Sheathing a cedar planked canoe.

[Heartwood]

I recently acquired an old (25 -30 years) canoe which is built along the lines of a standard cedar and canvas canoe but without the canvas! The canoe is covered with what looks like a plastic coated fabric which is stapled to the wood at the gunwhales, stem and stern but not along the keel and is not stuck to the wood. The plastic is cracking and needs replacing. Any idea what this covering is and can I get any?
I'm considering sheathing with epoxy and fibreglass.

Heartwood

[Ron Williamson]

SWMBO's pa got his cedar-canvas Langford recovered with that stuff about 10 years ago.
It was done by Cowan Canoes,formerly of Paisley,Ontario.Last I heard,they had set up shop in Brussels,down near Wingham.I don't know if they still supply repair material for wood boats but they are worth a try.
Try www.cowancanoes.on.ca (http://www.cowancanoes.on.ca)
Where's Lombardy BTW?
Have fun
R

[hoz]

Instead of pox and glass have you considered heat shrink dacron?

[Chris Coose]

http://www.wcha.org/

I may have seen some other fabric discussed here.

Please exaust all option before attacking this craft with a plastic gown.

[bob goeckel]

i've got a 98 yr. old canoe someone sheathed in glass. it's well adhered, i wish it wasn't so it wood be easier to recanvass. :eek:

[reddog]

Heartwood:
First off,please don't glass and epoxy your canoe.This may seem like an easy solution but will shorten the life of the canoe.These canoes were designed to be taken apart and rebuilt when required.It's not uncommon to find some that were built 40 to 60 years ago still going strong.
The product you mention has a name but I can't remember what.I believe it is a vinyl and canvas product and was used on some Tremblay canoes.It is still available,but you could replace it with the standard canvas and filler.
Check out the Wood Canoe Heritage Association Site for more info and contacts.
Earl

[Wild Dingo]

Okay now this has me thinking... so as I start to make me wee lassies and just say I decide I dont want to use the epoxy and fibreglass that Mac recommends... say I want to build it as they did before all this fancy stuff came out... what would I have to do to the timber to preserve it so I get to use the canoe for the longest period?

mmmm thinking about it maybe I should be building the piccolo instead?... mmm nah Im for the quick and easy build with the canoes and from what Ive seen they are glorious gorgeous wee things that Id be flamin in awe of and not wanting to use and abuse as I am wont to do... hence the idea of leaving off the epoxy and fibreglass... I mean they stripped canoes before the advent of the poly stuff the fibreglass and epoxy etc didnt they so what did they use? and even before canvas!... Im also considering not beading and coving them either but rather planing the edges as I go... should I think make for an interesting time ;) :cool:

And Lumberdude? dont mutter bear grease either mate cause thats flamin impossible to find down here! :rolleyes:

[Fitz]

The old canadian strip canoes were tightly planked and constructed with rot resistant cedar and then varnished inside and out. The wood canvas canoes were often treated with hot linseed oil on the exterior prior to canvassing and also varnished on the inside.

[Paul Scheuer]

Think of the traditional wood canvass canoe as being built like a basket using thin strips, with just slightly more structure than it takes to hold the shape. The canvas cover (as an improvement over birch bark) does all of the waterproofing. The relatively flexible structure does not do well with a rigid coating.

Conversely, other more rigid structures may not lend themselves to canvas covering.

Removing glass from an old canoe is usually done with heat and patience. Check the folks at WCHA.org. Many have done it and can help with the details.

[Wild Dingo]

So your saying just straight up varnish inside and out will do Fitz? curiously interesting

No dont get me wrong mate Im not disbelieving its just really interesting to me about only varnishing them... the curious part kicks in when I think of someone in the backwoods building a stripper without access to varnish... now how does that fella get ahold of the varnish!... thats were my comment to lumberdude came in.

[Dan Lindberg]

Shane,

Strippers w/glass inside and out and W/C and All wood canoes are very different beasts.

The old ones are designed such that the wood provides the strength and the varnish or canvas the waterproof layer.

On the "new" glassed strippers, the glass provides the strength and the wood is just a core, similar to foam in commercial glass canoes. (Some folks will argue this but if you don't add ribs to a (non-glassed) stripper it will fall apart.) And you must have the glass on both sides or again you'll have no strength.

Build it as Mac describes and you'll have a good boat.

