Source for N. White Cedar In CA

[dmede]

I'm going to build Harry Bryans 12" fiddlehead canoe and his plans call for N. white cedar (as well as spruce and oak). The oak I got, and I think the local shops have spruce too, but no white cedar, only red. Anybody know a good source in N. CA or a place to order from?

Thanks, Dave.

[dmede]

I'm going to build Harry Bryans 12" fiddlehead canoe and his plans call for N. white cedar (as well as spruce and oak). The oak I got, and I think the local shops have spruce too, but no white cedar, only red. Anybody know a good source in N. CA or a place to order from?

Thanks, Dave.

[dmede]

I'm going to build Harry Bryans 12" fiddlehead canoe and his plans call for N. white cedar (as well as spruce and oak). The oak I got, and I think the local shops have spruce too, but no white cedar, only red. Anybody know a good source in N. CA or a place to order from?

Thanks, Dave.

[Tom Lathrop]

If I lived in CA, I would be using red cedar instead of Atlantic white. They are close in weight and strength with the edge to red. Red is also easier to get in clear lengths. In fact the most rot resistant white cedar will likely be from the earlier growth near the heart with knots.

[Tom Lathrop]

If I lived in CA, I would be using red cedar instead of Atlantic white. They are close in weight and strength with the edge to red. Red is also easier to get in clear lengths. In fact the most rot resistant white cedar will likely be from the earlier growth near the heart with knots.

[Tom Lathrop]

If I lived in CA, I would be using red cedar instead of Atlantic white. They are close in weight and strength with the edge to red. Red is also easier to get in clear lengths. In fact the most rot resistant white cedar will likely be from the earlier growth near the heart with knots.

[Nicholas Carey]

I think (might be wrong :D ) that western red cedar is a bit more brittle than Atlantic/Northern white cedar.

You might also want to look at using Alaskan yellow cedar. A fine wood. Smells nice, too. It's a bit heavier than WRC, but a lot stronger.

[Nicholas Carey]

I think (might be wrong :D ) that western red cedar is a bit more brittle than Atlantic/Northern white cedar.

You might also want to look at using Alaskan yellow cedar. A fine wood. Smells nice, too. It's a bit heavier than WRC, but a lot stronger.

[Nicholas Carey]

I think (might be wrong :D ) that western red cedar is a bit more brittle than Atlantic/Northern white cedar.

You might also want to look at using Alaskan yellow cedar. A fine wood. Smells nice, too. It's a bit heavier than WRC, but a lot stronger.

[dmede]

Yeah, I have read that Western Red is not as strong as whte cedar and doesn't take fastenings as well. Since this boat will be clench nailed together thats a concern. Harry actually makes a substituion reccomendation in his plans, but thier not here with me right now. I think it might be to use spruce.

[dmede]

Yeah, I have read that Western Red is not as strong as whte cedar and doesn't take fastenings as well. Since this boat will be clench nailed together thats a concern. Harry actually makes a substituion reccomendation in his plans, but thier not here with me right now. I think it might be to use spruce.

[dmede]

Yeah, I have read that Western Red is not as strong as whte cedar and doesn't take fastenings as well. Since this boat will be clench nailed together thats a concern. Harry actually makes a substituion reccomendation in his plans, but thier not here with me right now. I think it might be to use spruce.

[Venchka]

There really is no substitute for real Northern White Cedar. Especially for a wee canoe. Unless you live in New England it's hard to find. And getting harder to find up there. I've got a chunck of it in the garage. It feels like balsa wood it's so light.

[Venchka]

There really is no substitute for real Northern White Cedar. Especially for a wee canoe. Unless you live in New England it's hard to find. And getting harder to find up there. I've got a chunck of it in the garage. It feels like balsa wood it's so light.

[Venchka]

There really is no substitute for real Northern White Cedar. Especially for a wee canoe. Unless you live in New England it's hard to find. And getting harder to find up there. I've got a chunck of it in the garage. It feels like balsa wood it's so light.

[dmede]

if i were going to order it, if thats even possible, whats a good source? anybody online?

it's such a small amount i figure might as well get the right stuff if i can.

[dmede]

if i were going to order it, if thats even possible, whats a good source? anybody online?

it's such a small amount i figure might as well get the right stuff if i can.

[dmede]

if i were going to order it, if thats even possible, whats a good source? anybody online?

it's such a small amount i figure might as well get the right stuff if i can.

[Bob Smalser]

Here are the USDA Test values for comparison that refute many commonly-held beliefs...Port Orford and Alaska Yellow are significantly heavier:

Weight (SG): NWC .31, WRC .32
Strength: NWC 6500 and 4.8, WRC 7500 and 5.8
Elasticity: NWC .80, WRC 1.11
Impact Bending: NWC 3960, WRC 4560
Hardness: NWC 320, WRC 350

So there's nuthin wrong with WRC for your application...it's just as good or even slightly better...at a small fraction of the cost of shipping in NWC.

And that's run-of-the mill, 8-10 rings to the inch storebought stock. Go find you a local sawyer with some salvaged old-growth stock of 15 rings to the inch or better he can q-saw into your planking needs and you'll be in real tall cotton on durability.

You want airdried, quarter of rift-sawn stock stable to the outside air. Cut away all the sapwood if you can.

http://www.sawmill-exchange.com/index.htm

http://www.mobilemfg.com/

http://www.baileys-online.com/

http://www.woodmizer.com/welcome.html

http://www.powersources.com/timberwolf/?43,62

Check the phonebook and the mill manufacturers/sellers for portable sawmillers locally. The mill builders are happy to provide names of local guys who own their mills. Local tree service guys will know of them, too. Few advertise.

A lot of them sell their excess lumber on the Wood Exchange:

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/lumber.pl

A whole number of arborists or their employees run their own mills to salvage something more useful than firewood out of the trees they cut....I know 4 arborists here and each one has a mill somewhere in their firm....and they know guys like me with portable mills they sell special logs to.


[ 02-13-2004, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

Here are the USDA Test values for comparison that refute many commonly-held beliefs...Port Orford and Alaska Yellow are significantly heavier:

Weight (SG): NWC .31, WRC .32
Strength: NWC 6500 and 4.8, WRC 7500 and 5.8
Elasticity: NWC .80, WRC 1.11
Impact Bending: NWC 3960, WRC 4560
Hardness: NWC 320, WRC 350

So there's nuthin wrong with WRC for your application...it's just as good or even slightly better...at a small fraction of the cost of shipping in NWC.

And that's run-of-the mill, 8-10 rings to the inch storebought stock. Go find you a local sawyer with some salvaged old-growth stock of 15 rings to the inch or better he can q-saw into your planking needs and you'll be in real tall cotton on durability.

You want airdried, quarter of rift-sawn stock stable to the outside air. Cut away all the sapwood if you can.

http://www.sawmill-exchange.com/index.htm

http://www.mobilemfg.com/

http://www.baileys-online.com/

http://www.woodmizer.com/welcome.html

http://www.powersources.com/timberwolf/?43,62

Check the phonebook and the mill manufacturers/sellers for portable sawmillers locally. The mill builders are happy to provide names of local guys who own their mills. Local tree service guys will know of them, too. Few advertise.

A lot of them sell their excess lumber on the Wood Exchange:

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/lumber.pl

A whole number of arborists or their employees run their own mills to salvage something more useful than firewood out of the trees they cut....I know 4 arborists here and each one has a mill somewhere in their firm....and they know guys like me with portable mills they sell special logs to.


[ 02-13-2004, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

Here are the USDA Test values for comparison that refute many commonly-held beliefs...Port Orford and Alaska Yellow are significantly heavier:

Weight (SG): NWC .31, WRC .32
Strength: NWC 6500 and 4.8, WRC 7500 and 5.8
Elasticity: NWC .80, WRC 1.11
Impact Bending: NWC 3960, WRC 4560
Hardness: NWC 320, WRC 350

So there's nuthin wrong with WRC for your application...it's just as good or even slightly better...at a small fraction of the cost of shipping in NWC.

And that's run-of-the mill, 8-10 rings to the inch storebought stock. Go find you a local sawyer with some salvaged old-growth stock of 15 rings to the inch or better he can q-saw into your planking needs and you'll be in real tall cotton on durability.

