts, or other cuts that don't go all the way through the board, which you can't do on a bandsaw. Also, I cut up a fair amount of plywood and other sheet goods, which you also can't do on a bandsaw. The tablesaw can also make rip cuts that take little or no clean-up before being glued-up. Also, on the tablesaw I can cut precise joints that don't require any clean-up, and I can cut them using production techniques like stop blocks and guides.

IMOOP a tablesaw is the "heart" of most cabinet/furniture shops. It is a production tool that gets a lot of stuff done efficiently. On the other hand, for building small, traditional boats a valid arguement can, I think, be made for the bandsaw being the more versitile tool. However, if you start getting into boats that need lots of interior cabinet type work then the tablesaw once again becomes central.

So, for the kinds of things I do -- a mix of boats, furniture, and other things -- I have been happy with the route I took, which was to get a top-quality tablesaw and later get a good-quality bandsaw. I certainly think that another viable route would be to get a good-quality tablesaw and a good-quality bandsaw. However, I wonder if $1500 might be not quite enough money to do that, especially when you consider that most tablesaws are all but useless without an upgraded fence and without a couple of high-quality blades. Certainly, a Delta Unisaw is probably overkill for most home users. Finally, if you don't need to do the kinds of things that a tablesaw does especially well then a bandsaw might be a good way to go.

[Bruce Hooke]

I got along quite happily for many years with a tablesaw (Delta Unisaw) and no bandsaw. When I needed to cut curves I used a jigsaw. What finally motivated me to get a bandsaw was the desire to cut my own veneer. When I got a bandsaw I went for a 14" Delta (enclosed base) with a riser block to allow me to cut 12" wide veneer. I have been quite happy with this bandsaw.

As to why I started with a tablesaw:
I make a lot of dado cuts, or other cuts that don't go all the way through the board, which you can't do on a bandsaw. Also, I cut up a fair amount of plywood and other sheet goods, which you also can't do on a bandsaw. The tablesaw can also make rip cuts that take little or no clean-up before being glued-up. Also, on the tablesaw I can cut precise joints that don't require any clean-up, and I can cut them using production techniques like stop blocks and guides.

IMOOP a tablesaw is the "heart" of most cabinet/furniture shops. It is a production tool that gets a lot of stuff done efficiently. On the other hand, for building small, traditional boats a valid arguement can, I think, be made for the bandsaw being the more versitile tool. However, if you start getting into boats that need lots of interior cabinet type work then the tablesaw once again becomes central.

So, for the kinds of things I do -- a mix of boats, furniture, and other things -- I have been happy with the route I took, which was to get a top-quality tablesaw and later get a good-quality bandsaw. I certainly think that another viable route would be to get a good-quality tablesaw and a good-quality bandsaw. However, I wonder if $1500 might be not quite enough money to do that, especially when you consider that most tablesaws are all but useless without an upgraded fence and without a couple of high-quality blades. Certainly, a Delta Unisaw is probably overkill for most home users. Finally, if you don't need to do the kinds of things that a tablesaw does especially well then a bandsaw might be a good way to go.

[Dave Fleming]

Ah the eternal question which comes first the TS or the BS?
Need to put clearer qualifiers in there fella.
In other words, just how much time percentage wise do you see boat building vs. uptown carpentry?
In most boat shops I worked in the BS was KING.
Oh sure there was a TS but it sat back in a secondary spot. Now in yet other boat shops that did a lot of interior joinerwork there would be a dedicated area for mill work complete with BS, TS, shaper, planer and jointer etc., just for millwork.
For me personally, as above, the BS is primary and the TS is secondary.
But you have to decide just how often you are going to be doing that boatwork vs the housework.
And just what kind of boatwork at that!
I have NO experience with ***googe*** boatbuilding but from what I have seen a TS may be the better first choice.

Now on New Arhn vs Old Arhn. Lot to be said for the old North American stuff. From the Delta/Powermatic/General of Canada size to the Oliver/Tannewitz/Moak/Newman/Greenlee/Northfield size, there is stuff out there. Just have to dig for it and be prepared to do rebuilds from minor to major on it. That rebuild can become a project all in itself. Several good sites put up by folks chronicling their restoration efforts.
One the other hand there is some fine new stuff out there. General of Canada makes,IMOOP, the best of the smaller shop size arhn in North America. Laguna is not the only source for steel framed bandsoars in the 14 to 20 inch range.
On those European steel frame bandsoars, there has been much written about them. Might pay to do some research on the issue. A good source of first hand knowledge is the USENET newsgroup,rec.woodworking. GOOGLE has the archive of most of the previous postings of that group.

[Dave Fleming]

Ah the eternal question which comes first the TS or the BS?
Need to put clearer qualifiers in there fella.
In other words, just how much time percentage wise do you see boat building vs. uptown carpentry?
In most boat shops I worked in the BS was KING.
Oh sure there was a TS but it sat back in a secondary spot. Now in yet other boat shops that did a lot of interior joinerwork there would be a dedicated area for mill work complete with BS, TS, shaper, planer and jointer etc., just for millwork.
For me personally, as above, the BS is primary and the TS is secondary.
But you have to decide just how often you are going to be doing that boatwork vs the housework.
And just what kind of boatwork at that!
I have NO experience with ***googe*** boatbuilding but from what I have seen a TS may be the better first choice.

Now on New Arhn vs Old Arhn. Lot to be said for the old North American stuff. From the Delta/Powermatic/General of Canada size to the Oliver/Tannewitz/Moak/Newman/Greenlee/Northfield size, there is stuff out there. Just have to dig for it and be prepared to do rebuilds from minor to major on it. That rebuild can become a project all in itself. Several good sites put up by folks chronicling their restoration efforts.
One the other hand there is some fine new stuff out there. General of Canada makes,IMOOP, the best of the smaller shop size arhn in North America. Laguna is not the only source for steel framed bandsoars in the 14 to 20 inch range.
On those European steel frame bandsoars, there has been much written about them. Might pay to do some research on the issue. A good source of first hand knowledge is the USENET newsgroup,rec.woodworking. GOOGLE has the archive of most of the previous postings of that group.

[Dave Fleming]

Ah the eternal question which comes first the TS or the BS?
Need to put clearer qualifiers in there fella.
In other words, just how much time percentage wise do you see boat building vs. uptown carpentry?
In most boat shops I worked in the BS was KING.
Oh sure there was a TS but it sat back in a secondary spot. Now in yet other boat shops that did a lot of interior joinerwork there would be a dedicated area for mill work complete with BS, TS, shaper, planer and jointer etc., just for millwork.
For me personally, as above, the BS is primary and the TS is secondary.
But you have to decide just how often you are going to be doing that boatwork vs the housework.
And just what kind of boatwork at that!
I have NO experience with ***googe*** boatbuilding but from what I have seen a TS may be the better first choice.

Now on New Arhn vs Old Arhn. Lot to be said for the old North American stuff. From the Delta/Powermatic/General of Canada size to the Oliver/Tannewitz/Moak/Newman/Greenlee/Northfield size, there is stuff out there. Just have to dig for it and be prepared to do rebuilds from minor to major on it. That rebuild can become a project all in itself. Several good sites put up by folks chronicling their restoration efforts.
One the other hand there is some fine new stuff out there. General of Canada makes,IMOOP, the best of the smaller shop size arhn in North America. Laguna is not the only source for steel framed bandsoars in the 14 to 20 inch range.
On those European steel frame bandsoars, there has been much written about them. Might pay to do some research on the issue. A good source of first hand knowledge is the USENET newsgroup,rec.woodworking. GOOGLE has the archive of most of the previous postings of that group.

