Growing boat lumber

[Greg Stoll]

I am about to purchase 5 acres of what is presently overgrown pasture land. I plan to plant some trees to satisfy the ag zoning, and I would like to plant boat trees. Any thoughts on what types/numbers? Also, any books or thoughts on how to grow it with regards to straightness and keeping it knot-free? Any books on the subject? I'm doing this knowing that I won't harvest for 30 years or more. Any thoughts?

Greg

[Greg Stoll]

I am about to purchase 5 acres of what is presently overgrown pasture land. I plan to plant some trees to satisfy the ag zoning, and I would like to plant boat trees. Any thoughts on what types/numbers? Also, any books or thoughts on how to grow it with regards to straightness and keeping it knot-free? Any books on the subject? I'm doing this knowing that I won't harvest for 30 years or more. Any thoughts?

Greg

[Greg Stoll]

I am about to purchase 5 acres of what is presently overgrown pasture land. I plan to plant some trees to satisfy the ag zoning, and I would like to plant boat trees. Any thoughts on what types/numbers? Also, any books or thoughts on how to grow it with regards to straightness and keeping it knot-free? Any books on the subject? I'm doing this knowing that I won't harvest for 30 years or more. Any thoughts?

Greg

[J P]

Straightness? Lot of curves on boats. How 'bout a knee farm? Black locust maybe - trained into nice curves?

[J P]

Straightness? Lot of curves on boats. How 'bout a knee farm? Black locust maybe - trained into nice curves?

[J P]

Straightness? Lot of curves on boats. How 'bout a knee farm? Black locust maybe - trained into nice curves?

[Alan D. Hyde]

White oak, black walnut, black cherry, white pine, osage orange, locust, cypress, all may be useful.

I wouldn't want a monoculture, but plant with regard to thinning, pruning (avoids those knots) and growth.

Put six inch deep circles of horse manure (from stables that use sawdust bedding) around them spring and fall, just OUTSIDE of the drip line.

Watch how FAST they grow.

If you fail to plant thickly enough, you won't get tall trees with limb-free (knot-free) sawlogs lower down...

Alan

[Alan D. Hyde]

White oak, black walnut, black cherry, white pine, osage orange, locust, cypress, all may be useful.

I wouldn't want a monoculture, but plant with regard to thinning, pruning (avoids those knots) and growth.

Put six inch deep circles of horse manure (from stables that use sawdust bedding) around them spring and fall, just OUTSIDE of the drip line.

Watch how FAST they grow.

If you fail to plant thickly enough, you won't get tall trees with limb-free (knot-free) sawlogs lower down...

Alan

[Alan D. Hyde]

White oak, black walnut, black cherry, white pine, osage orange, locust, cypress, all may be useful.

I wouldn't want a monoculture, but plant with regard to thinning, pruning (avoids those knots) and growth.

Put six inch deep circles of horse manure (from stables that use sawdust bedding) around them spring and fall, just OUTSIDE of the drip line.

Watch how FAST they grow.

If you fail to plant thickly enough, you won't get tall trees with limb-free (knot-free) sawlogs lower down...

Alan

[Hal Forsen]

Think further into the future and plant a few Port Orford Cedar.
HF

[Hal Forsen]

Think further into the future and plant a few Port Orford Cedar.
HF

[Hal Forsen]

Think further into the future and plant a few Port Orford Cedar.
HF

[George Roberts]

Greg Stoll ---

Plant local trees:

WRC, Port Orford Cedar, Sitka Spruce, DF

Some of those will not grow where you are.

[George Roberts]

Greg Stoll ---

Plant local trees:

WRC, Port Orford Cedar, Sitka Spruce, DF

Some of those will not grow where you are.

[George Roberts]

Greg Stoll ---

Plant local trees:

WRC, Port Orford Cedar, Sitka Spruce, DF

Some of those will not grow where you are.

[Greg Stoll]

How long would Port Orford Cedar take to grow to a harvestable state?