You want airdried, quarter of rift-sawn stock stable to the outside air. Cut away all the sapwood if you can.

http://www.sawmill-exchange.com/index.htm

http://www.mobilemfg.com/

http://www.baileys-online.com/

http://www.woodmizer.com/welcome.html

http://www.powersources.com/timberwolf/?43,62

Check the phonebook and the mill manufacturers/sellers for portable sawmillers locally. The mill builders are happy to provide names of local guys who own their mills. Local tree service guys will know of them, too. Few advertise.

A lot of them sell their excess lumber on the Wood Exchange:

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/lumber.pl

A whole number of arborists or their employees run their own mills to salvage something more useful than firewood out of the trees they cut....I know 4 arborists here and each one has a mill somewhere in their firm....and they know guys like me with portable mills they sell special logs to.


[ 02-13-2004, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[dmede]

Thanks for that authoritative reply Bob and for the links. I guess I'll have to give WRC a try.

[dmede]

Thanks for that authoritative reply Bob and for the links. I guess I'll have to give WRC a try.

[dmede]

Thanks for that authoritative reply Bob and for the links. I guess I'll have to give WRC a try.

[George Roberts]

dmede ---

4x4x8' WRC fence posts at the big box stores are often clear. Ok, 1 or 2 in a bundle are clear.

[George Roberts]

dmede ---

4x4x8' WRC fence posts at the big box stores are often clear. Ok, 1 or 2 in a bundle are clear.

[George Roberts]

dmede ---

4x4x8' WRC fence posts at the big box stores are often clear. Ok, 1 or 2 in a bundle are clear.

[Bob Smalser]

If you are talking about strips rather than veneer or conventional planking, then you can high-grade (cutting around the knots) cheap posts very nicely.

That fence material is generally cut and shipped green...much of it from B.C. and much of it real tight-grained. By the time you get it resawed into q-sawn strips, it will be dry enuf to use. If in doubt about that, then let it sit for a week or two in the shop and it will be then. Conventional planking likes 15-20 pct M/C but epoxy likes it drier....like at 10-12pct....so let it dry some if it's to be glued. Cedar can be dried fast without warp or split.

Posts are taken from the center of the log and are generally pure heartwood....just make sure you don't include the pith or heart center in any of your stock.

[ 02-13-2004, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

If you are talking about strips rather than veneer or conventional planking, then you can high-grade (cutting around the knots) cheap posts very nicely.

That fence material is generally cut and shipped green...much of it from B.C. and much of it real tight-grained. By the time you get it resawed into q-sawn strips, it will be dry enuf to use. If in doubt about that, then let it sit for a week or two in the shop and it will be then. Conventional planking likes 15-20 pct M/C but epoxy likes it drier....like at 10-12pct....so let it dry some if it's to be glued. Cedar can be dried fast without warp or split.

Posts are taken from the center of the log and are generally pure heartwood....just make sure you don't include the pith or heart center in any of your stock.

[ 02-13-2004, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

If you are talking about strips rather than veneer or conventional planking, then you can high-grade (cutting around the knots) cheap posts very nicely.

That fence material is generally cut and shipped green...much of it from B.C. and much of it real tight-grained. By the time you get it resawed into q-sawn strips, it will be dry enuf to use. If in doubt about that, then let it sit for a week or two in the shop and it will be then. Conventional planking likes 15-20 pct M/C but epoxy likes it drier....like at 10-12pct....so let it dry some if it's to be glued. Cedar can be dried fast without warp or split.

Posts are taken from the center of the log and are generally pure heartwood....just make sure you don't include the pith or heart center in any of your stock.

[ 02-13-2004, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[imported_Steven Bauer]

He's gonna need some wide planking stock for that boat. My Harry Bryan designed Thistle is almost identical to the Fiddlehead. I think the garboard is gotten out of a 11" wide plank. I took an 8" and 4" wide 1 by and edge glued them with epoxy, let the glue cure really well and then resawed them in half and planed them down to 5/16". Worked fine. If I'd made a pattern ahead of time I could have just made up the width at the ends. Most of what I added just got cut off.

Here is the pattern for the garboard laying on the plaking stock.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid20/pa7b6d2abf345d18908e0e5497d17d6eb/fdb9a51f.jpg

Hers's the garboard installed:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid20/p80d5a91f032752d2b1b9640a2109427a/fdb9a533.jpg

Here's the album:

Building Thistle (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291900137)

[imported_Steven Bauer]

He's gonna need some wide planking stock for that boat. My Harry Bryan designed Thistle is almost identical to the Fiddlehead. I think the garboard is gotten out of a 11" wide plank. I took an 8" and 4" wide 1 by and edge glued them with epoxy, let the glue cure really well and then resawed them in half and planed them down to 5/16". Worked fine. If I'd made a pattern ahead of time I could have just made up the width at the ends. Most of what I added just got cut off.

Here is the pattern for the garboard laying on the plaking stock.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid20/pa7b6d2abf345d18908e0e5497d17d6eb/fdb9a51f.jpg

Hers's the garboard installed:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid20/p80d5a91f032752d2b1b9640a2109427a/fdb9a533.jpg

Here's the album:

Building Thistle (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291900137)

[imported_Steven Bauer]

He's gonna need some wide planking stock for that boat. My Harry Bryan designed Thistle is almost identical to the Fiddlehead. I think the garboard is gotten out of a 11" wide plank. I took an 8" and 4" wide 1 by and edge glued them with epoxy, let the glue cure really well and then resawed them in half and planed them down to 5/16". Worked fine. If I'd made a pattern ahead of time I could have just made up the width at the ends. Most of what I added just got cut off.

Here is the pattern for the garboard laying on the plaking stock.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid20/pa7b6d2abf345d18908e0e5497d17d6eb/fdb9a51f.jpg

Hers's the garboard installed:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid20/p80d5a91f032752d2b1b9640a2109427a/fdb9a533.jpg

Here's the album:

Building Thistle (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291900137)

[Bob Smalser]

I took an 8" and 4" wide 1 by and edge glued them with epoxy... I do that all the time, as q-sawn stock that wide is hard to come by....even milling your own trees.

Epoxy makes it viable, IMO.

[Bob Smalser]

I took an 8" and 4" wide 1 by and edge glued them with epoxy... I do that all the time, as q-sawn stock that wide is hard to come by....even milling your own trees.

Epoxy makes it viable, IMO.

[Bob Smalser]

I took an 8" and 4" wide 1 by and edge glued them with epoxy... I do that all the time, as q-sawn stock that wide is hard to come by....even milling your own trees.

Epoxy makes it viable, IMO.

[Jon Etheredge]

Instead of edge glueing to make up an 11" wide board you can also scarf an 8" wide board at a slight angle so it follows the curve of the pattern. This method has the advantage of limiting the grain run out in the ends of the plank and there is less scrap. You won't need as many clamps for the glue up either smile.gif

[Jon Etheredge]

Instead of edge glueing to make up an 11" wide board you can also scarf an 8" wide board at a slight angle so it follows the curve of the pattern. This method has the advantage of limiting the grain run out in the ends of the plank and there is less scrap. You won't need as many clamps for the glue up either smile.gif

[Jon Etheredge]

Instead of edge glueing to make up an 11" wide board you can also scarf an 8" wide board at a slight angle so it follows the curve of the pattern. This method has the advantage of limiting the grain run out in the ends of the plank and there is less scrap. You won't need as many clamps for the glue up either smile.gif

[Venchka]

Bob,

You got me to thinking. Had John Gardner been born in your neck of the woods and built boats around Puget Sound he would have extolled the virtues of western red cedar for small, light clinker boats. Of course I would still be midway between and 2,000+ miles from the source of either northern white or western red cedar.

Thanks for the good word as always. You should be writing regularly for our hosts.

[Venchka]

Bob,

You got me to thinking. Had John Gardner been born in your neck of the woods and built boats around Puget Sound he would have extolled the virtues of western red cedar for small, light clinker boats. Of course I would still be midway between and 2,000+ miles from the source of either northern white or western red cedar.

Thanks for the good word as always. You should be writing regularly for our hosts.

[Venchka]

Bob,

You got me to thinking. Had John Gardner been born in your neck of the woods and built boats around Puget Sound he would have extolled the virtues of western red cedar for small, light clinker boats. Of course I would still be midway between and 2,000+ miles from the source of either northern white or western red cedar.

