Seacocks

[Wilson Fitt]

I hesitate to ask a question about seacocks and ball valves, but trust that all forumites will rise above the temptation toward juvenile guffaws and retorts and treat it with the seriousness that blah blah blah....

Anyway, when I built our boat, I used Buck Algonquin flange base bronze body, chromed bronze ball seacocks throughout. They are the standard stock item with the local suppliers and seemed, without any research beyond a price comparison, to be a reasonable choice.

Within about 8 months of first launching, in the course of a regular "does this thing still work?" test, the one on the head outlet pipe (no other of course!) froze half way shut. Application of force to the handle only resulted in rounding off the little flats on the stem in much the same way that I am accustomed to doing to a nut with a cresent wrench or vice grips.

We were in Antigua at the time, leaving shortly for Nova Scotia via Bermuda. We set out with utmost faith in tapered softwood plugs and being careful with what went down the proverbial pipe. To no avail. The GD thing clogged up twice while en route, requiring calls to the local plumber. Luckily, his services were only needed in relatively calm weather. I discovered that water does indeed come in a 1 1/2 hole at a remarkable rate even when it is half closed, and the force is sufficient to send whatever was clogging it to the nether reaches of the bilge.

But enough details. I'm sure you get the picture.

Later, when we hauled out, I replaced the offending seacock and noted that the ball was quite pitted, perhaps with the chrome departing from the bronze. Sent it to Buck Algonquin, spoke to them on the phone and got a "gee, never saw that happen before" and an offer to replace it. Too late of course. I had already replaced it because we only haul long enough to paint and do other underwater stuff then re-launch right away.

Now all these seacocks are 3 1/2 years old. The big ones are all stiff and at least two of them leak quite a bit even when the handle is in the fully off position. I'm not happy and think that I should replace all of the seacocks.

Finally, the question: what brand should I go to? I have the impression that Groco is the top of the market. They have bronze body and stainless steel balls (like any good sailor man) and are certainly the top of the price scale at about $US110 each for a 1 1/2" compared to Buck Algonquin at $US50. Won't touch plastic.

This is an expensive business: there are seven 1 1/2" seacocks (four cockpit drains, two bilge pumps and one head outlet), two 1" (galley and head sinks) and two 3/4" (head and engine intakes). I know, I know: try to consolidate them with manifolds etc etc, but that's the way it is.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[ 01-19-2003, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Wilson Fitt ]

[Wilson Fitt]

I hesitate to ask a question about seacocks and ball valves, but trust that all forumites will rise above the temptation toward juvenile guffaws and retorts and treat it with the seriousness that blah blah blah....

Anyway, when I built our boat, I used Buck Algonquin flange base bronze body, chromed bronze ball seacocks throughout. They are the standard stock item with the local suppliers and seemed, without any research beyond a price comparison, to be a reasonable choice.

Within about 8 months of first launching, in the course of a regular "does this thing still work?" test, the one on the head outlet pipe (no other of course!) froze half way shut. Application of force to the handle only resulted in rounding off the little flats on the stem in much the same way that I am accustomed to doing to a nut with a cresent wrench or vice grips.

We were in Antigua at the time, leaving shortly for Nova Scotia via Bermuda. We set out with utmost faith in tapered softwood plugs and being careful with what went down the proverbial pipe. To no avail. The GD thing clogged up twice while en route, requiring calls to the local plumber. Luckily, his services were only needed in relatively calm weather. I discovered that water does indeed come in a 1 1/2 hole at a remarkable rate even when it is half closed, and the force is sufficient to send whatever was clogging it to the nether reaches of the bilge.

But enough details. I'm sure you get the picture.

Later, when we hauled out, I replaced the offending seacock and noted that the ball was quite pitted, perhaps with the chrome departing from the bronze. Sent it to Buck Algonquin, spoke to them on the phone and got a "gee, never saw that happen before" and an offer to replace it. Too late of course. I had already replaced it because we only haul long enough to paint and do other underwater stuff then re-launch right away.

Now all these seacocks are 3 1/2 years old. The big ones are all stiff and at least two of them leak quite a bit even when the handle is in the fully off position. I'm not happy and think that I should replace all of the seacocks.