[Greg Stoll]

How long would Port Orford Cedar take to grow to a harvestable state?

[Greg Stoll]

How long would Port Orford Cedar take to grow to a harvestable state?

[Donn]

Here's a PDF file that will answer your questions about POC. (http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/pubs/Docs/Frr/Frr005.pdf)

[Donn]

Here's a PDF file that will answer your questions about POC. (http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/pubs/Docs/Frr/Frr005.pdf)

[Donn]

Here's a PDF file that will answer your questions about POC. (http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/pubs/Docs/Frr/Frr005.pdf)

[Gary E]

You wrote...
"I'm doing this knowing that I won't harvest for 30 years or more."

I have no idea how old you are or even if you might be planning on building a boat of the material grown on your own land, but if it was me and even if I was 20 and thought about maybe I'll just saw up a few from the back yard and make a XXXXX boat, the thought of waiting till I was 60 or 70 to do that is redikillus.

Might it be better to plant trees that would sell for a lot of $$ ??... maybe that used in fine furniture as walnut, oak, etc ? Just a thought.

[Gary E]

You wrote...
"I'm doing this knowing that I won't harvest for 30 years or more."

I have no idea how old you are or even if you might be planning on building a boat of the material grown on your own land, but if it was me and even if I was 20 and thought about maybe I'll just saw up a few from the back yard and make a XXXXX boat, the thought of waiting till I was 60 or 70 to do that is redikillus.

Might it be better to plant trees that would sell for a lot of $$ ??... maybe that used in fine furniture as walnut, oak, etc ? Just a thought.

[Gary E]

You wrote...
"I'm doing this knowing that I won't harvest for 30 years or more."

I have no idea how old you are or even if you might be planning on building a boat of the material grown on your own land, but if it was me and even if I was 20 and thought about maybe I'll just saw up a few from the back yard and make a XXXXX boat, the thought of waiting till I was 60 or 70 to do that is redikillus.

Might it be better to plant trees that would sell for a lot of $$ ??... maybe that used in fine furniture as walnut, oak, etc ? Just a thought.

[J P]

Couple more thoughts ...

You might see if there are any forest stewardship workshops available near you.

http://www.odf.state.or.us/DIVISIONS/management/forestry_assistance/assist/stewplan.asp?id=3020104

POC is having trouble with root rot which on the one hand is good reason to plant more, but on the other, is a risk.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/nr/fid/fidls/poc.htm

Fast growth to "harvestable size" does not necessarily mean it will be good quality - softwoods anyway.

Whatever you do, good on ya for planting trees!

[J P]

Couple more thoughts ...

You might see if there are any forest stewardship workshops available near you.

http://www.odf.state.or.us/DIVISIONS/management/forestry_assistance/assist/stewplan.asp?id=3020104

POC is having trouble with root rot which on the one hand is good reason to plant more, but on the other, is a risk.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/nr/fid/fidls/poc.htm

Fast growth to "harvestable size" does not necessarily mean it will be good quality - softwoods anyway.

Whatever you do, good on ya for planting trees!

[J P]

Couple more thoughts ...

You might see if there are any forest stewardship workshops available near you.

http://www.odf.state.or.us/DIVISIONS/management/forestry_assistance/assist/stewplan.asp?id=3020104

POC is having trouble with root rot which on the one hand is good reason to plant more, but on the other, is a risk.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/nr/fid/fidls/poc.htm

Fast growth to "harvestable size" does not necessarily mean it will be good quality - softwoods anyway.

Whatever you do, good on ya for planting trees!

[Hal Forsen]

Amen.
HF

[Hal Forsen]

Amen.
HF

[Hal Forsen]

Amen.
HF

[Bruce Hooke]

What I would highly recommend if you can is hiring a forester to help you come up with a management plan for the land. It shouldn't cost you huge amounts of money and a forester will be able to do things like look at your particular piece of land and tell you what kind of trees will grow well there. Also, at least in some states (Maine is the one I am most familiar with on this count) having a formal forest management plan qualifies you for a lower tax rate.