Thanks for the good word as always. You should be writing regularly for our hosts.

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Had John Gardner been born in your neck of the woods and built boats around Puget Sound he would have extolled the virtues of western red cedar for small, light clinker boats. Although I've owned forest land out here for a long time, I'm basically an eastern transplant (we used Atlantic Cedar when I was a kid) and read Gardner's books for decades before I ever cut a stick of WRC....he didn't like it because he thought it was too soft.

Took me a while milling and using it and watching others here build with it before I realized that he was wrong.

That doesn't lessen Gardner in my eyes, tho.

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Had John Gardner been born in your neck of the woods and built boats around Puget Sound he would have extolled the virtues of western red cedar for small, light clinker boats. Although I've owned forest land out here for a long time, I'm basically an eastern transplant (we used Atlantic Cedar when I was a kid) and read Gardner's books for decades before I ever cut a stick of WRC....he didn't like it because he thought it was too soft.

Took me a while milling and using it and watching others here build with it before I realized that he was wrong.

That doesn't lessen Gardner in my eyes, tho.

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Had John Gardner been born in your neck of the woods and built boats around Puget Sound he would have extolled the virtues of western red cedar for small, light clinker boats. Although I've owned forest land out here for a long time, I'm basically an eastern transplant (we used Atlantic Cedar when I was a kid) and read Gardner's books for decades before I ever cut a stick of WRC....he didn't like it because he thought it was too soft.

Took me a while milling and using it and watching others here build with it before I realized that he was wrong.

That doesn't lessen Gardner in my eyes, tho.

[Venchka]

I was thinking more in terms of local availability when it comes to what long time builders and designers specify. Gardner was also quite fond of Nova Scotia spruce for just about every part of a small boat. Imagine the frustration of someone on the west coast chasing about lumber yards looking for northern white cedar and Nova Scotia spruce. In the process, bypassing perfectly good locally available boatbuilding lumber.

Back to the question of shipping northern cedar from New England to California. Talk to FedEx Ground. They had the best rates for quantities less than what you would ship by regular truck freight. I know there is a 20 board foot bundle rate. The good news is that the wood is light. Bad news is that you'll need lengths longer than the freight folks are comfortable with. Where to get it? Good question. Start with this guy and work outwards.

TWEEDIE LUMBER, INC. (http://www.tweedielumber.com/index.html)

Then buy WRC locally.

[ 02-14-2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Venchka]

I was thinking more in terms of local availability when it comes to what long time builders and designers specify. Gardner was also quite fond of Nova Scotia spruce for just about every part of a small boat. Imagine the frustration of someone on the west coast chasing about lumber yards looking for northern white cedar and Nova Scotia spruce. In the process, bypassing perfectly good locally available boatbuilding lumber.

Back to the question of shipping northern cedar from New England to California. Talk to FedEx Ground. They had the best rates for quantities less than what you would ship by regular truck freight. I know there is a 20 board foot bundle rate. The good news is that the wood is light. Bad news is that you'll need lengths longer than the freight folks are comfortable with. Where to get it? Good question. Start with this guy and work outwards.

TWEEDIE LUMBER, INC. (http://www.tweedielumber.com/index.html)

Then buy WRC locally.

[ 02-14-2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Venchka]

I was thinking more in terms of local availability when it comes to what long time builders and designers specify. Gardner was also quite fond of Nova Scotia spruce for just about every part of a small boat. Imagine the frustration of someone on the west coast chasing about lumber yards looking for northern white cedar and Nova Scotia spruce. In the process, bypassing perfectly good locally available boatbuilding lumber.

Back to the question of shipping northern cedar from New England to California. Talk to FedEx Ground. They had the best rates for quantities less than what you would ship by regular truck freight. I know there is a 20 board foot bundle rate. The good news is that the wood is light. Bad news is that you'll need lengths longer than the freight folks are comfortable with. Where to get it? Good question. Start with this guy and work outwards.

TWEEDIE LUMBER, INC. (http://www.tweedielumber.com/index.html)

Then buy WRC locally.

[ 02-14-2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Bruce Hooke]

According to Wood Finder (http://www.wdfinder.com/wdf/vendor.phtml?id=12188) this place in Solana Beach, CA does sell white cedar. At least they are on your coast even if they are not that close.

Western Red Cedar may well be the best way to go. My one concern would be that it does seem like it splits a good bit easier than Northern White Cedar, but I don't have a ton of experience with either.

[ 02-14-2004, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Bruce Hooke]

According to Wood Finder (http://www.wdfinder.com/wdf/vendor.phtml?id=12188) this place in Solana Beach, CA does sell white cedar. At least they are on your coast even if they are not that close.

Western Red Cedar may well be the best way to go. My one concern would be that it does seem like it splits a good bit easier than Northern White Cedar, but I don't have a ton of experience with either.

[ 02-14-2004, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Bruce Hooke]

According to Wood Finder (http://www.wdfinder.com/wdf/vendor.phtml?id=12188) this place in Solana Beach, CA does sell white cedar. At least they are on your coast even if they are not that close.

Western Red Cedar may well be the best way to go. My one concern would be that it does seem like it splits a good bit easier than Northern White Cedar, but I don't have a ton of experience with either.

[ 02-14-2004, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Ron Williamson]

WRC does split way easier than NWC.
A sign guy that I know has problems with his Q-sawed WRC just in the handling.If he drops it,it splits.Now this is short sign blanks I'm talking about,not boat lumber.In my experience WRC is stiffer and more brittle,especially clear KD stock,while NWC is spongey(sp) and softer.You can't put screws into the red without predrilling the way you can with Northern white(I can't say much about Atlantic white)
About the same differences that spruce and white pine have.
R
R

[Ron Williamson]

WRC does split way easier than NWC.
A sign guy that I know has problems with his Q-sawed WRC just in the handling.If he drops it,it splits.Now this is short sign blanks I'm talking about,not boat lumber.In my experience WRC is stiffer and more brittle,especially clear KD stock,while NWC is spongey(sp) and softer.You can't put screws into the red without predrilling the way you can with Northern white(I can't say much about Atlantic white)
About the same differences that spruce and white pine have.
R
R

[Ron Williamson]

WRC does split way easier than NWC.
A sign guy that I know has problems with his Q-sawed WRC just in the handling.If he drops it,it splits.Now this is short sign blanks I'm talking about,not boat lumber.In my experience WRC is stiffer and more brittle,especially clear KD stock,while NWC is spongey(sp) and softer.You can't put screws into the red without predrilling the way you can with Northern white(I can't say much about Atlantic white)
About the same differences that spruce and white pine have.
R
R

[dmede]

Thanks for all the replys. Ive been away so not able to reaspond over the weekend.

My garboard will be taken from a 10 1/2" wide board (unless I scarph some smaller peices to shape). The WRC I saw this weekend looked ok, but deffinetly soft. I have no experience with NWC so I can't compare. I do know that Greg Rossel says that WRC is "quite brittle and low in streagth, often breaking across the grain". He mentins it's good for strip planking and cold molded veneers but not the best for other types of planking.

Harry Bryan mentions substituting pine for the cedar. I can find clear pine here but not sure if it's the correct species. I know yellow is not a good choice. Is there white pine on the west coast?

I will probably need to call Harry and get his opinion on this issue. I't's the fiorst time I will be using real wood for planks instead of ply and I want to make sure I use something that I will be happy with.

[dmede]

Thanks for all the replys. Ive been away so not able to reaspond over the weekend.

My garboard will be taken from a 10 1/2" wide board (unless I scarph some smaller peices to shape). The WRC I saw this weekend looked ok, but deffinetly soft. I have no experience with NWC so I can't compare. I do know that Greg Rossel says that WRC is "quite brittle and low in streagth, often breaking across the grain". He mentins it's good for strip planking and cold molded veneers but not the best for other types of planking.

Harry Bryan mentions substituting pine for the cedar. I can find clear pine here but not sure if it's the correct species. I know yellow is not a good choice. Is there white pine on the west coast?

I will probably need to call Harry and get his opinion on this issue. I't's the fiorst time I will be using real wood for planks instead of ply and I want to make sure I use something that I will be happy with.

[dmede]

Thanks for all the replys. Ive been away so not able to reaspond over the weekend.