[gary porter]

I agree with Scott, you can do a lot of good work with a contractor saw especially if you do some simple mods on it. The 14" Delta Bandsaw has been a standard for many people for a long time. If you really get into it serious and feel the need you can always upgrade later. I built my house, my shop, my wifes studio, and the first couple of boats with a Delta contractor saw. I added the Unifence, link belt, balanced pullies, and a different switch. I have a PowerMatic 66 now but still have the Delta, also have the Laguna 16" bandsaw. Have fun.
Gary

[gary porter]

I agree with Scott, you can do a lot of good work with a contractor saw especially if you do some simple mods on it. The 14" Delta Bandsaw has been a standard for many people for a long time. If you really get into it serious and feel the need you can always upgrade later. I built my house, my shop, my wifes studio, and the first couple of boats with a Delta contractor saw. I added the Unifence, link belt, balanced pullies, and a different switch. I have a PowerMatic 66 now but still have the Delta, also have the Laguna 16" bandsaw. Have fun.
Gary

[gary porter]

I agree with Scott, you can do a lot of good work with a contractor saw especially if you do some simple mods on it. The 14" Delta Bandsaw has been a standard for many people for a long time. If you really get into it serious and feel the need you can always upgrade later. I built my house, my shop, my wifes studio, and the first couple of boats with a Delta contractor saw. I added the Unifence, link belt, balanced pullies, and a different switch. I have a PowerMatic 66 now but still have the Delta, also have the Laguna 16" bandsaw. Have fun.
Gary

[Scott Rosen]

If you shop around, you can find a Delta contractor's saw with an extension table and fence upgrade (Biesemeyer) for around $750, and a Delta 14" band saw for $750. That's right on your budget.
Table Saw (http://coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/delt/de36-431.htm?L+coastest+hxzw2763ffe50be5+1055361785)
Band Saw (http://coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/delt/de28299.htm?L+coastest+hxzw2763ffe50be5+1055361785 )

[Scott Rosen]

If you shop around, you can find a Delta contractor's saw with an extension table and fence upgrade (Biesemeyer) for around $750, and a Delta 14" band saw for $750. That's right on your budget.
Table Saw (http://coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/delt/de36-431.htm?L+coastest+hxzw2763ffe50be5+1055361785)
Band Saw (http://coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/delt/de28299.htm?L+coastest+hxzw2763ffe50be5+1055361785 )

[Scott Rosen]

If you shop around, you can find a Delta contractor's saw with an extension table and fence upgrade (Biesemeyer) for around $750, and a Delta 14" band saw for $750. That's right on your budget.
Table Saw (http://coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/delt/de36-431.htm?L+coastest+hxzw2763ffe50be5+1055361785)
Band Saw (http://coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/delt/de28299.htm?L+coastest+hxzw2763ffe50be5+1055361785 )

[Dale Genther]

My vote is for a Delta Contractors TS with a good blade and fence and a Delta BS. Thats the TS I have and it does everything I need it to. I have a Jet 14 in bandsaw, which I'm very happy with, but the Delta would fit into your $1500 budget.

[Dale Genther]

My vote is for a Delta Contractors TS with a good blade and fence and a Delta BS. Thats the TS I have and it does everything I need it to. I have a Jet 14 in bandsaw, which I'm very happy with, but the Delta would fit into your $1500 budget.

[Dale Genther]

My vote is for a Delta Contractors TS with a good blade and fence and a Delta BS. Thats the TS I have and it does everything I need it to. I have a Jet 14 in bandsaw, which I'm very happy with, but the Delta would fit into your $1500 budget.

[High C]

The main use of the table saw is ripping, and setting stuff on. ;)

The main use of the bandsaw is cutting curved shapes, and some ripping is possible, but it's less efficient at this than a table saw.

Unless I were ripping a bunch of planking, I'd find the bandsaw more useful in boatbuilding, and buy a cheap chop saw for crosscutting.

Unless you're working in very large stock and need large tools, $1500 is enough to buy BOTH tools, and of good quality.

[High C]

The main use of the table saw is ripping, and setting stuff on. ;)

The main use of the bandsaw is cutting curved shapes, and some ripping is possible, but it's less efficient at this than a table saw.

Unless I were ripping a bunch of planking, I'd find the bandsaw more useful in boatbuilding, and buy a cheap chop saw for crosscutting.

Unless you're working in very large stock and need large tools, $1500 is enough to buy BOTH tools, and of good quality.

[High C]

The main use of the table saw is ripping, and setting stuff on. ;)

The main use of the bandsaw is cutting curved shapes, and some ripping is possible, but it's less efficient at this than a table saw.

Unless I were ripping a bunch of planking, I'd find the bandsaw more useful in boatbuilding, and buy a cheap chop saw for crosscutting.

Unless you're working in very large stock and need large tools, $1500 is enough to buy BOTH tools, and of good quality.

[Mrleft8]

With a table saw, you can cut straight lines, crosscut (with a sled or miter guage) square ends, rabbet, dado, miter, bevel, and even do some fairly nice joinery work. With a bandsaw, you can resaw, and cut thick stock, rough cut rough stock to managable dimensions before surfacing, and cut curves.... (and trim firewood that's 2" too long for the woodstove, as well as parcel up frozen meat)
So, the obvious answer to your quandry is..... BOTH. :D

[Mrleft8]

With a table saw, you can cut straight lines, crosscut (with a sled or miter guage) square ends, rabbet, dado, miter, bevel, and even do some fairly nice joinery work. With a bandsaw, you can resaw, and cut thick stock, rough cut rough stock to managable dimensions before surfacing, and cut curves.... (and trim firewood that's 2" too long for the woodstove, as well as parcel up frozen meat)
So, the obvious answer to your quandry is..... BOTH. :D

[Mrleft8]

With a table saw, you can cut straight lines, crosscut (with a sled or miter guage) square ends, rabbet, dado, miter, bevel, and even do some fairly nice joinery work. With a bandsaw, you can resaw, and cut thick stock, rough cut rough stock to managable dimensions before surfacing, and cut curves.... (and trim firewood that's 2" too long for the woodstove, as well as parcel up frozen meat)
So, the obvious answer to your quandry is..... BOTH. :D

[Bruce Taylor]

The bandsaw is a beautiful thing and a pleasure to use -- essentially, a giant hand tool. I could live happily without a tablesaw, but the loss of my bandsaw would be a catastrophe.

This has to do with the sort of work I do. I work with undimensioned lumber, and the bandsaw is simply indispensable for resawing. With the BS, I can get three 1/4" planks out of a (generous) 4/4 board.

I frequently saw veneers from thin stock in expensive woods -- ebony, various rosewoods, etc. The bandsaw, with its narrow kerf, excels at this sort of work.

I cut a lot of joints with handtools (My time is short, and I'm too impatient to set up router and TS jigs). I use the bandsaw to cut waste from dovetail pins and tails. I cut tenons with the bandsaw, because I find I can cut and clean up a joint more quickly than I can clear the clutter off my tablesaw.

I make a lot of small, oddly shaped parts (quarter knees, guitar neck blanks and whatnot) and I rarely use sheet goods. The bandsaw is an obvious choice for a guy like me.

On the other hand, if I were working in a production cabinet shop, I'd want to do lots of accurate repeatable work. I might want to set up a stout jig, and feed MDF to it all day (or hire some schmuck who looks like he could stand to lose a few fingers). The tablesaw would be my best friend.

[Bruce Taylor]

The bandsaw is a beautiful thing and a pleasure to use -- essentially, a giant hand tool. I could live happily without a tablesaw, but the loss of my bandsaw would be a catastrophe.

This has to do with the sort of work I do. I work with undimensioned lumber, and the bandsaw is simply indispensable for resawing. With the BS, I can get three 1/4" planks out of a (generous) 4/4 board.

I frequently saw veneers from thin stock in expensive woods -- ebony, various rosewoods, etc. The bandsaw, with its narrow kerf, excels at this sort of work.

I cut a lot of joints with handtools (My time is short, and I'm too impatient to set up router and TS jigs). I use the bandsaw to cut waste from dovetail pins and tails. I cut tenons with the bandsaw, because I find I can cut and clean up a joint more quickly than I can clear the clutter off my tablesaw.

I make a lot of small, oddly shaped parts (quarter knees, guitar neck blanks and whatnot) and I rarely use sheet goods. The bandsaw is an obvious choice for a guy like me.

On the other hand, if I were working in a production cabinet shop, I'd want to do lots of accurate repeatable work. I might want to set up a stout jig, and feed MDF to it all day (or hire some schmuck who looks like he could stand to lose a few fingers). The tablesaw would be my best friend.

[Bruce Taylor]

The bandsaw is a beautiful thing and a pleasure to use -- essentially, a giant hand tool. I could live happily without a tablesaw, but the loss of my bandsaw would be a catastrophe.

This has to do with the sort of work I do. I work with undimensioned lumber, and the bandsaw is simply indispensable for resawing. With the BS, I can get three 1/4" planks out of a (generous) 4/4 board.

I frequently saw veneers from thin stock in expensive woods -- ebony, various rosewoods, etc. The bandsaw, with its narrow kerf, excels at this sort of work.

I cut a lot of joints with handtools (My time is short, and I'm too impatient to set up router and TS jigs). I use the bandsaw to cut waste from dovetail pins and tails. I cut tenons with the bandsaw, because I find I can cut and clean up a joint more quickly than I can clear the clutter off my tablesaw.