Dan

[Wild Dingo]

ahhh now Dan I probably will stick to Macs ways as in the book... but I was wondering and when I get to wondering I just have to ask the questions!... I mean if it keeps me away from that fibreglass and epoxy stuff more power to it! ;) ...Actually it was just that that had got me curious Im a bit of an avoidance freak when it comes to those two objects nothing against their qualities to do the job... I just know from past experience that fibreglass can give me one hell of a skin problem so Im tryin to be problem solving before the problem needs solving... and am thinking of ways of avoiding having to cover myself from top to toe whenever I go to work on them! I do get hot here at times!

So to further the discourse and further my education... how thick a strip are we talking about not including Macs here cause I know his but for the older style prior to canvas and such... what were the sizes of the strips used? surely not the lightweight thin strips now used?... sooo Im thinking if one were to strip one and use ribs {spaced how far apart?} then slather the bejeezus out of it all with varnish... that should do the trick... eerrr right?

I am actually quite curious about this now :rolleyes: The piccolo though stunningly beautiful seems an aweflaminful lot of fiddlefaddleing around which is why I got ahold of Macs designs {and now having seen the plans for piccolo I am sure I will avoid it! man thats a lota work! :D } so Im wondering if that can be changed somehow to give a good solid long lasting good looking canoe without the fiddlefaddling or necessity for fibreglassing and epoxying the whole shamozzle!...

yes they would no longer be the wee lassies that Mac describes but they would used as the basis of something different no? Or are you saying that if I dont stick to Macs method I wont have a good boat? ...simple curiousity mate no offence intended just cant find better words! :rolleyes:

[Russell Sova]

Didn't they used to pitch everything in the old days? And I know I read somewhere that a type of varnish was available even in the 18th century. Also, I read of a guy who crossed the Atlantic in a painted canvass boat. They used layer after layer of old oil paint to seal it. It works until it gets grounded I suppose.

[Dan Lindberg]

Shane,

I don't off hand know the dimensions of the All Wood canoes, but a typical W/C has 5/16" thick by about 2-2.25" white cedar ribs spaced about 3" apart. They are then covered with 3/32" white or red cedar planking of various widths.

If you want to build an all wood canoe, get more info on Rushton and the Peterbough builders, you might start by asking the folks on the WCHA BB.

Dan

[Todd Bradshaw]

There were several manufacturers who built longitudinal cedar strip canoes with no canvas and with lots of ribs on the inside. Peterborough is probably the best known. Ribs are usually half-round, fairly small (5/8" -3/4" wide) and spaced 2"-3" apart. They usually run under an internal keelson. Here is a link to a recent photo of a Gordon cedar strip being restored by David Hobdon and posted on the WCHA forum.
http://forums.wcha.org/attachment.php?s=eecd4f1fe855b7d162dc65b978b09442&postid=7134

There were even a few non-canvased models called "cedar-ribbed canoes" where the "strips" went around the hull, rather than being fore-and-aft. In any case, these types of boats take some serious skill and precise work to produce and most people would probably find the process ten times more difficult than building a modern wood strip/fiberglass boat.

[TonyH]

Dingo, you're not crazy mate (not entirely, anyway :D ), I've been wondering much the same thing as it happens. A little while ago Todd Bradshaw was kind enough to send me the drawings and offsets for the little "Sairy Gamp" canoe, which I've now just about finished lofting. My original intention was to build it using standard strip techniques (much the same as Wee Lassie) but I'm not very keen on all that fibreglassing either. The drawings (taken from the original Sairy Gamp, still in existence) indicate that it was built lapstrake planked with cedar planks 5/32" thick. That is THIN - about 4 mm! There are lots of ribs too, of course. My gut feeling is that edge-glued strips would need to be at least - hmmmm.... 3/8" (= about 11 mm) perhaps? - to have anything like minimum acceptable strength without being glassed (this would depend to some extent on the properties of the timber used for the strips, of course), perhaps with a moderate number of ribs included for added strength. How would this compare for weight, I wonder?

No doubt much also depends on the intended use. For whitewater use, glassing makes sense to give better impact and abrasion resistance. But for paddling on smooth water (lakes, estuaries etc) does it really matter? I don't think so.

Any thoughts folks?

Re the original topic of the thread (sorry for the hijack), I also vote for avoiding the glass/epoxy "fix". Not only is it probably not a good idea (for the reasons explained above) it's also doing an injustice to the craftsmanship that went into the canoe to begin with. 2 cents please! tongue.gif

[Steve Lansdowne]

I believe that the type canoe Todd referred to is the lower one on the front cover of CanoeCraft.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Yep