My garboard will be taken from a 10 1/2" wide board (unless I scarph some smaller peices to shape). The WRC I saw this weekend looked ok, but deffinetly soft. I have no experience with NWC so I can't compare. I do know that Greg Rossel says that WRC is "quite brittle and low in streagth, often breaking across the grain". He mentins it's good for strip planking and cold molded veneers but not the best for other types of planking.

Harry Bryan mentions substituting pine for the cedar. I can find clear pine here but not sure if it's the correct species. I know yellow is not a good choice. Is there white pine on the west coast?

I will probably need to call Harry and get his opinion on this issue. I't's the fiorst time I will be using real wood for planks instead of ply and I want to make sure I use something that I will be happy with.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by dmede:
...Harry Bryan mentions substituting pine for the cedar. I can find clear pine here but not sure if it's the correct species. I know yellow is not a good choice. Is there white pine on the west coast?

I don't know nothing. Which makes what I am about to say suspect. Hopefully Bob Smalser won't send me to my room without any dinner.

Looking strictly at density, the pine family runs from a low of 0.35 (Eastern white) up to 0.59 for longleaf. The bulk of the pines are clustered in the mid 0.40's. Taking a look at Port Orford (0.43), Alaska yellow (0.44) cedar and Douglas-fir (0.45-0.50) I'm thinking use the local cedars instead of the local pines. I think most everyone will agree that either Port Orford or Alaska yellow cedar make fine planking stock.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by dmede:
...Harry Bryan mentions substituting pine for the cedar. I can find clear pine here but not sure if it's the correct species. I know yellow is not a good choice. Is there white pine on the west coast?

I don't know nothing. Which makes what I am about to say suspect. Hopefully Bob Smalser won't send me to my room without any dinner.

Looking strictly at density, the pine family runs from a low of 0.35 (Eastern white) up to 0.59 for longleaf. The bulk of the pines are clustered in the mid 0.40's. Taking a look at Port Orford (0.43), Alaska yellow (0.44) cedar and Douglas-fir (0.45-0.50) I'm thinking use the local cedars instead of the local pines. I think most everyone will agree that either Port Orford or Alaska yellow cedar make fine planking stock.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by dmede:
...Harry Bryan mentions substituting pine for the cedar. I can find clear pine here but not sure if it's the correct species. I know yellow is not a good choice. Is there white pine on the west coast?

I don't know nothing. Which makes what I am about to say suspect. Hopefully Bob Smalser won't send me to my room without any dinner.

Looking strictly at density, the pine family runs from a low of 0.35 (Eastern white) up to 0.59 for longleaf. The bulk of the pines are clustered in the mid 0.40's. Taking a look at Port Orford (0.43), Alaska yellow (0.44) cedar and Douglas-fir (0.45-0.50) I'm thinking use the local cedars instead of the local pines. I think most everyone will agree that either Port Orford or Alaska yellow cedar make fine planking stock.

[dmede]

ive been looking around for info on Orford and Yellow Cedar and found these guys: http://www.bearcreeklumber.com/species/portorcedar.html

good info for comparison between the three species. Sounds like Orford or Yellow would make a beter substitue for NWC than WRC would. Good news is both are available locally.

steven, thanks for the info. i noticed your thistle posts a while back. ive been studying the pics to help me visualize what i will be doing on the fiddlehead. i hope you don't mind if i pick your brain on building issues in the future if they come up?

[dmede]

ive been looking around for info on Orford and Yellow Cedar and found these guys: http://www.bearcreeklumber.com/species/portorcedar.html

good info for comparison between the three species. Sounds like Orford or Yellow would make a beter substitue for NWC than WRC would. Good news is both are available locally.

steven, thanks for the info. i noticed your thistle posts a while back. ive been studying the pics to help me visualize what i will be doing on the fiddlehead. i hope you don't mind if i pick your brain on building issues in the future if they come up?

[dmede]

ive been looking around for info on Orford and Yellow Cedar and found these guys: http://www.bearcreeklumber.com/species/portorcedar.html

good info for comparison between the three species. Sounds like Orford or Yellow would make a beter substitue for NWC than WRC would. Good news is both are available locally.

steven, thanks for the info. i noticed your thistle posts a while back. ive been studying the pics to help me visualize what i will be doing on the fiddlehead. i hope you don't mind if i pick your brain on building issues in the future if they come up?

[imported_Steven Bauer]

No problem, Dave. I hope I can be of some help. Don Olney has built a Fiddlehead, too. So maybe he can chime in also. He built his in an apartment on E 88th Street in NYC. We're still waiting to hear the full story. :D

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

No problem, Dave. I hope I can be of some help. Don Olney has built a Fiddlehead, too. So maybe he can chime in also. He built his in an apartment on E 88th Street in NYC. We're still waiting to hear the full story. :D

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

No problem, Dave. I hope I can be of some help. Don Olney has built a Fiddlehead, too. So maybe he can chime in also. He built his in an apartment on E 88th Street in NYC. We're still waiting to hear the full story. :D

Steven

[Bob Smalser]

My Uncle Paul built wooden carriages as a child in his father's shop and one work boat a year for most of his adult life....I love his memory dearly, but he thought plywood...and I'm talking 1955 marine-grade DF from old-growth you'd drool over today...he thought plywood was the devil's work and would roll over in his grave if he saw me using it for anything but forms and patterns.

I do know that Greg Rossel says that WRC is "quite brittle and low in strength, often breaking across the grain". So did John Gardner before him....and Ron above. Maybe they only get kiln-dried WRC on the East Coast and it is brittle from overcooking. Boards break across the grain because of reaction wood...or more likely....from improper sawing at the mill, giving you lots of grain runout. Always test your boards for grain runout before picking which plank comes out of which board. More runout=less bend/twist. Logs with severe taper like WRC butt logs need to be cut "bark-to-bark" as opposed to making a squared cant. If your flatsawn board has lots of "figure" in it...it's a butt log board from the buttress and has too much grain runout to bend.

I haven't used NWC...only air-dried AWC as a kid in Paul's shop, and now air-dried WRC just about every single day for something. I can't compare them side by side, but WRC works just dandy....no wood on the continent matches it for stability, which makes building with it very, very forgiving.

All cedars are soft...the heavier ones like AYC, POC and ERC are harder and stronger....but so is DF, which you are approaching in weight, and is also an excellent planking wood at less than half the cost of any cedar. AYC and POC are closer in weight to DF than they are to WRC or NWC.

Splitting? All thin, q or rift-sawn planking of any species is liable to split if you don't drill for your screws properly...just like all flatsawn stock is much less likely. That should be no surprise:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075040/40075419.jpg

I powerdrive wedge-headed deck screws regularly in flatsawn WRC without pilot holes.

WRC is so stable you can get away with using cheaper flatsawn stock in applications where if you tried that with DF, you'd buckle a board.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075040/40075424.jpg

I'm not gonna argue with them, only refer y'all to the USDA tests, which tell a very different story. You might ask Port Townsend's wooden boat school faculty what they think of it, because they sure use a lot of it at Edensaw prices.

Bottom line is that if you change to POC or AYC, you will wind up with a significantly heavier boat. Nothing wrong with either that or those cedars for planking, but if the boat was designed and engineered for NWC, adding 38 per cent to the weight of your planking might also require a plus-up of your framing scantlings.

[ 02-17-2004, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

My Uncle Paul built wooden carriages as a child in his father's shop and one work boat a year for most of his adult life....I love his memory dearly, but he thought plywood...and I'm talking 1955 marine-grade DF from old-growth you'd drool over today...he thought plywood was the devil's work and would roll over in his grave if he saw me using it for anything but forms and patterns.

I do know that Greg Rossel says that WRC is "quite brittle and low in strength, often breaking across the grain". So did John Gardner before him....and Ron above. Maybe they only get kiln-dried WRC on the East Coast and it is brittle from overcooking. Boards break across the grain because of reaction wood...or more likely....from improper sawing at the mill, giving you lots of grain runout. Always test your boards for grain runout before picking which plank comes out of which board. More runout=less bend/twist. Logs with severe taper like WRC butt logs need to be cut "bark-to-bark" as opposed to making a squared cant. If your flatsawn board has lots of "figure" in it...it's a butt log board from the buttress and has too much grain runout to bend.

I haven't used NWC...only air-dried AWC as a kid in Paul's shop, and now air-dried WRC just about every single day for something. I can't compare them side by side, but WRC works just dandy....no wood on the continent matches it for stability, which makes building with it very, very forgiving.