I make a lot of small, oddly shaped parts (quarter knees, guitar neck blanks and whatnot) and I rarely use sheet goods. The bandsaw is an obvious choice for a guy like me.

On the other hand, if I were working in a production cabinet shop, I'd want to do lots of accurate repeatable work. I might want to set up a stout jig, and feed MDF to it all day (or hire some schmuck who looks like he could stand to lose a few fingers). The tablesaw would be my best friend.

[Scott Rosen]

No doubt, Bruce, you're right.

My only fixed tool is a table saw. I get a lot of use out of it for house and boat stuff. But I'm not in the process of building a boat at the moment (or a guitar, for that matter).

What do you think about this? If I were to spend some money on fixed tools, I'd consider a good 6" jointer and a small, maybe even table-top, bandsaw. I'm thinking that virtually all of the things I would do on a band saw would be small in size, and I wouldn't need a 14"er. If I ever had a project that required a lot of resawing or making veneers (i.e., if I were to build a cold-molded boat), I could upgrade the bandsaw then. If I had to surface anything wider than 6", I could go over the local junior high shop.

Thoughts?

[Scott Rosen]

No doubt, Bruce, you're right.

My only fixed tool is a table saw. I get a lot of use out of it for house and boat stuff. But I'm not in the process of building a boat at the moment (or a guitar, for that matter).

What do you think about this? If I were to spend some money on fixed tools, I'd consider a good 6" jointer and a small, maybe even table-top, bandsaw. I'm thinking that virtually all of the things I would do on a band saw would be small in size, and I wouldn't need a 14"er. If I ever had a project that required a lot of resawing or making veneers (i.e., if I were to build a cold-molded boat), I could upgrade the bandsaw then. If I had to surface anything wider than 6", I could go over the local junior high shop.

Thoughts?

[Scott Rosen]

No doubt, Bruce, you're right.

My only fixed tool is a table saw. I get a lot of use out of it for house and boat stuff. But I'm not in the process of building a boat at the moment (or a guitar, for that matter).

What do you think about this? If I were to spend some money on fixed tools, I'd consider a good 6" jointer and a small, maybe even table-top, bandsaw. I'm thinking that virtually all of the things I would do on a band saw would be small in size, and I wouldn't need a 14"er. If I ever had a project that required a lot of resawing or making veneers (i.e., if I were to build a cold-molded boat), I could upgrade the bandsaw then. If I had to surface anything wider than 6", I could go over the local junior high shop.

Thoughts?

[Garrett Lowell]

I think you're spot-on, Scott. I own a 14" 3 wheel bench top, which works great for what I need. The knock is that they go through blades more often due to the 3rd wheel, but it hasn't been a problem for me, and the blades are only about $12.00 each.
As for the jointer, get one as big as you can afford.
Edited to say: I missed that about the junior high for large jointing issues.

[ 06-12-2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Garrett Lowell ]

[Garrett Lowell]

I think you're spot-on, Scott. I own a 14" 3 wheel bench top, which works great for what I need. The knock is that they go through blades more often due to the 3rd wheel, but it hasn't been a problem for me, and the blades are only about $12.00 each.
As for the jointer, get one as big as you can afford.
Edited to say: I missed that about the junior high for large jointing issues.

[ 06-12-2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Garrett Lowell ]

[Garrett Lowell]

I think you're spot-on, Scott. I own a 14" 3 wheel bench top, which works great for what I need. The knock is that they go through blades more often due to the 3rd wheel, but it hasn't been a problem for me, and the blades are only about $12.00 each.
As for the jointer, get one as big as you can afford.
Edited to say: I missed that about the junior high for large jointing issues.

[ 06-12-2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Garrett Lowell ]

[ErikH]

I was never taught to use--and thus never really use--a jointer. I know that it, um, "joints". As far as I can tell without knowing much, it seems like a thickness planer, but it doesn't necessarily make things flat (where "flat"="all the same thickness"). Supposedly it's not hard to end up with concave/conves stuff on a jointer (...?)

Basically, it looks to be the same cutterhead (as shown with combination machines) but you seem to have less control over a jointer. So why joint instead of planing? What am I missing? I can see it being handy for making board edges smooth prior to gluing, but then it seems immaterial whether you have a 4" or 10" jointer, unless you use a lot of 6" thick boards. And I know a lot of people want wide jointers.

Someone explain please....

[ErikH]

I was never taught to use--and thus never really use--a jointer. I know that it, um, "joints". As far as I can tell without knowing much, it seems like a thickness planer, but it doesn't necessarily make things flat (where "flat"="all the same thickness"). Supposedly it's not hard to end up with concave/conves stuff on a jointer (...?)

Basically, it looks to be the same cutterhead (as shown with combination machines) but you seem to have less control over a jointer. So why joint instead of planing? What am I missing? I can see it being handy for making board edges smooth prior to gluing, but then it seems immaterial whether you have a 4" or 10" jointer, unless you use a lot of 6" thick boards. And I know a lot of people want wide jointers.

Someone explain please....

[ErikH]

I was never taught to use--and thus never really use--a jointer. I know that it, um, "joints". As far as I can tell without knowing much, it seems like a thickness planer, but it doesn't necessarily make things flat (where "flat"="all the same thickness"). Supposedly it's not hard to end up with concave/conves stuff on a jointer (...?)

Basically, it looks to be the same cutterhead (as shown with combination machines) but you seem to have less control over a jointer. So why joint instead of planing? What am I missing? I can see it being handy for making board edges smooth prior to gluing, but then it seems immaterial whether you have a 4" or 10" jointer, unless you use a lot of 6" thick boards. And I know a lot of people want wide jointers.

Someone explain please....

[Pelican]

Take the 1500 - go to the nearest casino - put it on the pass line - let it ride 5 times - now you have plenty to buy all kind of tools :D

[Pelican]

Take the 1500 - go to the nearest casino - put it on the pass line - let it ride 5 times - now you have plenty to buy all kind of tools :D

[Pelican]

Take the 1500 - go to the nearest casino - put it on the pass line - let it ride 5 times - now you have plenty to buy all kind of tools :D

[cs]

Been holding out, cause I've about beat this to death, but look into the Grizzly line of products. I've been extremly pleased with mine, but I'm not an expert.

Chad

[cs]

Been holding out, cause I've about beat this to death, but look into the Grizzly line of products. I've been extremly pleased with mine, but I'm not an expert.

Chad

[cs]

Been holding out, cause I've about beat this to death, but look into the Grizzly line of products. I've been extremly pleased with mine, but I'm not an expert.

Chad

[Bruce Taylor]

Scott, if I had to choose, I would get a portable planer before I'd invest in a jointer. Jointing edges and flattening boards can be done efficiently with handtools, but thicknessing with handplanes (say, hogging a quarter inch off an eight foot long plank) is no fun at all.

If you are going to buy a bandsaw, I'd strongly urge you to buy a 14" saw (at least) with a heavy cast frame. It's not about power or capacity...it's about quality, accuracy, versatility, reliability...value for the money you spend.

Erik, planers thickness and surface boards but they do not normally flatten them (although there are a few tricks that permit you to use the planer to flatten cupped or warped boards...I use mine this way quite frequently). In addition to jointing edges (for gluing up tabletops, transoms, drawer fronts, etc.) the jointer can be used on the face of the board, to take some of the kinks out of it. The wider the bed, the wider the plank you can flatten.

[Bruce Taylor]

Scott, if I had to choose, I would get a portable planer before I'd invest in a jointer. Jointing edges and flattening boards can be done efficiently with handtools, but thicknessing with handplanes (say, hogging a quarter inch off an eight foot long plank) is no fun at all.

If you are going to buy a bandsaw, I'd strongly urge you to buy a 14" saw (at least) with a heavy cast frame. It's not about power or capacity...it's about quality, accuracy, versatility, reliability...value for the money you spend.

Erik, planers thickness and surface boards but they do not normally flatten them (although there are a few tricks that permit you to use the planer to flatten cupped or warped boards...I use mine this way quite frequently). In addition to jointing edges (for gluing up tabletops, transoms, drawer fronts, etc.) the jointer can be used on the face of the board, to take some of the kinks out of it. The wider the bed, the wider the plank you can flatten.

[Bruce Taylor]

Scott, if I had to choose, I would get a portable planer before I'd invest in a jointer. Jointing edges and flattening boards can be done efficiently with handtools, but thicknessing with handplanes (say, hogging a quarter inch off an eight foot long plank) is no fun at all.

