Life Span of Fibreglass

[Kristian]

What is the lifespan of fibreglass? Taking into account of proper gel coats, UV protectors, proper matainance, etc.
I have heard that it takes 25 years for it to reach it's maximum "cure" strength, 25 to deteriorate back to original strength and anytime after that it's losing strength.
Is this correct?
Has it been around long enough to be able to tell?

[Kristian]

What is the lifespan of fibreglass? Taking into account of proper gel coats, UV protectors, proper matainance, etc.
I have heard that it takes 25 years for it to reach it's maximum "cure" strength, 25 to deteriorate back to original strength and anytime after that it's losing strength.
Is this correct?
Has it been around long enough to be able to tell?

[Kristian]

What is the lifespan of fibreglass? Taking into account of proper gel coats, UV protectors, proper matainance, etc.
I have heard that it takes 25 years for it to reach it's maximum "cure" strength, 25 to deteriorate back to original strength and anytime after that it's losing strength.
Is this correct?
Has it been around long enough to be able to tell?

[Art Read]

Hmmm... My Dad's old Boston Whaler must be about thirty years old by now. 21 feet. Lots of ugly matt and rove under the gunwhale. Might get a little polish and buffing now and again, but hardly on a "strict" maintainence schedule. Sure, she shows her age, but still handles a smokey southwester on Cape Cod Bay with aplomb... I don't think he plans on throwing it away any time soon.

[Art Read]

Hmmm... My Dad's old Boston Whaler must be about thirty years old by now. 21 feet. Lots of ugly matt and rove under the gunwhale. Might get a little polish and buffing now and again, but hardly on a "strict" maintainence schedule. Sure, she shows her age, but still handles a smokey southwester on Cape Cod Bay with aplomb... I don't think he plans on throwing it away any time soon.

[Art Read]

Hmmm... My Dad's old Boston Whaler must be about thirty years old by now. 21 feet. Lots of ugly matt and rove under the gunwhale. Might get a little polish and buffing now and again, but hardly on a "strict" maintainence schedule. Sure, she shows her age, but still handles a smokey southwester on Cape Cod Bay with aplomb... I don't think he plans on throwing it away any time soon.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I think it's a tough question to answer. Resins, laminating fabrics and manufacturing techniques have changed and improved drastically since the first glass boats were built. It would be pretty foolish to lump today's version of well-built glass hulls in with boats built 30-40 years ago and assume that things haven't improved in that time or that they won't outlive their ancestors. It's certainly still possible to build a really lousy fiberglass hull, but it's also possible to build a damned good one. I've rebuilt or heavily refurbished several 20-25 year-old boats and they all work and look fine. There are, however, things that you really want to watch out for - the worst of which seems to be poorly sealed plywood, balsa or foam coring inside transoms, decks, cockpit floors, mast steps, etc. Once it gets wet, it rots leaving the whole area weak and involves major amounts of work (and money) to repair.

Making generalized lifespan statements about fiberglass boats is no more accurate than making them about wooden boats. Some boats are built to last, others aren't.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I think it's a tough question to answer. Resins, laminating fabrics and manufacturing techniques have changed and improved drastically since the first glass boats were built. It would be pretty foolish to lump today's version of well-built glass hulls in with boats built 30-40 years ago and assume that things haven't improved in that time or that they won't outlive their ancestors. It's certainly still possible to build a really lousy fiberglass hull, but it's also possible to build a damned good one. I've rebuilt or heavily refurbished several 20-25 year-old boats and they all work and look fine. There are, however, things that you really want to watch out for - the worst of which seems to be poorly sealed plywood, balsa or foam coring inside transoms, decks, cockpit floors, mast steps, etc. Once it gets wet, it rots leaving the whole area weak and involves major amounts of work (and money) to repair.

Making generalized lifespan statements about fiberglass boats is no more accurate than making them about wooden boats. Some boats are built to last, others aren't.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I think it's a tough question to answer. Resins, laminating fabrics and manufacturing techniques have changed and improved drastically since the first glass boats were built. It would be pretty foolish to lump today's version of well-built glass hulls in with boats built 30-40 years ago and assume that things haven't improved in that time or that they won't outlive their ancestors. It's certainly still possible to build a really lousy fiberglass hull, but it's also possible to build a damned good one. I've rebuilt or heavily refurbished several 20-25 year-old boats and they all work and look fine. There are, however, things that you really want to watch out for - the worst of which seems to be poorly sealed plywood, balsa or foam coring inside transoms, decks, cockpit floors, mast steps, etc. Once it gets wet, it rots leaving the whole area weak and involves major amounts of work (and money) to repair.

Making generalized lifespan statements about fiberglass boats is no more accurate than making them about wooden boats. Some boats are built to last, others aren't.

[blaydone]

In addition to a wooden touring rowboat, I have a f****** Albacore dinghy that is almost 40 years old. I have not discovered any blistering or other structural leakage on her. She is a little brittle and has a fair amount of crazing (which I am in the process of restoring), but she still sails fine. Definitely not a 5 year throw away.

[blaydone]

In addition to a wooden touring rowboat, I have a f****** Albacore dinghy that is almost 40 years old. I have not discovered any blistering or other structural leakage on her. She is a little brittle and has a fair amount of crazing (which I am in the process of restoring), but she still sails fine. Definitely not a 5 year throw away.

[blaydone]

In addition to a wooden touring rowboat, I have a f****** Albacore dinghy that is almost 40 years old. I have not discovered any blistering or other structural leakage on her. She is a little brittle and has a fair amount of crazing (which I am in the process of restoring), but she still sails fine. Definitely not a 5 year throw away.

[Scott Rosen]

Krisian,

Check out these:

http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003213.html

http://yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm

As others have said, you can't generalize because there is no "standard" quality of FG construction. From what I can tell, the average quality FG boat has gotten much worse over the years. The old ones, especially the ones 30 and 40 years old, inlcuding the old Boston Whalers, were built way strong and thick. Good, heavy construction makes up for the weaknesses of the older resins. Builders don't do that today because it's expensive and heavy, two qualities that the average FG idiot doesn't want.

[Scott Rosen]

Krisian,

Check out these:

http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003213.html

http://yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm

As others have said, you can't generalize because there is no "standard" quality of FG construction. From what I can tell, the average quality FG boat has gotten much worse over the years. The old ones, especially the ones 30 and 40 years old, inlcuding the old Boston Whalers, were built way strong and thick. Good, heavy construction makes up for the weaknesses of the older resins. Builders don't do that today because it's expensive and heavy, two qualities that the average FG idiot doesn't want.

[Scott Rosen]

Krisian,

Check out these:

http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003213.html

http://yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm

As others have said, you can't generalize because there is no "standard" quality of FG construction. From what I can tell, the average quality FG boat has gotten much worse over the years. The old ones, especially the ones 30 and 40 years old, inlcuding the old Boston Whalers, were built way strong and thick. Good, heavy construction makes up for the weaknesses of the older resins. Builders don't do that today because it's expensive and heavy, two qualities that the average FG idiot doesn't want.

[Andreas Jordahl Rhude]

Ask this same question on the Fiberglassics site: www.fiberglassics.com (http://www.fiberglassics.com) and listen to what they all have to say.

Look at the book "Heart of Glass: Fiberglass Boats and the Men Who Made Them" by Daniel Spurr (International Marine/McGraw-Hill, 2000). Production fiberglass boats were being made as early as the late 1940s.

And please refrain from calling fiberglass boaters idiots. Plenty of idiot boaters out there with non-fiberglass boats!

[Andreas Jordahl Rhude]

Ask this same question on the Fiberglassics site: www.fiberglassics.com (http://www.fiberglassics.com) and listen to what they all have to say.

Look at the book "Heart of Glass: Fiberglass Boats and the Men Who Made Them" by Daniel Spurr (International Marine/McGraw-Hill, 2000). Production fiberglass boats were being made as early as the late 1940s.

