Sailing technique

[Kristian]

When you're on a running free with the wind and your boom is at 90 with the boat; how do you let the wind out of the sails to slow down without realasing the boom to the bow of the boat or changing course direction? :confused:

[Kristian]

When you're on a running free with the wind and your boom is at 90 with the boat; how do you let the wind out of the sails to slow down without realasing the boom to the bow of the boat or changing course direction? :confused:

[Kristian]

When you're on a running free with the wind and your boom is at 90 with the boat; how do you let the wind out of the sails to slow down without realasing the boom to the bow of the boat or changing course direction? :confused:

[John B]

Some say that the advantage of a gaff rig is that you can do that. I wouldn't.
My answer. #1.you don't. You turn up into the wind.
#2 If you must. Turn up into the wind , drop the main, and run down under jib. That's easy enough to get down while running.
#3 get a square rig.LOL.

[John B]

Some say that the advantage of a gaff rig is that you can do that. I wouldn't.
My answer. #1.you don't. You turn up into the wind.
#2 If you must. Turn up into the wind , drop the main, and run down under jib. That's easy enough to get down while running.
#3 get a square rig.LOL.

[John B]

Some say that the advantage of a gaff rig is that you can do that. I wouldn't.
My answer. #1.you don't. You turn up into the wind.
#2 If you must. Turn up into the wind , drop the main, and run down under jib. That's easy enough to get down while running.
#3 get a square rig.LOL.

[Ed Burnett]

If you want to slow down, just pull the main in tight so the wind blows past it. It does not stop the boat, but it does take a lot of the drive out of the main and you have no concerns about accidental gybes.

You need a pretty well mannered boat though - if the wind swings on to the quarter for whatever reason you don't want her rounding up on you.

[Ed Burnett]

If you want to slow down, just pull the main in tight so the wind blows past it. It does not stop the boat, but it does take a lot of the drive out of the main and you have no concerns about accidental gybes.

You need a pretty well mannered boat though - if the wind swings on to the quarter for whatever reason you don't want her rounding up on you.

[Ed Burnett]

If you want to slow down, just pull the main in tight so the wind blows past it. It does not stop the boat, but it does take a lot of the drive out of the main and you have no concerns about accidental gybes.

You need a pretty well mannered boat though - if the wind swings on to the quarter for whatever reason you don't want her rounding up on you.

[ahp]

While we are at it, can someone please explain what causes a Death Role.

[ahp]

While we are at it, can someone please explain what causes a Death Role.

[ahp]

While we are at it, can someone please explain what causes a Death Role.

[Ian McColgin]

Put it in reverse with the sail curved to the stern . . .

HehHehHeh

Seriously, she's not a car or motorboat. You don't just stop.

There are times when, large boat or small, it's nice to have some ideas as to what to do headed down wind. Like when your dock is straight downwind and there's now way to get behind it and round up.

When I had to sail Goblin (a 43', 12ton alden schooner) onto a down wind dock, I'd do a 360 a little bit upwind, dropping all sails as I went through the eye and still having momentum to steer off the wind and come in under bare poles - what pilots might call a dead stick landing.

Another trick is to learn to sail backwards and sidways - variations on heaving to. These maneouvers will enable you to close in on something downwind but still be in position to claw away.

Point is, use the the wind.

Fun with boats.

[Ian McColgin]

Put it in reverse with the sail curved to the stern . . .

HehHehHeh

Seriously, she's not a car or motorboat. You don't just stop.

There are times when, large boat or small, it's nice to have some ideas as to what to do headed down wind. Like when your dock is straight downwind and there's now way to get behind it and round up.

When I had to sail Goblin (a 43', 12ton alden schooner) onto a down wind dock, I'd do a 360 a little bit upwind, dropping all sails as I went through the eye and still having momentum to steer off the wind and come in under bare poles - what pilots might call a dead stick landing.

Another trick is to learn to sail backwards and sidways - variations on heaving to. These maneouvers will enable you to close in on something downwind but still be in position to claw away.

Point is, use the the wind.

Fun with boats.

[Ian McColgin]

Put it in reverse with the sail curved to the stern . . .

HehHehHeh

Seriously, she's not a car or motorboat. You don't just stop.

There are times when, large boat or small, it's nice to have some ideas as to what to do headed down wind. Like when your dock is straight downwind and there's now way to get behind it and round up.

When I had to sail Goblin (a 43', 12ton alden schooner) onto a down wind dock, I'd do a 360 a little bit upwind, dropping all sails as I went through the eye and still having momentum to steer off the wind and come in under bare poles - what pilots might call a dead stick landing.

Another trick is to learn to sail backwards and sidways - variations on heaving to. These maneouvers will enable you to close in on something downwind but still be in position to claw away.

Point is, use the the wind.

Fun with boats.

[Ian McColgin]

Death roll is a high class spinnaker schlemozzle.

Basicly you need to start with a broach, rolling hard to leeward, and if you're really cursed by god, fill the spinnaker with water so she won't come up till you drop the hallyard and guy. Keep hold of the sheet if you want to get the 'chute back.

A gainer death roll has the broach in the other direction, slam gybe maybe even hanging the boom in the backstay, and the 'chute filled collapsing through the J. It's hard to fill the 'chute with water in this roll, but perhaps you can have a long enough boom that the main is held by the water and filled with air, impossible to ease.

[Ian McColgin]

Death roll is a high class spinnaker schlemozzle.

Basicly you need to start with a broach, rolling hard to leeward, and if you're really cursed by god, fill the spinnaker with water so she won't come up till you drop the hallyard and guy. Keep hold of the sheet if you want to get the 'chute back.

A gainer death roll has the broach in the other direction, slam gybe maybe even hanging the boom in the backstay, and the 'chute filled collapsing through the J. It's hard to fill the 'chute with water in this roll, but perhaps you can have a long enough boom that the main is held by the water and filled with air, impossible to ease.