All cedars are soft...the heavier ones like AYC, POC and ERC are harder and stronger....but so is DF, which you are approaching in weight, and is also an excellent planking wood at less than half the cost of any cedar. AYC and POC are closer in weight to DF than they are to WRC or NWC.

Splitting? All thin, q or rift-sawn planking of any species is liable to split if you don't drill for your screws properly...just like all flatsawn stock is much less likely. That should be no surprise:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075040/40075419.jpg

I powerdrive wedge-headed deck screws regularly in flatsawn WRC without pilot holes.

WRC is so stable you can get away with using cheaper flatsawn stock in applications where if you tried that with DF, you'd buckle a board.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075040/40075424.jpg

I'm not gonna argue with them, only refer y'all to the USDA tests, which tell a very different story. You might ask Port Townsend's wooden boat school faculty what they think of it, because they sure use a lot of it at Edensaw prices.

Bottom line is that if you change to POC or AYC, you will wind up with a significantly heavier boat. Nothing wrong with either that or those cedars for planking, but if the boat was designed and engineered for NWC, adding 38 per cent to the weight of your planking might also require a plus-up of your framing scantlings.

[ 02-17-2004, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

My Uncle Paul built wooden carriages as a child in his father's shop and one work boat a year for most of his adult life....I love his memory dearly, but he thought plywood...and I'm talking 1955 marine-grade DF from old-growth you'd drool over today...he thought plywood was the devil's work and would roll over in his grave if he saw me using it for anything but forms and patterns.

I do know that Greg Rossel says that WRC is "quite brittle and low in strength, often breaking across the grain". So did John Gardner before him....and Ron above. Maybe they only get kiln-dried WRC on the East Coast and it is brittle from overcooking. Boards break across the grain because of reaction wood...or more likely....from improper sawing at the mill, giving you lots of grain runout. Always test your boards for grain runout before picking which plank comes out of which board. More runout=less bend/twist. Logs with severe taper like WRC butt logs need to be cut "bark-to-bark" as opposed to making a squared cant. If your flatsawn board has lots of "figure" in it...it's a butt log board from the buttress and has too much grain runout to bend.

I haven't used NWC...only air-dried AWC as a kid in Paul's shop, and now air-dried WRC just about every single day for something. I can't compare them side by side, but WRC works just dandy....no wood on the continent matches it for stability, which makes building with it very, very forgiving.

All cedars are soft...the heavier ones like AYC, POC and ERC are harder and stronger....but so is DF, which you are approaching in weight, and is also an excellent planking wood at less than half the cost of any cedar. AYC and POC are closer in weight to DF than they are to WRC or NWC.

Splitting? All thin, q or rift-sawn planking of any species is liable to split if you don't drill for your screws properly...just like all flatsawn stock is much less likely. That should be no surprise:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075040/40075419.jpg

I powerdrive wedge-headed deck screws regularly in flatsawn WRC without pilot holes.

WRC is so stable you can get away with using cheaper flatsawn stock in applications where if you tried that with DF, you'd buckle a board.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075040/40075424.jpg

I'm not gonna argue with them, only refer y'all to the USDA tests, which tell a very different story. You might ask Port Townsend's wooden boat school faculty what they think of it, because they sure use a lot of it at Edensaw prices.

Bottom line is that if you change to POC or AYC, you will wind up with a significantly heavier boat. Nothing wrong with either that or those cedars for planking, but if the boat was designed and engineered for NWC, adding 38 per cent to the weight of your planking might also require a plus-up of your framing scantlings.

[ 02-17-2004, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[L.W. Baxter]

A year ago I lofted the lines for the modified St. Pierre from The Dory Book , and I've been mulling it over for my next project. Here is what Gardner says about plank stock for the St. Pierre:

My first choice for planking lumber would be sap-free Northern white pine. Rift-sawn Douglas fir would be good, but heavier. Maine cedar with plenty of small, sound knots for toughness would be good, bet Western and Virginia cedar are too soft. Cedar can be disadvantageous because it soaks water.

Any comments about what he says regarding cedar for this design? It seems odd, as the original boats were typically planked in spruce, which is pretty soft itself. And as far as "soaking water", I understand that cedar gets saturated quickly, but what would be the disadvantage?

--Lee

[L.W. Baxter]

A year ago I lofted the lines for the modified St. Pierre from The Dory Book , and I've been mulling it over for my next project. Here is what Gardner says about plank stock for the St. Pierre:

My first choice for planking lumber would be sap-free Northern white pine. Rift-sawn Douglas fir would be good, but heavier. Maine cedar with plenty of small, sound knots for toughness would be good, bet Western and Virginia cedar are too soft. Cedar can be disadvantageous because it soaks water.

Any comments about what he says regarding cedar for this design? It seems odd, as the original boats were typically planked in spruce, which is pretty soft itself. And as far as "soaking water", I understand that cedar gets saturated quickly, but what would be the disadvantage?

--Lee

[L.W. Baxter]

A year ago I lofted the lines for the modified St. Pierre from The Dory Book , and I've been mulling it over for my next project. Here is what Gardner says about plank stock for the St. Pierre:

My first choice for planking lumber would be sap-free Northern white pine. Rift-sawn Douglas fir would be good, but heavier. Maine cedar with plenty of small, sound knots for toughness would be good, bet Western and Virginia cedar are too soft. Cedar can be disadvantageous because it soaks water.

Any comments about what he says regarding cedar for this design? It seems odd, as the original boats were typically planked in spruce, which is pretty soft itself. And as far as "soaking water", I understand that cedar gets saturated quickly, but what would be the disadvantage?

--Lee

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by L.W. Baxter:
And as far as "soaking water", I understand that cedar gets saturated quickly, but what would be the disadvantage?

--LeeOne word...weight. More water in the wood means a heavier boat.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by L.W. Baxter:
And as far as "soaking water", I understand that cedar gets saturated quickly, but what would be the disadvantage?

--LeeOne word...weight. More water in the wood means a heavier boat.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by L.W. Baxter:
And as far as "soaking water", I understand that cedar gets saturated quickly, but what would be the disadvantage?

--LeeOne word...weight. More water in the wood means a heavier boat.

[L.W. Baxter]

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by L.W. Baxter:
And as far as "soaking water", I understand that cedar gets saturated quickly, but what would be the disadvantage?

--LeeOne word...weight. More water in the wood means a heavier boat.</font>[/QUOTE]Understood, Bruce.

But why would this be a concern particular to the St. Pierre dory, a displacement-speed hull with ample reserve bouyancy?

And if the tendency to get wet is a liability for boat planking, maybe we should all take a second look at ferro-cement. tongue.gif

--Lee

[L.W. Baxter]

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by L.W. Baxter:
And as far as "soaking water", I understand that cedar gets saturated quickly, but what would be the disadvantage?

--LeeOne word...weight. More water in the wood means a heavier boat.</font>[/QUOTE]Understood, Bruce.

But why would this be a concern particular to the St. Pierre dory, a displacement-speed hull with ample reserve bouyancy?

And if the tendency to get wet is a liability for boat planking, maybe we should all take a second look at ferro-cement. tongue.gif

--Lee

[L.W. Baxter]

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by L.W. Baxter:
And as far as "soaking water", I understand that cedar gets saturated quickly, but what would be the disadvantage?

--LeeOne word...weight. More water in the wood means a heavier boat.</font>[/QUOTE]Understood, Bruce.

But why would this be a concern particular to the St. Pierre dory, a displacement-speed hull with ample reserve bouyancy?

And if the tendency to get wet is a liability for boat planking, maybe we should all take a second look at ferro-cement. tongue.gif

--Lee

[Ron Williamson]

Bob's right about me seeing very little real green WRC in lumber form.Though I did some logwork in southern BC many years ago,twernt the same thing.
We can get construction grade which seems to be straight #2 common crap,or John's clear, Q-sawed, KD, sandblasted sign material.
BUT when John tried to sandblast NWC,it didn't take.It turned into a wierd spongy mess,seeming almost to absorb the sand.