And please refrain from calling fiberglass boaters idiots. Plenty of idiot boaters out there with non-fiberglass boats!

[Andreas Jordahl Rhude]

Ask this same question on the Fiberglassics site: www.fiberglassics.com (http://www.fiberglassics.com) and listen to what they all have to say.

Look at the book "Heart of Glass: Fiberglass Boats and the Men Who Made Them" by Daniel Spurr (International Marine/McGraw-Hill, 2000). Production fiberglass boats were being made as early as the late 1940s.

And please refrain from calling fiberglass boaters idiots. Plenty of idiot boaters out there with non-fiberglass boats!

[Todd Bradshaw]

Gee, at the moment I own seven fiberglass boats from as recent as last June to one from 1967. That must make me a first class idiot! But then again, what do I know, especially being from the midwest. I'll try to move to one of the coasts where I can be more authoratative.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Gee, at the moment I own seven fiberglass boats from as recent as last June to one from 1967. That must make me a first class idiot! But then again, what do I know, especially being from the midwest. I'll try to move to one of the coasts where I can be more authoratative.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Gee, at the moment I own seven fiberglass boats from as recent as last June to one from 1967. That must make me a first class idiot! But then again, what do I know, especially being from the midwest. I'll try to move to one of the coasts where I can be more authoratative.

[TomRobb]

Since this the WOODENboat forum, where f********s is a bit of a four-letter word, such sentiments are not unlikely. Much the same as in other circles where wood is looked down upon as arcane and laughable if not stubbornly wrongheaded and stupid. There's no accounting for tastes. F********s' advent nearly killed the skills pool of the wood boat-building trades. It wasn't a happy time. If you expected f********s to be well thought of, you (perhaps?) may be in the wrong venue.

[TomRobb]

Since this the WOODENboat forum, where f********s is a bit of a four-letter word, such sentiments are not unlikely. Much the same as in other circles where wood is looked down upon as arcane and laughable if not stubbornly wrongheaded and stupid. There's no accounting for tastes. F********s' advent nearly killed the skills pool of the wood boat-building trades. It wasn't a happy time. If you expected f********s to be well thought of, you (perhaps?) may be in the wrong venue.

[TomRobb]

Since this the WOODENboat forum, where f********s is a bit of a four-letter word, such sentiments are not unlikely. Much the same as in other circles where wood is looked down upon as arcane and laughable if not stubbornly wrongheaded and stupid. There's no accounting for tastes. F********s' advent nearly killed the skills pool of the wood boat-building trades. It wasn't a happy time. If you expected f********s to be well thought of, you (perhaps?) may be in the wrong venue.

[Alan D. Hyde]

I have seen many models of several series of early fiberglass boats, which are an exception to what Custom Skiffs talks about.

One would be the Hinckley's--- the early B-40s were built like tanks, and another would be the Alberg 35s--- probably an inch of solid laid-up hull below below the waterline.

Both the B-40s and the A-35s are good boats built to good designs. As with many things, there's some good and some bad to fiberglass. Personally, I like working with a piece of wood, using hand tools, and enjoying the smells, the feel, the sight, even the sound of what I'm doing. Glop and goop and glass just aren't that agreeable.

Alan

[Alan D. Hyde]

I have seen many models of several series of early fiberglass boats, which are an exception to what Custom Skiffs talks about.

One would be the Hinckley's--- the early B-40s were built like tanks, and another would be the Alberg 35s--- probably an inch of solid laid-up hull below below the waterline.

Both the B-40s and the A-35s are good boats built to good designs. As with many things, there's some good and some bad to fiberglass. Personally, I like working with a piece of wood, using hand tools, and enjoying the smells, the feel, the sight, even the sound of what I'm doing. Glop and goop and glass just aren't that agreeable.

Alan

[Alan D. Hyde]

I have seen many models of several series of early fiberglass boats, which are an exception to what Custom Skiffs talks about.

One would be the Hinckley's--- the early B-40s were built like tanks, and another would be the Alberg 35s--- probably an inch of solid laid-up hull below below the waterline.

Both the B-40s and the A-35s are good boats built to good designs. As with many things, there's some good and some bad to fiberglass. Personally, I like working with a piece of wood, using hand tools, and enjoying the smells, the feel, the sight, even the sound of what I'm doing. Glop and goop and glass just aren't that agreeable.

Alan

[charles carini]

Can i please see the Hinkley made with a chopper gun? CS made a statement about F*****s & chopper guns in the same breath. Chopper technology boat building makes inferior boats that were competively priced, like rope a dope polypropaleyne boats today - these allow people a good recreation from which they may even move on to wooden boats. It's still about fun, if it's about making money, well as an industry it's far from parts per million error free. Thus when buying a good affordable boat - find a small custom builder like CS who cares or build it yourself.

[charles carini]

Can i please see the Hinkley made with a chopper gun? CS made a statement about F*****s & chopper guns in the same breath. Chopper technology boat building makes inferior boats that were competively priced, like rope a dope polypropaleyne boats today - these allow people a good recreation from which they may even move on to wooden boats. It's still about fun, if it's about making money, well as an industry it's far from parts per million error free. Thus when buying a good affordable boat - find a small custom builder like CS who cares or build it yourself.

[charles carini]

Can i please see the Hinkley made with a chopper gun? CS made a statement about F*****s & chopper guns in the same breath. Chopper technology boat building makes inferior boats that were competively priced, like rope a dope polypropaleyne boats today - these allow people a good recreation from which they may even move on to wooden boats. It's still about fun, if it's about making money, well as an industry it's far from parts per million error free. Thus when buying a good affordable boat - find a small custom builder like CS who cares or build it yourself.

[Scott Rosen]

Nothing personal on the idiot comment. I also don't mean to imply that all FB owners are idiots. There are plenty of good reasons to own a FG boat, especially one built as well as a Hinkley or an Alberg. There's an Alberg two slips down from me, and it is one well built boat. The hull must be at least an inch thick and it is as solid as a tank. It's pretty too, but that's because it was designed to look like a classic wooden yacht of the 30's and 40's. BUT . . . if you read Pascoe's article, you will see that a large segment of the FG boat industry builds their products for people they believe are idiots. And in fact, many of them are, at least when it comes to boat matters. There are far fewer incompetents in wooden boats, simply because it takes too much of a commitment to own a wooden boat. There are many, many first time boaters out there who are more than happy to be sold a bill of goods without any knowledge or skills in boat ownership, maintenance and safety. These people buy a boat based on how it looks in the showroom, does it have air condiditioning, a microwave over, dishwasher, a mirror over the berth in the forepeak, wall to wall carpeting, built-in television and stereo, with speakers in the cockpit loud enough to be heard over the engines (and loud enought to be heard a half a mile away on the water), two heads with private showers (never mind that its tankage only holds 30 gallons of water); does it look sleek and fast and does it make a lot of noise? Those are the questions the "idiots" ask when they are buying a FG boat. One of Pascoe's points is that the buyer of a FG vessel must have more knowledge and the makers of FG boats must have greater respect for their customers.

I have no doubt that a modern Hinkley is built exceptionally well and will outlast its owners. I also have no doubt that a custom builder can make an excellent boat out of FG if the customer is willing to pay for the mold, the materials and the labor, which by the way will cost more than a custom made wooden boat.

One thing about FG, though, is that you can never get rid of the smell.