[Ian McColgin]

Death roll is a high class spinnaker schlemozzle.

Basicly you need to start with a broach, rolling hard to leeward, and if you're really cursed by god, fill the spinnaker with water so she won't come up till you drop the hallyard and guy. Keep hold of the sheet if you want to get the 'chute back.

A gainer death roll has the broach in the other direction, slam gybe maybe even hanging the boom in the backstay, and the 'chute filled collapsing through the J. It's hard to fill the 'chute with water in this roll, but perhaps you can have a long enough boom that the main is held by the water and filled with air, impossible to ease.

[Figment]

aren't sailing terms fun? when I first read this, I thought of the dinghy version of the death roll.... when going downwind the boat starts to oscillate, gradually heeling further and further port and starboard until eventually you capsize. my instinct is that the same forces are at work in Ian's version though.

my understanding of this phenomenon is that a puff comes along, heeling the boat to leeward, which causes the main to spill. the inertia of the resultant righting force causes the boat to re-heel all the way back over to windward, where the mainsail gets up high in the air and catches lots of wind, heeling the boat hard to leeward, the main dumps air, the boat rights..... and on and on getting worse and worse until finally on that re-heel back to windward the puff of wind dies out and splasheroo... you're in the drink.

the only cure I ever learned was to head up a bit until the boat stabilized. oh, yeah.... and remember that you haven't finished fixing the problem until you yell at the crew for pulling the centerboard up too high even though you told them too.

[Figment]

aren't sailing terms fun? when I first read this, I thought of the dinghy version of the death roll.... when going downwind the boat starts to oscillate, gradually heeling further and further port and starboard until eventually you capsize. my instinct is that the same forces are at work in Ian's version though.

my understanding of this phenomenon is that a puff comes along, heeling the boat to leeward, which causes the main to spill. the inertia of the resultant righting force causes the boat to re-heel all the way back over to windward, where the mainsail gets up high in the air and catches lots of wind, heeling the boat hard to leeward, the main dumps air, the boat rights..... and on and on getting worse and worse until finally on that re-heel back to windward the puff of wind dies out and splasheroo... you're in the drink.

the only cure I ever learned was to head up a bit until the boat stabilized. oh, yeah.... and remember that you haven't finished fixing the problem until you yell at the crew for pulling the centerboard up too high even though you told them too.

[Figment]

aren't sailing terms fun? when I first read this, I thought of the dinghy version of the death roll.... when going downwind the boat starts to oscillate, gradually heeling further and further port and starboard until eventually you capsize. my instinct is that the same forces are at work in Ian's version though.

my understanding of this phenomenon is that a puff comes along, heeling the boat to leeward, which causes the main to spill. the inertia of the resultant righting force causes the boat to re-heel all the way back over to windward, where the mainsail gets up high in the air and catches lots of wind, heeling the boat hard to leeward, the main dumps air, the boat rights..... and on and on getting worse and worse until finally on that re-heel back to windward the puff of wind dies out and splasheroo... you're in the drink.

the only cure I ever learned was to head up a bit until the boat stabilized. oh, yeah.... and remember that you haven't finished fixing the problem until you yell at the crew for pulling the centerboard up too high even though you told them too.

[Ian McColgin]

The oscillation is largely aerodynamic and marvelously enough is labled 'self excitation.' It can be exacerbated in two ways by the water - the following sea may rock the boat a bit, and when the boat is on the crest, there's less boat in the water and less form stability to resist the self-excitation.

The problem is worse with a spinnaker, and you can get some really fun 'chute wobble going. In essence, you have venturies forming at both the luff and the leech pulling the sail which, being out as far as possible, is the same as putting a hand on the mast head and rocking her side to side.

I forgot to mention the role of self-excitation in a really complete death roll.

I remember a Force 5 race in high winds. The very broad reach for the finish was a gas. I had the board up and the boat hopped up on a plane. I'd taken to standing as the only way to shift my weight side to side enough to counter the self-excitation. The waves were just small lake style whitecaps - maybe 18".

I was well ahead and had managed to scoop up a beer to flourish at the Committee. So right on the line, as I flourished, I failed to counter a bit of roll. The boat came off the plane by catching a bit of bow gunnel and we cartwheeled across the line.

With lightening reactions I put a finger in the bottle neck so the beer was fine.

There was a huge protest meeting but I was in contact with the boat as we crossed, so I won.

Fun with boats.

[Ian McColgin]

The oscillation is largely aerodynamic and marvelously enough is labled 'self excitation.' It can be exacerbated in two ways by the water - the following sea may rock the boat a bit, and when the boat is on the crest, there's less boat in the water and less form stability to resist the self-excitation.

The problem is worse with a spinnaker, and you can get some really fun 'chute wobble going. In essence, you have venturies forming at both the luff and the leech pulling the sail which, being out as far as possible, is the same as putting a hand on the mast head and rocking her side to side.

I forgot to mention the role of self-excitation in a really complete death roll.

I remember a Force 5 race in high winds. The very broad reach for the finish was a gas. I had the board up and the boat hopped up on a plane. I'd taken to standing as the only way to shift my weight side to side enough to counter the self-excitation. The waves were just small lake style whitecaps - maybe 18".

I was well ahead and had managed to scoop up a beer to flourish at the Committee. So right on the line, as I flourished, I failed to counter a bit of roll. The boat came off the plane by catching a bit of bow gunnel and we cartwheeled across the line.

With lightening reactions I put a finger in the bottle neck so the beer was fine.

There was a huge protest meeting but I was in contact with the boat as we crossed, so I won.

Fun with boats.

[Ian McColgin]

The oscillation is largely aerodynamic and marvelously enough is labled 'self excitation.' It can be exacerbated in two ways by the water - the following sea may rock the boat a bit, and when the boat is on the crest, there's less boat in the water and less form stability to resist the self-excitation.

