Larry Pardey versus Wood Epoxy

[Dragons]

Hello,
A New member here so go easy one me.
I am a proud owner of a custom built 26 foot cruising boat, constructed in wood/epoxy/glass i.e "sheath Strip" construction - and now I have just finished reading a piece by Larry Pardey )of Serrafyn/Taleisin fame) whereby he practically says that my damned boat is going to near melt in the tropics!
I am have been sailing for about 5 years in FRP boats, but am new to knowing much about the construction side of the scene.
Is Larry just an 'ole stick in the mud traditionalist - or his he right and if I spend too much time time in the Tropics (which is why I got the bleedin' Boat)then my beautiful boat is going to melt before my eyes...... someone please help.
Thanks

[ 01-27-2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Dragons ]

[On Vacation]

Well, Several issues play into your boat melting away. What color is your hull? Does it have rib framing in it? Is the boat skinned outside of your strips? What type of fiberglass do you have skinned on your boat? You may get some print through, under darker colors, and less on the lighter color boats. I don't know your boat. But if you have good fasteners, and properly built, the worse that can happen, IMHO, is some glass problems. Epoxy strips will still have fasteners naile edge ways into each strip keeping the structual hull parts together.

NOTE: THIS IS ONLY AN OPINION, FROM A FEW WORDS IN PRINT. TAKE IT FOR WHAT YOU PAID FOR IT. BUT TAKE A LOOK AT THE LINK PROVIDE TO YOU, BELOW. These boats are built all of the time, and runs very quick, like forty knots, some of them, in heavy weather.

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb. php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008741 (http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008741)

[ 01-27-2004, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[Dragons]

Oyster: "Sheath Strip" using MacNaughton Scantlings rules - a variation on Lindsay Lords original Scantlings Rule for Strip Plankled hulls, glassed using biaxial both inside the hull and outside. No Frames or Stringers - bar the engine bed stringers. (this written from the survey report).
And thanks for the link smile.gif

[On Vacation]

Most strip planks are nailed edge grain, as you see here in this shot. In the past six months, I think there was a discussion concerning a boat built with strip plank and no frames here. I can't find it right now. The boat was in Australia, I think and the fellow was going to change the interior layout. I think that boat was somwhere around that length, too. You must have furniture and foward bulkheads as the strength in your boat.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid14/p0c7d76f1748923b2166c1bb3dbb72096/fddcae90.jpg

[Dragons]

Oh and here is alink to the design.
http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/penny.htm

I bought this boat via a yard who were selling it on behalf of a client of theirs. His dreams changed I guess.
Thanks

[Meerkat]

Larry Pardey makes a big deal out of the fact that epoxy can go soft at temperatures as low as 140F. A dark hull in the tropics in full sun might be at risk, but if it's a light colored hull, it's not all that likely.

There are ways to increase the heat resistance - some epoxies have a higher "soft" point (some commercial heat cured ones are good to 300F, but that's hardly practical for amateur construction), but higher temperature epoxies also tend to be more brittle. Another option is an aluminum oxide impregnated thermal barrier coat and, on decks, paint or wood (I hear walking on hot wood is a lot more bearable than walking on hot paint...).

Exploring http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html might give you some good ideas.

[Dragons]

Hull is Off-White.

[George Roberts]

Dragons ---

I have looked at MacNaughton's scantlings and I have looked at that particular design. His scantlins appear to be reasonable. He does specify West epoxy in his designs. (I hope I got the brand name right.)

MacNaughton has scantlings for wood boats with fiberglass faces and scantlings for fiberglass boats with wood cores. Those scantlings are different.

So there are some issues here. Is the epoxy West or not? Are the scantlings for wood or fiberglass boats?

As far as temperature and the scantlings go perhaps you should contact MacNaughton.

[Dragons]

Not sure if West System or not.
Is West the Best? Pardon the poetry. smile.gif

[ 01-27-2004, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Dragons ]

[Meerkat]

Read the Epoxy Products site linked above for some (possibly biased) opinions on various epoxy brands, It makes a lot of sense to me, but I don't really know enough to know whether or not he's sandbagging on the subject.

[Allen Foote]

West IS BEST!! and Pardey ain't god.