[Scott Rosen]

Nothing personal on the idiot comment. I also don't mean to imply that all FB owners are idiots. There are plenty of good reasons to own a FG boat, especially one built as well as a Hinkley or an Alberg. There's an Alberg two slips down from me, and it is one well built boat. The hull must be at least an inch thick and it is as solid as a tank. It's pretty too, but that's because it was designed to look like a classic wooden yacht of the 30's and 40's. BUT . . . if you read Pascoe's article, you will see that a large segment of the FG boat industry builds their products for people they believe are idiots. And in fact, many of them are, at least when it comes to boat matters. There are far fewer incompetents in wooden boats, simply because it takes too much of a commitment to own a wooden boat. There are many, many first time boaters out there who are more than happy to be sold a bill of goods without any knowledge or skills in boat ownership, maintenance and safety. These people buy a boat based on how it looks in the showroom, does it have air condiditioning, a microwave over, dishwasher, a mirror over the berth in the forepeak, wall to wall carpeting, built-in television and stereo, with speakers in the cockpit loud enough to be heard over the engines (and loud enought to be heard a half a mile away on the water), two heads with private showers (never mind that its tankage only holds 30 gallons of water); does it look sleek and fast and does it make a lot of noise? Those are the questions the "idiots" ask when they are buying a FG boat. One of Pascoe's points is that the buyer of a FG vessel must have more knowledge and the makers of FG boats must have greater respect for their customers.

I have no doubt that a modern Hinkley is built exceptionally well and will outlast its owners. I also have no doubt that a custom builder can make an excellent boat out of FG if the customer is willing to pay for the mold, the materials and the labor, which by the way will cost more than a custom made wooden boat.

One thing about FG, though, is that you can never get rid of the smell.

[Scott Rosen]

Nothing personal on the idiot comment. I also don't mean to imply that all FB owners are idiots. There are plenty of good reasons to own a FG boat, especially one built as well as a Hinkley or an Alberg. There's an Alberg two slips down from me, and it is one well built boat. The hull must be at least an inch thick and it is as solid as a tank. It's pretty too, but that's because it was designed to look like a classic wooden yacht of the 30's and 40's. BUT . . . if you read Pascoe's article, you will see that a large segment of the FG boat industry builds their products for people they believe are idiots. And in fact, many of them are, at least when it comes to boat matters. There are far fewer incompetents in wooden boats, simply because it takes too much of a commitment to own a wooden boat. There are many, many first time boaters out there who are more than happy to be sold a bill of goods without any knowledge or skills in boat ownership, maintenance and safety. These people buy a boat based on how it looks in the showroom, does it have air condiditioning, a microwave over, dishwasher, a mirror over the berth in the forepeak, wall to wall carpeting, built-in television and stereo, with speakers in the cockpit loud enough to be heard over the engines (and loud enought to be heard a half a mile away on the water), two heads with private showers (never mind that its tankage only holds 30 gallons of water); does it look sleek and fast and does it make a lot of noise? Those are the questions the "idiots" ask when they are buying a FG boat. One of Pascoe's points is that the buyer of a FG vessel must have more knowledge and the makers of FG boats must have greater respect for their customers.

I have no doubt that a modern Hinkley is built exceptionally well and will outlast its owners. I also have no doubt that a custom builder can make an excellent boat out of FG if the customer is willing to pay for the mold, the materials and the labor, which by the way will cost more than a custom made wooden boat.

One thing about FG, though, is that you can never get rid of the smell.

[ken mcclure]

Just in case there's a pool, I'm guessing 46 years, 3 months, 7 days, 6 hours, 41 minutes and 7 seconds. Give or take.

[ken mcclure]

Just in case there's a pool, I'm guessing 46 years, 3 months, 7 days, 6 hours, 41 minutes and 7 seconds. Give or take.

[ken mcclure]

Just in case there's a pool, I'm guessing 46 years, 3 months, 7 days, 6 hours, 41 minutes and 7 seconds. Give or take.

[Noah]

When I rebuilt my Folkboat this summer, there was a fibersnot 30ft racing sailboat across the way from me. It appears that the owner was also attempting to restore his boat. Seems the foam core in the decking needed to be replaced, as well as a number of other issues. This boat was built in the 70's, and from the outside looked great. My sailboat on the otherhand looked like sh*t. You could pass a beer through some of the seams...
Anyway the owner of the sailboat came by one day to see how it was going. Him and his pal laughed at my mess, and wondered how my boat was ever going to float again. This guy had plans to take 2 weeks off and sail. (in one month)

Well his launching day came and went, and mine came and happened. I was out sailing and he had given up. I have a feeling that boat won't be going in the water again... Even though it looks perfect on the outside.

Still the damn marina told me that they didn't want me back. They were worried about disposing of my boat if I couldn't fix it. Hell I had already been sailing for a month when they told me this! Those bastards are going to have one hell of a time disposing of the 30ft hunk of wetfoam and fiberglass that looks great.

So anyway, it might not be the fiberglass and the resins that give out, but the core.

Noah

[Noah]

When I rebuilt my Folkboat this summer, there was a fibersnot 30ft racing sailboat across the way from me. It appears that the owner was also attempting to restore his boat. Seems the foam core in the decking needed to be replaced, as well as a number of other issues. This boat was built in the 70's, and from the outside looked great. My sailboat on the otherhand looked like sh*t. You could pass a beer through some of the seams...
Anyway the owner of the sailboat came by one day to see how it was going. Him and his pal laughed at my mess, and wondered how my boat was ever going to float again. This guy had plans to take 2 weeks off and sail. (in one month)

Well his launching day came and went, and mine came and happened. I was out sailing and he had given up. I have a feeling that boat won't be going in the water again... Even though it looks perfect on the outside.

Still the damn marina told me that they didn't want me back. They were worried about disposing of my boat if I couldn't fix it. Hell I had already been sailing for a month when they told me this! Those bastards are going to have one hell of a time disposing of the 30ft hunk of wetfoam and fiberglass that looks great.

So anyway, it might not be the fiberglass and the resins that give out, but the core.

Noah

[Noah]

When I rebuilt my Folkboat this summer, there was a fibersnot 30ft racing sailboat across the way from me. It appears that the owner was also attempting to restore his boat. Seems the foam core in the decking needed to be replaced, as well as a number of other issues. This boat was built in the 70's, and from the outside looked great. My sailboat on the otherhand looked like sh*t. You could pass a beer through some of the seams...
Anyway the owner of the sailboat came by one day to see how it was going. Him and his pal laughed at my mess, and wondered how my boat was ever going to float again. This guy had plans to take 2 weeks off and sail. (in one month)

Well his launching day came and went, and mine came and happened. I was out sailing and he had given up. I have a feeling that boat won't be going in the water again... Even though it looks perfect on the outside.

Still the damn marina told me that they didn't want me back. They were worried about disposing of my boat if I couldn't fix it. Hell I had already been sailing for a month when they told me this! Those bastards are going to have one hell of a time disposing of the 30ft hunk of wetfoam and fiberglass that looks great.

So anyway, it might not be the fiberglass and the resins that give out, but the core.

Noah

[Tonyr]

I agree - the core is the problem, usually. I have a 1974 f**** 24" sailboat, and last season had to completely renovate (rebuild) the balsa cored deck below the mast step. The good news was that other then the core itself, the two layers of glass above and below it were just fine. I substituted epoxy and fabric for balsa, since the boat is not sensitive to weight enough to matter. Two years ago the ply core of the anchor hatch rotted, and again the FG was fine and the thing very fixable once the core was removed.

Thank goodness the hull itself is solid glass (no core), overbuilt like most of those early boats.

Regards, Tony.

[Tonyr]

I agree - the core is the problem, usually. I have a 1974 f**** 24" sailboat, and last season had to completely renovate (rebuild) the balsa cored deck below the mast step. The good news was that other then the core itself, the two layers of glass above and below it were just fine. I substituted epoxy and fabric for balsa, since the boat is not sensitive to weight enough to matter. Two years ago the ply core of the anchor hatch rotted, and again the FG was fine and the thing very fixable once the core was removed.

Thank goodness the hull itself is solid glass (no core), overbuilt like most of those early boats.

Regards, Tony.