Gardiner comparing the toughness of knotty N.White cedar to clear Atlantic and clear W.Red isn't fair.
R

[Ron Williamson]

Bob's right about me seeing very little real green WRC in lumber form.Though I did some logwork in southern BC many years ago,twernt the same thing.
We can get construction grade which seems to be straight #2 common crap,or John's clear, Q-sawed, KD, sandblasted sign material.
BUT when John tried to sandblast NWC,it didn't take.It turned into a wierd spongy mess,seeming almost to absorb the sand.

Gardiner comparing the toughness of knotty N.White cedar to clear Atlantic and clear W.Red isn't fair.
R

[Ron Williamson]

Bob's right about me seeing very little real green WRC in lumber form.Though I did some logwork in southern BC many years ago,twernt the same thing.
We can get construction grade which seems to be straight #2 common crap,or John's clear, Q-sawed, KD, sandblasted sign material.
BUT when John tried to sandblast NWC,it didn't take.It turned into a wierd spongy mess,seeming almost to absorb the sand.

Gardiner comparing the toughness of knotty N.White cedar to clear Atlantic and clear W.Red isn't fair.
R

[Bob Smalser]

But why would this be a concern particular to the St. Pierre dory, a displacement-speed hull with ample reserve bouyancy?
I'm not sure if it is a valid concern....but like my logic above, substituting planking heavier than the framing was engineered for might call for a change in scantling size.

If the dory was designed for spruce, perhaps he thought the cedar taking moisture would make for a heavier load on the framing than spruce, even though cedar is slightly lighter to begin with.

I'm just guessing, of course....regardless....all cedar logs sink, so the feature is neutral among the different species of it.

How much additional weight from moisture does cedar pick up in a hull in normal use? And as opposed to other woods? I have no idea, but I'm sure there's a test out there to be found.

[Bob Smalser]

But why would this be a concern particular to the St. Pierre dory, a displacement-speed hull with ample reserve bouyancy?
I'm not sure if it is a valid concern....but like my logic above, substituting planking heavier than the framing was engineered for might call for a change in scantling size.

If the dory was designed for spruce, perhaps he thought the cedar taking moisture would make for a heavier load on the framing than spruce, even though cedar is slightly lighter to begin with.

I'm just guessing, of course....regardless....all cedar logs sink, so the feature is neutral among the different species of it.

How much additional weight from moisture does cedar pick up in a hull in normal use? And as opposed to other woods? I have no idea, but I'm sure there's a test out there to be found.

[Bob Smalser]

But why would this be a concern particular to the St. Pierre dory, a displacement-speed hull with ample reserve bouyancy?
I'm not sure if it is a valid concern....but like my logic above, substituting planking heavier than the framing was engineered for might call for a change in scantling size.

If the dory was designed for spruce, perhaps he thought the cedar taking moisture would make for a heavier load on the framing than spruce, even though cedar is slightly lighter to begin with.

I'm just guessing, of course....regardless....all cedar logs sink, so the feature is neutral among the different species of it.

How much additional weight from moisture does cedar pick up in a hull in normal use? And as opposed to other woods? I have no idea, but I'm sure there's a test out there to be found.

[dmede]

Bob, with regard to the Fiddlehead canoe, Bryan specifically mentions that in substituting wood, picking a heavier wood is preferable to a weaker one. The strength of the wood is the primary concern in this design since it is built so light to begin with. Weight is his first choice for a compromise between the characteristics of strength, weight and durability.

Your post above brings up another good question regarding the wood for this boat, do I need to be looking for q-sawn or is plain sawn fine?

Also, what are the opinion of doug fir for planking in small boats? I certainly have access to lots of nice clear doug fir around here.

[dmede]

Bob, with regard to the Fiddlehead canoe, Bryan specifically mentions that in substituting wood, picking a heavier wood is preferable to a weaker one. The strength of the wood is the primary concern in this design since it is built so light to begin with. Weight is his first choice for a compromise between the characteristics of strength, weight and durability.

Your post above brings up another good question regarding the wood for this boat, do I need to be looking for q-sawn or is plain sawn fine?

Also, what are the opinion of doug fir for planking in small boats? I certainly have access to lots of nice clear doug fir around here.

[dmede]

Bob, with regard to the Fiddlehead canoe, Bryan specifically mentions that in substituting wood, picking a heavier wood is preferable to a weaker one. The strength of the wood is the primary concern in this design since it is built so light to begin with. Weight is his first choice for a compromise between the characteristics of strength, weight and durability.

Your post above brings up another good question regarding the wood for this boat, do I need to be looking for q-sawn or is plain sawn fine?

Also, what are the opinion of doug fir for planking in small boats? I certainly have access to lots of nice clear doug fir around here.

[Bruce Taylor]

I take it this is a lapstrake canoe, w/ planks in the neighbourhood of 1/4" thick? On boats of this kind, the garboard and broadstrake take a lot of twist (nearly 90 degrees, in some designs). Slab-sawn thuja occidentalis (n. white) takes this twist beautifully. Quartered w. red cedar, in my experience (and I've tried it w/ 1/4" stock...kiln-dried, admittedly) splits like the dickens. When you're steaming & twisting these thin planks, a little confusion in the grain seems to be a good thing. So, I'd be inclined to use flat-sawn stock for the lower strakes, at least.

Red cedar is certainly quite suitable for lapstrake canoes. Many builders use it by preference, even on the east coast.

[Bruce Taylor]

I take it this is a lapstrake canoe, w/ planks in the neighbourhood of 1/4" thick? On boats of this kind, the garboard and broadstrake take a lot of twist (nearly 90 degrees, in some designs). Slab-sawn thuja occidentalis (n. white) takes this twist beautifully. Quartered w. red cedar, in my experience (and I've tried it w/ 1/4" stock...kiln-dried, admittedly) splits like the dickens. When you're steaming & twisting these thin planks, a little confusion in the grain seems to be a good thing. So, I'd be inclined to use flat-sawn stock for the lower strakes, at least.

Red cedar is certainly quite suitable for lapstrake canoes. Many builders use it by preference, even on the east coast.

[Bruce Taylor]

I take it this is a lapstrake canoe, w/ planks in the neighbourhood of 1/4" thick? On boats of this kind, the garboard and broadstrake take a lot of twist (nearly 90 degrees, in some designs). Slab-sawn thuja occidentalis (n. white) takes this twist beautifully. Quartered w. red cedar, in my experience (and I've tried it w/ 1/4" stock...kiln-dried, admittedly) splits like the dickens. When you're steaming & twisting these thin planks, a little confusion in the grain seems to be a good thing. So, I'd be inclined to use flat-sawn stock for the lower strakes, at least.

Red cedar is certainly quite suitable for lapstrake canoes. Many builders use it by preference, even on the east coast.

[Bob Smalser]

This a canoe...light weight is important...I would not substitute heavier wood than WRC, there is no need and it'll likely take some out of the fun out of the boat.

Based on your locale and cost, I would use WRC for sure....you can find local sawyers with airdried stock, as you have creek bottoms full of this species all around you in NW California.

If you are concerned about splitting, then use flatsawn stock for planks with severe twist. But I don't bother...I just insure that the q-sawn board is supported across its full face with a cleats on the ends...and any twisting pressure I put on it with clamps, board wrench or "tweaker" is against the cleat or cleats supporting the board ends, not directly on the board where the pressure is not evenly distributed. If the plank has to be cut to make room for the cleats, then cut the plank long and trim after fastening.

I can split any q-sawn wood when twisting it...and have split tough DF...by applying pressure at one or two points on surface or edge...like using a door clamp without cleats to pull in a bend... instead of across its full surface.

Doug Fir has a lot of seasonal movement and is as heavy as most cherry and many maple hardwoods. When used for planking, q-sawn stock becomes real important.

[Bob Smalser]

This a canoe...light weight is important...I would not substitute heavier wood than WRC, there is no need and it'll likely take some out of the fun out of the boat.

Based on your locale and cost, I would use WRC for sure....you can find local sawyers with airdried stock, as you have creek bottoms full of this species all around you in NW California.

If you are concerned about splitting, then use flatsawn stock for planks with severe twist. But I don't bother...I just insure that the q-sawn board is supported across its full face with a cleats on the ends...and any twisting pressure I put on it with clamps, board wrench or "tweaker" is against the cleat or cleats supporting the board ends, not directly on the board where the pressure is not evenly distributed. If the plank has to be cut to make room for the cleats, then cut the plank long and trim after fastening.

