epoxy filler for deck bung?

[Robert1]

I'm bunging slightly out of round holes with a 1/8"- 3/16" teak bung on an older deck. Adding a filler to the epoxy seems like a good idea. The tech at West suggested 407, someone else 403. What say ye? Thanks.

[JimConlin]

Any of that stuff will be OK structurally. 407 might be pretty close in color.

[pcford]

The epoxy will leave a ring around the plug. You can get a plug cutter that produces slightly tapered plugs. I would try that before using the epoxy. I believe Veritas makes them.

I would be inclined to use Weldwood instead of the epoxy, if you possible can. The next guy will treat your memory more kindly when he has to take out the plugs. If you have to use epoxy then...you have to use it. There are graver sins.

[ssor]

Put a drop of beeswax in the screw slots before you glue the bungs in and the next guy will be able to get a screwdriver into the slots without a fight.

[ 08-21-2005, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: ssor ]

[Jay Greer]

I second the motion on Weldwood for deck plugs rather than epoxy. Once the fastening corrodes a little it plays hell with epoxy resin and makes a green mess. Clogged screw slots can be cleaned out effectively with a jewler's graver. With this tool, you can, literaly carve a new slot.

[pcford]

Put a drop of beeswax in the screw slots before you glue the bungs in and the next guy will be able to get a screwdriver into the slots without a figh Straights slots!!!?? We don't use no steeenking straight slots!

Friends don't let friends use straight slots.

[Jay Greer]

Mira hombre, slotted where they show y Square drive where they don't show bueno! Pheelip's y Read & Prinze son para amateures! Son no Buenos!

[pcford]

Mira hombre, slotted where they show y Square drive where they don't show bueno! Pheelip's y Read & Prinze son para amateures! Son no Buenos! Ya got that right, amigo.

Hardware prewar = slotted
Hardware postwar = Pheelips

[Scott Rosen]

I'd hate to have to remove square drive screws that were bunged with epoxy.

[Gary E]

Hardware prewar WHICH WAR ???

[Jay Greer]

I don use no stinking epoxy.

[Ian McColgin]

Epoxy will leave a ring. Tapered bungs will emerge. Get a bung cutter and drill that are sized to each other so you can plant proper bungs.

If you need to glue a bung in, you're working sloppy with poor tools.

A little bit of almost anything, wax, ancient bad varnish mixed with gloops, and best of al shellack, can be put on the very (rounded side) bottom of the bung before tapping home.

Slotted screws are the only way for two reasons.

Firstly, a slotted screw gives better surface area. This is critical in removal where some real Norweegan steam is needed but is also needed in insertion if you're using oak frames and a not overlarge pilot.

Second, as mentioned above, only slotted screws can be cleaned for extraction.

Modern variations on phillips, star and square drive are nice for driving in drywall screws and such. For hanging a plank or putting down decking, you really want to go with a brace holding the screw driver for a slotted screw so you can feel when it's landed right and not strip the wood at all.

[Ken Hutchins]

What Ian stated very well,
Get a bung cutter and drill that are sized to each other so you can plant proper bungs.

If you need to glue a bung in, you're working sloppy with poor tools.
I've seen all too many references to using epoxy to fill gaps from poor working methods. Use the proper skills and tools and eliminate the epoxy, or to put it another way do the job the right way.

[Scott Rosen]

Ian is right, for most circumstances, but not all.

It's easy to get a good friction fit when you are fastening 1" planking, and can countersink deeply. It's not so easy if you're trying to countersink and bung 3/8" lumber. I have yet to get a bung to stay in a 3/16" hole without some kind of goo, even if it's just varnish.

[scepticus]

Originally posted by pcford:
Straights slots!!!?? We don't use no steeenking straight slots!

Friends don't let friends use straight slots.WoodenBoat School uses straight slots all the time. Better for later repair.

[ 08-22-2005, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: scepticus ]

[pcford]

Epoxy will leave a ring. Tapered bungs will emerge. Get a bung cutter and drill that are sized to each other so you can plant proper bungs.