The problem is worse with a spinnaker, and you can get some really fun 'chute wobble going. In essence, you have venturies forming at both the luff and the leech pulling the sail which, being out as far as possible, is the same as putting a hand on the mast head and rocking her side to side.

I forgot to mention the role of self-excitation in a really complete death roll.

I remember a Force 5 race in high winds. The very broad reach for the finish was a gas. I had the board up and the boat hopped up on a plane. I'd taken to standing as the only way to shift my weight side to side enough to counter the self-excitation. The waves were just small lake style whitecaps - maybe 18".

I was well ahead and had managed to scoop up a beer to flourish at the Committee. So right on the line, as I flourished, I failed to counter a bit of roll. The boat came off the plane by catching a bit of bow gunnel and we cartwheeled across the line.

With lightening reactions I put a finger in the bottle neck so the beer was fine.

There was a huge protest meeting but I was in contact with the boat as we crossed, so I won.

Fun with boats.

[Todd Schliemann]

K.

Back to your question. Ed's response is the basic technique, sheet the main in and you will slow. However this technique gets a little dicey in a blow. A sheeted in main downwind in a blow makes it difficult to bring her up into the wind to maneuver and an accidental jibe becomes more possible, if wave conditions move the boat about. Picture a sheeted in main downwind, a lot of wind and you start your turn upwind. The wind will increase the bite on the main, speed and heal increase, then more heel and slam - over you go. This usually happens as you head more toward a reach, being broadside to the blow.

As Ian says, make sure you have room to manuever if it's blowing and you can always make a slow, broad arc of an upwind turn adjusting the main in and out as necessary to maintain control and speed. If it gets shakey as you make your upwind turn, a return back downwind will stabilize things, if wave conditions permit. You will need sea room for this.

When racing we don't reef, must be one of those macho things. In these instances, in a blow, the main becomes your accelerator for turns. To make a turn from downwind, before you start the turn, start sheeting the main in, then as she turns you let the main out and stop it occassionally, just on the edge of a broach. Acceleration is periodic and , well, somewhat controlable. We also will release the vang at a certain point in a turn which will let the main rise, and it will depower the rig (amazingly effective to control heal on a reach also). Makes for exciting stuff, especially in small boats.

Fair Winds

[Todd Schliemann]

K.

Back to your question. Ed's response is the basic technique, sheet the main in and you will slow. However this technique gets a little dicey in a blow. A sheeted in main downwind in a blow makes it difficult to bring her up into the wind to maneuver and an accidental jibe becomes more possible, if wave conditions move the boat about. Picture a sheeted in main downwind, a lot of wind and you start your turn upwind. The wind will increase the bite on the main, speed and heal increase, then more heel and slam - over you go. This usually happens as you head more toward a reach, being broadside to the blow.

As Ian says, make sure you have room to manuever if it's blowing and you can always make a slow, broad arc of an upwind turn adjusting the main in and out as necessary to maintain control and speed. If it gets shakey as you make your upwind turn, a return back downwind will stabilize things, if wave conditions permit. You will need sea room for this.

When racing we don't reef, must be one of those macho things. In these instances, in a blow, the main becomes your accelerator for turns. To make a turn from downwind, before you start the turn, start sheeting the main in, then as she turns you let the main out and stop it occassionally, just on the edge of a broach. Acceleration is periodic and , well, somewhat controlable. We also will release the vang at a certain point in a turn which will let the main rise, and it will depower the rig (amazingly effective to control heal on a reach also). Makes for exciting stuff, especially in small boats.

Fair Winds

[Todd Schliemann]

K.

Back to your question. Ed's response is the basic technique, sheet the main in and you will slow. However this technique gets a little dicey in a blow. A sheeted in main downwind in a blow makes it difficult to bring her up into the wind to maneuver and an accidental jibe becomes more possible, if wave conditions move the boat about. Picture a sheeted in main downwind, a lot of wind and you start your turn upwind. The wind will increase the bite on the main, speed and heal increase, then more heel and slam - over you go. This usually happens as you head more toward a reach, being broadside to the blow.

As Ian says, make sure you have room to manuever if it's blowing and you can always make a slow, broad arc of an upwind turn adjusting the main in and out as necessary to maintain control and speed. If it gets shakey as you make your upwind turn, a return back downwind will stabilize things, if wave conditions permit. You will need sea room for this.

When racing we don't reef, must be one of those macho things. In these instances, in a blow, the main becomes your accelerator for turns. To make a turn from downwind, before you start the turn, start sheeting the main in, then as she turns you let the main out and stop it occassionally, just on the edge of a broach. Acceleration is periodic and , well, somewhat controlable. We also will release the vang at a certain point in a turn which will let the main rise, and it will depower the rig (amazingly effective to control heal on a reach also). Makes for exciting stuff, especially in small boats.

Fair Winds

[Bernadette]

you can depower your boat by scandalising the main. in short you trice your tack...that is you haul the tack up the mast (provided your main is loose footed). tom cunliff describes this method quite well in his book: Hand Reef and Steer.

[Bernadette]

you can depower your boat by scandalising the main. in short you trice your tack...that is you haul the tack up the mast (provided your main is loose footed). tom cunliff describes this method quite well in his book: Hand Reef and Steer.

[Bernadette]

you can depower your boat by scandalising the main. in short you trice your tack...that is you haul the tack up the mast (provided your main is loose footed). tom cunliff describes this method quite well in his book: Hand Reef and Steer.

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

>>and remember that you haven't finished fixing the problem until you yell at the crew for pulling the centerboard up too high even though you told them too. <<

Actually you want the board ALL the way up. When you start planing at high speeds,- think a LASER in 20 knots of wind!- its easy for the boat to "trip" on that little bit of stub sticking out the bottom. Last winter I provided much mirth when I was ejected from my boat, plunged completely under the water and the boat momentarily righted and sailed another 15-20 yards before wiping out. Also, a sure way to Death Roll is sailing by the lee in windy conditions; 14-15 knots plus. At least that's about right for a Laser!

