West System 410 Warning ?

[Concordia..41]

Let's say that on and off through today's rain :rolleyes: I've been mixing 410 and vinylester to fill in areas on the foredeck of a 22' FRP daysailer I'm trying to get back in the water.

And let's say I find myself out of nail polish remover and go out to the garage to get the acetone ;) and as I'm kneeling down and using the acetone to take off my nail polish I read the label on the canister of 410 which says:
WARNING! Do not mix with polyester or vinylester resins. 410 Microlight mixed with WEST SYSTEM may be used over cured and properly prepared polyester and vinylester surfaces. ???? :confused:

It seems to be fine. I filled a few spots and sanded them down, and when all seemed to be going ok (during a break between storms) I went through about 5 small batches figuring this would be a good filler for my sloppy glass work :confused:

Comments, experience, observations?

Thanks!
- M

[ 07-02-2005, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Concordia..41 ]

[Concordia..41]

Let's say that on and off through today's rain :rolleyes: I've been mixing 410 and vinylester to fill in areas on the foredeck of a 22' FRP daysailer I'm trying to get back in the water.

And let's say I find myself out of nail polish remover and go out to the garage to get the acetone ;) and as I'm kneeling down and using the acetone to take off my nail polish I read the label on the canister of 410 which says:
WARNING! Do not mix with polyester or vinylester resins. 410 Microlight mixed with WEST SYSTEM may be used over cured and properly prepared polyester and vinylester surfaces. ???? :confused:

It seems to be fine. I filled a few spots and sanded them down, and when all seemed to be going ok (during a break between storms) I went through about 5 small batches figuring this would be a good filler for my sloppy glass work :confused:

Comments, experience, observations?

Thanks!
- M

[ 07-02-2005, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Concordia..41 ]

[Concordia..41]

Let's say that on and off through today's rain :rolleyes: I've been mixing 410 and vinylester to fill in areas on the foredeck of a 22' FRP daysailer I'm trying to get back in the water.

And let's say I find myself out of nail polish remover and go out to the garage to get the acetone ;) and as I'm kneeling down and using the acetone to take off my nail polish I read the label on the canister of 410 which says:
WARNING! Do not mix with polyester or vinylester resins. 410 Microlight mixed with WEST SYSTEM may be used over cured and properly prepared polyester and vinylester surfaces. ???? :confused:

It seems to be fine. I filled a few spots and sanded them down, and when all seemed to be going ok (during a break between storms) I went through about 5 small batches figuring this would be a good filler for my sloppy glass work :confused:

Comments, experience, observations?

Thanks!
- M

[ 07-02-2005, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Concordia..41 ]

[Wild Wassa]

Please don't view this as sound advice.

Is 410 a sandable filler and not an advised extender? If the answer is yes that might give a hint. You could now be robbing a manufacturer of profit.

Many 'not to be mixed with products', can be mixed, depending on the manufacturer's generosity, I find. Then when you get a better result than a manufacturer and show the manufacturer, all of a sudden your efforts don't matter, nore do royalties come your way either ... but it is now the hottest thing on the market.

One thing that I have found, when I've done tests because I like to mix and match products a lot, is that a brittleness can happen, that isn't normally inherant in the main material.

It is a hard one Margo. I've become very cynical about the do's an do nots.

Once you learn a product, don't lose your sense of humour.

Warren.

[ 07-02-2005, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Wild Wassa]

Please don't view this as sound advice.

Is 410 a sandable filler and not an advised extender? If the answer is yes that might give a hint. You could now be robbing a manufacturer of profit.

Many 'not to be mixed with products', can be mixed, depending on the manufacturer's generosity, I find. Then when you get a better result than a manufacturer and show the manufacturer, all of a sudden your efforts don't matter, nore do royalties come your way either ... but it is now the hottest thing on the market.

One thing that I have found, when I've done tests because I like to mix and match products a lot, is that a brittleness can happen, that isn't normally inherant in the main material.

It is a hard one Margo. I've become very cynical about the do's an do nots.

Once you learn a product, don't lose your sense of humour.

Warren.

[ 07-02-2005, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Wild Wassa]

Please don't view this as sound advice.

Is 410 a sandable filler and not an advised extender? If the answer is yes that might give a hint. You could now be robbing a manufacturer of profit.

Many 'not to be mixed with products', can be mixed, depending on the manufacturer's generosity, I find. Then when you get a better result than a manufacturer and show the manufacturer, all of a sudden your efforts don't matter, nore do royalties come your way either ... but it is now the hottest thing on the market.

One thing that I have found, when I've done tests because I like to mix and match products a lot, is that a brittleness can happen, that isn't normally inherant in the main material.

It is a hard one Margo. I've become very cynical about the do's an do nots.

Once you learn a product, don't lose your sense of humour.

Warren.

[ 07-02-2005, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Concordia..41]

Warren - yes, it's a sandable filler, but the first thing I did was look at the other canisters - 406 (colloidal silica) and 407 (low-density fairing filler) and neither have the same warning.