[paladin]

of all the glass/ply/epoxy boats in the Caribbean...I would worry most with a W.E.S.T. built boat as there are some issues with the epoxy becoming brittle over time...8-10 years...of maybe two dozen boats that I have seen perhaps 4 or 5 were starting to show signs of the stress at the glue line, but the boats had been in the tropics 5-6 plus years and at least two had dark painted "stripes" or designs on seams or joins where there were heavy timber and ply joints....

[On Vacation]

In strip plank, the amount of glue in the seam, is just for sealing the planks really, if fasteners are used edge grain. The biaxall used in this application, appears to be a structual part of the hull, with no intregal framing in the boat. This can be added, even a small amount, if it would give comfort to you, also. Color is the key to heat in the tropics. It appears that you will not have to deal with that issue.

In South Florida, many fishing boat makers have been building cold moulded, which relies on multiple layers of thin woods laid on a diagonal flat ways, held together with nothing more than epoxy. Something must be going on to allow for years of the same types of construction.

[ 01-28-2004, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[Ian McColgin]

Keep her white. Keep her well vented. For your own live-aboard comfort make a full length awning.

Global warming will have to proceed some before your boat will melt.

Nice choise, by the way. Hope we cross wakes some day.

[George Roberts]

It does not matter if West is the best or not. McNaughton's scantling are very specific. he specifies West epoxy. He even lists the acceptable woods and cloth weights.

My comment was directed toward the claim of "'Sheath Strip' using MacNaughton Scantlings rules" from a survey report)

If I recall (the scantlings booklet are in my shop d I am lazy), "glassed using biaxial" is not in MacNaughton's rules. He uses 10oz plain weave in his scantlings.

I expect the surveyer ment the boat is build equivalent to MacNaughton's Scantlings. I expect it will do fine in the heat.

[Gary E]

Oyster,
In a post you said..
"In strip plank, the amount of glue in the seam, is just for sealing the planks really, if fasteners are used edge grain. The biaxall used in this application, appears to be a structual part of the hull, with no intregal framing in the boat."

Refering to the photo you posted above, it shows what apears to me as a lot of heavy duty frame work.
Is this not part of the completed hull?

Is it the jig or fixture that the hull is built on?

What size strips are those?

And the heavy frame at the most left side of the photo seems to have a smaller thickness rib sorta looking thing, what is that?

No framing at all?

Thanks
G

[ 01-28-2004, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Ian Wright]

Originally posted by Allen Foote:
Pardey ain't god.Ideed he is not, but he is His messinger on wooden boat matters.

IanW smile.gif

[Stiletto]

Ian, wouldnt it be more accurate to say that he is the messenger on traditional wooden boat matters. tongue.gif

[On Vacation]

Originally posted by Gary E:
Oyster,
Refering to the photo you posted above, it shows what apears to me as a lot of heavy duty frame work.
Is this not part of the completed hull?

Is it the jig or fixture that the hull is built on?

What size strips are those?

And the heavy frame at the most left side of the photo seems to have a smaller thickness rib sorta looking thing, what is that?

No framing at all?

Thanks

Ghttp://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid15/pa37c8c64ee67c5aa41aff79cef4ffac1/fde67ef4.jpg

The boat is traditionally framed. I take it that the small thickness piece you are referring to is a shim on the edge of the frame. The piece on the side is a scab for tying the saddlebutt and frame together, if that is the piece you are referring to in the shot. The frame goes down to a saddle butt across to the other side, throughbolted together.

[ 01-29-2004, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

:eek: Thats a big boat.... a sportfisher Mike?

[Phil Young]

No problem. There's plenty of poxy boats, and boats with poxy components sailing around in the tropics. They aren't melting.

[Nicholas Carey]

Well…all I know is that there's theory and then there's practice.

Theory sez that cured epoxy becomes more or less plastic at about 140 ° Fahrenheit, which, theorectically, means that a sailing vessel dependent on cured epoxy for its strength, outght to come apart under load.

Then there's practice. There's an awful lot of epoxy/wood composite hulls been built over the last 40 years that beg to differ with theory.

Boots on the ground trump lofty blackboard scratchings.

But more important of all…

…And, I hate to sound like a Drip (with a capitol "D"), but …

You just [had] built a 26 foot boat In New England.