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

>>and remember that you haven't finished fixing the problem until you yell at the crew for pulling the centerboard up too high even though you told them too. <<

Actually you want the board ALL the way up. When you start planing at high speeds,- think a LASER in 20 knots of wind!- its easy for the boat to "trip" on that little bit of stub sticking out the bottom. Last winter I provided much mirth when I was ejected from my boat, plunged completely under the water and the boat momentarily righted and sailed another 15-20 yards before wiping out. Also, a sure way to Death Roll is sailing by the lee in windy conditions; 14-15 knots plus. At least that's about right for a Laser!

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

>>and remember that you haven't finished fixing the problem until you yell at the crew for pulling the centerboard up too high even though you told them too. <<

Actually you want the board ALL the way up. When you start planing at high speeds,- think a LASER in 20 knots of wind!- its easy for the boat to "trip" on that little bit of stub sticking out the bottom. Last winter I provided much mirth when I was ejected from my boat, plunged completely under the water and the boat momentarily righted and sailed another 15-20 yards before wiping out. Also, a sure way to Death Roll is sailing by the lee in windy conditions; 14-15 knots plus. At least that's about right for a Laser!

[John B]

If you let your main go out far enough that an part of it is forward of the mast you can get a death roll.Uffa fox points this out in one of his books.
Not so commomn now with boom vangs/ kicking straps on most boats. Had a terrible death roll under kite once.Theres a technique to steering out from it but the basic problem is that the kite is too high. Needs to be strapped down.

[John B]

If you let your main go out far enough that an part of it is forward of the mast you can get a death roll.Uffa fox points this out in one of his books.
Not so commomn now with boom vangs/ kicking straps on most boats. Had a terrible death roll under kite once.Theres a technique to steering out from it but the basic problem is that the kite is too high. Needs to be strapped down.

[John B]

If you let your main go out far enough that an part of it is forward of the mast you can get a death roll.Uffa fox points this out in one of his books.
Not so commomn now with boom vangs/ kicking straps on most boats. Had a terrible death roll under kite once.Theres a technique to steering out from it but the basic problem is that the kite is too high. Needs to be strapped down.

[Kristian]

So basiclly, one can't slow down a free run without changing course or threatening a death roll.

[Kristian]

So basiclly, one can't slow down a free run without changing course or threatening a death roll.

[Kristian]

So basiclly, one can't slow down a free run without changing course or threatening a death roll.

[ahp]

Thanks for the comments. My first and only death rolls were in a Laser. I'm sure it can happen with other boats too. I did two in ten minutes. It was HUMILIATING.

[ahp]

Thanks for the comments. My first and only death rolls were in a Laser. I'm sure it can happen with other boats too. I did two in ten minutes. It was HUMILIATING.

[ahp]

Thanks for the comments. My first and only death rolls were in a Laser. I'm sure it can happen with other boats too. I did two in ten minutes. It was HUMILIATING.

[John B]

Kristian, A death roll is a fairly unlikely thing to happen. I mean, you'll be sailing 10/ 10 ths before you see it or be in a fairly bad sea cum wind state. Just don't let the top of your main go up hard on the spreaders or forward of the mast.(assuming it's not a kite run)
Taking a bermudan main down sailing downhill isn't advised and as you've read, there are better ways. Having said that,I done it once in a breeze. Mainly because I was so s$%# scared of the gybe in conditions which were way too fresh for us. I didn't tear the sail but easily could have . You know when you read " clawed the sail down ". That.
If I'd had a shotgun........

[ 08-18-2002, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[John B]

Kristian, A death roll is a fairly unlikely thing to happen. I mean, you'll be sailing 10/ 10 ths before you see it or be in a fairly bad sea cum wind state. Just don't let the top of your main go up hard on the spreaders or forward of the mast.(assuming it's not a kite run)
Taking a bermudan main down sailing downhill isn't advised and as you've read, there are better ways. Having said that,I done it once in a breeze. Mainly because I was so s$%# scared of the gybe in conditions which were way too fresh for us. I didn't tear the sail but easily could have . You know when you read " clawed the sail down ". That.
If I'd had a shotgun........

[ 08-18-2002, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[John B]

Kristian, A death roll is a fairly unlikely thing to happen. I mean, you'll be sailing 10/ 10 ths before you see it or be in a fairly bad sea cum wind state. Just don't let the top of your main go up hard on the spreaders or forward of the mast.(assuming it's not a kite run)
Taking a bermudan main down sailing downhill isn't advised and as you've read, there are better ways. Having said that,I done it once in a breeze. Mainly because I was so s$%# scared of the gybe in conditions which were way too fresh for us. I didn't tear the sail but easily could have . You know when you read " clawed the sail down ". That.
If I'd had a shotgun........

[ 08-18-2002, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[CharlieZ]

Generally, easing the main and steering down a bit (anticipation req'd) will prevent a knockdown(pressure to round up).

Wave or helm induced oscillation causes the (overpowered) boat to trip on the keel and stall the rudder (ineffective) causing the wipeout. This waters the dorades and incites intemperate language and a gnashing of teeth or pitches you across finish lines.

We had a "last day of summer" sail a couple of Labor Days ago and got rundover by a white quall in the little Shorebird, trying to make the dock (a very lee shore) dead down. We almost made it.

Decided to sit it out rather than scratch the spanking new varnish. One shot for the bouy, I figured; miss it and things get interesting, so we ran. Before the full fury hit we rounded up and dropped the sails. 55knots hit and we were doing about 5kts on a beam reach, bare poles (max hull speed is 6 or so). Aside from the rain, which felt like hail, and boats that had lost their mooring flying by in the murk, my wife was laughing maniacally, mistakenly thinking it a great adventure and believeing that I had it all very under control. The dog knew better and was getting very acquainted with the nuts holding the eye chocks in the forepeak. Then the lightning came, I was going over how we left out the rod/bonding bit during construction, so we anchored in shallow water on the lee side of a marsh and made for an old duck blind to continue our quiet day on the bay.