If you are going to buy a bandsaw, I'd strongly urge you to buy a 14" saw (at least) with a heavy cast frame. It's not about power or capacity...it's about quality, accuracy, versatility, reliability...value for the money you spend.

Erik, planers thickness and surface boards but they do not normally flatten them (although there are a few tricks that permit you to use the planer to flatten cupped or warped boards...I use mine this way quite frequently). In addition to jointing edges (for gluing up tabletops, transoms, drawer fronts, etc.) the jointer can be used on the face of the board, to take some of the kinks out of it. The wider the bed, the wider the plank you can flatten.

[Bob Perkins]

If I'm doing a lot or house stuff and some boat stuff - Go with the big Unisaw and Beismeyer fence.

In fact, I did. I spent a lot of time (~1 year) debating back and forth between the Powermatic and the Delta. Finally - the voice of reason said, "The Delta design has been around forever and it works" The hardware is good.

That voice (John H.) was right. It is a great saw and value.

Even on my current project, because of the type of contruction, I've used the table saw more that the band saw. However, If I were doing a carvel or lapstrake hull - the bandsaw would move forward. (hopefully my next boat) smile.gif

[ 06-12-2003, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Bob Perkins ]

[Bob Perkins]

If I'm doing a lot or house stuff and some boat stuff - Go with the big Unisaw and Beismeyer fence.

In fact, I did. I spent a lot of time (~1 year) debating back and forth between the Powermatic and the Delta. Finally - the voice of reason said, "The Delta design has been around forever and it works" The hardware is good.

That voice (John H.) was right. It is a great saw and value.

Even on my current project, because of the type of contruction, I've used the table saw more that the band saw. However, If I were doing a carvel or lapstrake hull - the bandsaw would move forward. (hopefully my next boat) smile.gif

[ 06-12-2003, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Bob Perkins ]

[Bob Perkins]

If I'm doing a lot or house stuff and some boat stuff - Go with the big Unisaw and Beismeyer fence.

In fact, I did. I spent a lot of time (~1 year) debating back and forth between the Powermatic and the Delta. Finally - the voice of reason said, "The Delta design has been around forever and it works" The hardware is good.

That voice (John H.) was right. It is a great saw and value.

Even on my current project, because of the type of contruction, I've used the table saw more that the band saw. However, If I were doing a carvel or lapstrake hull - the bandsaw would move forward. (hopefully my next boat) smile.gif

[ 06-12-2003, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Bob Perkins ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Picking up on what Bruce said:

If you feed a board that is cupped, bowed or twisted* into a thickness planer it will (unless you use various fancy and somewhat time consuming workarounds) come out the other side thinner but still cupped, bowed or twisted. On a thick board, that the feed rollers on the thickness planer can't push flat, the planer will take out cup (curve across the width of the board), but it will still leave the board bowed and twisted.

Thus, the standard procedure is to first pass a board across the jointer until one side is flat and true -- in other words you have taken out any cup, bow and twist. THEN the board is fed through a thickness planer to take it down to a uniform thickness. In addition, the jointer can be used to true up one edge of the board before it is fed throught a tablesaw to make it a uniform width board.

While I agree with Bruce that taking 1/4" of wood off a board to take it down in thickness is a lot of work when done with hand tools, truing up a long, wide board with hand planes is no speedy (or easy) task either. If I have anything over 1/4" to take off a board I will generally try to take it off with a bandsaw so that I can save that 1/4" board for future use rather than turning it into wood chips.

That's why, as soon as I have space and money I am eager to get my hands on the widest jointer I can afford!

Now, it should be noted that on a lot of the parts used in boats bow and twist are not that important. Since many parts in boats are pulled into bowed and twisted positions anyway it hardly matters if the board is bowed and twisted to start with as long as it does not interfere with the layout work.

*Note:
"Cup" means a curve across the width of the board.
"Bow" means a curve along the length of the board.
"Twist" means the board is twisted if you sight down one of the wide faces.

[Bruce Hooke]

Picking up on what Bruce said:

If you feed a board that is cupped, bowed or twisted* into a thickness planer it will (unless you use various fancy and somewhat time consuming workarounds) come out the other side thinner but still cupped, bowed or twisted. On a thick board, that the feed rollers on the thickness planer can't push flat, the planer will take out cup (curve across the width of the board), but it will still leave the board bowed and twisted.

Thus, the standard procedure is to first pass a board across the jointer until one side is flat and true -- in other words you have taken out any cup, bow and twist. THEN the board is fed through a thickness planer to take it down to a uniform thickness. In addition, the jointer can be used to true up one edge of the board before it is fed throught a tablesaw to make it a uniform width board.

While I agree with Bruce that taking 1/4" of wood off a board to take it down in thickness is a lot of work when done with hand tools, truing up a long, wide board with hand planes is no speedy (or easy) task either. If I have anything over 1/4" to take off a board I will generally try to take it off with a bandsaw so that I can save that 1/4" board for future use rather than turning it into wood chips.

That's why, as soon as I have space and money I am eager to get my hands on the widest jointer I can afford!

Now, it should be noted that on a lot of the parts used in boats bow and twist are not that important. Since many parts in boats are pulled into bowed and twisted positions anyway it hardly matters if the board is bowed and twisted to start with as long as it does not interfere with the layout work.

*Note:
"Cup" means a curve across the width of the board.
"Bow" means a curve along the length of the board.
"Twist" means the board is twisted if you sight down one of the wide faces.

[Bruce Hooke]

Picking up on what Bruce said:

If you feed a board that is cupped, bowed or twisted* into a thickness planer it will (unless you use various fancy and somewhat time consuming workarounds) come out the other side thinner but still cupped, bowed or twisted. On a thick board, that the feed rollers on the thickness planer can't push flat, the planer will take out cup (curve across the width of the board), but it will still leave the board bowed and twisted.

Thus, the standard procedure is to first pass a board across the jointer until one side is flat and true -- in other words you have taken out any cup, bow and twist. THEN the board is fed through a thickness planer to take it down to a uniform thickness. In addition, the jointer can be used to true up one edge of the board before it is fed throught a tablesaw to make it a uniform width board.

While I agree with Bruce that taking 1/4" of wood off a board to take it down in thickness is a lot of work when done with hand tools, truing up a long, wide board with hand planes is no speedy (or easy) task either. If I have anything over 1/4" to take off a board I will generally try to take it off with a bandsaw so that I can save that 1/4" board for future use rather than turning it into wood chips.

That's why, as soon as I have space and money I am eager to get my hands on the widest jointer I can afford!

Now, it should be noted that on a lot of the parts used in boats bow and twist are not that important. Since many parts in boats are pulled into bowed and twisted positions anyway it hardly matters if the board is bowed and twisted to start with as long as it does not interfere with the layout work.

*Note:
"Cup" means a curve across the width of the board.
"Bow" means a curve along the length of the board.
"Twist" means the board is twisted if you sight down one of the wide faces.

[Bruce Taylor]

Oh, I agree, Bruce, believe me. Flattening boards by hand is a dull hobby.

I've done a lot of it, since I don't have a jointer (can't bring myself to buy one until I can afford a good big one).

I sometimes use the planer for flattening, w/ good results.

If the board is cupped, and thick enough, I'll just feed it to the planer with the convex side up and take a series of light cuts (keeping the platen pressure as low as possible). If there's any twist in the board, I'll knock it off w/ a handplane, flip the board and plane the concave side.

If the board is bowed, I put a long piece of melamine or MDF shelving over the planer bed and feed the stock over that, convex-side-up. I start the cut very light, and as the board enters the planer I gradually crank down the depth-of-cut handle (the platen will, of course, take the "spring" out of the board, but this doesn't matter...the important thing is to knock off the hump). When the center of the board leaves the blade, I start cranking the handle up, lightening the cut until the board spills out of the planer. If I'm careful, I get a face that is flat "overall", although it will have local irregularities. I then flip the board, feed it through concave-side-up a couple of times, and then flip it again to surface the first side.

It sounds funky, but it works, and it's nearly as fast as using a jointer.

Twist is another story. I usually take out twist by hand & eye, but when the job is really daunting I'll use a sled w/ wedges under the "raised" parts of the board, held in place with double-sided tape.

I can do this kind of stuff because OSHA can't stop me smile.gif

[ 06-12-2003, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Bruce Taylor]

Oh, I agree, Bruce, believe me. Flattening boards by hand is a dull hobby.

I've done a lot of it, since I don't have a jointer (can't bring myself to buy one until I can afford a good big one).

I sometimes use the planer for flattening, w/ good results.