[Tonyr]

I agree - the core is the problem, usually. I have a 1974 f**** 24" sailboat, and last season had to completely renovate (rebuild) the balsa cored deck below the mast step. The good news was that other then the core itself, the two layers of glass above and below it were just fine. I substituted epoxy and fabric for balsa, since the boat is not sensitive to weight enough to matter. Two years ago the ply core of the anchor hatch rotted, and again the FG was fine and the thing very fixable once the core was removed.

Thank goodness the hull itself is solid glass (no core), overbuilt like most of those early boats.

Regards, Tony.

[Mike Keers]

You guys are missing the point, tho' it was made above...it isn't the core that's the problem, per se, it's the lack of maintenance over the years, and improper hardware installation.....people don't realize they need to ocassionally pull fittings and hardware and rebed them, and they don't do proper installations to begin with.

I'm the founder of the Columbia Yacht Owners Association, and we have well over 1000 members, many with boats from the early 60s. Almost never is the FG itself the cause of problems...it's improper maintenance over many years. Don't blame the materials for the over-optimistic marketing and ignorant owners over the past decades.

[Mike Keers]

You guys are missing the point, tho' it was made above...it isn't the core that's the problem, per se, it's the lack of maintenance over the years, and improper hardware installation.....people don't realize they need to ocassionally pull fittings and hardware and rebed them, and they don't do proper installations to begin with.

I'm the founder of the Columbia Yacht Owners Association, and we have well over 1000 members, many with boats from the early 60s. Almost never is the FG itself the cause of problems...it's improper maintenance over many years. Don't blame the materials for the over-optimistic marketing and ignorant owners over the past decades.

[Mike Keers]

You guys are missing the point, tho' it was made above...it isn't the core that's the problem, per se, it's the lack of maintenance over the years, and improper hardware installation.....people don't realize they need to ocassionally pull fittings and hardware and rebed them, and they don't do proper installations to begin with.

I'm the founder of the Columbia Yacht Owners Association, and we have well over 1000 members, many with boats from the early 60s. Almost never is the FG itself the cause of problems...it's improper maintenance over many years. Don't blame the materials for the over-optimistic marketing and ignorant owners over the past decades.

[Todd Bradshaw]

This can be true, but in my experience the bigger problem is the core's installation in the first place and no amount of maintenance is going to cure it. As long as the builders of many fiberglass boats insist on sticking a sheet of plywood, end-grain balsa or foam into areas like transoms, slapping a layer of mat saturated with polyester resin over it and considering it sealed, it is likely to be a problem down the road - and there is absolutely nothing the owner can do in terms of maintenance to prevent what will eventually happen.

Seldom is an improperly sealed fitting going to uniformly ruin an entire deck or transom but that is the kind of repair job that happens all to frequently on old glass boats and it is a built-in defect, not a maintenance issue. If there is any formula that we preach about relentlessly on this forum as a recipe for potential disaster, it's polyester/fiberglass over plywood. In the long run, it just doesn't work and it doesn't matter whether it's in a "wooden" boat's hull or a fiberglass one. If your hull is well built and staying together, that's great and it doesn't surprise me a bit. I have more faith in well built glass hulls than most people on the forum. The fact that you carefully maintain it also helps to preserve it, but what is keeping it alive is primarily the initial construction.

[This message has been edited by Todd Bradshaw (edited 12-19-2001).]

[Todd Bradshaw]

This can be true, but in my experience the bigger problem is the core's installation in the first place and no amount of maintenance is going to cure it. As long as the builders of many fiberglass boats insist on sticking a sheet of plywood, end-grain balsa or foam into areas like transoms, slapping a layer of mat saturated with polyester resin over it and considering it sealed, it is likely to be a problem down the road - and there is absolutely nothing the owner can do in terms of maintenance to prevent what will eventually happen.

Seldom is an improperly sealed fitting going to uniformly ruin an entire deck or transom but that is the kind of repair job that happens all to frequently on old glass boats and it is a built-in defect, not a maintenance issue. If there is any formula that we preach about relentlessly on this forum as a recipe for potential disaster, it's polyester/fiberglass over plywood. In the long run, it just doesn't work and it doesn't matter whether it's in a "wooden" boat's hull or a fiberglass one. If your hull is well built and staying together, that's great and it doesn't surprise me a bit. I have more faith in well built glass hulls than most people on the forum. The fact that you carefully maintain it also helps to preserve it, but what is keeping it alive is primarily the initial construction.

[This message has been edited by Todd Bradshaw (edited 12-19-2001).]

[Todd Bradshaw]

This can be true, but in my experience the bigger problem is the core's installation in the first place and no amount of maintenance is going to cure it. As long as the builders of many fiberglass boats insist on sticking a sheet of plywood, end-grain balsa or foam into areas like transoms, slapping a layer of mat saturated with polyester resin over it and considering it sealed, it is likely to be a problem down the road - and there is absolutely nothing the owner can do in terms of maintenance to prevent what will eventually happen.

Seldom is an improperly sealed fitting going to uniformly ruin an entire deck or transom but that is the kind of repair job that happens all to frequently on old glass boats and it is a built-in defect, not a maintenance issue. If there is any formula that we preach about relentlessly on this forum as a recipe for potential disaster, it's polyester/fiberglass over plywood. In the long run, it just doesn't work and it doesn't matter whether it's in a "wooden" boat's hull or a fiberglass one. If your hull is well built and staying together, that's great and it doesn't surprise me a bit. I have more faith in well built glass hulls than most people on the forum. The fact that you carefully maintain it also helps to preserve it, but what is keeping it alive is primarily the initial construction.

[This message has been edited by Todd Bradshaw (edited 12-19-2001).]

[Scott Rosen]

Originally posted by Todd Bradshaw:
I have more faith in well built glass hulls than most people on the forum.

Todd, I have tremendous faith in the structural integrity of a well built fiberglass hull, especially for the first 20 or 30 years of its life. I just don't like the aesthetics.

[Scott Rosen]

Originally posted by Todd Bradshaw:
I have more faith in well built glass hulls than most people on the forum.

Todd, I have tremendous faith in the structural integrity of a well built fiberglass hull, especially for the first 20 or 30 years of its life. I just don't like the aesthetics.

[Scott Rosen]

Originally posted by Todd Bradshaw:
I have more faith in well built glass hulls than most people on the forum.

Todd, I have tremendous faith in the structural integrity of a well built fiberglass hull, especially for the first 20 or 30 years of its life. I just don't like the aesthetics.

[ahp]

Scott,

I agree. Most (99%) look like they should have a brand name like Kholer, American Standard, or Crane.

Art

[ahp]

Scott,

I agree. Most (99%) look like they should have a brand name like Kholer, American Standard, or Crane.

Art

[ahp]

Scott,

I agree. Most (99%) look like they should have a brand name like Kholer, American Standard, or Crane.

Art

[Mike Keers]

Scott,
As for aesthetics, if you're talking the average new Hunter piece of crap, or other Euro-design boat, I agree. But the older FG boats were often as beautiful in form as their wooden counterparts.

My boat, A 1965 Columbia 29, actually started as an S&S wooden design (called the Columbia 29), and a few were produced in wood before Dick Valdes bought the design and the rights to the name from S&S...he liked the boat so much he splashed a hull from the wooden one, and named a company after the design. Columbia peoduced over 25,000 boats. Several others of their design were also taken directly from existing wooden hulls.

I think a lot of the older 60's Aldens, Pearsons, Hinckleys. etc, are very graceful and do the material proud. As for Hunters and the other modern crap, I will not sink so low as to comment (or did I?)

[Mike Keers]

Scott,
As for aesthetics, if you're talking the average new Hunter piece of crap, or other Euro-design boat, I agree. But the older FG boats were often as beautiful in form as their wooden counterparts.