I can split any q-sawn wood when twisting it...and have split tough DF...by applying pressure at one or two points on surface or edge...like using a door clamp without cleats to pull in a bend... instead of across its full surface.

Doug Fir has a lot of seasonal movement and is as heavy as most cherry and many maple hardwoods. When used for planking, q-sawn stock becomes real important.

[Bob Smalser]

This a canoe...light weight is important...I would not substitute heavier wood than WRC, there is no need and it'll likely take some out of the fun out of the boat.

Based on your locale and cost, I would use WRC for sure....you can find local sawyers with airdried stock, as you have creek bottoms full of this species all around you in NW California.

If you are concerned about splitting, then use flatsawn stock for planks with severe twist. But I don't bother...I just insure that the q-sawn board is supported across its full face with a cleats on the ends...and any twisting pressure I put on it with clamps, board wrench or "tweaker" is against the cleat or cleats supporting the board ends, not directly on the board where the pressure is not evenly distributed. If the plank has to be cut to make room for the cleats, then cut the plank long and trim after fastening.

I can split any q-sawn wood when twisting it...and have split tough DF...by applying pressure at one or two points on surface or edge...like using a door clamp without cleats to pull in a bend... instead of across its full surface.

Doug Fir has a lot of seasonal movement and is as heavy as most cherry and many maple hardwoods. When used for planking, q-sawn stock becomes real important.

[Dave Triano]

After searching for -months- for a local (or even within 200 miles) lumber yard that stocks Port Orford Cedar, I was turned on to a good source for tight knot PO cedar that comes as decking, nominal 2x6, in 8', 12', 16 or 20' lengths. I just ventured from South Lake Tahoe where I live, to Mill Valley (north of San Francisco about 15 miles), where the Mill Valley Lumber Company ordered me up a unit of 16' stock. It's nice wood, and clear stock could be milled from it if reasonably careful. Their number is 415-388-3532. Priced at around 1.80/lf. If you can deal with the lumber yard dimensions and pricing, it's great wood, and you don't have to drive to Oregon or Washington to get it......

Best - Dave Triano

[Dave Triano]

After searching for -months- for a local (or even within 200 miles) lumber yard that stocks Port Orford Cedar, I was turned on to a good source for tight knot PO cedar that comes as decking, nominal 2x6, in 8', 12', 16 or 20' lengths. I just ventured from South Lake Tahoe where I live, to Mill Valley (north of San Francisco about 15 miles), where the Mill Valley Lumber Company ordered me up a unit of 16' stock. It's nice wood, and clear stock could be milled from it if reasonably careful. Their number is 415-388-3532. Priced at around 1.80/lf. If you can deal with the lumber yard dimensions and pricing, it's great wood, and you don't have to drive to Oregon or Washington to get it......

Best - Dave Triano

[Dave Triano]

After searching for -months- for a local (or even within 200 miles) lumber yard that stocks Port Orford Cedar, I was turned on to a good source for tight knot PO cedar that comes as decking, nominal 2x6, in 8', 12', 16 or 20' lengths. I just ventured from South Lake Tahoe where I live, to Mill Valley (north of San Francisco about 15 miles), where the Mill Valley Lumber Company ordered me up a unit of 16' stock. It's nice wood, and clear stock could be milled from it if reasonably careful. Their number is 415-388-3532. Priced at around 1.80/lf. If you can deal with the lumber yard dimensions and pricing, it's great wood, and you don't have to drive to Oregon or Washington to get it......

Best - Dave Triano

[imported_Steven Bauer]

You could plank the whole boat with two of those 16 footers. smile.gif

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

You could plank the whole boat with two of those 16 footers. smile.gif

Steven

[imported_Steven Bauer]

You could plank the whole boat with two of those 16 footers. smile.gif

Steven

[Dutch.Rub]

...check my Juniper post down in the bilge....

[Dutch.Rub]

...check my Juniper post down in the bilge....

[Dutch.Rub]

...check my Juniper post down in the bilge....

[dmede]

Just talked to Harry and he thinks WRC should be just fine. His plank thickness for this boat is 5/16", a little thicker than 1/4", and he thinks that gives it the extra strength needed to handle the twist. Since it's cheap and local, if it splits, I can easily get more smile.gif

Thanks for all the input
Dave

[dmede]

Just talked to Harry and he thinks WRC should be just fine. His plank thickness for this boat is 5/16", a little thicker than 1/4", and he thinks that gives it the extra strength needed to handle the twist. Since it's cheap and local, if it splits, I can easily get more smile.gif

Thanks for all the input
Dave

[dmede]

Just talked to Harry and he thinks WRC should be just fine. His plank thickness for this boat is 5/16", a little thicker than 1/4", and he thinks that gives it the extra strength needed to handle the twist. Since it's cheap and local, if it splits, I can easily get more smile.gif

Thanks for all the input
Dave

[Bob Smalser]

For the record, here are some tentative conclusions I've drawn from the Forestry and Sawyer Boards on why WRC enjoys a poor reputation back east.

1) WRC is slightly stronger and slightly stiffer than NWC and AWC, but not enough in steamed planking to make a large difference, considering the popularity of stiffer-still AYC and POC, which are more in league with Doug Fir for strength and stiffness than other cedars.

2) WRC logs vary dramatically in their moisture content while in the log after harvest. Some logs are close to 30pct, which is relatively dry, and some logs are close to 60pct, which is relatively wet. As a consequence, it is difficult to accurately kiln wood coming from several different trees....some will inevitably be overcooked and "brittle", often in the same bundle.

3) Airdried WRC will not have kilning faults, and will be just as reliable in planking use as NWC and AWC.

Excerpts from other boards:

"... the perception that Western Red Cedar is an inferior wood for steam bending than Northern White Cedar. The claims by many wood boatbuilding book authors are that WRC is more brittle, splits easily, and generally is a softer, inferior wood for planking.

When I compare the USDA Test Data, however, I get a different story...that WRC is similar or slightly better:

Weight (SG): NWC .31, WRC .32
Strength: NWC 6500 and 4.8, WRC 7500 and 5.8
Elasticity: NWC .80, WRC 1.11
Impact Bending: NWC 3960, WRC 4560
Hardness: NWC 320, WRC 350

I've often thought that the negative comments come from eastern builders with prejudices and access to only commercial, kilned WRC stock that may have been overcooked....or because WRC comes in larger logs, they are comparing Q-Sawn WRC stock to Flat-Sawn NWC stock, where there would be more tendency to split.

My recent personal experience is limited to airdried WRC, so I don't have both materials side by side to compare."

"When bending, you want a wood that is not too stiff and not too strong. The higher MOE for WRC is a negative when compared to northern white."


"Acknowledged...but the MOE difference between NWC at .80 and WRC at 1.11 seems small:
I realize I'm dealing with perceptions, but the same folks who dislike WRC for being too "brittle" also rave about Alaska Yellow and Port Orford as planking stock...which are cedars more akin in strength and stiffness to Doug Fir than to Western Red...MOE's of 1.42 and 1.70 respectively...and both are steambent routinely for planking."

" The difference between .8 and 1.1 for E is 30% and that is important for thick stock. It means you need an extra pair for hands for sharp bends.
The numbers given in texts are for cold wood. We bend hot wood because the numbers are lower. I don't know of a source for numbers for hot woods."

"Here are the values of MOE & MOR at 12% MC.
WRC 1.11 & 7500
No White 0.80 and 6500

Impact bending is
WRC 17
No White 12

WML is
WRC 5.8
No White 4.8

Also, the heartwood of WRC is not too wet initially, so it might be over-dried (= brittle)if not dried properly.

Clarification: Some WRC cedar heartwood is quite dry in the tree and some is extremely wet. This variations is what causes over-drying sometimes. Of course, the ideal MC is 25-30% MC for severe bends and not under 116% MC for shallow bends. "

"That makes sense. I harvest and mill a good bit of WRC and also mill recovered old-growth from beaver ponds. Some logs are as dry as Doug Fir....perhaps 30pct M/C...and some are so soggy they squirt water 6 feet when I grab them with the bucket thumb....and not just the ones recovered from ponds.

The book says WRC is 58pct M/C in the log, but from anecdotal experience I agree there is varience. "



[ 02-27-2004, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

For the record, here are some tentative conclusions I've drawn from the Forestry and Sawyer Boards on why WRC enjoys a poor reputation back east.