That's what spooked me. Oh well, we'll see what tomorrow holds.

- M

[Concordia..41]

Warren - yes, it's a sandable filler, but the first thing I did was look at the other canisters - 406 (colloidal silica) and 407 (low-density fairing filler) and neither have the same warning.

That's what spooked me. Oh well, we'll see what tomorrow holds.

- M

[Concordia..41]

Warren - yes, it's a sandable filler, but the first thing I did was look at the other canisters - 406 (colloidal silica) and 407 (low-density fairing filler) and neither have the same warning.

That's what spooked me. Oh well, we'll see what tomorrow holds.

- M

[Wild Wassa]

Margo, if I was questioning what I'd done (and you are not in a real hurry) and I felt that there may not be a need to remove what I had done, I'd start and finish a small test section to completion. I'd let it cure to what I would consider normal and keep finger nail testing the test.

Until I was sure that I really hadn't blown it or until someone wise answers your question.

Warren.

[ 07-02-2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Wild Wassa]

Margo, if I was questioning what I'd done (and you are not in a real hurry) and I felt that there may not be a need to remove what I had done, I'd start and finish a small test section to completion. I'd let it cure to what I would consider normal and keep finger nail testing the test.

Until I was sure that I really hadn't blown it or until someone wise answers your question.

Warren.

[ 07-02-2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Wild Wassa]

Margo, if I was questioning what I'd done (and you are not in a real hurry) and I felt that there may not be a need to remove what I had done, I'd start and finish a small test section to completion. I'd let it cure to what I would consider normal and keep finger nail testing the test.

Until I was sure that I really hadn't blown it or until someone wise answers your question.

Warren.

[ 07-02-2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[kc8pql]

I may be wrong here but as I recall, Microlite (410) is a plastic material. It may be that the solvents in poly and vinylester resin attack the plastic.

[kc8pql]

I may be wrong here but as I recall, Microlite (410) is a plastic material. It may be that the solvents in poly and vinylester resin attack the plastic.

[kc8pql]

I may be wrong here but as I recall, Microlite (410) is a plastic material. It may be that the solvents in poly and vinylester resin attack the plastic.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I took a quick look at the MSDS and the major constituent is Sodium borosilicate - the organic components are less than 10% - It may very well work fine.
Suck it and see job.

The Data Sheet. (http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/safety/MSDS410.pdf)

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I took a quick look at the MSDS and the major constituent is Sodium borosilicate - the organic components are less than 10% - It may very well work fine.
Suck it and see job.

The Data Sheet. (http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/safety/MSDS410.pdf)

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I took a quick look at the MSDS and the major constituent is Sodium borosilicate - the organic components are less than 10% - It may very well work fine.
Suck it and see job.

The Data Sheet. (http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/safety/MSDS410.pdf)

[JimConlin]

I had also recollected that 410 was a plastic material, hence the warning "Not recommended under dark paint or other surfaces subject to high temperatures. " which is still on the Gougeons' web site.

Confused.

[JimConlin]

I had also recollected that 410 was a plastic material, hence the warning "Not recommended under dark paint or other surfaces subject to high temperatures. " which is still on the Gougeons' web site.

Confused.

[JimConlin]

I had also recollected that 410 was a plastic material, hence the warning "Not recommended under dark paint or other surfaces subject to high temperatures. " which is still on the Gougeons' web site.

Confused.

[WFK]

I think I'd call both companys and talk to their tech. support and see what they have to say.

[WFK]

I think I'd call both companys and talk to their tech. support and see what they have to say.

[WFK]

I think I'd call both companys and talk to their tech. support and see what they have to say.

[George Roberts]

Concordia..41 ---

I expect suppliers to be truthful in their packaging.

Ask yourself: If these batches of filler/resin/hardener fail, will the boat make it back to shore?

If the answer is yes, continue on and ignore the issue.

If the answer is no, undo the work and redo the work.

[George Roberts]

Concordia..41 ---

I expect suppliers to be truthful in their packaging.

Ask yourself: If these batches of filler/resin/hardener fail, will the boat make it back to shore?

If the answer is yes, continue on and ignore the issue.

If the answer is no, undo the work and redo the work.

[George Roberts]

Concordia..41 ---

I expect suppliers to be truthful in their packaging.

Ask yourself: If these batches of filler/resin/hardener fail, will the boat make it back to shore?

If the answer is yes, continue on and ignore the issue.