If that is not in the cards then I would certainly start by focusing on the trees that are native to your immediate area. Since it will take a LONG time for most trees to get to harvestable size the trees will likely have to do pretty well on their own without someone looking out for them and native trees will probably do this the best.

A completely different tack to try if you want something that will grow more quickly would be Paulownia, which is very fast growing and was discussed recently in Richard Jagels' column in WoodenBoat. Here's a website devoted to this tree: http://www.paulownia.org/

[Bruce Hooke]

What I would highly recommend if you can is hiring a forester to help you come up with a management plan for the land. It shouldn't cost you huge amounts of money and a forester will be able to do things like look at your particular piece of land and tell you what kind of trees will grow well there. Also, at least in some states (Maine is the one I am most familiar with on this count) having a formal forest management plan qualifies you for a lower tax rate.

If that is not in the cards then I would certainly start by focusing on the trees that are native to your immediate area. Since it will take a LONG time for most trees to get to harvestable size the trees will likely have to do pretty well on their own without someone looking out for them and native trees will probably do this the best.

A completely different tack to try if you want something that will grow more quickly would be Paulownia, which is very fast growing and was discussed recently in Richard Jagels' column in WoodenBoat. Here's a website devoted to this tree: http://www.paulownia.org/

[Bruce Hooke]

What I would highly recommend if you can is hiring a forester to help you come up with a management plan for the land. It shouldn't cost you huge amounts of money and a forester will be able to do things like look at your particular piece of land and tell you what kind of trees will grow well there. Also, at least in some states (Maine is the one I am most familiar with on this count) having a formal forest management plan qualifies you for a lower tax rate.

If that is not in the cards then I would certainly start by focusing on the trees that are native to your immediate area. Since it will take a LONG time for most trees to get to harvestable size the trees will likely have to do pretty well on their own without someone looking out for them and native trees will probably do this the best.

A completely different tack to try if you want something that will grow more quickly would be Paulownia, which is very fast growing and was discussed recently in Richard Jagels' column in WoodenBoat. Here's a website devoted to this tree: http://www.paulownia.org/

[Bob Smalser]

Did somebody say forester? How about a forest/habitat biologist?

Please don't spend any money....go see your county Soil Conservation Service folks and your Ag Extension County Agent. They are there to provide you this very service.

The SCS sells seedlings at cost every spring...they take orders in January for March delivery....all native stock. I plant several hundred every year on my two tree farms and on habitat remediation jobs I do for others.

Native stock is best...and there may even be rules where you are on what you can and can't plant...it'll be in your State and County Critical Areas Ordinance.

That doesn't mean you can't do some intelligent substitution....

...Red Alder is your leguminous pioneer species like here, I believe, and many down there have successfully and harmlessly planted eastern Black Locust in its stead.

Port Orford Cedar is native and rare and would be an excellent choice...but it needs water and good soil. Shade tolerant but also tolerates full sun. Western Red and Incense Cedars would be additional choices.

Sitka isn't native down there and I'm unsure how it will do.

Garry Oak is an excellent white building oak and is your native oak...it likes dry, gravelly soil and full sun.

Doug Fir is the most common planting, but I'd wait til the cedars and locust were head high before planting any, as it isn't shade tolerant but light shade and tough competition are what gives you the best, tight-ringed wood.

For the critters, add some Quaking Aspen, Golden Chinquapin and Cascara to your mix...excellent browse and mast species.

I'd also want some Pacific Dogwood, Pacific Madrone, and some old-time non-hybrid apple trees of a variety that gets big and will grow wild (ask the County Agent for local sources). You'll need some crooks and tool handles some day.

And also some Bigleaf Maple for figured hardwood...this tree you don't want to prune as the figured wood is beneath the branches.