My boat, A 1965 Columbia 29, actually started as an S&S wooden design (called the Columbia 29), and a few were produced in wood before Dick Valdes bought the design and the rights to the name from S&S...he liked the boat so much he splashed a hull from the wooden one, and named a company after the design. Columbia peoduced over 25,000 boats. Several others of their design were also taken directly from existing wooden hulls.

I think a lot of the older 60's Aldens, Pearsons, Hinckleys. etc, are very graceful and do the material proud. As for Hunters and the other modern crap, I will not sink so low as to comment (or did I?)

[Mike Keers]

Scott,
As for aesthetics, if you're talking the average new Hunter piece of crap, or other Euro-design boat, I agree. But the older FG boats were often as beautiful in form as their wooden counterparts.

My boat, A 1965 Columbia 29, actually started as an S&S wooden design (called the Columbia 29), and a few were produced in wood before Dick Valdes bought the design and the rights to the name from S&S...he liked the boat so much he splashed a hull from the wooden one, and named a company after the design. Columbia peoduced over 25,000 boats. Several others of their design were also taken directly from existing wooden hulls.

I think a lot of the older 60's Aldens, Pearsons, Hinckleys. etc, are very graceful and do the material proud. As for Hunters and the other modern crap, I will not sink so low as to comment (or did I?)

[Bayboat]

I'm surprised that this thread has grown so long without mention of this: When trying to assess the longevity of fiberglas boats, don't forget to figure in the Polyestermite Factor.

[Bayboat]

I'm surprised that this thread has grown so long without mention of this: When trying to assess the longevity of fiberglas boats, don't forget to figure in the Polyestermite Factor.

[Bayboat]

I'm surprised that this thread has grown so long without mention of this: When trying to assess the longevity of fiberglas boats, don't forget to figure in the Polyestermite Factor.

[N. Scheuer]

Mike Keers makes some interesting comments, but they're like the opposite extreem from my 28 ft. Shearwater yawl built fifteen years ago by Edey&Duff.

TRUE NORTH has a qaulity lamination schedule combined with an AIREX (PVC) foam core (not prone to soak up water like urethane foam, nor rot like balsa WOOD, if it gets wet).

Furthermore, the boat dispalces something like 1900 lbs, so again, it is the opposite extreem from a Hinkley, yet still very much a quality boat.

AND, I repeat, AND it sits on a trailer able to roll any direction from Illinois toward water. This final quality, made possible by light-weight construction, will insure that I never have to suffer some of the foolish marina policies I read about here which some of you are being subjected to.

As for some of the other comments regarding poor quality above; I believe there exist on the market today a number of quality fiberglass boats in all sizes, from dinghys on up as far as you want to go. For someone to generalize about all FRP boats having questionable quality does no favor for the WoodenBoat Forum.

Moby Nick

[N. Scheuer]

Mike Keers makes some interesting comments, but they're like the opposite extreem from my 28 ft. Shearwater yawl built fifteen years ago by Edey&Duff.

TRUE NORTH has a qaulity lamination schedule combined with an AIREX (PVC) foam core (not prone to soak up water like urethane foam, nor rot like balsa WOOD, if it gets wet).

Furthermore, the boat dispalces something like 1900 lbs, so again, it is the opposite extreem from a Hinkley, yet still very much a quality boat.

AND, I repeat, AND it sits on a trailer able to roll any direction from Illinois toward water. This final quality, made possible by light-weight construction, will insure that I never have to suffer some of the foolish marina policies I read about here which some of you are being subjected to.

As for some of the other comments regarding poor quality above; I believe there exist on the market today a number of quality fiberglass boats in all sizes, from dinghys on up as far as you want to go. For someone to generalize about all FRP boats having questionable quality does no favor for the WoodenBoat Forum.

Moby Nick

[N. Scheuer]

Mike Keers makes some interesting comments, but they're like the opposite extreem from my 28 ft. Shearwater yawl built fifteen years ago by Edey&Duff.

TRUE NORTH has a qaulity lamination schedule combined with an AIREX (PVC) foam core (not prone to soak up water like urethane foam, nor rot like balsa WOOD, if it gets wet).

Furthermore, the boat dispalces something like 1900 lbs, so again, it is the opposite extreem from a Hinkley, yet still very much a quality boat.

AND, I repeat, AND it sits on a trailer able to roll any direction from Illinois toward water. This final quality, made possible by light-weight construction, will insure that I never have to suffer some of the foolish marina policies I read about here which some of you are being subjected to.

As for some of the other comments regarding poor quality above; I believe there exist on the market today a number of quality fiberglass boats in all sizes, from dinghys on up as far as you want to go. For someone to generalize about all FRP boats having questionable quality does no favor for the WoodenBoat Forum.

Moby Nick

[bill hersey]

Could be we're into a specious argument here, albeit interesting. My two cents come from the days when I was surveying in the early eighties (taking a career "break")and the West Coast was filling up with heavy Taiwan pirate ships that looked like they could take to you the ends of the earth.
Many of these designs were rip-offs from Bill Garden, Mason, Tripp and others, that were very poorly constructed and created a "reputation" which lingers to this day
(try and get insurance on a Formosa 51).

I personally:
Punched my hand through a big rudder to discover it stuffed with Chinese newspapers

Saw the teak cap rail on a CT54 pull up with a screw driver because it had been fastened to the raw glass with galvanized machine screws at 3 ft. intervals, even though there were bungs (fake) every nine inches.

Found countless voids in supposedly 1" hand laid glass where there was nothing but resin

and on and on...

Cheap labor, no supervision, greed, whatever, produced thousands of very poorly built boats that took the "miracle" of fiberglass yacht construction into the dumper -- at least out here.

When the bloom faded from that rose, a new breed of builders went into the orient and became involved with the better yards, and you had boats like the Masons built by Ta Shing -- some of the most beautifully crafted vessels I have seen. Now there are boats like Norhaven and others which are as strong and well designed as any fine yacht in commission today.

I only jump in on this because I had these questions of building materials, life span, safety, etc., asked many times -- and not just by prospective buyers, but by banks and insurance companies.

I considered myself a good surveyor, thorough, tough and demanding. Brokers hated me.I had many conversations with my compatriots of the time on these subjects. The agreement was that all "standard" (no bamboo or plastic pop bottles) shipbuilding materials have their place. The secret is totally design and quality of construction. Assuming pedigrees in both, no-one argues that welded steel is the strongest but the most arduous to properly maintain. Wood is given the longest average life span, probably because so many old wooden boats are still around and in service, and even rot doesn't move as fast as rust (yes, it's true. Fiberglass is actually considered the most problematical (sp?) because it has so many permutations; different fabrics, different resins, totally different construction methods. There really is no longer what one could categorize as just "fiberglass," unless one goes back to the original construction method from the late fifties. That method, by the way, was twice the weight of steel and twice the thickness to get the same impact strength (remember the old Wizard runabouts).

But now we are once again looking askance at cloth/resin/mold construction. I was recently hauled back into service (God knows why) to look at two Hunter "instances." One was the dropping of a keel and comensurate crew dislocation, and the other a collision where the offending vessel actually went right through one side of the Hunter and out the other. Out here we are seeing a lot of this new "composite" (whatever that really is) construction come apart, including a brand new half-million dollar yacht that entered her slip a little fast and took it on the nose -- and broke her nose completely. Not good.

But welding on steel or aluminum, timber selection and fastening, any of these -- and many more -- probably account for the ultimate life span of a vessel.

All this long-winded stuff being said, it gets down to what we like and what we know. For me, I understand wood, and feel better about sailing a well-built wooden vessel.
That's my preference. But I have skippered and crewed on many fine glass boats, and some not so fine, and owned a great S&S steel ketch. My friends with experience who own GRP vessels do agree that they actually require MORE regular cosmetic maintenance than wood or steel, and the worry about blisters, fatigue, etc. levels any playing field when one tends to raise an eyebrow at "what she's made of."



[This message has been edited by bill hersey (edited 12-20-2001).]