If you need to glue a bung in, you're working sloppy with poor tools.

A little bit of almost anything, wax, ancient bad varnish mixed with gloops, and best of al shellack, can be put on the very (rounded side) bottom of the bung before tapping home.

Slotted screws are the only way for two reasons.

Firstly, a slotted screw gives better surface area. This is critical in removal where some real Norweegan steam is needed but is also needed in insertion if you're using oak frames and a not overlarge pilot.

Second, as mentioned above, only slotted screws can be cleaned for extraction.

Modern variations on phillips, star and square drive are nice for driving in drywall screws and such. For hanging a plank or putting down decking, you really want to go with a brace holding the screw driver for a slotted screw so you can feel when it's landed right and not strip the wood at all. I heard of a professional boatbuilder from the west coast that was visiting a professional boatbuilder in the northeast of this country. He was surprised that the yard still used straight slots. He asked if they used Reed and Prince or square drive. The east coat boatwright said yes he had seen Reed and Prince screws. "And what about square drive." His eyes narrowed and he allowed that he had heard of them but had never seen one or used one.

The northeast kept wooden boatbuilding alive because of a combination of conservatism and low wages. Kept things alive, but not necessarily good for apprehending advances in the trade.

The careful reader will notice that all the writers touting the superiority of straight slots are from the northeast.

To go through the errors as stated in the quote above:
1. "Tapered bungs will emerge." A mahogany runabout has a few thousand plugs. And I've done a lot of them in the last 30 years. I have never noticed any problem with the tapered plugs "emerging." I don't think he knows what a Veritas tapered plug cutter is.
2. "If you need to glue a bung in, you're working sloppy with poor tools." Plugs in runabouts ain't going to hang in because of inertia. To begin with, the planking is 3/8" to begin with. The flare in the forward sheer plank areas of a Chris for example necessitates shaving that down more. When you are working with original planks, the bung holes are sloppy. You have to deal with it. And yes, if the screw head is less than 1/8 you may have to use epoxy.
3."Firstly, a slotted screw gives better surface area. This is critical in removal where some real Norweegan steam is needed but is also needed in insertion if you're using oak frames and a not overlarge pilot." Surface area? I have no idea what this means. I _do_ know this, there is no comparison between the ability to drive a straight slot and a square drive without slipping. Are you really suggesting driving screws with a brace? Check for snugness, yes, but driving the screw with a brace? Have you refastened a boat? There are thousands of screws. You need mechanical help to do it efficiently. And straight slots are pretty much worthless with power drivers. They easily slip out of the driver. That's why Chris went to R+P in 1941. Square drives are an equivalent quantum leap forward. If you are a hobbyist wanting to do things the old-timey way it was done in 1905, well fine, go to it. If you trying to drive screws professionally or just efficiently you will use square drives. (for non-visible uses, as noted above in the thread)
4. "Second, as mentioned above, only slotted screws can be cleaned for extraction." Funny, I clean square drives out all the time. Those that say it is impossible evidently have not tried.

Finally, I have no hope of convincing those that are set on using straight slots. They have their prejudices and are afraid to change. However, for you newbys reading this, try square drives. The driver positively grips the screw. You can hold a square driver up and the screw will hold on by friction. Try square drives if you have not before; compare with straight slots. There is no doubt which you will choose.

Again, friends don't let friends use straight slots.

[pcford]

WoodenBoat School uses straight slots all the time. And as the Godfather said: "What does that tell you?"

[Scott Rosen]

pcford,

You make some good points. If you are using a power driver, slotted screws will slip, torque out, and bugger up the wood. Like you, I find square drive the easiest to use with a power driver.

I have never had to clean epoxy out of a square drive screw. It seems difficult, to say the least. You say you've done it and it's easy. Exactly how do do this? I like square drive screws and would use them if I thought they would be easy to remove after being glued.

