Easypoxy/Pettit paint question

[wingnut]

Well this last sunday was the big day. After hours and hours of sanding and preping the boat (headwater 16 power dory) i was ready for some paint! I was truely excited to see the outcome. So i painted on sunday...the temp. was around 50 deg. outside with pending rain, but i wasn't to concerned since i had the shop all heated up and was ready to give her a go. So paint i did.
but, i think i put the paint on to thick! Now it didn't run or anything but, as of this morning (almost 48 hours) the paint is still tacky! Not come off on your finger when you touch it but, sticky/tacky. The can says i should have been able to sand after 24 hours @ 50 deg.. My shop heater was set at 60-63 deg. so i would have thought the paint would have cured enough to sand and do another coat.
The only thing i can come up with is i put the paint on to thick. the can of paint also mentioned the humidity but, i didn't think i had to worry a whole lot since the shop was heated and dry inside (so i didn't think i had to worry about the humidty level to much).
So my question is, should i let the paint sit a few more days and keep my fingers crossed that it drys or did i screw up and am i looking at having to do it over again? Any answers would be appreciated.
thanks in advance

Wingnut (the painting greenhorn)

[Bill Perkins]

I had a similar experience with the product once . I was painting over epoxy and I was in my damp basement . After a week it was still tacky .It was Summer in Atlanta and in desperation I took the piece outside to cook in the direct sunlight all one day . The dark green got too hot to touch , but it kicked and is still on there years later .I'd try heat lamps .

[Buddy]

I have used this paint. You didn't mention primer. While for little jobs its feasible to use the top finish enamel, thinened about 25% for p=better pnetration of the first coat, its preferable to use the maker's recommended primer right on bare wood, even two or more coats, each sanded to get a "perfect" base for your more expensive enamel. I'll bet your unthinned paint will finally cure in several more days so don't panic. No dew fell on the tacky finish did it? Your shop isn't heated with a kerosene or gasoline heater is it? That can put out a hydrocarbon film which will slow things done and can spoil adhesion of the next coat if not cleaned off.

[Mike Vogdes]

Over the years I have had similar problems with both Easy/poxy and Brightsides in similar conditions. It will eventually dry, probably in a day or two. They both like to be applied thin with the roll and tip method. lots of muss and fuss with their thinners and primer too.

I have seen the light last year after reading numerous posts about Kirby's paint. Kirby's is by far much easier to use with very pleasing results, best of all you don't need a magnifying glass to read the instructions. I believe Kirby's instructions are clean surface, open can, put on paint..
Exageration ofcourse but not too far off. They are very nice people and very easy to deal with.

[John Bell]

What did you paint over? Bare wood, epoxy/wood, epoxy/glass, primer?

I do know that some paints take a long time to cure over certain epoxies. It's happened to me, that's for sure. And I've heard rumors that some will never cure over epoxy. Probably the best thing to do now is keep the cat out of your workshop and give it some time. It will harden eventually. And if it is epoxy inhibiting the cure, you can expect subsequent coats to dry a lot faster than the first. But you've go to let the first coat harden up before you can recoat, so be patient.

This is a little too late for you, but now I always heed the paint mfg's advice and do a test patch to test compatibility before comitting to the whole boat. And I've found that primers really help out a lot. Don't paint over something that you haven't primed if you can help it.

[wingnut]

Wow,
i post this before i go to lunch and come back to 4 responses! Thank you all! Well, some good news. I went home and checked the boat at lunch time. Things are looking better. The paint is starting harden. It's still tacky but, better than it was when i left for work this morning.

Now to clear things up a bit and answer a few questions asked (sorry about not haveing enough detail) The boat is epoxy over fiberglass. I have an electric heater in the shop that gets the shop plenty warm. No dew fell on the paint.
This may be a sin, but i did not use primer. I was told by the place i bought the paint from that i wouldn't need a primer for my application. He said that the first coat of paint would "act" as the primer, i was skeptical but took his advice (could be a crock, but it's to late now) i did however rough up the the surface so that the paint shouldn't have a problem sticking to it.
I did do a test panel and it seems to have turned out fine. I think i just got a little greedy with the paint sprayer.
From what i've read i'll give it some more time and see what happens but, after touching it at lunch time it looks like things are going to turn out o.k.. Thank you all for the help it is greatly appreciated.

Wingnut (now a self-proclaimed paint expert, with the help of others :D )

[NormMessinger]

Well, Mike all I have to base my preconcieved misconceptions on is George Kirby's word. No primer needed over epoxy. Does that apply only to his paint which is good stuff but not that different from any enamel? Kinda runs in my mind that I also talked to the tech support line guy at either Petit or Interlux.