[bill hersey]

Could be we're into a specious argument here, albeit interesting. My two cents come from the days when I was surveying in the early eighties (taking a career "break")and the West Coast was filling up with heavy Taiwan pirate ships that looked like they could take to you the ends of the earth.
Many of these designs were rip-offs from Bill Garden, Mason, Tripp and others, that were very poorly constructed and created a "reputation" which lingers to this day
(try and get insurance on a Formosa 51).

I personally:
Punched my hand through a big rudder to discover it stuffed with Chinese newspapers

Saw the teak cap rail on a CT54 pull up with a screw driver because it had been fastened to the raw glass with galvanized machine screws at 3 ft. intervals, even though there were bungs (fake) every nine inches.

Found countless voids in supposedly 1" hand laid glass where there was nothing but resin

and on and on...

Cheap labor, no supervision, greed, whatever, produced thousands of very poorly built boats that took the "miracle" of fiberglass yacht construction into the dumper -- at least out here.

When the bloom faded from that rose, a new breed of builders went into the orient and became involved with the better yards, and you had boats like the Masons built by Ta Shing -- some of the most beautifully crafted vessels I have seen. Now there are boats like Norhaven and others which are as strong and well designed as any fine yacht in commission today.

I only jump in on this because I had these questions of building materials, life span, safety, etc., asked many times -- and not just by prospective buyers, but by banks and insurance companies.

I considered myself a good surveyor, thorough, tough and demanding. Brokers hated me.I had many conversations with my compatriots of the time on these subjects. The agreement was that all "standard" (no bamboo or plastic pop bottles) shipbuilding materials have their place. The secret is totally design and quality of construction. Assuming pedigrees in both, no-one argues that welded steel is the strongest but the most arduous to properly maintain. Wood is given the longest average life span, probably because so many old wooden boats are still around and in service, and even rot doesn't move as fast as rust (yes, it's true. Fiberglass is actually considered the most problematical (sp?) because it has so many permutations; different fabrics, different resins, totally different construction methods. There really is no longer what one could categorize as just "fiberglass," unless one goes back to the original construction method from the late fifties. That method, by the way, was twice the weight of steel and twice the thickness to get the same impact strength (remember the old Wizard runabouts).

But now we are once again looking askance at cloth/resin/mold construction. I was recently hauled back into service (God knows why) to look at two Hunter "instances." One was the dropping of a keel and comensurate crew dislocation, and the other a collision where the offending vessel actually went right through one side of the Hunter and out the other. Out here we are seeing a lot of this new "composite" (whatever that really is) construction come apart, including a brand new half-million dollar yacht that entered her slip a little fast and took it on the nose -- and broke her nose completely. Not good.

But welding on steel or aluminum, timber selection and fastening, any of these -- and many more -- probably account for the ultimate life span of a vessel.

All this long-winded stuff being said, it gets down to what we like and what we know. For me, I understand wood, and feel better about sailing a well-built wooden vessel.
That's my preference. But I have skippered and crewed on many fine glass boats, and some not so fine, and owned a great S&S steel ketch. My friends with experience who own GRP vessels do agree that they actually require MORE regular cosmetic maintenance than wood or steel, and the worry about blisters, fatigue, etc. levels any playing field when one tends to raise an eyebrow at "what she's made of."



[This message has been edited by bill hersey (edited 12-20-2001).]

[bill hersey]

Could be we're into a specious argument here, albeit interesting. My two cents come from the days when I was surveying in the early eighties (taking a career "break")and the West Coast was filling up with heavy Taiwan pirate ships that looked like they could take to you the ends of the earth.
Many of these designs were rip-offs from Bill Garden, Mason, Tripp and others, that were very poorly constructed and created a "reputation" which lingers to this day
(try and get insurance on a Formosa 51).

I personally:
Punched my hand through a big rudder to discover it stuffed with Chinese newspapers

Saw the teak cap rail on a CT54 pull up with a screw driver because it had been fastened to the raw glass with galvanized machine screws at 3 ft. intervals, even though there were bungs (fake) every nine inches.

Found countless voids in supposedly 1" hand laid glass where there was nothing but resin

and on and on...

Cheap labor, no supervision, greed, whatever, produced thousands of very poorly built boats that took the "miracle" of fiberglass yacht construction into the dumper -- at least out here.

When the bloom faded from that rose, a new breed of builders went into the orient and became involved with the better yards, and you had boats like the Masons built by Ta Shing -- some of the most beautifully crafted vessels I have seen. Now there are boats like Norhaven and others which are as strong and well designed as any fine yacht in commission today.

I only jump in on this because I had these questions of building materials, life span, safety, etc., asked many times -- and not just by prospective buyers, but by banks and insurance companies.

I considered myself a good surveyor, thorough, tough and demanding. Brokers hated me.I had many conversations with my compatriots of the time on these subjects. The agreement was that all "standard" (no bamboo or plastic pop bottles) shipbuilding materials have their place. The secret is totally design and quality of construction. Assuming pedigrees in both, no-one argues that welded steel is the strongest but the most arduous to properly maintain. Wood is given the longest average life span, probably because so many old wooden boats are still around and in service, and even rot doesn't move as fast as rust (yes, it's true. Fiberglass is actually considered the most problematical (sp?) because it has so many permutations; different fabrics, different resins, totally different construction methods. There really is no longer what one could categorize as just "fiberglass," unless one goes back to the original construction method from the late fifties. That method, by the way, was twice the weight of steel and twice the thickness to get the same impact strength (remember the old Wizard runabouts).

But now we are once again looking askance at cloth/resin/mold construction. I was recently hauled back into service (God knows why) to look at two Hunter "instances." One was the dropping of a keel and comensurate crew dislocation, and the other a collision where the offending vessel actually went right through one side of the Hunter and out the other. Out here we are seeing a lot of this new "composite" (whatever that really is) construction come apart, including a brand new half-million dollar yacht that entered her slip a little fast and took it on the nose -- and broke her nose completely. Not good.

But welding on steel or aluminum, timber selection and fastening, any of these -- and many more -- probably account for the ultimate life span of a vessel.

All this long-winded stuff being said, it gets down to what we like and what we know. For me, I understand wood, and feel better about sailing a well-built wooden vessel.
That's my preference. But I have skippered and crewed on many fine glass boats, and some not so fine, and owned a great S&S steel ketch. My friends with experience who own GRP vessels do agree that they actually require MORE regular cosmetic maintenance than wood or steel, and the worry about blisters, fatigue, etc. levels any playing field when one tends to raise an eyebrow at "what she's made of."



[This message has been edited by bill hersey (edited 12-20-2001).]

[Scott Rosen]

Bill, thanks. That was an excellent post.

I mean something different by the word quality than some of the other posters.

I don't doubt that there many fiberglass boats today that are structurally sound and are built to spec. (There are also many that are not.) That's not quality to me. That's just basic competence--it's the starting point for judging quality, not the ending point. Anything less than that doesn't deserve to even be considered in this post. It's trash.

With the exception of some Hinkleys and some custom work, I've never seen a glass production boat that has what I would consider high quality work. The joinery usually stinks. Except for the exterior glass, the quality of finish usually stinks. When I walk on board most FG production boats, I feel as if I'm in a camping trailer. The cabin soles are usually that fake teak/holly veneer, finished with a light coat of home-grade polyurathane that won't protect it from a dropped screwdriver. Same with shelves, cabinets, etc. In short, those boats are missing a sense of craftsmanship, a sense that caring human hands built the thing.

Ultimately, that might be an aesthetic matter. But to me it means everything.

Old glass boats are a maintenance problem. But the reason the new ones sell so hot is because the prospective owner thinks he can ignore maintenance indefinitely. That's what the industry says. That's part of what almost killed the wooden boat industry. Truth is, he can ignore it for a few years, maybe as many as five or ten. But then it all catches up. And then the FG owner has a boat that he can't bring up to snuff without an awful lot of time and money, and repairs that are beyond the amateur's ability.