Boating industry stats suggest that your average boat in the United States is used for something like 17 days per year, and actually operated (as opposed to anchoring/tying up to the dock) for about 4-5 hours for each day of use.

Which sort of suggests that you'll [fundamentally] use your boat on Opending Day of boating season, Memorial Day, 4th of July and Labor Day, and maybe another 10 days worth of holiday over the course of the year.

Are you really planning on taking your 26 foot boat from New England to the tropics?

My (admittedly somewhat limited) experience on 25-26 foot sailboats suggests (to me anyway) that any extended cruise (e.g., more than 1 or 2 weeks) is likely to stress the limits of all on board…unless you're on really good terms with them (if you get my drift :D , and I' sure you do.)

My 2 centimes' worth.

[ 01-30-2004, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

[paul oman]

Epoxies have what is known as a "T sub G" - glass transition temp. where they begin to soften a bit. That is about 120-150 F depending upon the epoxy. When cooled down they will harden back up. An example is the hot mug rings you seen in epoxy covered bar tops.

Most higher temp epoxies require a post cure (second curing) at about 150 degrees F for a few hours. Until them, their T sub g is often about 120 F, afterwards it might be 180 or 200 F.

A bit of temp softening is not a crisis assuming there is wood and fiberglass cloth also holding the boat together.

Technical info aside, guys, there are thousands and thousands of epoxy boats all over the world - have any of you every heard of one melting in the sunlight? Even a poorly proven case would have become popular folklore repeated as a warning to everyone ever mentioning the desire to build a boat... (Unless of course, you believe in the "epoxy" conspiracy theory that we epoxy folks would hush such talk, but that's what happens from watching too many X Files reruns)!

cheers

paul

[Keith Wilson]

A bit of temperature softening is a wonderful thing when you're trying to clean up drips. Get out your trusty heat gun and scraper, and Bob's yer uncle.

Honestly, I think Larry Pardey has a bit of a thing about epoxy. He has elaborate comparison charts in his book that aim to prove that resorcinol glue is superior in very way, and while the individual points are perhaps accurate, the conclusion he reaches don't seem to be quite justified by the data.

I think the only epoxy joints I would worry about failing due to heat softening are highly-stressed glue lines under constant tension, with no mechanical backup - perhaps a scarf joint in a dark-finished rubrail; something like that. White paint is a good idea.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by paul oman:
Technical info aside, guys, there are thousands and thousands of epoxy boats all over the world - have any of you every heard of one melting in the sunlight? Even a poorly proven case would have become popular folklore repeated as a warning to everyone ever mentioning the desire to build a boat...Exactly my point :D

[John B]

Anectdotal and I stress only that, I have heard of wooden masts glued with epoxy breaking down in the tropics and requiring splitting and reglueing with resorcinal. I'll try to remember and ask some of the cruising types I meet from time to time.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Somebody here doubtless has Pardey's e-mail address.

Why talk behind his back?

E-mail him this page, and see what he has to say for himself... :D

Alan

[George Roberts]

paul oman ---
You asked

"Technical info aside, guys, there are thousands and thousands of epoxy boats all over the world - have any of you every heard of one melting in the sunlight?"

You should never see it. If you place the boat in the sun and the boat is heated and cooled, you raise the softening temperature. The next time in the sun more raising. The softening temperature finally settles somewhere. (I speed the process up by using my shop heater on a boat under a plastic drop cloth.)

It is very hard to heat a mass of fiberglass and epoxy to 150 degrees in 100 degree weather. Convection keeps all but the surface relatively cool. (And most of a boat is in the water which will never see 150 degrees.

But heck, a poor bulder will blame the heat for a failure if he can.

[Aramas]

I've had several discussions with Tom MacNaughton regarding his strip-composite scantling rule. He does NOT specify particular woods - what he does do is list woods that he's familiar with and specify that a wood of similar or better structural properties be used. The engineering involved in using different woods isn't terribly complicated, so lighter woods like paulownia or even balsa could still be used consistent with the rule provided thicknesses are altered to provide the required structural strength.