Cozy little places, those duck blinds.

[ 08-19-2002, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: CharlieZ ]

[CharlieZ]

Generally, easing the main and steering down a bit (anticipation req'd) will prevent a knockdown(pressure to round up).

Wave or helm induced oscillation causes the (overpowered) boat to trip on the keel and stall the rudder (ineffective) causing the wipeout. This waters the dorades and incites intemperate language and a gnashing of teeth or pitches you across finish lines.

We had a "last day of summer" sail a couple of Labor Days ago and got rundover by a white quall in the little Shorebird, trying to make the dock (a very lee shore) dead down. We almost made it.

Decided to sit it out rather than scratch the spanking new varnish. One shot for the bouy, I figured; miss it and things get interesting, so we ran. Before the full fury hit we rounded up and dropped the sails. 55knots hit and we were doing about 5kts on a beam reach, bare poles (max hull speed is 6 or so). Aside from the rain, which felt like hail, and boats that had lost their mooring flying by in the murk, my wife was laughing maniacally, mistakenly thinking it a great adventure and believeing that I had it all very under control. The dog knew better and was getting very acquainted with the nuts holding the eye chocks in the forepeak. Then the lightning came, I was going over how we left out the rod/bonding bit during construction, so we anchored in shallow water on the lee side of a marsh and made for an old duck blind to continue our quiet day on the bay.

Cozy little places, those duck blinds.

[ 08-19-2002, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: CharlieZ ]

[CharlieZ]

Generally, easing the main and steering down a bit (anticipation req'd) will prevent a knockdown(pressure to round up).

Wave or helm induced oscillation causes the (overpowered) boat to trip on the keel and stall the rudder (ineffective) causing the wipeout. This waters the dorades and incites intemperate language and a gnashing of teeth or pitches you across finish lines.

We had a "last day of summer" sail a couple of Labor Days ago and got rundover by a white quall in the little Shorebird, trying to make the dock (a very lee shore) dead down. We almost made it.

Decided to sit it out rather than scratch the spanking new varnish. One shot for the bouy, I figured; miss it and things get interesting, so we ran. Before the full fury hit we rounded up and dropped the sails. 55knots hit and we were doing about 5kts on a beam reach, bare poles (max hull speed is 6 or so). Aside from the rain, which felt like hail, and boats that had lost their mooring flying by in the murk, my wife was laughing maniacally, mistakenly thinking it a great adventure and believeing that I had it all very under control. The dog knew better and was getting very acquainted with the nuts holding the eye chocks in the forepeak. Then the lightning came, I was going over how we left out the rod/bonding bit during construction, so we anchored in shallow water on the lee side of a marsh and made for an old duck blind to continue our quiet day on the bay.

Cozy little places, those duck blinds.

[ 08-19-2002, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: CharlieZ ]

[JJoohhnn]

If all you want to do is slow down but do not have to reduce
sail, and we are talking about that nice boat of yours in the pictures you posted the other day,
may I suggest dragging a bucket on a rope.

[JJoohhnn]

If all you want to do is slow down but do not have to reduce
sail, and we are talking about that nice boat of yours in the pictures you posted the other day,
may I suggest dragging a bucket on a rope.

[JJoohhnn]

If all you want to do is slow down but do not have to reduce
sail, and we are talking about that nice boat of yours in the pictures you posted the other day,
may I suggest dragging a bucket on a rope.

[gert]

Forgive me my minimum experience, but these are basic survival issues as this stage:
If I understand it correctly; NEVER drop a sail that is full, always turn up into the wind carefully if your in (out?) over your head?
When should reef points be considered and how many? This is an 80 sqft lug sail on a 16' boat that has none now. I had asked for them when I ordered the sail but they said they wouldn't put them in till I had more experience and then they would be n.c. What am I missing here?

[gert]

Forgive me my minimum experience, but these are basic survival issues as this stage:
If I understand it correctly; NEVER drop a sail that is full, always turn up into the wind carefully if your in (out?) over your head?
When should reef points be considered and how many? This is an 80 sqft lug sail on a 16' boat that has none now. I had asked for them when I ordered the sail but they said they wouldn't put them in till I had more experience and then they would be n.c. What am I missing here?

[gert]

Forgive me my minimum experience, but these are basic survival issues as this stage:
If I understand it correctly; NEVER drop a sail that is full, always turn up into the wind carefully if your in (out?) over your head?
When should reef points be considered and how many? This is an 80 sqft lug sail on a 16' boat that has none now. I had asked for them when I ordered the sail but they said they wouldn't put them in till I had more experience and then they would be n.c. What am I missing here?

[Ian McColgin]

They are trying to keep you from going out when it's too windy. Say it feels a bit hairy in a 12 knot breeze. You stay on the beech. Nice and safe. If you had reef points, you might be tempted to try a 20kt breeze before you're ready.

Anyway. That's a guess based on similar reasoning I've run into. I don't teach that way myself but there's lots of wrong opinions out there . . .

Lots of lug sails don't have any reef points, especially in a small boat. Partly, it's harder to reef in a little boat, especially in the conditions where you must reef. With Leeward, one of the most seaworthy little dories ever, and with me (an astonishingly skillfull, though modest in a manly way, sailor) it can still be an entertainment to sit a bit forward so she stays hove-to with the rig struck and reef it in my lap.

You also can rapidly get to the point where the reefed sail does not have enough power to do much good. Again with Leeward, if the wind's over 25 kt and there's any wave action, I'm better off rowing to weather.

Off the wind in a breeze high enough to reef, you may still be roaring along in dangerous conditions for the boat's size. As you get up to 'hull speed' the boat begins to make quite a wake. You're running off with some nice chop - maybe steep three footers (which amateurs will assure you in the bar later were at least 6 feet). Anyway, your wake can give that wave the excuse it needs to break and poop you.