Finally, the question: what brand should I go to? I have the impression that Groco is the top of the market. They have bronze body and stainless steel balls (like any good sailor man) and are certainly the top of the price scale at about $US110 each for a 1 1/2" compared to Buck Algonquin at $US50. Won't touch plastic.

This is an expensive business: there are seven 1 1/2" seacocks (four cockpit drains, two bilge pumps and one head outlet), two 1" (galley and head sinks) and two 3/4" (head and engine intakes). I know, I know: try to consolidate them with manifolds etc etc, but that's the way it is.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[ 01-19-2003, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Wilson Fitt ]

[Wilson Fitt]

I hesitate to ask a question about seacocks and ball valves, but trust that all forumites will rise above the temptation toward juvenile guffaws and retorts and treat it with the seriousness that blah blah blah....

Anyway, when I built our boat, I used Buck Algonquin flange base bronze body, chromed bronze ball seacocks throughout. They are the standard stock item with the local suppliers and seemed, without any research beyond a price comparison, to be a reasonable choice.

Within about 8 months of first launching, in the course of a regular "does this thing still work?" test, the one on the head outlet pipe (no other of course!) froze half way shut. Application of force to the handle only resulted in rounding off the little flats on the stem in much the same way that I am accustomed to doing to a nut with a cresent wrench or vice grips.

We were in Antigua at the time, leaving shortly for Nova Scotia via Bermuda. We set out with utmost faith in tapered softwood plugs and being careful with what went down the proverbial pipe. To no avail. The GD thing clogged up twice while en route, requiring calls to the local plumber. Luckily, his services were only needed in relatively calm weather. I discovered that water does indeed come in a 1 1/2 hole at a remarkable rate even when it is half closed, and the force is sufficient to send whatever was clogging it to the nether reaches of the bilge.

But enough details. I'm sure you get the picture.

Later, when we hauled out, I replaced the offending seacock and noted that the ball was quite pitted, perhaps with the chrome departing from the bronze. Sent it to Buck Algonquin, spoke to them on the phone and got a "gee, never saw that happen before" and an offer to replace it. Too late of course. I had already replaced it because we only haul long enough to paint and do other underwater stuff then re-launch right away.

Now all these seacocks are 3 1/2 years old. The big ones are all stiff and at least two of them leak quite a bit even when the handle is in the fully off position. I'm not happy and think that I should replace all of the seacocks.

Finally, the question: what brand should I go to? I have the impression that Groco is the top of the market. They have bronze body and stainless steel balls (like any good sailor man) and are certainly the top of the price scale at about $US110 each for a 1 1/2" compared to Buck Algonquin at $US50. Won't touch plastic.

This is an expensive business: there are seven 1 1/2" seacocks (four cockpit drains, two bilge pumps and one head outlet), two 1" (galley and head sinks) and two 3/4" (head and engine intakes). I know, I know: try to consolidate them with manifolds etc etc, but that's the way it is.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[ 01-19-2003, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Wilson Fitt ]

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Sounds like a corrosion that is not inherent in the bronze, but I am not an expert on current leakage and grounding.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Sounds like a corrosion that is not inherent in the bronze, but I am not an expert on current leakage and grounding.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Sounds like a corrosion that is not inherent in the bronze, but I am not an expert on current leakage and grounding.

[Wilson Fitt]

I thought of electrolytic corrosion but don't think so. The 12v electrical system is grounded to the ballast keel and there is no 110 system. The seacocks live in quiet isolation from every other metal fitting. No sign of unusual electrical or corrosive activity anywhere.

[Wilson Fitt]

I thought of electrolytic corrosion but don't think so. The 12v electrical system is grounded to the ballast keel and there is no 110 system. The seacocks live in quiet isolation from every other metal fitting. No sign of unusual electrical or corrosive activity anywhere.

[Wilson Fitt]

I thought of electrolytic corrosion but don't think so. The 12v electrical system is grounded to the ballast keel and there is no 110 system. The seacocks live in quiet isolation from every other metal fitting. No sign of unusual electrical or corrosive activity anywhere.