Nor does he specify a particular brand of epoxy or a particular type of glass cloth. Any reputable boatbuilding epoxy will suffice, as will any type of glass cloth. In fact, if a unidirectional cloth is used he allows the use of half the specified cloth weight providing it's oriented transversely.

Rather than take basic rules as gospel, ASK the designer about the specifics.

Larry Pardey is a skilled traditional boatbuilder and an experienced sailor. He's not a designer, engineer or scientist. He's an authority on 'Traditional Boatbuilding the Larry Pardey Way', but anything else is just unsubstantiated opinion.

I've yet to even hear of a substantially built wood/epoxy composite cruising boat experiencing a structural failure that resulted in it's loss. I can't say the same about traditional wood, and production glass boats are notorious for falling apart under heavy use.

All materials exhibit 'creep' to some extent. If you put a rubber band around an object and leave it for a couple of years it will have stretched when you take it off. That's creep, and epoxy will creep more at higher temperatures than at low temperatures. Wood creeps too, and if you take off a plank that's been bent into a curve for many years it will still be curved when you take it off. If you want to get into the chemistry of materials then by all means do, but as long as a wood/epoxy composite is painted white, built to a good scantling rule and of good quality materials it will outlive the owner.

One might also consider the motives of traditional boatbuilders that advocate traditional boatbuilding methods. The more traditional boats that are built, the more work there is for traditional boatbuilders to build them and keep them afloat smile.gif

[George Roberts]

Aramas ---

I believe you made several comments my comments about Tom MacNaughton's scantlings.

I was talking about his scantlngs not his current beliefs or what he told you. If I am in error about those specfic writings, please reference those writings not other sources.

Wood core fiberglass construction and fiberglass covered wood construction (I like my terms better than his) are two phrases that describe the same construction. He has a different rule for each of those phrases and gives different engineering assumptions for each.

In particular, he lists specific woods for each type of construction. The two lists are not the same. He also allows unidirectional cloth in one but not in the other.

In his table he lists 2 10oz layers of glass for the 11 entries from 373# displacement up to 3512# of displacent. Observe no 2 layers of 6oz glass or 4 oz glass. Just 10oz glass.

Seeing this many problems I will read his scantling very narrowly. If you want to take a broader view, feel free to do so.

[Aramas]

I'm not aware of the scantlings rules you mention. As far as I know MacNaughton only offers scantling rules for carvel, sheathed strip, cold molded and glass. (http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/publishingown.htm)

The 'recommendation' for WEST System TM products in the scantling rule booklet reads like at worst a blatant plug, and at best a disclaimer. It's just to discourage the cranially vacuous from using el cheapo generic goo from the hardware department at WalMart. There are several brands of epoxy that I would use rather than WEST, which I really don't like much at all.

Regarding wood types - From 'Sheathed Strip Construction Scantlings Rule, 3rd Ed.' "Generally any good, strong, even grained, knot free softwood with good gluing characteristics could be used" (strip planking), "..or other strong easily glued wood" (Longitudinals and transvers members), etc. - not what I would describe as a 'specification'.

By definition a scantling rule only specifies a required level of structural strength and longevity, not a brand of material or species of wood. Any wood, epoxy or glass can be used provided it equals or betters the properties of the examples given in the rule. I've also used Lloyds, Germanischer Lloyd and Det Norske Veritas rules, and while they're certainly a lot more complex they all make the assumption that a vessel is being designed to a level of structural strength and longevity rather than to a specified materials list. They also allow (ie officially approve) blatant violations of the rules where the designer provides sufficient calculations and experimental results to prove that the variation meets the specified requirements.

It's interesting to note that the incidence of structural failure in commercial vessels and even owner built small craft is very low. The majority of failures occur on racing craft (where if it breaks it's too light, and if it doesn't it's too heavy) and 'economically optimised' production recreational craft, where the builders are gambling that most of their boats will be dock sailed on occasional weekends. For the most part neither racers nor production boats are build to any formal scantling rule at all. Their approach is generally either 'Lightest is Best' (racers) or 'Cheapest is Best' (production boats). Even now, most fiendishly expensive production yachts are built from polyester/glass with chopper guns! The only valid reason for that is an economic one.