I don't build boats for a living. I guess a power driver, with a good torque setting and square drive screws would be the fastest way to install a lot of fasteners in one run. But if you're like most of us amateurs, the few minutes saved doesn't make much of a difference, especially for plank-on-frame, where fitting the plank takes so much more time than the actual fastening, or for other small jobs. Personally, I can work as fast with a brace as I can with a power driver, and with a lot less fatigue. But as I said, saving a few minutes here and there isn't a priority for me.

[pcford]

I have never had to clean epoxy out of a square drive screw. It seems difficult, to say the least. You say you've done it and it's easy. Exactly how do do this? Peck it out with a scratch awl. Tap awl with a light hammer if needed.

I suppose you could use a heated driver but I've never had to.

[ssor]

Doan you think that wax mite be easier to remove than epoxy. :D

[pcford]

Doan you think that wax mite be easier to remove than epoxy. S'pose so. How do you get one drop and no more into the head of a screw on the side of a boat?

[ssor]

Just nip off a little chunk and pack it in. tongue.gif

[Robert1]

Being new to this board, I find it interesting that someone can comment on both the quality of my work and tools without visiting my shop. Thanks for the replies.

[Ian McColgin]

It's true that other than slotted screws are fast faser fastest to install with a power driver. It's also true that gluing in bungs is done on production boats, especially in hull planking and most especially in thin planking where the bungs will be shallow and where the benefits of rapid mass production outweight most everything. This will not look right in unvarnished teak.

Like my own initial response, that does not quite answer the question which I reread to finally realize he's got out of round holes.

I actually did a repair like this where the owner wanted epoxy. He'd already planted a mix of phillips head and slotted screws. Lots of out of round bung holes and bungs that fit sloppily in. He'd bunged mayber 50 before giving me the job.

I found it easiest to remove each screw and aim an auger with a longish pilot screw at the hole. That pretty much centered it by the time the cutters on the side of the auger started marking the circumference. Once I had a nice hole, easy enough to bang a bung in. It was a little thin and he really wanted epoxy, so I carefully painted just a hint of unthickened slow curing epoxy inside and well down in each hole as I went. That way, no epoxy at the surface and no visible ring.

The job went fast enough that I removed his bungs and redid them. Next day I came upon him messily grinding off the tops of the bungs. Showed him the virtues of a sharp chisel.

So sure, if the deck is really so worn down that there's not much bung grip, like depth less than diameter, then put a dab of glue in the bottom. But rebore those holes and use a righteously fitting bung.

Edited to add: For holes too deep to center with the auger's tip, I had a block of wood with a hole made by a brad tip drill of the same size. I had a pin a tad smaller, suitable for fitting in the old holes. Pin in hole, drop block over. Fiddle it right. Pull pin holding block still and drill using the block as a guide. Easy and fast. The bung hole is big enough that it need not be exactly centered on the screw head. It's just that in the abensence of anything for the pilot tip to grab, you just to keep the drill still enough for a clean outer wall to the new hole.

G'luck.

[ 08-23-2005, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Ian McColgin ]

[pcford]

I found it easiest to remove each screw and aim an auger with a longish pilot screw at the hole. That pretty much centered it by the time the cutters on the side of the auger started marking the circumference. ....(snips)If I understand correctly, your method will create a plug larger than its neighbors. In my humble opinion, not much makes a boat look old and tired more than a mix of plug sizes.

Plugs should be uniform. If that requires using epoxy, so be it.

Oh, and this is kind of important. I believe plugs should always be the smallest possible size. Amateurs seem to want to accentuate the plugs by using huge plugs. This looks clunky to my eye. A Fuller countersink will have a properly sized countersink. WARNING: For #10 screws, use a Fuller #913. This will bore a 3/8 countersink instead of the 7/16 which a Fuller #10 will bore.

[Ian McColgin]

I absolutely agree that plugs of equal size look best. Easy enough to redo all plugs either right away or over time.

Second best would be clean plugs of two sizes.

Absolutely worst would be round plugs in oblong holes with glue.

Owner's choice.