[Hwyl]

Groco used to make a tapered valve seacock. It was all bronze (same material throughout makes sense right?) when it was in the open or closed position there was a "t" handled threaded affair at the skinny end of the taper that tightened the taper into the housing.Similarly you loosened the "t" bar to open or close it. When you had the chance they were exeptionally easy to take apart and grease. I looked for these on google, they don't seem to be made anymore. I liked them.

[ 01-19-2003, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[Hwyl]

Groco used to make a tapered valve seacock. It was all bronze (same material throughout makes sense right?) when it was in the open or closed position there was a "t" handled threaded affair at the skinny end of the taper that tightened the taper into the housing.Similarly you loosened the "t" bar to open or close it. When you had the chance they were exeptionally easy to take apart and grease. I looked for these on google, they don't seem to be made anymore. I liked them.

[ 01-19-2003, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[Hwyl]

Groco used to make a tapered valve seacock. It was all bronze (same material throughout makes sense right?) when it was in the open or closed position there was a "t" handled threaded affair at the skinny end of the taper that tightened the taper into the housing.Similarly you loosened the "t" bar to open or close it. When you had the chance they were exeptionally easy to take apart and grease. I looked for these on google, they don't seem to be made anymore. I liked them.

[ 01-19-2003, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[ion barnes]

I think your problem is with the plated ball. Try to find a unit with a stainless ball. The plated one may have not been cleaned porperly before plating.

[ion barnes]

I think your problem is with the plated ball. Try to find a unit with a stainless ball. The plated one may have not been cleaned porperly before plating.

[ion barnes]

I think your problem is with the plated ball. Try to find a unit with a stainless ball. The plated one may have not been cleaned porperly before plating.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

You want proper taper bore bronze seacocks, as noted above, not those ball valve affairs.

Been there, done that thing, as our Australian friends say. Replaced a pair of 1 1/2" ball valves on the cockpit drains with real seacocks two years ago after similar problems. All seacocks on the boat are now the real thing and I have had no more trouble.

If no-one in the USA makes them any more, you can get them from:

http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/

who made mine

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

You want proper taper bore bronze seacocks, as noted above, not those ball valve affairs.

Been there, done that thing, as our Australian friends say. Replaced a pair of 1 1/2" ball valves on the cockpit drains with real seacocks two years ago after similar problems. All seacocks on the boat are now the real thing and I have had no more trouble.

If no-one in the USA makes them any more, you can get them from:

http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/

who made mine

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

You want proper taper bore bronze seacocks, as noted above, not those ball valve affairs.

Been there, done that thing, as our Australian friends say. Replaced a pair of 1 1/2" ball valves on the cockpit drains with real seacocks two years ago after similar problems. All seacocks on the boat are now the real thing and I have had no more trouble.

If no-one in the USA makes them any more, you can get them from:

http://www.blakes-lavac-taylors.co.uk/

who made mine

[Meerkat]

That quiet isolation that's spoken of can be the cause of electrolytic corrosion. Being isolated, there can be a difference in potential. I thought that all metal fittings, above or below the water line should be bonded together to avoid differences in electrical potential? I know I have seen this done with copper strapping glued or epoxied to the inside of the hull with a flexible braid to connect to the fitting.

[Meerkat]

That quiet isolation that's spoken of can be the cause of electrolytic corrosion. Being isolated, there can be a difference in potential. I thought that all metal fittings, above or below the water line should be bonded together to avoid differences in electrical potential? I know I have seen this done with copper strapping glued or epoxied to the inside of the hull with a flexible braid to connect to the fitting.

[Meerkat]

That quiet isolation that's spoken of can be the cause of electrolytic corrosion. Being isolated, there can be a difference in potential. I thought that all metal fittings, above or below the water line should be bonded together to avoid differences in electrical potential? I know I have seen this done with copper strapping glued or epoxied to the inside of the hull with a flexible braid to connect to the fitting.

[mmd]

No,Meerkat, that idea has taken quite a beating in the past few years, especially when applied to wooden hulls. I believe that there was a discussion here on the topic, but there has been quite a dialogue in Professional Boatbuilder on bonding, as well as commentary by Giffy Full in WB #115.