That's if you've avoided the small boat death roll.

All in all, get used to the boat. In some ways I'm priveleged to have grown up in Long Island Sound (aka The Dead Sea) as one learns far more ghosting after cats' paws than anything. Now that I am in Nantucket Sound, place of the finest wind in North America, either coast, bar none, you suckers just don't know what righteous living is like, anyway I realize that our local lads and lasses pay a price for our wind snobbery.

Learn to sail in moderate condition.

Sail something a bit larger in conditions that warrant a reef so you can learn from folk with experience. Then decide about a retrofit.

Enjoy.

[Ian McColgin]

They are trying to keep you from going out when it's too windy. Say it feels a bit hairy in a 12 knot breeze. You stay on the beech. Nice and safe. If you had reef points, you might be tempted to try a 20kt breeze before you're ready.

Anyway. That's a guess based on similar reasoning I've run into. I don't teach that way myself but there's lots of wrong opinions out there . . .

Lots of lug sails don't have any reef points, especially in a small boat. Partly, it's harder to reef in a little boat, especially in the conditions where you must reef. With Leeward, one of the most seaworthy little dories ever, and with me (an astonishingly skillfull, though modest in a manly way, sailor) it can still be an entertainment to sit a bit forward so she stays hove-to with the rig struck and reef it in my lap.

You also can rapidly get to the point where the reefed sail does not have enough power to do much good. Again with Leeward, if the wind's over 25 kt and there's any wave action, I'm better off rowing to weather.

Off the wind in a breeze high enough to reef, you may still be roaring along in dangerous conditions for the boat's size. As you get up to 'hull speed' the boat begins to make quite a wake. You're running off with some nice chop - maybe steep three footers (which amateurs will assure you in the bar later were at least 6 feet). Anyway, your wake can give that wave the excuse it needs to break and poop you.

That's if you've avoided the small boat death roll.

All in all, get used to the boat. In some ways I'm priveleged to have grown up in Long Island Sound (aka The Dead Sea) as one learns far more ghosting after cats' paws than anything. Now that I am in Nantucket Sound, place of the finest wind in North America, either coast, bar none, you suckers just don't know what righteous living is like, anyway I realize that our local lads and lasses pay a price for our wind snobbery.

Learn to sail in moderate condition.

Sail something a bit larger in conditions that warrant a reef so you can learn from folk with experience. Then decide about a retrofit.

Enjoy.

[Ian McColgin]

They are trying to keep you from going out when it's too windy. Say it feels a bit hairy in a 12 knot breeze. You stay on the beech. Nice and safe. If you had reef points, you might be tempted to try a 20kt breeze before you're ready.

Anyway. That's a guess based on similar reasoning I've run into. I don't teach that way myself but there's lots of wrong opinions out there . . .

Lots of lug sails don't have any reef points, especially in a small boat. Partly, it's harder to reef in a little boat, especially in the conditions where you must reef. With Leeward, one of the most seaworthy little dories ever, and with me (an astonishingly skillfull, though modest in a manly way, sailor) it can still be an entertainment to sit a bit forward so she stays hove-to with the rig struck and reef it in my lap.

You also can rapidly get to the point where the reefed sail does not have enough power to do much good. Again with Leeward, if the wind's over 25 kt and there's any wave action, I'm better off rowing to weather.

Off the wind in a breeze high enough to reef, you may still be roaring along in dangerous conditions for the boat's size. As you get up to 'hull speed' the boat begins to make quite a wake. You're running off with some nice chop - maybe steep three footers (which amateurs will assure you in the bar later were at least 6 feet). Anyway, your wake can give that wave the excuse it needs to break and poop you.

That's if you've avoided the small boat death roll.

All in all, get used to the boat. In some ways I'm priveleged to have grown up in Long Island Sound (aka The Dead Sea) as one learns far more ghosting after cats' paws than anything. Now that I am in Nantucket Sound, place of the finest wind in North America, either coast, bar none, you suckers just don't know what righteous living is like, anyway I realize that our local lads and lasses pay a price for our wind snobbery.

Learn to sail in moderate condition.

Sail something a bit larger in conditions that warrant a reef so you can learn from folk with experience. Then decide about a retrofit.

Enjoy.

[Ian McColgin]

Couple other thoughts.

You may well get a lug sail, and even other sails, down when running. On one tack it's really easy, on the other you may have to pull.

Practice in gentle weather.

It's nice to know this since sometimes there's a hazzard in rounding up. Say you're off the wind and figure out you're over-powered. If you can get the sail down on the run, you won't have to come up through beam on the wind where even the sail at full luff could put your rail under.

G'luck

[Ian McColgin]

Couple other thoughts.

You may well get a lug sail, and even other sails, down when running. On one tack it's really easy, on the other you may have to pull.

Practice in gentle weather.

It's nice to know this since sometimes there's a hazzard in rounding up. Say you're off the wind and figure out you're over-powered. If you can get the sail down on the run, you won't have to come up through beam on the wind where even the sail at full luff could put your rail under.

G'luck

[Ian McColgin]

Couple other thoughts.

You may well get a lug sail, and even other sails, down when running. On one tack it's really easy, on the other you may have to pull.

Practice in gentle weather.

It's nice to know this since sometimes there's a hazzard in rounding up. Say you're off the wind and figure out you're over-powered. If you can get the sail down on the run, you won't have to come up through beam on the wind where even the sail at full luff could put your rail under.

G'luck

[Todd Bradshaw]

Gert,
You could probably drop the yard while the sail is full - but it may well put you in a worse situation that you were in before and you may tear up something in the process. Without having sailed your boat, I suspect that a better plan in last ditch, we're-going-to-flip kind of conditions might be to let go of the tiller, hike as needed to keep the thing upright, let it round up into the wind and then drop the sail. Ideally, before it ever got to that point, you would steer it up and try to lower the sail under more control.