The immediate problem on overgrown, sunny pasture is to keep out the blackberries, alder and undesirables. I'd look at turning it all under and replanting with a Berseem Multicut Clover-Alfalfa mix and a groundcover and base for planting trees. Needs lime but no fertilizer....a controlled burn can substitute for the lime. The deep-rooted alfalfa brings water up to the shallow-rooted clover and no irrigation is requires. Plus the critters love it.

How dense to plant when the time comes? As dense as you can afford...with the idea of crowding out the undersirables....then thin it as it grows until you reach 40 trees or so per acre at the 20 year mark or so. Prune the lower branches as they grow to create clear boles.

The cedars, maple and cascara are watercourse trees that'll require some watering the first few years to get started....but water will aid all of them, as will a low-nitrogen fertilizer after year two (fertilize them the first year and you'll kill them with kindness.)

Taxes? Ask your county assessor about Open Space tax classification and see if it's cheaper than Ag or Timberland. With all of them, if you desire to build on the property you'll have to carve out an acre building site and pay 7 years back taxes against Rural Residential rates...but that won't amount to much compared with the savings accrued in Ag/Timber/OS....between 70% and 90% savings over RR rates.

What you can't get from the SCS you can get from Wallace Hansen...tell him I sent you:

http://www.nwplants.com/

And my favorite clover-alfalfa mix is available here:

http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/

...and here:

http://www.abseed.com/

It's also the cat's meow as a lawn substitute in suburbia...doesn't need irrigation and the deer come in at night and keep it cropped for you.

[ 09-24-2004, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

Did somebody say forester? How about a forest/habitat biologist?

Please don't spend any money....go see your county Soil Conservation Service folks and your Ag Extension County Agent. They are there to provide you this very service.

The SCS sells seedlings at cost every spring...they take orders in January for March delivery....all native stock. I plant several hundred every year on my two tree farms and on habitat remediation jobs I do for others.

Native stock is best...and there may even be rules where you are on what you can and can't plant...it'll be in your State and County Critical Areas Ordinance.

That doesn't mean you can't do some intelligent substitution....

...Red Alder is your leguminous pioneer species like here, I believe, and many down there have successfully and harmlessly planted eastern Black Locust in its stead.

Port Orford Cedar is native and rare and would be an excellent choice...but it needs water and good soil. Shade tolerant but also tolerates full sun. Western Red and Incense Cedars would be additional choices.

Sitka isn't native down there and I'm unsure how it will do.

Garry Oak is an excellent white building oak and is your native oak...it likes dry, gravelly soil and full sun.

Doug Fir is the most common planting, but I'd wait til the cedars and locust were head high before planting any, as it isn't shade tolerant but light shade and tough competition are what gives you the best, tight-ringed wood.

For the critters, add some Quaking Aspen, Golden Chinquapin and Cascara to your mix...excellent browse and mast species.

I'd also want some Pacific Dogwood, Pacific Madrone, and some old-time non-hybrid apple trees of a variety that gets big and will grow wild (ask the County Agent for local sources). You'll need some crooks and tool handles some day.

And also some Bigleaf Maple for figured hardwood...this tree you don't want to prune as the figured wood is beneath the branches.

The immediate problem on overgrown, sunny pasture is to keep out the blackberries, alder and undesirables. I'd look at turning it all under and replanting with a Berseem Multicut Clover-Alfalfa mix and a groundcover and base for planting trees. Needs lime but no fertilizer....a controlled burn can substitute for the lime. The deep-rooted alfalfa brings water up to the shallow-rooted clover and no irrigation is requires. Plus the critters love it.

How dense to plant when the time comes? As dense as you can afford...with the idea of crowding out the undersirables....then thin it as it grows until you reach 40 trees or so per acre at the 20 year mark or so. Prune the lower branches as they grow to create clear boles.