I still say that I can sand and paint my hull in no more time than it takes to wax a glass hull and paint the bottom. And the work is infinitely more enjoyable. Every spring, my boat looks brand-spanking new. The glass boats always look a year older.

Sorry if I'm offending the glass boat owners, but I'm calling it as I see it.

[Scott Rosen]

Bill, thanks. That was an excellent post.

I mean something different by the word quality than some of the other posters.

I don't doubt that there many fiberglass boats today that are structurally sound and are built to spec. (There are also many that are not.) That's not quality to me. That's just basic competence--it's the starting point for judging quality, not the ending point. Anything less than that doesn't deserve to even be considered in this post. It's trash.

With the exception of some Hinkleys and some custom work, I've never seen a glass production boat that has what I would consider high quality work. The joinery usually stinks. Except for the exterior glass, the quality of finish usually stinks. When I walk on board most FG production boats, I feel as if I'm in a camping trailer. The cabin soles are usually that fake teak/holly veneer, finished with a light coat of home-grade polyurathane that won't protect it from a dropped screwdriver. Same with shelves, cabinets, etc. In short, those boats are missing a sense of craftsmanship, a sense that caring human hands built the thing.

Ultimately, that might be an aesthetic matter. But to me it means everything.

Old glass boats are a maintenance problem. But the reason the new ones sell so hot is because the prospective owner thinks he can ignore maintenance indefinitely. That's what the industry says. That's part of what almost killed the wooden boat industry. Truth is, he can ignore it for a few years, maybe as many as five or ten. But then it all catches up. And then the FG owner has a boat that he can't bring up to snuff without an awful lot of time and money, and repairs that are beyond the amateur's ability.

I still say that I can sand and paint my hull in no more time than it takes to wax a glass hull and paint the bottom. And the work is infinitely more enjoyable. Every spring, my boat looks brand-spanking new. The glass boats always look a year older.

Sorry if I'm offending the glass boat owners, but I'm calling it as I see it.

[Scott Rosen]

Bill, thanks. That was an excellent post.

I mean something different by the word quality than some of the other posters.

I don't doubt that there many fiberglass boats today that are structurally sound and are built to spec. (There are also many that are not.) That's not quality to me. That's just basic competence--it's the starting point for judging quality, not the ending point. Anything less than that doesn't deserve to even be considered in this post. It's trash.

With the exception of some Hinkleys and some custom work, I've never seen a glass production boat that has what I would consider high quality work. The joinery usually stinks. Except for the exterior glass, the quality of finish usually stinks. When I walk on board most FG production boats, I feel as if I'm in a camping trailer. The cabin soles are usually that fake teak/holly veneer, finished with a light coat of home-grade polyurathane that won't protect it from a dropped screwdriver. Same with shelves, cabinets, etc. In short, those boats are missing a sense of craftsmanship, a sense that caring human hands built the thing.

Ultimately, that might be an aesthetic matter. But to me it means everything.

Old glass boats are a maintenance problem. But the reason the new ones sell so hot is because the prospective owner thinks he can ignore maintenance indefinitely. That's what the industry says. That's part of what almost killed the wooden boat industry. Truth is, he can ignore it for a few years, maybe as many as five or ten. But then it all catches up. And then the FG owner has a boat that he can't bring up to snuff without an awful lot of time and money, and repairs that are beyond the amateur's ability.

I still say that I can sand and paint my hull in no more time than it takes to wax a glass hull and paint the bottom. And the work is infinitely more enjoyable. Every spring, my boat looks brand-spanking new. The glass boats always look a year older.

Sorry if I'm offending the glass boat owners, but I'm calling it as I see it.

[blaydone]

Aesthetic considerations should be moderated by practical needs. I am teaching my three young sons to sail. I don't want to see a lovingly maintained, beautifully joined hull bouncing off the dock. Hence the 40 year old, durable hull mentioned earlier on this thread.

[blaydone]

Aesthetic considerations should be moderated by practical needs. I am teaching my three young sons to sail. I don't want to see a lovingly maintained, beautifully joined hull bouncing off the dock. Hence the 40 year old, durable hull mentioned earlier on this thread.

[blaydone]

Aesthetic considerations should be moderated by practical needs. I am teaching my three young sons to sail. I don't want to see a lovingly maintained, beautifully joined hull bouncing off the dock. Hence the 40 year old, durable hull mentioned earlier on this thread.

[bill hersey]

Good point. As father of two boys who, at ages 10 and 12 were more interested in seeing if the dink stayed afloat or not, and how fast they could run it up on the beach, I couldn't imagine anything else. They learned to love wooden boats on their own and are both keen sailors now. But kids are kids.

Transposing that argument, maybe some of the current manufacturers realize they are selling to middle-aged 12 year olds.

Scott, your point is also well taken. The "quality" issue could stem from the initial design and specs. Is it for low-priced mass production or semi-custom? I don't really know how many cruisers Chris Craft put out per year in its prime, but it probably is far below some of the new names on the market.And weren't they considered the largest "maufacturer" in the '50s?

I also saw your pic of PATIENCE, and what a pretty boat! That's quality. Still trying to post a photo of AMANTE. Maybe after the New Year.

And since I probably won't be on here for a few days (even though I may try to sneak over to the computer) I want to wish you, and all the denizens of the Forum a wonderful, warm, and safe Holiday.

[This message has been edited by bill hersey (edited 12-21-2001).]

[bill hersey]

Good point. As father of two boys who, at ages 10 and 12 were more interested in seeing if the dink stayed afloat or not, and how fast they could run it up on the beach, I couldn't imagine anything else. They learned to love wooden boats on their own and are both keen sailors now. But kids are kids.

Transposing that argument, maybe some of the current manufacturers realize they are selling to middle-aged 12 year olds.

Scott, your point is also well taken. The "quality" issue could stem from the initial design and specs. Is it for low-priced mass production or semi-custom? I don't really know how many cruisers Chris Craft put out per year in its prime, but it probably is far below some of the new names on the market.And weren't they considered the largest "maufacturer" in the '50s?

I also saw your pic of PATIENCE, and what a pretty boat! That's quality. Still trying to post a photo of AMANTE. Maybe after the New Year.

And since I probably won't be on here for a few days (even though I may try to sneak over to the computer) I want to wish you, and all the denizens of the Forum a wonderful, warm, and safe Holiday.

[This message has been edited by bill hersey (edited 12-21-2001).]

[bill hersey]

Good point. As father of two boys who, at ages 10 and 12 were more interested in seeing if the dink stayed afloat or not, and how fast they could run it up on the beach, I couldn't imagine anything else. They learned to love wooden boats on their own and are both keen sailors now. But kids are kids.

Transposing that argument, maybe some of the current manufacturers realize they are selling to middle-aged 12 year olds.

Scott, your point is also well taken. The "quality" issue could stem from the initial design and specs. Is it for low-priced mass production or semi-custom? I don't really know how many cruisers Chris Craft put out per year in its prime, but it probably is far below some of the new names on the market.And weren't they considered the largest "maufacturer" in the '50s?

I also saw your pic of PATIENCE, and what a pretty boat! That's quality. Still trying to post a photo of AMANTE. Maybe after the New Year.

And since I probably won't be on here for a few days (even though I may try to sneak over to the computer) I want to wish you, and all the denizens of the Forum a wonderful, warm, and safe Holiday.

[This message has been edited by bill hersey (edited 12-21-2001).]

[Scott Rosen]

Blaydone,

Not to flog a dead horse, but I agree with you to a point. I used to race Thistles. Glass ones. I had a blast and I loved the boats. But I wasn't looking for quality. The boat was good enough for what I needed and that was fine. Same with kids. I learned how to sail on SuperSprites and Sunfishes, etc. They were all glass. When I was a ten year old, I wouldn't have had the ability or the desire to maintain wood. I let my dad do that.