A normal first reef will remove 15%-20% of the sail area and I can't see much wrong with putting one in, especially when it's free. I don't know what they expect you to figure out while sailing without one, but it's pretty hard to sail a boat and determine how much sail area should be removed by adding a reef. It's aways going to be an educated guess unless you have the hull design and sailplan integrated into some fancy computer program that can do simulations. If enjoyable daysailing is your goal and you plan to stay out of potential survival conditions, I doubt you would ever use a second reef on that boat.

The other reason that I would probably add the reef now is that most Tanbark fabric fades some with age. Right now, the new cloth added for reef patches would match. A year or two from now, it may not.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Gert,
You could probably drop the yard while the sail is full - but it may well put you in a worse situation that you were in before and you may tear up something in the process. Without having sailed your boat, I suspect that a better plan in last ditch, we're-going-to-flip kind of conditions might be to let go of the tiller, hike as needed to keep the thing upright, let it round up into the wind and then drop the sail. Ideally, before it ever got to that point, you would steer it up and try to lower the sail under more control.

A normal first reef will remove 15%-20% of the sail area and I can't see much wrong with putting one in, especially when it's free. I don't know what they expect you to figure out while sailing without one, but it's pretty hard to sail a boat and determine how much sail area should be removed by adding a reef. It's aways going to be an educated guess unless you have the hull design and sailplan integrated into some fancy computer program that can do simulations. If enjoyable daysailing is your goal and you plan to stay out of potential survival conditions, I doubt you would ever use a second reef on that boat.

The other reason that I would probably add the reef now is that most Tanbark fabric fades some with age. Right now, the new cloth added for reef patches would match. A year or two from now, it may not.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Gert,
You could probably drop the yard while the sail is full - but it may well put you in a worse situation that you were in before and you may tear up something in the process. Without having sailed your boat, I suspect that a better plan in last ditch, we're-going-to-flip kind of conditions might be to let go of the tiller, hike as needed to keep the thing upright, let it round up into the wind and then drop the sail. Ideally, before it ever got to that point, you would steer it up and try to lower the sail under more control.

A normal first reef will remove 15%-20% of the sail area and I can't see much wrong with putting one in, especially when it's free. I don't know what they expect you to figure out while sailing without one, but it's pretty hard to sail a boat and determine how much sail area should be removed by adding a reef. It's aways going to be an educated guess unless you have the hull design and sailplan integrated into some fancy computer program that can do simulations. If enjoyable daysailing is your goal and you plan to stay out of potential survival conditions, I doubt you would ever use a second reef on that boat.

The other reason that I would probably add the reef now is that most Tanbark fabric fades some with age. Right now, the new cloth added for reef patches would match. A year or two from now, it may not.

[Scott Rosen]

There's some great advice here. Kristian's original question is how to slow down on a run. That's a tough question because a run is usually the slowest point of sail, except maybe beating into a stiff chop.

The easiest and quickest way to slow down is to very gently head up a couple of points to windward without sheeting in the sails, just to the point where the sails start to luff. The boat will lose speed. Then ease the helm to leeward slightly until the boat has just the amount of speed you want. Be very careful to avoid sudden moves of the helm. If you're running then you will have following seas and a sharp turn to windward could cause a broach, while a sharp turn to leeward will cause a jibe and may tear the rig right off the boat.

Sheeting the main in to midship is okay in light or moderate wind and seas, but could be fatal in real blow.

[Scott Rosen]

There's some great advice here. Kristian's original question is how to slow down on a run. That's a tough question because a run is usually the slowest point of sail, except maybe beating into a stiff chop.

The easiest and quickest way to slow down is to very gently head up a couple of points to windward without sheeting in the sails, just to the point where the sails start to luff. The boat will lose speed. Then ease the helm to leeward slightly until the boat has just the amount of speed you want. Be very careful to avoid sudden moves of the helm. If you're running then you will have following seas and a sharp turn to windward could cause a broach, while a sharp turn to leeward will cause a jibe and may tear the rig right off the boat.

Sheeting the main in to midship is okay in light or moderate wind and seas, but could be fatal in real blow.

[Scott Rosen]

There's some great advice here. Kristian's original question is how to slow down on a run. That's a tough question because a run is usually the slowest point of sail, except maybe beating into a stiff chop.

The easiest and quickest way to slow down is to very gently head up a couple of points to windward without sheeting in the sails, just to the point where the sails start to luff. The boat will lose speed. Then ease the helm to leeward slightly until the boat has just the amount of speed you want. Be very careful to avoid sudden moves of the helm. If you're running then you will have following seas and a sharp turn to windward could cause a broach, while a sharp turn to leeward will cause a jibe and may tear the rig right off the boat.

Sheeting the main in to midship is okay in light or moderate wind and seas, but could be fatal in real blow.

[Tonyr]

Another comment for Gert's reefing question. I have a 17 foot modified Whitehall with 4'6" beam (i.e. long and narrow, much less beamy than most sail boats). The 65 sq ft sail is a standing lug, boomed, with a loose foot. The reef points are about 32" up from the foot, and reefing reduces the initial area by about 24 sq ft. This is more than Todd suggests for a first reef, and I do have to play the main pretty freely when the wind is getting up, but not quite "too much" yet. The reefed 40 sq ft sail works very well, and I feel safe and in control (until things get totally overwhelming!).

I suspect that my rather large reef is ok because the boat is really a modified rowboat with a very low freeboard (say 13" midships), and low profile. It is thus relatively unaffected by wind, compared to a more conventional open boat of the same length.

Regards, Tony.

[Tonyr]

Another comment for Gert's reefing question. I have a 17 foot modified Whitehall with 4'6" beam (i.e. long and narrow, much less beamy than most sail boats). The 65 sq ft sail is a standing lug, boomed, with a loose foot. The reef points are about 32" up from the foot, and reefing reduces the initial area by about 24 sq ft. This is more than Todd suggests for a first reef, and I do have to play the main pretty freely when the wind is getting up, but not quite "too much" yet. The reefed 40 sq ft sail works very well, and I feel safe and in control (until things get totally overwhelming!).