The cedars, maple and cascara are watercourse trees that'll require some watering the first few years to get started....but water will aid all of them, as will a low-nitrogen fertilizer after year two (fertilize them the first year and you'll kill them with kindness.)

Taxes? Ask your county assessor about Open Space tax classification and see if it's cheaper than Ag or Timberland. With all of them, if you desire to build on the property you'll have to carve out an acre building site and pay 7 years back taxes against Rural Residential rates...but that won't amount to much compared with the savings accrued in Ag/Timber/OS....between 70% and 90% savings over RR rates.

What you can't get from the SCS you can get from Wallace Hansen...tell him I sent you:

http://www.nwplants.com/

And my favorite clover-alfalfa mix is available here:

http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/

...and here:

http://www.abseed.com/

It's also the cat's meow as a lawn substitute in suburbia...doesn't need irrigation and the deer come in at night and keep it cropped for you.

[ 09-24-2004, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

Did somebody say forester? How about a forest/habitat biologist?

Please don't spend any money....go see your county Soil Conservation Service folks and your Ag Extension County Agent. They are there to provide you this very service.

The SCS sells seedlings at cost every spring...they take orders in January for March delivery....all native stock. I plant several hundred every year on my two tree farms and on habitat remediation jobs I do for others.

Native stock is best...and there may even be rules where you are on what you can and can't plant...it'll be in your State and County Critical Areas Ordinance.

That doesn't mean you can't do some intelligent substitution....

...Red Alder is your leguminous pioneer species like here, I believe, and many down there have successfully and harmlessly planted eastern Black Locust in its stead.

Port Orford Cedar is native and rare and would be an excellent choice...but it needs water and good soil. Shade tolerant but also tolerates full sun. Western Red and Incense Cedars would be additional choices.

Sitka isn't native down there and I'm unsure how it will do.

Garry Oak is an excellent white building oak and is your native oak...it likes dry, gravelly soil and full sun.

Doug Fir is the most common planting, but I'd wait til the cedars and locust were head high before planting any, as it isn't shade tolerant but light shade and tough competition are what gives you the best, tight-ringed wood.

For the critters, add some Quaking Aspen, Golden Chinquapin and Cascara to your mix...excellent browse and mast species.

I'd also want some Pacific Dogwood, Pacific Madrone, and some old-time non-hybrid apple trees of a variety that gets big and will grow wild (ask the County Agent for local sources). You'll need some crooks and tool handles some day.

And also some Bigleaf Maple for figured hardwood...this tree you don't want to prune as the figured wood is beneath the branches.

The immediate problem on overgrown, sunny pasture is to keep out the blackberries, alder and undesirables. I'd look at turning it all under and replanting with a Berseem Multicut Clover-Alfalfa mix and a groundcover and base for planting trees. Needs lime but no fertilizer....a controlled burn can substitute for the lime. The deep-rooted alfalfa brings water up to the shallow-rooted clover and no irrigation is requires. Plus the critters love it.

How dense to plant when the time comes? As dense as you can afford...with the idea of crowding out the undersirables....then thin it as it grows until you reach 40 trees or so per acre at the 20 year mark or so. Prune the lower branches as they grow to create clear boles.

The cedars, maple and cascara are watercourse trees that'll require some watering the first few years to get started....but water will aid all of them, as will a low-nitrogen fertilizer after year two (fertilize them the first year and you'll kill them with kindness.)

Taxes? Ask your county assessor about Open Space tax classification and see if it's cheaper than Ag or Timberland. With all of them, if you desire to build on the property you'll have to carve out an acre building site and pay 7 years back taxes against Rural Residential rates...but that won't amount to much compared with the savings accrued in Ag/Timber/OS....between 70% and 90% savings over RR rates.

What you can't get from the SCS you can get from Wallace Hansen...tell him I sent you:

http://www.nwplants.com/

And my favorite clover-alfalfa mix is available here:

http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/

...and here:

http://www.abseed.com/

It's also the cat's meow as a lawn substitute in suburbia...doesn't need irrigation and the deer come in at night and keep it cropped for you.