[mmd]

No,Meerkat, that idea has taken quite a beating in the past few years, especially when applied to wooden hulls. I believe that there was a discussion here on the topic, but there has been quite a dialogue in Professional Boatbuilder on bonding, as well as commentary by Giffy Full in WB #115.

[mmd]

No,Meerkat, that idea has taken quite a beating in the past few years, especially when applied to wooden hulls. I believe that there was a discussion here on the topic, but there has been quite a dialogue in Professional Boatbuilder on bonding, as well as commentary by Giffy Full in WB #115.

[Ross Faneuf]

Just BTW, there's nothing inherently unsound about ball valves, as long as they're properly built out of the right materials; in that case, they are almost certainly superior to the old-fashioned seacock most of the time. (Nothing like an inflammatory opionion, eh?)

For instance, ball valves are used almost exclusively in both low-pressure and high-pressure piping systems on USN nuclear submarines. We're talking seriously high-end of course.

Like seacocks, most ball valves require periodic lubrication, unless you are using seriously high-end valves. But even relatively cheap valves with solid stainless balls should last well in most boats.

[Ross Faneuf]

Just BTW, there's nothing inherently unsound about ball valves, as long as they're properly built out of the right materials; in that case, they are almost certainly superior to the old-fashioned seacock most of the time. (Nothing like an inflammatory opionion, eh?)

For instance, ball valves are used almost exclusively in both low-pressure and high-pressure piping systems on USN nuclear submarines. We're talking seriously high-end of course.

Like seacocks, most ball valves require periodic lubrication, unless you are using seriously high-end valves. But even relatively cheap valves with solid stainless balls should last well in most boats.

[Ross Faneuf]

Just BTW, there's nothing inherently unsound about ball valves, as long as they're properly built out of the right materials; in that case, they are almost certainly superior to the old-fashioned seacock most of the time. (Nothing like an inflammatory opionion, eh?)

For instance, ball valves are used almost exclusively in both low-pressure and high-pressure piping systems on USN nuclear submarines. We're talking seriously high-end of course.

Like seacocks, most ball valves require periodic lubrication, unless you are using seriously high-end valves. But even relatively cheap valves with solid stainless balls should last well in most boats.

[Roger Cumming]

In the USA it was Wilcox-Crittenden that made tapered cone seacocks. Our sailboat was built in 1981 and has them. They are a low-tech device, easily taken apart for maintenance and greasing, and relatively foolproof. They are all bronze which discourages corrosion from dissimilar metals, and very rugged. W-C had helpful articles in its old catalogs giving info on proper installation and maintenance. The last time I looked W-C was offering only a few items for sale, nothing like their old line. And of course no more seacocks.

I sometimes think about the day the efficiency experts came to review W-C's product line. At one time they made 2 sizes of "Helmsman's folding seat", one with mahaogany seat, the other in aluminum. There was also a folding lavatory which emptied when folded up and could be drained into the toilet via a small hose, avoiding another through hull. There was a "petite" cabin lamp, polished brass, gimbaled, for $18.50 (1973). There was a separate line of galvanized "industrial hardware". I am certain the block head management consultants didn't even know what most of the hardware was for. They probably didn't care, either.

Even our plastic boats sail in salt water. What kind of seacocks are installed in those "Picnic Boats" we see in magazines?. For $500,000 one would expect something better than plastic ball valves that corrode after 3 years. But then I am probably just another old fool living in the past.

[Roger Cumming]

In the USA it was Wilcox-Crittenden that made tapered cone seacocks. Our sailboat was built in 1981 and has them. They are a low-tech device, easily taken apart for maintenance and greasing, and relatively foolproof. They are all bronze which discourages corrosion from dissimilar metals, and very rugged. W-C had helpful articles in its old catalogs giving info on proper installation and maintenance. The last time I looked W-C was offering only a few items for sale, nothing like their old line. And of course no more seacocks.