I suspect that my rather large reef is ok because the boat is really a modified rowboat with a very low freeboard (say 13" midships), and low profile. It is thus relatively unaffected by wind, compared to a more conventional open boat of the same length.

Regards, Tony.

[Tonyr]

Another comment for Gert's reefing question. I have a 17 foot modified Whitehall with 4'6" beam (i.e. long and narrow, much less beamy than most sail boats). The 65 sq ft sail is a standing lug, boomed, with a loose foot. The reef points are about 32" up from the foot, and reefing reduces the initial area by about 24 sq ft. This is more than Todd suggests for a first reef, and I do have to play the main pretty freely when the wind is getting up, but not quite "too much" yet. The reefed 40 sq ft sail works very well, and I feel safe and in control (until things get totally overwhelming!).

I suspect that my rather large reef is ok because the boat is really a modified rowboat with a very low freeboard (say 13" midships), and low profile. It is thus relatively unaffected by wind, compared to a more conventional open boat of the same length.

Regards, Tony.

[Ed Burnett]

My earlier comment on sheeting in to slow down was made with medium to large boats in mind. As has been mentioned, it can be risky in a stiff breeze but is a very useful trick in certain circomstances. I use it quite a lot in big cutters where a squared out boom makes the boat rather wide! Not suitable as a long term tactic at sea of course, but pretty handy if you just want to quieten things down a bit. Tricing up the tack is great if you have the gear, and really takes the sting out of gybing.

Ever since I was a child, I have always had a pretty serious aversion to flogging sails. To my way of thinking, good boat handling should look measured and calm. No fuss, minimal noise and no having to deal with manic flogging canvas. The modern tendency to round up into the wind for all sail handling does little for this - how many of us have watched people round up to furl a roller genoa amid terrific noise and general urgency when running off (given the space) would almost halve the apparant wind speed and allow the sail to be rolled easily, neatly and in relative silence.

Again, this is big boat talk where the real skill lies in positioning the boat such that sail handling is easy. If you don't, you get knackered pretty quickly.

[Ed Burnett]

My earlier comment on sheeting in to slow down was made with medium to large boats in mind. As has been mentioned, it can be risky in a stiff breeze but is a very useful trick in certain circomstances. I use it quite a lot in big cutters where a squared out boom makes the boat rather wide! Not suitable as a long term tactic at sea of course, but pretty handy if you just want to quieten things down a bit. Tricing up the tack is great if you have the gear, and really takes the sting out of gybing.

Ever since I was a child, I have always had a pretty serious aversion to flogging sails. To my way of thinking, good boat handling should look measured and calm. No fuss, minimal noise and no having to deal with manic flogging canvas. The modern tendency to round up into the wind for all sail handling does little for this - how many of us have watched people round up to furl a roller genoa amid terrific noise and general urgency when running off (given the space) would almost halve the apparant wind speed and allow the sail to be rolled easily, neatly and in relative silence.

Again, this is big boat talk where the real skill lies in positioning the boat such that sail handling is easy. If you don't, you get knackered pretty quickly.

[Ed Burnett]

My earlier comment on sheeting in to slow down was made with medium to large boats in mind. As has been mentioned, it can be risky in a stiff breeze but is a very useful trick in certain circomstances. I use it quite a lot in big cutters where a squared out boom makes the boat rather wide! Not suitable as a long term tactic at sea of course, but pretty handy if you just want to quieten things down a bit. Tricing up the tack is great if you have the gear, and really takes the sting out of gybing.

Ever since I was a child, I have always had a pretty serious aversion to flogging sails. To my way of thinking, good boat handling should look measured and calm. No fuss, minimal noise and no having to deal with manic flogging canvas. The modern tendency to round up into the wind for all sail handling does little for this - how many of us have watched people round up to furl a roller genoa amid terrific noise and general urgency when running off (given the space) would almost halve the apparant wind speed and allow the sail to be rolled easily, neatly and in relative silence.

Again, this is big boat talk where the real skill lies in positioning the boat such that sail handling is easy. If you don't, you get knackered pretty quickly.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

For the record I agree with Ed (with the proviso that this applies to ballasted, decked, boats with longish keels).

I dislike scandalising the main because

a. The gaff will generally swing out and gather wind again unless you haul it amidships with the topsail sheet, which is more work.

b. You might forget to set up the topping lift, thereby wrecking your mainsail.

c. Re-setting the peak is hard work!

Assuming that you are slowing down because you are in a tight spot, eg amongst moorings, another benefit of hauling the main in is that the boom is less likely to foul another boat's rigging!

And I certainly agree with Ed about flogging sails!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

For the record I agree with Ed (with the proviso that this applies to ballasted, decked, boats with longish keels).

I dislike scandalising the main because

a. The gaff will generally swing out and gather wind again unless you haul it amidships with the topsail sheet, which is more work.

b. You might forget to set up the topping lift, thereby wrecking your mainsail.

c. Re-setting the peak is hard work!

Assuming that you are slowing down because you are in a tight spot, eg amongst moorings, another benefit of hauling the main in is that the boom is less likely to foul another boat's rigging!

And I certainly agree with Ed about flogging sails!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

For the record I agree with Ed (with the proviso that this applies to ballasted, decked, boats with longish keels).

I dislike scandalising the main because

a. The gaff will generally swing out and gather wind again unless you haul it amidships with the topsail sheet, which is more work.

b. You might forget to set up the topping lift, thereby wrecking your mainsail.

c. Re-setting the peak is hard work!

Assuming that you are slowing down because you are in a tight spot, eg amongst moorings, another benefit of hauling the main in is that the boom is less likely to foul another boat's rigging!

And I certainly agree with Ed about flogging sails!