[ 09-24-2004, 05:02 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Tom M.]

Greg, I would love to see you and more people do this, BUT, I wouldn't expect to harvest all of it in your lifetime. If you let your grandchildren enjoy your foresight, the harvest will be better.

[Tom M.]

Greg, I would love to see you and more people do this, BUT, I wouldn't expect to harvest all of it in your lifetime. If you let your grandchildren enjoy your foresight, the harvest will be better.

[Tom M.]

Greg, I would love to see you and more people do this, BUT, I wouldn't expect to harvest all of it in your lifetime. If you let your grandchildren enjoy your foresight, the harvest will be better.

[Greg Stoll]

Now keep in mind that I'm 24 years old... Still unrealistic? Or should I just plant a small orchard, grow a garden and throw some cows and horses on the rest?

Greg

[Greg Stoll]

Now keep in mind that I'm 24 years old... Still unrealistic? Or should I just plant a small orchard, grow a garden and throw some cows and horses on the rest?

Greg

[Greg Stoll]

Now keep in mind that I'm 24 years old... Still unrealistic? Or should I just plant a small orchard, grow a garden and throw some cows and horses on the rest?

Greg

[Bruce Hooke]

The story Brian is referring to was originally published in 1954 in, of all places, Vogue magazine. It has long been available as a book under the title of The Man Who Planted Trees. It is a work of fiction, but it is a wonderful story none-the-less. It was written by Jean Giono and the Chelsea Green edition is illustrated with beautiful wood engravings by Micheal McCurdy.

[Bruce Hooke]

The story Brian is referring to was originally published in 1954 in, of all places, Vogue magazine. It has long been available as a book under the title of The Man Who Planted Trees. It is a work of fiction, but it is a wonderful story none-the-less. It was written by Jean Giono and the Chelsea Green edition is illustrated with beautiful wood engravings by Micheal McCurdy.

[Bruce Hooke]

The story Brian is referring to was originally published in 1954 in, of all places, Vogue magazine. It has long been available as a book under the title of The Man Who Planted Trees. It is a work of fiction, but it is a wonderful story none-the-less. It was written by Jean Giono and the Chelsea Green edition is illustrated with beautiful wood engravings by Micheal McCurdy.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
The story Brian is referring to was originally published in 1954 in, of all places, Vogue magazine. It has long been available as a book under the title of The Man Who Planted Trees. It is a work of fiction, but it is a wonderful story none-the-less. It was written by Jean Giono and the Chelsea Green edition is illustrated with beautiful wood engravings by Micheal McCurdy.What wierd synchronicity… I just posted on this very topic.

See this thread (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001824) up in People&Places.

I highly recommend the animated short made from Jean Giono's story. Better even than the book if such a thing is possible.

[ 09-30-2004, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
The story Brian is referring to was originally published in 1954 in, of all places, Vogue magazine. It has long been available as a book under the title of The Man Who Planted Trees. It is a work of fiction, but it is a wonderful story none-the-less. It was written by Jean Giono and the Chelsea Green edition is illustrated with beautiful wood engravings by Micheal McCurdy.What wierd synchronicity… I just posted on this very topic.

See this thread (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001824) up in People&Places.

I highly recommend the animated short made from Jean Giono's story. Better even than the book if such a thing is possible.

[ 09-30-2004, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
The story Brian is referring to was originally published in 1954 in, of all places, Vogue magazine. It has long been available as a book under the title of The Man Who Planted Trees. It is a work of fiction, but it is a wonderful story none-the-less. It was written by Jean Giono and the Chelsea Green edition is illustrated with beautiful wood engravings by Micheal McCurdy.What wierd synchronicity… I just posted on this very topic.

See this thread (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001824) up in People&Places.

I highly recommend the animated short made from Jean Giono's story. Better even than the book if such a thing is possible.

[ 09-30-2004, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]