[thebob]

Hi wingnut for what it's worth I think that the problem here is that the air in the workshop may have been nice and toasty but the boat was still cold.

As you stated that the temp was 50 on Sunday I imagine that overnight lows were way below that.

Warming up the workshop really just warmed up the air in the shop.

I think you really need to warm up the shop for a day or so, and keep the temp there until the paint goes off.

Or try an electric blanket in the hull to directly heat it.

Next time use a thermometer in contact with the hull I think you will be suprised at how cold it is.

If the paint hasn't kicked yet, just keep it warm and it will.

[Buddy]

Echoing other good scoop that arrived already:
1) Yes, most enamels will dry on top of most epoxies, once any blush has been washed away and the surface at least scuffed with a Scocthbrite pad.
BUT, there are some brands that don't cooperate with each other, so a test is always in order.
2) That said, I would always prime first- less work and less cost of materials in order to get a more nearly fault free surface to topcoat. Adhesion is almost always improved and your paint "system" will endure longer. Repainting down the road will be easier.
3) Briteside doesn't apply and hide nearly as well as some other "marine" brands: I prefer the Pettit as well, choosing from the boat stores. I haven't tried Kirby, but then I'm not painting traditional wooden boats. I wouldn't go so far as to throw out Briteside I had in hand, but for the top money they ask, it isn't top dog or best value for any performance trait I can assess.

[wingnut]

well,
time for another update. My patience is wearing thin. After checking the boat at lunch time yesterday i thought i may be in luck and the paint was getting harder (more like wishful thinking on my part) because after checking the paint last night after work...no change. So i set the heat up around 70 deg. and go to bed, hopeing for the best this morning. Well, i was up bright and early hopeing to find some curing paint in the shop....No such luck, still the same! I've now given the paint a deadline (and a few choice words) if it hasn't set up by sat. morning...off it comes! I'll go down and get some PRIMER and use that (after the 40 lashes of course) first and go from there.
I still don't know why this truely happened...There are lots of could b's.. humidity to high, paint to thick,...on and on...
All i know is the paint doesn't seem to be curing and i'm now thinking it's not going to.
Feel free to add any more suggestions or comments.

Wingnut

[RonW]

I just, (almost) finished a boat and used a epoxy paint also.I used a one part epoxy by armor epoxy out of new jersey, a industrial and marine grade epoxy -supposedly.They are on the internet.When i painted the outside of the hull in early Sept, outside and in direct sunlight, with high temperatures, it still took 4 or 5 days before i could add a second coat, and was actually tacky for 3 days. I called the company and asked about this, ( as well as the stuff being so thick) and they told me it would take days to cure, and in the fall with lower temperatures and higher humidity a week or more would be reasonable. When it does dry and cure it seems to be really tough and highly abrasion resistance, but thats a month down the road. I would suggest giving it several more days and even set up a fan to circulate some air.The epoxy paints seem to be good paint, but very long and slow cure time. I believe my next boat will be prime-prime-kirby-kirby..

[Lulworth]

Well, I've been waiting to see someone else say it and no go so here's a very very likely scenario. You painted over an epoxy that cures with an amine blush. West definitely suffers from amine blush and the fast cure versions of many others (MAS for example) also blush. This waxy, though water soluble, reaction product migrates to the surface of the wet paint and prevents the paint from fully curing. I had a miserable experience with easypoxy (a one part polyurathane with no connection at all to epoxy despite the name) and a freshly built kayak about 15 years ago and now I wash all expoxy-coated surfaces with warm soapy water and a scrub brush before painting. Check out amine blush in the search and you'll fnd a fuller chemical description of the expoy cure process and its interference with paint by "the chemist". Water (as in a moist atmosphere) makes the blush worse. As a point of reference, last month I painted my frostbite boat (penguin) in low 50F weather with Brightsides polyurathane and it was dry when I sailed the boat less than 24 hours later.

Sorry to say, you've got to wipe off the wet paint, wipe down the surface with multiple solvent soaked rags, give it a water (or vinegar) washdown and paint again. Also, polyurathanes are practically transparent and go down very thin, you have to prime the surface, you absolutely have to (I know this from another miserable experience with brightsides and easypoxy.

Cheers,

David.

