spruce for lapstrake construction?

[petey]

I am going to be building a 15' lapstrake canoe and I thought the material of choice would be spruce however I can't seem to find it in my locale. I know cedar or redwood can be used but I thought that traditionally spruce was used for weight and strength. This is my first time building so I am open to any information that may be out there by any experts willing to share.

[Venchka]

Where are you? What kind of clear cedar can you get? We beat redwood to death recently. The consensus from those who know wood well said, "Forget redwood." Red or white cedar have been the small light boat planking material of choice since forever. John Gardner specifies spruce for framing and cedar for planking in many of his small boats. Can you get yellow or Port Orford cedar for structural framing?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Kermit]

Spruce? Which spruce? Makes a difference.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Traditionally canoes,whether lapstrake or feather lap, used Northern White Cedar. It isn't cedar at all but an arborvitae. When supplies of this stuff started to dwindle before WWI the big kahuna of canoes, J. Henry Rushton, went to Western Red Cedar which was not as ideal but was readily available and would be off into the future.
You could build using any wood you liked but you will pay a big penalty in weight, some in workability, and resistence to rot.
The spruces are a big family and I don't think it's generally possible to determine if you are getting a variety that is ideal for boatbuilding.
The exception is Sitka Spruce which is very pricey in clear lengths.
If you plan to portage this boat I would cross all heavy woods off the list.
And if you're going to do this in glued lapstrake okuome plywood is the way to go.
Charlie

[Dan Hall]

There are only a few retailers I would trust with Sitka Spruce. Otherwise you might end of with some hemlock in the woodpile.

[petey]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Where are you? What kind of clear cedar can you get? We beat redwood to death recently. The consensus from those who know wood well said, "Forget redwood." Red or white cedar have been the small light boat planking material of choice since forever. John Gardner specifies spruce for framing and cedar for planking in many of his small boats. Can you get yellow or Port Orford cedar for structural framing?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[petey]

I am in the Chicagoland area. The only spruce I could find is a framing(house)grade, I would have to pick through it to find anything clear enough. White cedar around here is virtually non-existent so ordering out of state is my only option. One more question, is flatsawn okay or should i use quartersawn?

[Bob Smalser]

Never been there except passing thru, but I know somebody in Chicago stocks some flavor of cedar or cypress.

Spruce likes to rot. Cedar is generally softer but I much prefer dented cedar when my boats get old than the rot pockets spruce gets around the fasteners.

[ 06-01-2005, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[David W Pratt]

Spruce is a PITA to plane, very stringy.

[petey]

I can get all the red cedar I want, the only white I have seen were shingles. I'll have to check with my local lumberyard about availlability. Thanks

[Bruce Taylor]

Red cedar will do nicely for planking a lapstrake canoe.

White ash is traditional for frames, thwarts & gunwales.

What are you building, exactly?

[Don Kurylko]

For the record:
Western Red Cedar weighs 24 lbs./cu.ft.
White Cedar weighs 22 lbs./cu.ft.
Sitka Spruce weighs 27 lbs./cu.ft.

Spruce is not lighter than Cedar. It is stiffer and thus ideal for spars and oars, but it is rot prone and not recommended for planking.

[Bob Smalser]

You can make the entire canoe from Western Red Cedar, less the thwarts, breasthooks and maybe the inwales.

Depends some on what you have to pay for these woods....if you have access to nice, clear, closegrained cedar, then use it. If your local spruce is cheaper and you can cut around knots and defects, then frames, inwales, thwarts, etc can come from it. Drip red lead or copper bottom paint into your fastener holes, prime with red lead and paint and it'll hold up very well if you maintain the canoe.

Plywood is a possibility, of course.....but it's likely more expensive, especially with the recent price increases of epoxy....and it's all very unpleasant to work in comparison to real wood.