If the board is cupped, and thick enough, I'll just feed it to the planer with the convex side up and take a series of light cuts (keeping the platen pressure as low as possible). If there's any twist in the board, I'll knock it off w/ a handplane, flip the board and plane the concave side.

If the board is bowed, I put a long piece of melamine or MDF shelving over the planer bed and feed the stock over that, convex-side-up. I start the cut very light, and as the board enters the planer I gradually crank down the depth-of-cut handle (the platen will, of course, take the "spring" out of the board, but this doesn't matter...the important thing is to knock off the hump). When the center of the board leaves the blade, I start cranking the handle up, lightening the cut until the board spills out of the planer. If I'm careful, I get a face that is flat "overall", although it will have local irregularities. I then flip the board, feed it through concave-side-up a couple of times, and then flip it again to surface the first side.

It sounds funky, but it works, and it's nearly as fast as using a jointer.

Twist is another story. I usually take out twist by hand & eye, but when the job is really daunting I'll use a sled w/ wedges under the "raised" parts of the board, held in place with double-sided tape.

I can do this kind of stuff because OSHA can't stop me smile.gif

[ 06-12-2003, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Bruce Taylor]

Oh, I agree, Bruce, believe me. Flattening boards by hand is a dull hobby.

I've done a lot of it, since I don't have a jointer (can't bring myself to buy one until I can afford a good big one).

I sometimes use the planer for flattening, w/ good results.

If the board is cupped, and thick enough, I'll just feed it to the planer with the convex side up and take a series of light cuts (keeping the platen pressure as low as possible). If there's any twist in the board, I'll knock it off w/ a handplane, flip the board and plane the concave side.

If the board is bowed, I put a long piece of melamine or MDF shelving over the planer bed and feed the stock over that, convex-side-up. I start the cut very light, and as the board enters the planer I gradually crank down the depth-of-cut handle (the platen will, of course, take the "spring" out of the board, but this doesn't matter...the important thing is to knock off the hump). When the center of the board leaves the blade, I start cranking the handle up, lightening the cut until the board spills out of the planer. If I'm careful, I get a face that is flat "overall", although it will have local irregularities. I then flip the board, feed it through concave-side-up a couple of times, and then flip it again to surface the first side.

It sounds funky, but it works, and it's nearly as fast as using a jointer.

Twist is another story. I usually take out twist by hand & eye, but when the job is really daunting I'll use a sled w/ wedges under the "raised" parts of the board, held in place with double-sided tape.

I can do this kind of stuff because OSHA can't stop me smile.gif

[ 06-12-2003, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Bruce -

Sounds like we do somewhat similar things, but I had not thought of adjusting the depth of cut as the board goes through the planer -- that's an interesting idea. I have built an 8' long table that my planer fits into. The surface the stock runs on is piece of MDF mounted on a torsion box type structure to keep it flat and true. I've been meaning to build some sort of sled to carry twisted boards but I haven't gotten around to it. To make it easier to deal with cup, bow and twist I usually try to cut up my stock into smaller pieces before I thickness it, but of course this means that planer snipe becomes a bigger issue...

Ah, for a 12" jointer!

P.S. I like your comment that "flattening boards by hand is a dull hobby." :D About all I can say for it is that it strengthens your arms and gives you lots of practice in sharpening!

[Bruce Hooke]

Bruce -

Sounds like we do somewhat similar things, but I had not thought of adjusting the depth of cut as the board goes through the planer -- that's an interesting idea. I have built an 8' long table that my planer fits into. The surface the stock runs on is piece of MDF mounted on a torsion box type structure to keep it flat and true. I've been meaning to build some sort of sled to carry twisted boards but I haven't gotten around to it. To make it easier to deal with cup, bow and twist I usually try to cut up my stock into smaller pieces before I thickness it, but of course this means that planer snipe becomes a bigger issue...

Ah, for a 12" jointer!

P.S. I like your comment that "flattening boards by hand is a dull hobby." :D About all I can say for it is that it strengthens your arms and gives you lots of practice in sharpening!

[Bruce Hooke]

Bruce -

Sounds like we do somewhat similar things, but I had not thought of adjusting the depth of cut as the board goes through the planer -- that's an interesting idea. I have built an 8' long table that my planer fits into. The surface the stock runs on is piece of MDF mounted on a torsion box type structure to keep it flat and true. I've been meaning to build some sort of sled to carry twisted boards but I haven't gotten around to it. To make it easier to deal with cup, bow and twist I usually try to cut up my stock into smaller pieces before I thickness it, but of course this means that planer snipe becomes a bigger issue...

Ah, for a 12" jointer!

P.S. I like your comment that "flattening boards by hand is a dull hobby." :D About all I can say for it is that it strengthens your arms and gives you lots of practice in sharpening!

[ErikH]

OK, now i've got another question: If a planer doesn't have the force to take out cup or twist, how do you do it on a jointer? Do you just hold the board lightly enough that the bowed center will get planed down, but not the raised ends (or vice versa?)

[ErikH]

OK, now i've got another question: If a planer doesn't have the force to take out cup or twist, how do you do it on a jointer? Do you just hold the board lightly enough that the bowed center will get planed down, but not the raised ends (or vice versa?)

[ErikH]

OK, now i've got another question: If a planer doesn't have the force to take out cup or twist, how do you do it on a jointer? Do you just hold the board lightly enough that the bowed center will get planed down, but not the raised ends (or vice versa?)

[Ken Hutchins]

It is not lack of force it is too much force with a planer. A cupped or twisted board needs to be cut flat basically in the free state, any force applied such as the feed rollers on a planer will let the board return to the cupped or twisted condition when the force is removed. The other problem is that the beds of most planers are too short. So the only way to get a flat board is to either run it through a jointer or hand&/or power portable plane on one side before running through the machine planer which does a great job of getting the second side parallel to the first side. Another trick if the board is not too bad is to made many fine cuts, flipping each time with the machine planer.

[Ken Hutchins]

It is not lack of force it is too much force with a planer. A cupped or twisted board needs to be cut flat basically in the free state, any force applied such as the feed rollers on a planer will let the board return to the cupped or twisted condition when the force is removed. The other problem is that the beds of most planers are too short. So the only way to get a flat board is to either run it through a jointer or hand&/or power portable plane on one side before running through the machine planer which does a great job of getting the second side parallel to the first side. Another trick if the board is not too bad is to made many fine cuts, flipping each time with the machine planer.

[Ken Hutchins]

It is not lack of force it is too much force with a planer. A cupped or twisted board needs to be cut flat basically in the free state, any force applied such as the feed rollers on a planer will let the board return to the cupped or twisted condition when the force is removed. The other problem is that the beds of most planers are too short. So the only way to get a flat board is to either run it through a jointer or hand&/or power portable plane on one side before running through the machine planer which does a great job of getting the second side parallel to the first side. Another trick if the board is not too bad is to made many fine cuts, flipping each time with the machine planer.

[Ken Hutchins]

Now back to your original question, I prefer band saw. But it depends on what your prime use will be.

[Ken Hutchins]

Now back to your original question, I prefer band saw. But it depends on what your prime use will be.

[Ken Hutchins]

Now back to your original question, I prefer band saw. But it depends on what your prime use will be.

[ErikH]

Well it may not be me making the choice. Fathers day on Sunday (my first one) and my birthday 4 days later. one can always hope... smile.gif

[ErikH]

Well it may not be me making the choice. Fathers day on Sunday (my first one) and my birthday 4 days later. one can always hope... smile.gif

[ErikH]

Well it may not be me making the choice. Fathers day on Sunday (my first one) and my birthday 4 days later. one can always hope... smile.gif

[ishmael]

Hope for a gift certificat Erik.

I worked in a shop with a bunch of small tools once. An eight inch table saw, a twelve inch Craftsman (ugh) bandsaw, a four inch Craftsman jointer jointer, and a small shaper. Lot's of good, tight work came out of that shop.

Big tools are nice, but it's sorta like the tennis player. The player makes the racket, not the racket the player.

As others have said, what are you thinking you are going to build?

[ishmael]

Hope for a gift certificat Erik.

I worked in a shop with a bunch of small tools once. An eight inch table saw, a twelve inch Craftsman (ugh) bandsaw, a four inch Craftsman jointer jointer, and a small shaper. Lot's of good, tight work came out of that shop.

Big tools are nice, but it's sorta like the tennis player. The player makes the racket, not the racket the player.

As others have said, what are you thinking you are going to build?

[ishmael]

Hope for a gift certificat Erik.

I worked in a shop with a bunch of small tools once. An eight inch table saw, a twelve inch Craftsman (ugh) bandsaw, a four inch Craftsman jointer jointer, and a small shaper. Lot's of good, tight work came out of that shop.