On the other hand, what do I know? smile.gif

[widsith]

Hmmmm,lets see here.All I have to do is build a 22 footer,take several years to sail her around the world,build just one more boat(preferably a basic enlargement of my first boat),write a book about how I built her and I can become an"expert/God/messinger" for traditional boatbuilding?
Let us hope that the many amateur builders who build several boats to very high standards or all the professional shiprwrights,who put out first quality work year after year, don't find out about this or else there is going to be a riot in the temple!

Widsith

[paul oman]

Larry Pardey's thoughts on epoxy have been reviewed on this site in past years. Most feel he doesn't like 'epoxy' and thus discount, to some degree, this comments.

More about the epoxy mast failures: That certainly is a structural use of epoxy where a temp loss of properties might be very bad. A more likely cause is clamping too tightly and squeezing out all the 'adhesive' epoxy from the joint. This seems to be a pretty common problem. Most epoxies do not have solvents and do not penetrate into the substate. Squeeze too hard all the epoxy goes away!

Also, epoxies are generally brittle and stiff, not good if you mast flexes a bit....

paul
info@epoxyproducts.com

[Tom Lathrop]

I second Paul's opinion on the mast failure issue, assuming that it is a real case. Epoxies just don't like tight fitting joints clamped under a lot of pressure, which is just the sort of thing that most would do on a laminated mast. Most of the epoxy failures that I've seen are the result of improper ratios/mixing or too much clamping pressure.

Way back yonder, I made a large end grain cutting board for my wife and clamped the little pieces tightly to make nice glue lines. To my consternation, since I had read all the hype on epoxy, the thing fell apart soon thereafter. I remade it with Elmer's white glue (not even water resistant) and it is still in daily use over 30 years later.

My boats are built with epoxy and my cutting boards with Titebond 2. No solar heat related failures have been seen or reported by the many builders I know who build in wood/epoxy.

Pardey is certainly knowlegeable about the kind of boats he built and epoxy is probably not a good choice for the timber boats. When he steps outside his area of expertise to make general statements, he is just part of the noise, along with a few others we know of.

[ 01-31-2004, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Tom Lathrop ]

[Aramas]

Another thing that bothers me about using epoxy is that a lot of people (myself included) try to keep waste to a minimum, and are in danger of not filling joints adequately. I'm especially prone to that sort of thing when working on other peoples boats with their money.

Imo poxy should be smeared on like peanut butter on a sandwich for Elvis. Who cares what it costs? It's cheaper to waste a bit than have something fail and have to do it again.

[George Roberts]

Aramas:

You wrote

"On the other hand, what do I know? smile.gif "

Whoa, I know what that means. I have said it before. smile.gif

Have a good one. Heck, have two.

[Scott Rosen]

This has been covered a lot. Epoxy is the best choice for most of us for most purposes because we cannot provide the proper conditions for resorcinal, which requires a constant curing temp of 70F or higher, tight fitting joints and high clamping pressure. I don't know about you folks, but I can't count on 70F temps for 24 to 48 hours, and I certainly don't have confidence that all of my joints are tight enough. One thing, though, is that I'm usually pretty good at applying too much clamping pressure. ;)

I've done structural repairs with epoxy, including my mast, which have all held up well.

Certainly for boatyard repairs, epoxy rules.

[warrenH]

hi
epoxy and polyester resins have various heat deflection(or hear distortation) temperatures. These vary quite a bit depending on the product.
The heat deflection temperature is typically measured using a cured 'standard 'stick' of resin that is held horizontially and slowly heated in a controlled enviroment until a deflection is detected. Thats it! It doesen't mean it melts into a puddly on the floor one deg higher.
This test is conducted typically with pure resin, the weakest condition possible. as soon as you combine it with glass or wood or some other reinforcement it will have a much higher deflection temp.
Boats sitting still in the hot sun will get very hot espically under glass like a dash board(200+deg is easy) but they will not fall apart or melt! The surface might get a bit soft but as Paul O said will harden up on cooling.
Have you seen the effect of heat and sun on wood by the way? cracks splits,etc

Most of the boats currently sailing at the top of the high tech type are all epoxy laminates (look at the NZ black magic AC boats)..are they falling apart..well maybe a bad example but you know what I mean.