[ 06-01-2005, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

For the record;
Never never,never say, "white cedar" in canoe building conversations. It is the most easily misunderstood term imagineable.
The good stuff is NORTHERN White Cedar.
NORTHERN White Cedar is "thuja occidentalis". It is an arborvitae. It is the holy grail of wooden canoe building. It is rot resistant. It steams beautifully. It is lighter than any compeating wood. Rushton used it until supplies got short. The reason supplies got short is the tree has a tapered trunk, it grows only in suitable environments (read swampy), it is extremely slow growing and being an evergreen it has potential for making maximum knots. A tree good enough and big enough to get a lapstrake plank out, if available, will put a hole in your off-shore bank account.
If you find "white cedar" it is probably Atlantic White Cedar, "Chamaecypris thyoides" or some other pretender. This stuff is no better than OK, used by many quality builders, but does not possess all the good qualities of NORTHERN White Cedar.
If you would like to see a whole bunch of NORTHERN White Cedar planks go to the Woodenboat School. They have a whole rack of big beautiful,wide boards. I think they have hired a forest dwelling gnome who roams New Brunswick and other wild places in search of suitable trees.
Charlie

[Bruce Taylor]

As Bob says, use whatever you can get (within reason). Rot resistance isn't always a big concern with these little boats (which tend to be stored dry). I used a fair bit of spruce on my Piccolo (for laminated stem & stern posts, knees and sheer clamps)...along with Northern white cedar, W. red cedar, walnut, cherry, padauk and mahogany. Five years later, it still looks fine (despite being stored outside, much of the summer).

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid20/pecbdeea07239d9914ae48e0123f43f24/fdb934f8.jpg

[ 06-01-2005, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[petey]

Originally posted by Bruce Taylor:
Red cedar will do nicely for planking a lapstrake canoe.

White ash is traditional for frames, thwarts & gunwales.

What are you building, exactly?

[petey]

Iam building a 15'lapstrake canoe designed by Walter Simmons. I saw it in an American Woodworker mag a few years ago and thought it would be a good beginer boat.

[Bruce Hooke]

If you do want Northern White Cedar then you might want to check out http://www.woodfinder.com

Do a search on "Northern White Cedar" with your zip code. There do seem to be some suppliers of it out in the midwest.

[petey]

Thanks for that, another reason to keep me at this screen. cool site,nothing in my area

[Venchka]

You might be in luck. From Woodfinder...

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Big blanks for carvers
Slabs for harvest tables
Northern White Cedar
Old Growth White Pine
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Ornamental Woods like Buckthorn or Fruit Trees

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Originally posted by Dan Hall:
There are only a few retailers I would trust with Sitka Spruce. Otherwise you might end of with some hemlock in the woodpile.Good advice.

"Aircraft quality silver spruce" is very nice stuff, and costs a fortune.

[Bruce Taylor]

Iam building a 15'lapstrake canoe designed by Walter SimmonsSimmons wrote a useful little book on lapstrake canoes. Pick up a copy, if you don't have it already:

http://www.duck-trap.com/canoes.html

Also have a look at W. P. Stephens's classic Canoe and Boatbuilding: a Complete Manual for Amateurs. Daniel MIller (Dragonfly Canoe Works) has posted it as an e-book:

http://dragonflycanoe.com/stephens/

Sitka would be a pointless extravagance on a boat of this kind.

[GROOVY]

Wonder if vertical grain douglas fir would work?

[petey]

Originally posted by Bruce Taylor:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Iam building a 15'lapstrake canoe designed by Walter SimmonsSimmons wrote a useful little book on lapstrake canoes. Pick up a copy, if you don't have it already:

http://www.duck-trap.com/canoes.html

Also have a look at W. P. Stephens's classic Canoe and Boatbuilding: a Complete Manual for Amateurs. Daniel MIller (Dragonfly Canoe Works) has posted it as an e-book:

http://dragonflycanoe.com/stephens/

Sitka would be a pointless extravagance on a boat of this kind.</font>[/QUOTE]

[petey]

I do have it, he suggested geting it when I got the plans. I'll have to check out the other one. Looks like I'll use Northern white cedar for the planks. Thanks to all.