Big tools are nice, but it's sorta like the tennis player. The player makes the racket, not the racket the player.

As others have said, what are you thinking you are going to build?

[ishmael]

If a planer doesn't have the force to take out cup or twist, how do you do it on a jointer Not a matter of force but finesse.

It's difficult to describe, but the way to get the most out of a cupped/twisted board is to take the fence and guard off the jointer and use it to relieve the catawumpus corners, while keeping as much of the stock as possible. Creating a roughly flat surface with the jointer can be done on a suprisingly small tool unless you are working with really large flitches. A helper is sometimes necessary.

Another option, in some cases, is to rip some of the offending stock off an edge.

Difficult to describe. I could show you the basics in ten minutes.

[ 06-13-2003, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[ishmael]

If a planer doesn't have the force to take out cup or twist, how do you do it on a jointer Not a matter of force but finesse.

It's difficult to describe, but the way to get the most out of a cupped/twisted board is to take the fence and guard off the jointer and use it to relieve the catawumpus corners, while keeping as much of the stock as possible. Creating a roughly flat surface with the jointer can be done on a suprisingly small tool unless you are working with really large flitches. A helper is sometimes necessary.

Another option, in some cases, is to rip some of the offending stock off an edge.

Difficult to describe. I could show you the basics in ten minutes.

[ 06-13-2003, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[ishmael]

If a planer doesn't have the force to take out cup or twist, how do you do it on a jointer Not a matter of force but finesse.

It's difficult to describe, but the way to get the most out of a cupped/twisted board is to take the fence and guard off the jointer and use it to relieve the catawumpus corners, while keeping as much of the stock as possible. Creating a roughly flat surface with the jointer can be done on a suprisingly small tool unless you are working with really large flitches. A helper is sometimes necessary.

Another option, in some cases, is to rip some of the offending stock off an edge.

Difficult to describe. I could show you the basics in ten minutes.

[ 06-13-2003, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[D Gobby]

Erik for what its worth I got the saw that Scott mentioned earlier. I purchased the link belt and turned pulleys fot it. I also got a dial guage to square everything up. This saw will do anything I could ask of it. Starts and Stops with a nickel standing on edge. I've ripped 2" Anglique with it no problem. I also installed a quality thin kerf blade.
I've used it for building my first boat and made some cabinets for the house.
That should due for starters and then watch E-Bay for a quality Band Saw.
There can be some good buys if your patient and keep looking.
I recently found a Walker Turner 16" Bandsaw on E-Bay it will need some work,new tires etc. But for $350.00 I can deal with that.

Darrel

[D Gobby]

Erik for what its worth I got the saw that Scott mentioned earlier. I purchased the link belt and turned pulleys fot it. I also got a dial guage to square everything up. This saw will do anything I could ask of it. Starts and Stops with a nickel standing on edge. I've ripped 2" Anglique with it no problem. I also installed a quality thin kerf blade.
I've used it for building my first boat and made some cabinets for the house.
That should due for starters and then watch E-Bay for a quality Band Saw.
There can be some good buys if your patient and keep looking.
I recently found a Walker Turner 16" Bandsaw on E-Bay it will need some work,new tires etc. But for $350.00 I can deal with that.

Darrel

[D Gobby]

Erik for what its worth I got the saw that Scott mentioned earlier. I purchased the link belt and turned pulleys fot it. I also got a dial guage to square everything up. This saw will do anything I could ask of it. Starts and Stops with a nickel standing on edge. I've ripped 2" Anglique with it no problem. I also installed a quality thin kerf blade.
I've used it for building my first boat and made some cabinets for the house.
That should due for starters and then watch E-Bay for a quality Band Saw.
There can be some good buys if your patient and keep looking.
I recently found a Walker Turner 16" Bandsaw on E-Bay it will need some work,new tires etc. But for $350.00 I can deal with that.

Darrel

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by ErikH:
OK, now i've got another question: If a planer doesn't have the force to take out cup or twist, how do you do it on a jointer? Do you just hold the board lightly enough that the bowed center will get planed down, but not the raised ends (or vice versa?)You have it about right on the jointer technique -- you don't push the board down hard as it goes across the jointer -- you just try to hold it steady so that you can establish a flat face. Except on very thin boards this doesn't call for an especially light touch, you just don't want to lean down hard on the board. It is easy to do with cup and bowed boards because they will generally sit reasonably flat and stable with the concave side down. It is a little trickier with twisted boards that want to rock, but you don't have to get it just right on the first passes because as the board gets closer to flat on one side you also create a more stable surface to feed on. The easy route on twisted boards is to rock the board all the way to one side or the other, but this will mean that one corner is high off the table and so it will ultimately mean taking more wood off to get a flat face. Very twisted boards should ideally be cut into smaller pieces before jointing if the end-use for the board doesn't require a single long, wide board.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by ErikH:
OK, now i've got another question: If a planer doesn't have the force to take out cup or twist, how do you do it on a jointer? Do you just hold the board lightly enough that the bowed center will get planed down, but not the raised ends (or vice versa?)You have it about right on the jointer technique -- you don't push the board down hard as it goes across the jointer -- you just try to hold it steady so that you can establish a flat face. Except on very thin boards this doesn't call for an especially light touch, you just don't want to lean down hard on the board. It is easy to do with cup and bowed boards because they will generally sit reasonably flat and stable with the concave side down. It is a little trickier with twisted boards that want to rock, but you don't have to get it just right on the first passes because as the board gets closer to flat on one side you also create a more stable surface to feed on. The easy route on twisted boards is to rock the board all the way to one side or the other, but this will mean that one corner is high off the table and so it will ultimately mean taking more wood off to get a flat face. Very twisted boards should ideally be cut into smaller pieces before jointing if the end-use for the board doesn't require a single long, wide board.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by ErikH:
OK, now i've got another question: If a planer doesn't have the force to take out cup or twist, how do you do it on a jointer? Do you just hold the board lightly enough that the bowed center will get planed down, but not the raised ends (or vice versa?)You have it about right on the jointer technique -- you don't push the board down hard as it goes across the jointer -- you just try to hold it steady so that you can establish a flat face. Except on very thin boards this doesn't call for an especially light touch, you just don't want to lean down hard on the board. It is easy to do with cup and bowed boards because they will generally sit reasonably flat and stable with the concave side down. It is a little trickier with twisted boards that want to rock, but you don't have to get it just right on the first passes because as the board gets closer to flat on one side you also create a more stable surface to feed on. The easy route on twisted boards is to rock the board all the way to one side or the other, but this will mean that one corner is high off the table and so it will ultimately mean taking more wood off to get a flat face. Very twisted boards should ideally be cut into smaller pieces before jointing if the end-use for the board doesn't require a single long, wide board.

[Scott Rosen]

Bruce,

I don't understand why you say get a planer before a jointer. Isn't it possible to cut planks to thickness on a jointer as long as the plank is not wider than the blade.

Maybe my ignorance is showing. Please explain.

[Scott Rosen]

Bruce,

I don't understand why you say get a planer before a jointer. Isn't it possible to cut planks to thickness on a jointer as long as the plank is not wider than the blade.

Maybe my ignorance is showing. Please explain.

[Scott Rosen]

Bruce,

I don't understand why you say get a planer before a jointer. Isn't it possible to cut planks to thickness on a jointer as long as the plank is not wider than the blade.

Maybe my ignorance is showing. Please explain.

[Bruce Taylor]

Scott, for all I know there may be a way of making a jointer serve as a makeshift thicknesser (and, of course, you can buy combination machines that do both jobs).

However, simply passing wood over a jointer won't remove taper (either side-to-side or end-to-end). Your board will be thinner, over all, but it won't be evenly "thicknessed."

Maybe it's just the way I work, but there is no tool in either of my shops that sees more use than the planer. By the time I'm finished Blackfly, every piece of lumber in it (except the plywood, of course) will have passed through the planer. Yesterday, I needed to take a scarfed, epoxy-spattered 15' X 3/4" gunwale down to 11/16". I just fed the long floppy stick to the planer...the auto-feed pulled it in and spat it out again, clean and perfectly thicknessed. Later, I cut some joggled floors out of 1 1/2" cedar decking (on the bandsaw of course...great tool for cutting joggles) and then ran those through the planer until I liked how they looked. I reduced a 12" breasthook blank to 7/8" (couldn't have done that on the jointer). Finally, I thicknessed a strip of cherry to 1/8". None of those operations would have been easier on a jointer, and a couple of them would have been nearly impossible (or at least very unsafe).