If the answer is no, undo the work and redo the work.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I'd bet that it's a fire hazard. Any superlight filler creates a lot of insulation, especially ones containing hollow stuff like microballoons. It's not unusual for polyester or vinylester to create a lot of heat as it hardens and if it can't go anywhere because insulation is keeping it in, it just might flash and burn. Epoxy will sometimes heat up enough that a big blob of microballoon filler will smoke, but it isn't surrounded by explosive fumes in the process like styrene-based resins are.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I'd bet that it's a fire hazard. Any superlight filler creates a lot of insulation, especially ones containing hollow stuff like microballoons. It's not unusual for polyester or vinylester to create a lot of heat as it hardens and if it can't go anywhere because insulation is keeping it in, it just might flash and burn. Epoxy will sometimes heat up enough that a big blob of microballoon filler will smoke, but it isn't surrounded by explosive fumes in the process like styrene-based resins are.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I'd bet that it's a fire hazard. Any superlight filler creates a lot of insulation, especially ones containing hollow stuff like microballoons. It's not unusual for polyester or vinylester to create a lot of heat as it hardens and if it can't go anywhere because insulation is keeping it in, it just might flash and burn. Epoxy will sometimes heat up enough that a big blob of microballoon filler will smoke, but it isn't surrounded by explosive fumes in the process like styrene-based resins are.

[Concordia..41]

Thanks all. We'll see how it goes today. I've got some more areas to fill and will probably go with the 406 because although no problems are obvious, the warning is there for a reason.

FWIW this is just a cosmetic repair the foredeck was built so that it held water 3/4" at the deepest spot. I didn't want to add weight to the bow so used a piece of structural foam (similar to Airex) covered with layers of mat and fabric.

The whole business was getting pretty bumpy and lumpy (my fiberglass skills are pretty lacking), so I was attempting to fair the whole business down before doing a final layer of mat.

Thanks!
- M

P.S. Thanks to Todd for the link to Sailrite a while back. The canvas projects are moving along too.

[Concordia..41]

Thanks all. We'll see how it goes today. I've got some more areas to fill and will probably go with the 406 because although no problems are obvious, the warning is there for a reason.

FWIW this is just a cosmetic repair the foredeck was built so that it held water 3/4" at the deepest spot. I didn't want to add weight to the bow so used a piece of structural foam (similar to Airex) covered with layers of mat and fabric.

The whole business was getting pretty bumpy and lumpy (my fiberglass skills are pretty lacking), so I was attempting to fair the whole business down before doing a final layer of mat.

Thanks!
- M

P.S. Thanks to Todd for the link to Sailrite a while back. The canvas projects are moving along too.

[Concordia..41]

Thanks all. We'll see how it goes today. I've got some more areas to fill and will probably go with the 406 because although no problems are obvious, the warning is there for a reason.

FWIW this is just a cosmetic repair the foredeck was built so that it held water 3/4" at the deepest spot. I didn't want to add weight to the bow so used a piece of structural foam (similar to Airex) covered with layers of mat and fabric.

The whole business was getting pretty bumpy and lumpy (my fiberglass skills are pretty lacking), so I was attempting to fair the whole business down before doing a final layer of mat.

Thanks!
- M

P.S. Thanks to Todd for the link to Sailrite a while back. The canvas projects are moving along too.

[StevenBauer]

What ever happened to those latest Sarah photos you promised? smile.gif Did I miss them or were you just teasing us? :D

Steven

[StevenBauer]

What ever happened to those latest Sarah photos you promised? smile.gif Did I miss them or were you just teasing us? :D

Steven

[StevenBauer]

What ever happened to those latest Sarah photos you promised? smile.gif Did I miss them or were you just teasing us? :D

Steven

[Concordia..41]

Tonight. I promise!

[Concordia..41]

Tonight. I promise!

[Concordia..41]

Tonight. I promise!

[ssor]

I googled west 410 and the best I could find was that it may inhibit the cure of ester resins. Also it is heat sensitive, swelling when used on deck under dark paints.

[ssor]

I googled west 410 and the best I could find was that it may inhibit the cure of ester resins. Also it is heat sensitive, swelling when used on deck under dark paints.

[ssor]

I googled west 410 and the best I could find was that it may inhibit the cure of ester resins. Also it is heat sensitive, swelling when used on deck under dark paints.

[Dan McCosh]

The 410 is some kind of thermoplastic--which softens in hot sunlight. It could well interact with polyesters, vinyls, etc. If it hardens, I would guess it is OK. It also could end up stiff and hard, rather than light and sandable, if the vinylester reacts with the plastic. It's generally not good for decks due to the issue with softening--microballoons are better. I've used several pounds of the stuff fairing the rudder.

[Dan McCosh]

The 410 is some kind of thermoplastic--which softens in hot sunlight. It could well interact with polyesters, vinyls, etc. If it hardens, I would guess it is OK. It also could end up stiff and hard, rather than light and sandable, if the vinylester reacts with the plastic. It's generally not good for decks due to the issue with softening--microballoons are better. I've used several pounds of the stuff fairing the rudder.

[Dan McCosh]

The 410 is some kind of thermoplastic--which softens in hot sunlight. It could well interact with polyesters, vinyls, etc. If it hardens, I would guess it is OK. It also could end up stiff and hard, rather than light and sandable, if the vinylester reacts with the plastic. It's generally not good for decks due to the issue with softening--microballoons are better. I've used several pounds of the stuff fairing the rudder.