I sometimes think about the day the efficiency experts came to review W-C's product line. At one time they made 2 sizes of "Helmsman's folding seat", one with mahaogany seat, the other in aluminum. There was also a folding lavatory which emptied when folded up and could be drained into the toilet via a small hose, avoiding another through hull. There was a "petite" cabin lamp, polished brass, gimbaled, for $18.50 (1973). There was a separate line of galvanized "industrial hardware". I am certain the block head management consultants didn't even know what most of the hardware was for. They probably didn't care, either.

Even our plastic boats sail in salt water. What kind of seacocks are installed in those "Picnic Boats" we see in magazines?. For $500,000 one would expect something better than plastic ball valves that corrode after 3 years. But then I am probably just another old fool living in the past.

[Roger Cumming]

In the USA it was Wilcox-Crittenden that made tapered cone seacocks. Our sailboat was built in 1981 and has them. They are a low-tech device, easily taken apart for maintenance and greasing, and relatively foolproof. They are all bronze which discourages corrosion from dissimilar metals, and very rugged. W-C had helpful articles in its old catalogs giving info on proper installation and maintenance. The last time I looked W-C was offering only a few items for sale, nothing like their old line. And of course no more seacocks.

I sometimes think about the day the efficiency experts came to review W-C's product line. At one time they made 2 sizes of "Helmsman's folding seat", one with mahaogany seat, the other in aluminum. There was also a folding lavatory which emptied when folded up and could be drained into the toilet via a small hose, avoiding another through hull. There was a "petite" cabin lamp, polished brass, gimbaled, for $18.50 (1973). There was a separate line of galvanized "industrial hardware". I am certain the block head management consultants didn't even know what most of the hardware was for. They probably didn't care, either.

Even our plastic boats sail in salt water. What kind of seacocks are installed in those "Picnic Boats" we see in magazines?. For $500,000 one would expect something better than plastic ball valves that corrode after 3 years. But then I am probably just another old fool living in the past.

[ion barnes]

Some of those 'plastic seecocks' are actually reinforced resin and are rated by Lloyds for below the waterline. I think the trade name is Marlon.

[ion barnes]

Some of those 'plastic seecocks' are actually reinforced resin and are rated by Lloyds for below the waterline. I think the trade name is Marlon.

[ion barnes]

Some of those 'plastic seecocks' are actually reinforced resin and are rated by Lloyds for below the waterline. I think the trade name is Marlon.

[imported_Conrad]

I've found quite a selection of the tapered bronze seacocks on eBay at very reasonable prices. Groco (sp) seems to make the best ones- very heavy handles, wide bases, and lock nuts on the ends opposite the handle. While they may be considered old tech, they're all bronze, repairable, and I don't see how they could ever freeze up, since the tapered valve can be driven back with a mallet if need be. Here's a link to the last two I just bought, 1.5". The same seller had a set of 3/4" that went for about the same money. I've seen a lot of them come up, and finally decided to give up my facination with the ball valves and get the real thing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26449&item=2400190969&rd=1

[imported_Conrad]

I've found quite a selection of the tapered bronze seacocks on eBay at very reasonable prices. Groco (sp) seems to make the best ones- very heavy handles, wide bases, and lock nuts on the ends opposite the handle. While they may be considered old tech, they're all bronze, repairable, and I don't see how they could ever freeze up, since the tapered valve can be driven back with a mallet if need be. Here's a link to the last two I just bought, 1.5". The same seller had a set of 3/4" that went for about the same money. I've seen a lot of them come up, and finally decided to give up my facination with the ball valves and get the real thing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26449&item=2400190969&rd=1

[imported_Conrad]

I've found quite a selection of the tapered bronze seacocks on eBay at very reasonable prices. Groco (sp) seems to make the best ones- very heavy handles, wide bases, and lock nuts on the ends opposite the handle. While they may be considered old tech, they're all bronze, repairable, and I don't see how they could ever freeze up, since the tapered valve can be driven back with a mallet if need be. Here's a link to the last two I just bought, 1.5". The same seller had a set of 3/4" that went for about the same money. I've seen a lot of them come up, and finally decided to give up my facination with the ball valves and get the real thing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26449&item=2400190969&rd=1

[Hwyl]

Well done Conrad, I looked on ebay and see that you bought them. They warm the cockles of my heart. Use them well. Those are exactly the kind that I was talking about in an earlier post.