The planer enables me to use locally milled lumber, recycled wood, or whatever odd stock I happen to have around. Feed an old signpost to your planer and a nice red cedar board comes out the other end! This saves me a lot of money and time.

So, that's my case for the planer. Maybe somebody else will have even nicer things to say about their jointer.

[Bruce Taylor]

Scott, for all I know there may be a way of making a jointer serve as a makeshift thicknesser (and, of course, you can buy combination machines that do both jobs).

However, simply passing wood over a jointer won't remove taper (either side-to-side or end-to-end). Your board will be thinner, over all, but it won't be evenly "thicknessed."

Maybe it's just the way I work, but there is no tool in either of my shops that sees more use than the planer. By the time I'm finished Blackfly, every piece of lumber in it (except the plywood, of course) will have passed through the planer. Yesterday, I needed to take a scarfed, epoxy-spattered 15' X 3/4" gunwale down to 11/16". I just fed the long floppy stick to the planer...the auto-feed pulled it in and spat it out again, clean and perfectly thicknessed. Later, I cut some joggled floors out of 1 1/2" cedar decking (on the bandsaw of course...great tool for cutting joggles) and then ran those through the planer until I liked how they looked. I reduced a 12" breasthook blank to 7/8" (couldn't have done that on the jointer). Finally, I thicknessed a strip of cherry to 1/8". None of those operations would have been easier on a jointer, and a couple of them would have been nearly impossible (or at least very unsafe).

The planer enables me to use locally milled lumber, recycled wood, or whatever odd stock I happen to have around. Feed an old signpost to your planer and a nice red cedar board comes out the other end! This saves me a lot of money and time.

So, that's my case for the planer. Maybe somebody else will have even nicer things to say about their jointer.

[Bruce Taylor]

Scott, for all I know there may be a way of making a jointer serve as a makeshift thicknesser (and, of course, you can buy combination machines that do both jobs).

However, simply passing wood over a jointer won't remove taper (either side-to-side or end-to-end). Your board will be thinner, over all, but it won't be evenly "thicknessed."

Maybe it's just the way I work, but there is no tool in either of my shops that sees more use than the planer. By the time I'm finished Blackfly, every piece of lumber in it (except the plywood, of course) will have passed through the planer. Yesterday, I needed to take a scarfed, epoxy-spattered 15' X 3/4" gunwale down to 11/16". I just fed the long floppy stick to the planer...the auto-feed pulled it in and spat it out again, clean and perfectly thicknessed. Later, I cut some joggled floors out of 1 1/2" cedar decking (on the bandsaw of course...great tool for cutting joggles) and then ran those through the planer until I liked how they looked. I reduced a 12" breasthook blank to 7/8" (couldn't have done that on the jointer). Finally, I thicknessed a strip of cherry to 1/8". None of those operations would have been easier on a jointer, and a couple of them would have been nearly impossible (or at least very unsafe).

The planer enables me to use locally milled lumber, recycled wood, or whatever odd stock I happen to have around. Feed an old signpost to your planer and a nice red cedar board comes out the other end! This saves me a lot of money and time.

So, that's my case for the planer. Maybe somebody else will have even nicer things to say about their jointer.

[Scott Rosen]

Okay. I get it now.

[Scott Rosen]

Okay. I get it now.

[Scott Rosen]

Okay. I get it now.

[ErikH]

Sounds like a good case for a combo machine. I notice the x31 has a 12" jointer and planer combo ;)

[ErikH]

Sounds like a good case for a combo machine. I notice the x31 has a 12" jointer and planer combo ;)

[ErikH]

Sounds like a good case for a combo machine. I notice the x31 has a 12" jointer and planer combo ;)

[ishmael]

Speaking of combination machines, I worked for a fellow who had a combination jointer, planer made by Makita. 12 inch and six (?) inch. It was a real work horse. When I first looked at it I wasn't impressed, but we cranked thousands of feet through that sucker, hardwood, softwood, and it never coughed. It had a very fast motor that gave an excellent finish. I guess the planer was similar to those 12 inch portables that are so popular.

[ishmael]

Speaking of combination machines, I worked for a fellow who had a combination jointer, planer made by Makita. 12 inch and six (?) inch. It was a real work horse. When I first looked at it I wasn't impressed, but we cranked thousands of feet through that sucker, hardwood, softwood, and it never coughed. It had a very fast motor that gave an excellent finish. I guess the planer was similar to those 12 inch portables that are so popular.

[ishmael]

Speaking of combination machines, I worked for a fellow who had a combination jointer, planer made by Makita. 12 inch and six (?) inch. It was a real work horse. When I first looked at it I wasn't impressed, but we cranked thousands of feet through that sucker, hardwood, softwood, and it never coughed. It had a very fast motor that gave an excellent finish. I guess the planer was similar to those 12 inch portables that are so popular.

[Bruce Taylor]

This the one, Jack?

http://www.woodworking.com/articles/images/makitaplaner.jpg

A review, here: http://www.woodworking.com/articles/index.cfm?fa=show&id=138

Yow!...just checked the street price of that thing: $2499 (list price was over $4000). My portable planer--a tough little Delta--was a little over $300 CAN. :eek:

[ 06-13-2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Bruce Taylor]

This the one, Jack?

http://www.woodworking.com/articles/images/makitaplaner.jpg

A review, here: http://www.woodworking.com/articles/index.cfm?fa=show&id=138

Yow!...just checked the street price of that thing: $2499 (list price was over $4000). My portable planer--a tough little Delta--was a little over $300 CAN. :eek:

[ 06-13-2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Bruce Taylor]

This the one, Jack?

http://www.woodworking.com/articles/images/makitaplaner.jpg

A review, here: http://www.woodworking.com/articles/index.cfm?fa=show&id=138

Yow!...just checked the street price of that thing: $2499 (list price was over $4000). My portable planer--a tough little Delta--was a little over $300 CAN. :eek:

[ 06-13-2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Bruce Hooke]

One thing to be careful about on the combo machines -- for best results on a planer you want long infeed and outfeed surfaces to help guide the board, and many of the combo machines seem to compromise heavily in this area. This is especially an issue with long pieces of wood where you have to support the wood that is hanging out off the table as you start and finish the pass. Sure you can use a roller of some sort but it has to be lined up EXACTLY with the table to get really good results.

This is not to say that the combo machines are not right for the right person -- you should just go into it aware of the compromise you are making. Also, of course, you want to be sure that the switchover between the planer and jointer is speedy because there are many situations where you might want to go back and forth between the two.

[Bruce Hooke]

One thing to be careful about on the combo machines -- for best results on a planer you want long infeed and outfeed surfaces to help guide the board, and many of the combo machines seem to compromise heavily in this area. This is especially an issue with long pieces of wood where you have to support the wood that is hanging out off the table as you start and finish the pass. Sure you can use a roller of some sort but it has to be lined up EXACTLY with the table to get really good results.

This is not to say that the combo machines are not right for the right person -- you should just go into it aware of the compromise you are making. Also, of course, you want to be sure that the switchover between the planer and jointer is speedy because there are many situations where you might want to go back and forth between the two.

[Bruce Hooke]

One thing to be careful about on the combo machines -- for best results on a planer you want long infeed and outfeed surfaces to help guide the board, and many of the combo machines seem to compromise heavily in this area. This is especially an issue with long pieces of wood where you have to support the wood that is hanging out off the table as you start and finish the pass. Sure you can use a roller of some sort but it has to be lined up EXACTLY with the table to get really good results.

This is not to say that the combo machines are not right for the right person -- you should just go into it aware of the compromise you are making. Also, of course, you want to be sure that the switchover between the planer and jointer is speedy because there are many situations where you might want to go back and forth between the two.

[Scott Rosen]

So, getting back to Erik's orignal question, he should get a band saw, table saw, planer and jointer.

His only problem was that he was asking the wrong question and his budget is nowhere near big enough. ;)

[Scott Rosen]

So, getting back to Erik's orignal question, he should get a band saw, table saw, planer and jointer.

His only problem was that he was asking the wrong question and his budget is nowhere near big enough. ;)

[Scott Rosen]

So, getting back to Erik's orignal question, he should get a band saw, table saw, planer and jointer.

His only problem was that he was asking the wrong question and his budget is nowhere near big enough. ;)

[ishmael]

Bruce,

Like that, but more crude. Your picture looks like a development, a more stolid mechanism, though I recognize the roots.

I think Chris paid about 1200 skins USD for his, about twenty years ago.