1) WRC is slightly stronger and slightly stiffer than NWC and AWC, but not enough in steamed planking to make a large difference, considering the popularity of stiffer-still AYC and POC, which are more in league with Doug Fir for strength and stiffness than other cedars.

2) WRC logs vary dramatically in their moisture content while in the log after harvest. Some logs are close to 30pct, which is relatively dry, and some logs are close to 60pct, which is relatively wet. As a consequence, it is difficult to accurately kiln wood coming from several different trees....some will inevitably be overcooked and "brittle", often in the same bundle.

3) Airdried WRC will not have kilning faults, and will be just as reliable in planking use as NWC and AWC.

Excerpts from other boards:

"... the perception that Western Red Cedar is an inferior wood for steam bending than Northern White Cedar. The claims by many wood boatbuilding book authors are that WRC is more brittle, splits easily, and generally is a softer, inferior wood for planking.

When I compare the USDA Test Data, however, I get a different story...that WRC is similar or slightly better:

Weight (SG): NWC .31, WRC .32
Strength: NWC 6500 and 4.8, WRC 7500 and 5.8
Elasticity: NWC .80, WRC 1.11
Impact Bending: NWC 3960, WRC 4560
Hardness: NWC 320, WRC 350

I've often thought that the negative comments come from eastern builders with prejudices and access to only commercial, kilned WRC stock that may have been overcooked....or because WRC comes in larger logs, they are comparing Q-Sawn WRC stock to Flat-Sawn NWC stock, where there would be more tendency to split.

My recent personal experience is limited to airdried WRC, so I don't have both materials side by side to compare."

"When bending, you want a wood that is not too stiff and not too strong. The higher MOE for WRC is a negative when compared to northern white."


"Acknowledged...but the MOE difference between NWC at .80 and WRC at 1.11 seems small:
I realize I'm dealing with perceptions, but the same folks who dislike WRC for being too "brittle" also rave about Alaska Yellow and Port Orford as planking stock...which are cedars more akin in strength and stiffness to Doug Fir than to Western Red...MOE's of 1.42 and 1.70 respectively...and both are steambent routinely for planking."

" The difference between .8 and 1.1 for E is 30% and that is important for thick stock. It means you need an extra pair for hands for sharp bends.
The numbers given in texts are for cold wood. We bend hot wood because the numbers are lower. I don't know of a source for numbers for hot woods."

"Here are the values of MOE & MOR at 12% MC.
WRC 1.11 & 7500
No White 0.80 and 6500

Impact bending is
WRC 17
No White 12

WML is
WRC 5.8
No White 4.8

Also, the heartwood of WRC is not too wet initially, so it might be over-dried (= brittle)if not dried properly.

Clarification: Some WRC cedar heartwood is quite dry in the tree and some is extremely wet. This variations is what causes over-drying sometimes. Of course, the ideal MC is 25-30% MC for severe bends and not under 116% MC for shallow bends. "

"That makes sense. I harvest and mill a good bit of WRC and also mill recovered old-growth from beaver ponds. Some logs are as dry as Doug Fir....perhaps 30pct M/C...and some are so soggy they squirt water 6 feet when I grab them with the bucket thumb....and not just the ones recovered from ponds.

The book says WRC is 58pct M/C in the log, but from anecdotal experience I agree there is varience. "



[ 02-27-2004, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bob Smalser]

For the record, here are some tentative conclusions I've drawn from the Forestry and Sawyer Boards on why WRC enjoys a poor reputation back east.

1) WRC is slightly stronger and slightly stiffer than NWC and AWC, but not enough in steamed planking to make a large difference, considering the popularity of stiffer-still AYC and POC, which are more in league with Doug Fir for strength and stiffness than other cedars.

2) WRC logs vary dramatically in their moisture content while in the log after harvest. Some logs are close to 30pct, which is relatively dry, and some logs are close to 60pct, which is relatively wet. As a consequence, it is difficult to accurately kiln wood coming from several different trees....some will inevitably be overcooked and "brittle", often in the same bundle.

3) Airdried WRC will not have kilning faults, and will be just as reliable in planking use as NWC and AWC.

Excerpts from other boards:

"... the perception that Western Red Cedar is an inferior wood for steam bending than Northern White Cedar. The claims by many wood boatbuilding book authors are that WRC is more brittle, splits easily, and generally is a softer, inferior wood for planking.

When I compare the USDA Test Data, however, I get a different story...that WRC is similar or slightly better:

Weight (SG): NWC .31, WRC .32
Strength: NWC 6500 and 4.8, WRC 7500 and 5.8
Elasticity: NWC .80, WRC 1.11
Impact Bending: NWC 3960, WRC 4560
Hardness: NWC 320, WRC 350

I've often thought that the negative comments come from eastern builders with prejudices and access to only commercial, kilned WRC stock that may have been overcooked....or because WRC comes in larger logs, they are comparing Q-Sawn WRC stock to Flat-Sawn NWC stock, where there would be more tendency to split.

My recent personal experience is limited to airdried WRC, so I don't have both materials side by side to compare."

"When bending, you want a wood that is not too stiff and not too strong. The higher MOE for WRC is a negative when compared to northern white."


"Acknowledged...but the MOE difference between NWC at .80 and WRC at 1.11 seems small:
I realize I'm dealing with perceptions, but the same folks who dislike WRC for being too "brittle" also rave about Alaska Yellow and Port Orford as planking stock...which are cedars more akin in strength and stiffness to Doug Fir than to Western Red...MOE's of 1.42 and 1.70 respectively...and both are steambent routinely for planking."

" The difference between .8 and 1.1 for E is 30% and that is important for thick stock. It means you need an extra pair for hands for sharp bends.
The numbers given in texts are for cold wood. We bend hot wood because the numbers are lower. I don't know of a source for numbers for hot woods."

"Here are the values of MOE & MOR at 12% MC.
WRC 1.11 & 7500
No White 0.80 and 6500

Impact bending is
WRC 17
No White 12

WML is
WRC 5.8
No White 4.8

Also, the heartwood of WRC is not too wet initially, so it might be over-dried (= brittle)if not dried properly.

Clarification: Some WRC cedar heartwood is quite dry in the tree and some is extremely wet. This variations is what causes over-drying sometimes. Of course, the ideal MC is 25-30% MC for severe bends and not under 116% MC for shallow bends. "

"That makes sense. I harvest and mill a good bit of WRC and also mill recovered old-growth from beaver ponds. Some logs are as dry as Doug Fir....perhaps 30pct M/C...and some are so soggy they squirt water 6 feet when I grab them with the bucket thumb....and not just the ones recovered from ponds.

The book says WRC is 58pct M/C in the log, but from anecdotal experience I agree there is varience. "



[ 02-27-2004, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Bruce Taylor]

As a consequence, it is difficult to accurately kiln wood coming from several different trees....some will inevitably be overcooked and "brittle", often in the same bundleInteresting stuff, Bob. The WRC we get out here is generally kiln-dried, so the anecdotal evidence would be skewed unfavourably.

Come to think of it, the only air-dried WRC I use is in the form of guitar and mandolin tops. Cross grain strength certainly isn't a problem there. These are cut on the quarter & planed to ~.110"...and are still able to carry the hundreds of pounds of stress that a set of steel strings puts on them.

[Bruce Taylor]

As a consequence, it is difficult to accurately kiln wood coming from several different trees....some will inevitably be overcooked and "brittle", often in the same bundleInteresting stuff, Bob. The WRC we get out here is generally kiln-dried, so the anecdotal evidence would be skewed unfavourably.

Come to think of it, the only air-dried WRC I use is in the form of guitar and mandolin tops. Cross grain strength certainly isn't a problem there. These are cut on the quarter & planed to ~.110"...and are still able to carry the hundreds of pounds of stress that a set of steel strings puts on them.

[Bruce Taylor]

As a consequence, it is difficult to accurately kiln wood coming from several different trees....some will inevitably be overcooked and "brittle", often in the same bundleInteresting stuff, Bob. The WRC we get out here is generally kiln-dried, so the anecdotal evidence would be skewed unfavourably.

Come to think of it, the only air-dried WRC I use is in the form of guitar and mandolin tops. Cross grain strength certainly isn't a problem there. These are cut on the quarter & planed to ~.110"...and are still able to carry the hundreds of pounds of stress that a set of steel strings puts on them.