[Hwyl]

Well done Conrad, I looked on ebay and see that you bought them. They warm the cockles of my heart. Use them well. Those are exactly the kind that I was talking about in an earlier post.

[Hwyl]

Well done Conrad, I looked on ebay and see that you bought them. They warm the cockles of my heart. Use them well. Those are exactly the kind that I was talking about in an earlier post.

[JimConlin]

For bronze seacocks, there's also Spartan Marine (http://www.spartanmarine.com/) of Robinhood, ME.

I've been using the Marelon (glass reinforced nylon) seacocks for many years and have been quite happy with them. They stay operable even if not exercised frequently. If it matters, they're lighter in weight than bronze seacocks of the same size.

[JimConlin]

For bronze seacocks, there's also Spartan Marine (http://www.spartanmarine.com/) of Robinhood, ME.

I've been using the Marelon (glass reinforced nylon) seacocks for many years and have been quite happy with them. They stay operable even if not exercised frequently. If it matters, they're lighter in weight than bronze seacocks of the same size.

[JimConlin]

For bronze seacocks, there's also Spartan Marine (http://www.spartanmarine.com/) of Robinhood, ME.

I've been using the Marelon (glass reinforced nylon) seacocks for many years and have been quite happy with them. They stay operable even if not exercised frequently. If it matters, they're lighter in weight than bronze seacocks of the same size.

[Wilson Fitt]

Thanks for the advice.

The Blakes seacocks look like the real thing all right, but the stem that goes through the hull is only 36mm (a bit less than 1.5") long. This is fine for a glass boat with a wooden backing block, but I need something considerably longer to reach through 1 1/4" planking plus the backing block. I ran into this problem with depth sounder transducers as well. Most of the standard units assume that the hull is only a few fractions of an inch thick. The cost of the Blake seacocks is more than a bit offputting as well. Near as I can tell, they retail in the 100 pound range in the UK. This translates into a truly alarming amount by the time they find their way to Canada.

Call me old fashioned, but buying second hand stuff on e-bay does not give me the warm fuzzies yet. I'm still trying to overcome my reluctance to buy from "name brand" companies over the net. Spartan may be a good product. I've asked for a catalogue. Otherwise, I guess it's Groco.

[Wilson Fitt]

Thanks for the advice.

The Blakes seacocks look like the real thing all right, but the stem that goes through the hull is only 36mm (a bit less than 1.5") long. This is fine for a glass boat with a wooden backing block, but I need something considerably longer to reach through 1 1/4" planking plus the backing block. I ran into this problem with depth sounder transducers as well. Most of the standard units assume that the hull is only a few fractions of an inch thick. The cost of the Blake seacocks is more than a bit offputting as well. Near as I can tell, they retail in the 100 pound range in the UK. This translates into a truly alarming amount by the time they find their way to Canada.

Call me old fashioned, but buying second hand stuff on e-bay does not give me the warm fuzzies yet. I'm still trying to overcome my reluctance to buy from "name brand" companies over the net. Spartan may be a good product. I've asked for a catalogue. Otherwise, I guess it's Groco.

[Wilson Fitt]

Thanks for the advice.

The Blakes seacocks look like the real thing all right, but the stem that goes through the hull is only 36mm (a bit less than 1.5") long. This is fine for a glass boat with a wooden backing block, but I need something considerably longer to reach through 1 1/4" planking plus the backing block. I ran into this problem with depth sounder transducers as well. Most of the standard units assume that the hull is only a few fractions of an inch thick. The cost of the Blake seacocks is more than a bit offputting as well. Near as I can tell, they retail in the 100 pound range in the UK. This translates into a truly alarming amount by the time they find their way to Canada.

Call me old fashioned, but buying second hand stuff on e-bay does not give me the warm fuzzies yet. I'm still trying to overcome my reluctance to buy from "name brand" companies over the net. Spartan may be a good product. I've asked for a catalogue. Otherwise, I guess it's Groco.