I'm trying to remember, but I think Chris' had a homemade wooden stand.

And looking again the machine, the jointer, because the bed is below the top of the planer, is maybe less handy than it might be, especially for the work I was telling Erik about, of using it to relieve catawumpus obstructions to flatness. I'll have to read the review.

[ 06-15-2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[ishmael]

Bruce,

Like that, but more crude. Your picture looks like a development, a more stolid mechanism, though I recognize the roots.

I think Chris paid about 1200 skins USD for his, about twenty years ago.

I'm trying to remember, but I think Chris' had a homemade wooden stand.

And looking again the machine, the jointer, because the bed is below the top of the planer, is maybe less handy than it might be, especially for the work I was telling Erik about, of using it to relieve catawumpus obstructions to flatness. I'll have to read the review.

[ 06-15-2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[ishmael]

Bruce,

Like that, but more crude. Your picture looks like a development, a more stolid mechanism, though I recognize the roots.

I think Chris paid about 1200 skins USD for his, about twenty years ago.

I'm trying to remember, but I think Chris' had a homemade wooden stand.

And looking again the machine, the jointer, because the bed is below the top of the planer, is maybe less handy than it might be, especially for the work I was telling Erik about, of using it to relieve catawumpus obstructions to flatness. I'll have to read the review.

[ 06-15-2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Dutch Rub]

Get the table saw. There aint much I cant do with the Jig saw that I can with my bandsaw, only easier with the bandsaw.

[Dutch Rub]

Get the table saw. There aint much I cant do with the Jig saw that I can with my bandsaw, only easier with the bandsaw.

[Dutch Rub]

Get the table saw. There aint much I cant do with the Jig saw that I can with my bandsaw, only easier with the bandsaw.

[Dutch Rub]

Boat builders dont need jointers-them are for cabinet shops.

[Dutch Rub]

Boat builders dont need jointers-them are for cabinet shops.

[Dutch Rub]

Boat builders dont need jointers-them are for cabinet shops.

[ErikH]

I think I should be all set with a $15,000 Felder combinatino machine, and that 42" resaw bandsaw I posted on another thread. Or do you think that's overkill for model building? :D

[ErikH]

I think I should be all set with a $15,000 Felder combinatino machine, and that 42" resaw bandsaw I posted on another thread. Or do you think that's overkill for model building? :D

[ErikH]

I think I should be all set with a $15,000 Felder combinatino machine, and that 42" resaw bandsaw I posted on another thread. Or do you think that's overkill for model building? :D

[htom]

It depends, of course (it always depends.)

If you're going to be building using carvel or lapstrake with real wood, the bandsaw first, followed by the jointer, the planer, and finally the tablesaw.

Otherwise, the tablesaw first.

[htom]

It depends, of course (it always depends.)

If you're going to be building using carvel or lapstrake with real wood, the bandsaw first, followed by the jointer, the planer, and finally the tablesaw.

Otherwise, the tablesaw first.

[htom]

It depends, of course (it always depends.)

If you're going to be building using carvel or lapstrake with real wood, the bandsaw first, followed by the jointer, the planer, and finally the tablesaw.

Otherwise, the tablesaw first.

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

If I had $1,500 then I'd just buy a boat at this point! Of course when I started building my skiff in December the major selling point was that since we couldn't afford to purchase a sailboat then by golly ol' Dad is just gonna build him one. The family is gonna have a boat one way or the other! Now having spent $1,800 on the whole project I find myself discretely throwing away receipts from Home Depot...

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

If I had $1,500 then I'd just buy a boat at this point! Of course when I started building my skiff in December the major selling point was that since we couldn't afford to purchase a sailboat then by golly ol' Dad is just gonna build him one. The family is gonna have a boat one way or the other! Now having spent $1,800 on the whole project I find myself discretely throwing away receipts from Home Depot...

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

If I had $1,500 then I'd just buy a boat at this point! Of course when I started building my skiff in December the major selling point was that since we couldn't afford to purchase a sailboat then by golly ol' Dad is just gonna build him one. The family is gonna have a boat one way or the other! Now having spent $1,800 on the whole project I find myself discretely throwing away receipts from Home Depot...

[Keith Wilson]

My .02; I'd get both. They're quite different tools with very different uses, for all that they both cut wood. You can get a pretty decent bandsaw and tablesaw for $1500 - not first class "heavy ahrn" by any means, but certainly good enough for what I do. I'd rather have both of lower but still acceptable quality than only one really good machine.

[Keith Wilson]

My .02; I'd get both. They're quite different tools with very different uses, for all that they both cut wood. You can get a pretty decent bandsaw and tablesaw for $1500 - not first class "heavy ahrn" by any means, but certainly good enough for what I do. I'd rather have both of lower but still acceptable quality than only one really good machine.

[Keith Wilson]

My .02; I'd get both. They're quite different tools with very different uses, for all that they both cut wood. You can get a pretty decent bandsaw and tablesaw for $1500 - not first class "heavy ahrn" by any means, but certainly good enough for what I do. I'd rather have both of lower but still acceptable quality than only one really good machine.

[ishmael]

I agree with Keith. You could have good copies of the original Delta ten inch contractor's saw and open stand 14 inch bandsoar, for about a grand, delivered. They are probably as good as the originals and you'll be a long time outgrowing 'em.

Spend the rest on a good plunge router and some wood and away ya go.

Not being flippant, it's true. A jointer and planer could wait, buy a few hand planes and learn to use them. A planer will follow soon if you're as lazy as me. :rolleyes: smile.gif

[ 06-15-2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[ishmael]

I agree with Keith. You could have good copies of the original Delta ten inch contractor's saw and open stand 14 inch bandsoar, for about a grand, delivered. They are probably as good as the originals and you'll be a long time outgrowing 'em.

Spend the rest on a good plunge router and some wood and away ya go.

Not being flippant, it's true. A jointer and planer could wait, buy a few hand planes and learn to use them. A planer will follow soon if you're as lazy as me. :rolleyes: smile.gif

[ 06-15-2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[ishmael]

I agree with Keith. You could have good copies of the original Delta ten inch contractor's saw and open stand 14 inch bandsoar, for about a grand, delivered. They are probably as good as the originals and you'll be a long time outgrowing 'em.

Spend the rest on a good plunge router and some wood and away ya go.

Not being flippant, it's true. A jointer and planer could wait, buy a few hand planes and learn to use them. A planer will follow soon if you're as lazy as me. :rolleyes: smile.gif

[ 06-15-2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[ishmael]

Oh, and Scott.

A jointer just doesn't work as a planer. Not that with lots of attention one couldn't make a board flat and reasonably uniform in thickness with a jointer, but it would be a PIA, and subject to all manner of error.

A good planer will uniformly turn out stock, to within 1/128 tolerance, or better.

Gosh, I can feel a shop coming on. I love this stuff. :D

[ishmael]

Oh, and Scott.

A jointer just doesn't work as a planer. Not that with lots of attention one couldn't make a board flat and reasonably uniform in thickness with a jointer, but it would be a PIA, and subject to all manner of error.

A good planer will uniformly turn out stock, to within 1/128 tolerance, or better.

Gosh, I can feel a shop coming on. I love this stuff. :D

[ishmael]

Oh, and Scott.

A jointer just doesn't work as a planer. Not that with lots of attention one couldn't make a board flat and reasonably uniform in thickness with a jointer, but it would be a PIA, and subject to all manner of error.

A good planer will uniformly turn out stock, to within 1/128 tolerance, or better.

Gosh, I can feel a shop coming on. I love this stuff. :D

[George Roberts]

ErikH ----

Considering that you need to cut a lot of wood to keep those machines busy, I think you are setting your machine budget too high.

Buy a 10" contractors saw and a thicknessing device (I prefer a sander but a planer is useful for thick stuff.)

Find some wood to cut it up.

(Half of the machines in my shop have not been used in the past year and many will never be used again.)

[George Roberts]

ErikH ----

Considering that you need to cut a lot of wood to keep those machines busy, I think you are setting your machine budget too high.

Buy a 10" contractors saw and a thicknessing device (I prefer a sander but a planer is useful for thick stuff.)

Find some wood to cut it up.

(Half of the machines in my shop have not been used in the past year and many will never be used again.)

[George Roberts]

ErikH ----

Considering that you need to cut a lot of wood to keep those machines busy, I think you are setting your machine budget too high.

Buy a 10" contractors saw and a thicknessing device (I prefer a sander but a planer is useful for thick stuff.)

Find some wood to cut it up.

(Half of the machines in my shop have not been used in the past year and many will never be used again.)