[ 12-10-2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Lulworth ]

[wingnut]

Well after reading lulworths post the light bulb went off. I won't go into the details (unless asked to).
so to mike, i went and bought the mineral spirits at lunch and tonight i will remove the paint. I also bought the primer. So hopefully the next time i report will be with a sucessful painting experience.
Thanks to all that have replied, it is truely appreciated.
Thank you again,
wingnut (a member of the "school of hard knocks")

[WOODZOWL]

Hi Wingnut;
There is a magic number of "7 days", this is the time between green epoxy to paint. High humidity, may make this even longer. Wet sanding with amonia in the water "cleans" while you sand. There are some paints and varnishes that do not like to dry over epoxy. Thats why some manufactures sell paints that are compatable with their epoxy. Polyurethane base paints seem to dry better than old fashion enamel. Primer may not be the answer! Jerry

[John Bell]

Originally posted by wingnut:
Well after reading lulworths post the light bulb went off. I won't go into the details (unless asked to).
so to mike, i went and bought the mineral spirits at lunch and tonight i will remove the paint. Ouch! If you take a few moments in the moaning chair, well, you've certainly earned them. :(

This may be one for the FAQ...

[wingnut]

Jerry,
You've got it. Let's just say i didn't quite wait the 7 days (i should have known better but, that honestly slipped my mind at the time)
The test panel i painted set up nicely (without a primer on it) but the difference between the test panel and the boat was that the test panel had had epoxy on it for several months and had the blush removed long ago.
As for the primer, well i'm going to play it safe and use it.
As for the moaning chair, well it got some use last night before i started to strip the paint off.
Thanks to all and i will give a report after the next paint experience.

wingnut, (now where's my paint brush at)

p.s.-Jerry i still have to mail you something, regarding some plans. I'll try and remember to do that.

[Buddy]

As I said in my last post...."once you have washed any blush away. Is this the detail you are sparing us? If not, it won't hurt to give it more time if you are not facing a deadline. Sorry to hear of your trouble, but glad for you its not a 50 footer.
I once, twenty years ago, was making a deck mold for a 22 foot fiberglass sailboat from a "perfect, but somewhat delicate " plug" and the gelcoat didn't kick. Lots of fingerpointing and anguish, but if was finally agreed it was a defective batch. "But surely you did a test with a small batch to see if it would cure before you used our product?" asked the Glidden folks. What a mess getting it all out of the nonskid pattern. Didn't know all the horrors of acetone back then- just thought it was a fire hazard and needed to be used with adequate ventilation. Wear your gloves. In truth I never did get that plug back to original. The acetone ruined a lot of the lacquer on the plaster, softened some lacquer putty fills, etc. But that's another story.
I rarely use polyester anymore, but outside of WEST googe, I have learned to always test catalysed products. But then you did a test too.
Troubles like this, the 5% "just because" black magic voodoo difficulties lurking out there have shyed many folks away from DIY boat building. Hang in there.

[warthog5]

I didn;t read everyone's imput on this, but you said you may have put it on TO THICK.
I don't have to think about this. I know you did!
It's the number one mistake people make.

There was something about you didn't prime it. After your done with taking your 40 lashes and be keel hauled, the real work will begin. Strip it and start over!
Now when you get back to it being time to paint. You want to put a bunch of coats on VERY THIN. I'm talking you will be able to see thru each coat and it will take about 4 coats until you have a decent finish.

[warthog5]

Here's a buddy of mine that did the same thing.
He ended up stripping it and started over.

http://www.classicmako.com/projects/ed_ring/transom_rebuild16.htm

[wingnut]

well,
here is a little update. As for what happened for the paint not to cure. I didn't let the epoxy sit long enough to cure. So when i painted over the epoxy the paint reacted with the blush that the epoxy was still produceing. I let the epoxy sit for four days but, as woodzowl said i didn't wait the magical 7 days. the epoxy was hard to the touch but, obviously hadn't cure totaly. Add to that (as said several times) a paint layer that was to thick, it led to disaster.

So i stripped the paint all off using mike's suggestions and the paint came off like butter! I then spent the next day or so resanding the whole outside of the boat. I left the heat on to make sure the hull stayed warm and was ready for primer on sat.
So Saturday i primed the boat using a roller (the spray gun was calling to me but, i resisted knowing i would put thinner coats on using the roller) so the primer was painted and all is well. the primer is hard as a rock, and was put on thin. I will add a couple more coats of primer through the week. Then it will be time to try painting again.
i'll let you all know how the paint turns out when done.

I want to thank eveyone again for the help and insight.

Thanks,
Wingnut

[John Bell]

For best results, sand between primer coats and again before applying topcoat. But you already knew that!

[Nicholas Carey]

Don't forget that with modern paints, most of the film thickness is primer.

The glossy [color] topcoat is just a relatively thin layer applied on top of a relatively thick layer of primer.