But as to the banging on the dock thing. If you have a glass hull banging on the dock, you will get scratches and gouges that you cannot fix except by spending tons of money for a new gelcoat or a professional Awlgrip job. That's why you see lots of glass boats with unrepaired dings, scratches, gouges, etc. You do that to a wooden boat, of any quality, and you fix it with a quick application of putty and paint. You can do a decent touchup while the boat is in the water in less than 10 minutes total time--five minutes to apply the putty, and the next day five minutes to spot sand and apply the paint. When you repaint your topsides in the spring, the damage disappears. In other words, you worry less about dings and things with a wooden boat because they are easier to repair.

With the advances in wood/glue construction, like cold-molding, there's really no advantage to glass, if you have the choice. I think a cold-molded wood hull is superior to a glass hull in every respect, including cost. Anyone have a different opinion on that? LOL

[Scott Rosen]

Blaydone,

Not to flog a dead horse, but I agree with you to a point. I used to race Thistles. Glass ones. I had a blast and I loved the boats. But I wasn't looking for quality. The boat was good enough for what I needed and that was fine. Same with kids. I learned how to sail on SuperSprites and Sunfishes, etc. They were all glass. When I was a ten year old, I wouldn't have had the ability or the desire to maintain wood. I let my dad do that.

But as to the banging on the dock thing. If you have a glass hull banging on the dock, you will get scratches and gouges that you cannot fix except by spending tons of money for a new gelcoat or a professional Awlgrip job. That's why you see lots of glass boats with unrepaired dings, scratches, gouges, etc. You do that to a wooden boat, of any quality, and you fix it with a quick application of putty and paint. You can do a decent touchup while the boat is in the water in less than 10 minutes total time--five minutes to apply the putty, and the next day five minutes to spot sand and apply the paint. When you repaint your topsides in the spring, the damage disappears. In other words, you worry less about dings and things with a wooden boat because they are easier to repair.

With the advances in wood/glue construction, like cold-molding, there's really no advantage to glass, if you have the choice. I think a cold-molded wood hull is superior to a glass hull in every respect, including cost. Anyone have a different opinion on that? LOL

[Scott Rosen]

Blaydone,

Not to flog a dead horse, but I agree with you to a point. I used to race Thistles. Glass ones. I had a blast and I loved the boats. But I wasn't looking for quality. The boat was good enough for what I needed and that was fine. Same with kids. I learned how to sail on SuperSprites and Sunfishes, etc. They were all glass. When I was a ten year old, I wouldn't have had the ability or the desire to maintain wood. I let my dad do that.

But as to the banging on the dock thing. If you have a glass hull banging on the dock, you will get scratches and gouges that you cannot fix except by spending tons of money for a new gelcoat or a professional Awlgrip job. That's why you see lots of glass boats with unrepaired dings, scratches, gouges, etc. You do that to a wooden boat, of any quality, and you fix it with a quick application of putty and paint. You can do a decent touchup while the boat is in the water in less than 10 minutes total time--five minutes to apply the putty, and the next day five minutes to spot sand and apply the paint. When you repaint your topsides in the spring, the damage disappears. In other words, you worry less about dings and things with a wooden boat because they are easier to repair.

With the advances in wood/glue construction, like cold-molding, there's really no advantage to glass, if you have the choice. I think a cold-molded wood hull is superior to a glass hull in every respect, including cost. Anyone have a different opinion on that? LOL

[blaydone]

Well, yeah, me. I fix lots of rowing shells for the local rowing club. Glass, composites and even a few old woodies. I've fixed glass boats in between races--everything from cracks to running into steel mooring buoys--which is maybe looking at 30 minutes curing time. A ding is a ding regardless of construction type.

[blaydone]

Well, yeah, me. I fix lots of rowing shells for the local rowing club. Glass, composites and even a few old woodies. I've fixed glass boats in between races--everything from cracks to running into steel mooring buoys--which is maybe looking at 30 minutes curing time. A ding is a ding regardless of construction type.

[blaydone]

Well, yeah, me. I fix lots of rowing shells for the local rowing club. Glass, composites and even a few old woodies. I've fixed glass boats in between races--everything from cracks to running into steel mooring buoys--which is maybe looking at 30 minutes curing time. A ding is a ding regardless of construction type.

[bainbridgeisland]

Scott: You said "With the exception of some Hinkleys and some custom work, I've never seen a glass production boat that has what I would consider high quality work."

If you are seeking high quality work, I believe you need to inspect more custom glass boats. It is not really fair to compare custom wooden boats to production glass boats. We must compare custom boats to custom boats.

Even production boats can be especially well made. Have you inspected International Canoes made by Steve Clark or 5o5s or Moore 24s made by the Moore Brothers to name just three well built production boats.

Further, style of construction has a lot to do with our impressions of a boat. I personally enjoy fine timber cabinetry. But as you must realize, such cabinetry is not the only high quality method.

I spent a few years as a Yacht Designer. This gave me a special opportunity to see the work of outstanding craftsman in timber, glass and steel construction. In my opinion, the traits that make the best timber builders can be found in fine glass and steel tradesman as well.

Another point: Time has helped the pedigree of the wooden boats we know and love today. Poor quality wooden boats have generally not survived. Thus, what we see today is the best work of a few generations. In the early 70s, when apprenticing to a boatyard, I saw firsthand many poorly constructed timber boats in their dying days. Thankfully most of them are gone today. What is left are often the most exceptional boats of the period.

[bainbridgeisland]

Scott: You said "With the exception of some Hinkleys and some custom work, I've never seen a glass production boat that has what I would consider high quality work."

If you are seeking high quality work, I believe you need to inspect more custom glass boats. It is not really fair to compare custom wooden boats to production glass boats. We must compare custom boats to custom boats.

Even production boats can be especially well made. Have you inspected International Canoes made by Steve Clark or 5o5s or Moore 24s made by the Moore Brothers to name just three well built production boats.

Further, style of construction has a lot to do with our impressions of a boat. I personally enjoy fine timber cabinetry. But as you must realize, such cabinetry is not the only high quality method.

I spent a few years as a Yacht Designer. This gave me a special opportunity to see the work of outstanding craftsman in timber, glass and steel construction. In my opinion, the traits that make the best timber builders can be found in fine glass and steel tradesman as well.

Another point: Time has helped the pedigree of the wooden boats we know and love today. Poor quality wooden boats have generally not survived. Thus, what we see today is the best work of a few generations. In the early 70s, when apprenticing to a boatyard, I saw firsthand many poorly constructed timber boats in their dying days. Thankfully most of them are gone today. What is left are often the most exceptional boats of the period.

[bainbridgeisland]

Scott: You said "With the exception of some Hinkleys and some custom work, I've never seen a glass production boat that has what I would consider high quality work."

If you are seeking high quality work, I believe you need to inspect more custom glass boats. It is not really fair to compare custom wooden boats to production glass boats. We must compare custom boats to custom boats.

Even production boats can be especially well made. Have you inspected International Canoes made by Steve Clark or 5o5s or Moore 24s made by the Moore Brothers to name just three well built production boats.

Further, style of construction has a lot to do with our impressions of a boat. I personally enjoy fine timber cabinetry. But as you must realize, such cabinetry is not the only high quality method.

I spent a few years as a Yacht Designer. This gave me a special opportunity to see the work of outstanding craftsman in timber, glass and steel construction. In my opinion, the traits that make the best timber builders can be found in fine glass and steel tradesman as well.

Another point: Time has helped the pedigree of the wooden boats we know and love today. Poor quality wooden boats have generally not survived. Thus, what we see today is the best work of a few generations. In the early 70s, when apprenticing to a boatyard, I saw firsthand many poorly constructed timber boats in their dying days. Thankfully most of them are gone today. What is left are often the most exceptional boats of the period.