My Bigest consern though would be a delamination problem if you had a bad bond to the wood and the wood started gasing(moisture boiling and the like) but if your boat is well made as it sounds don't worry, go sailing and have fun.
w

[Frank E. Price]

Come on Aramas, don't you think you're sticking it out a bit far for such an easily debunked point?

"One might also consider the motives of traditional boatbuilders that advocate traditional boatbuilding methods. The more traditional boats that are built, the more work there is for traditional boatbuilders to build them and keep them afloat."

The motives of anyone who advocates any particular material or construction method as being the best for everyone are questionable. A lot of things enter into the decision to own a boat, and there are plenty of good reasons for removing any construction or material from a prospective buyer's short list. What's best for one sailor is reprehensible or out of reach for another. Aesthetics is just one area, for instance. A plastic coated wood boat might be the cat's meow for many, and many others might shudder at the thought. And both are right.

Frank

[ 01-31-2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Frank E. Price ]

[NormMessinger]

Right. Parey is His messenger. I am the Messinger.

Epoxy airplanes don't melt setting out in the sun in the Mohave desert IF they are painted white. If the epoxy we used on Rutan airplanes reaches the point of getting soft once, it will take even more heat to sofen it a second time, and more still a third. I'd guess there is a limit to how often this could be repeated.

How much hotter does it get in the tropics than in the Mojave Desert? Wood is a pretty good insulator. I think that is relevant to epoxy in joints.

[Paul Pless]

I have seen some coldmolded boats that went through a period of 'baking' during the post cure of the epoxy. Does anyone here have any specific information on this technique? Is this appropriate for standard epoxies (West, System3, MAS, etc), or do special formulations exist for this? What are the advantages and disadvantages?

Paul

[Aramas]

Come on Aramas, don't you think you're sticking it out a bit far for such an easily debunked point? That's what the smiley face is for. One shouldn't overestimate the importance of being earnest smile.gif

[bukuboy]

Dragon man, Yeah, your boat will probably melt sooner or later so why don't you just give it to me for free. Let me give you a piece of advice; if God were to make a cruising boat nowadays, he'd use mild steel. Regards---- Bill

[JAX]

Anectdotal and I stress only that, I have heard of wooden masts glued with epoxy breaking down in the tropics and requiring splitting and reglueing with resorcinalI have heard that as well, and from a highly experienced boatswright who learned his trade in a large, experienced Caribbean wood shop. He was adament, epoxy should never be used to glue together masts. Resorcinal was to be used. Could he have been wrong? Sure, but he said he had seen epoxy masts that had come apart. He said he had never seen a mast come apart at the glue line on resorcinal, even masts struck by lightning or damaged in collisions.

[Scott Rosen]

Originally posted by JAX:
[QUOTE] He said he had never seen a mast come apart at the glue line on resorcinal, even masts struck by lightning or damaged in collisions.I've seen a few masts glued with resorcinal that came apart at the glue line, including mine. It's pretty much a given around here that a mast glued with resorcinal can start to come apart after 20 to 30 years. Nothing lasts forever.

[Dragons]

Far out. Look what I started.
Hope I haven't frayed any friendships here!

[PeterSibley]

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is the epoxy bonding/fastening of hardware.(The system whereby you drill an oversize hole, then pour epoxy around it ) This is a great idea in normal applications, subject to stress etc, but I think a very bad idea in potentially very hot enviorments! I mean the best way to remove a bolt from epoxy is to heat it.The idea of highly stressed hardware,say chainplates or winches slowly crawling out of position on a hot summers day is not encouraging.A deck can easily get too hot to touch in mid summer here in Oz.

Just because a wooden laminate deck doesn't feel hot( or as hot as a metal deck)doesnt mean its not very hot......wood is such a good insulator that it can be very hot, easily hot enough to allow epoxy to deform.......but not easily transfer that heat to your hand the way a steel deck would.

[JimD]

From the photos I've seen Paul Gartside painted his Surprise black, or close to it. Guess he won't be sailing south till the butter melts :D

[buhmkin]

Well, and I think Surprise cruises north from here.

This epoxy vs. Larry Pardey question's a hoot, but one should have read Chappelle and then Our Brothers Gougeon, and become pretty familiar with each before deciding that what L.P. has to say about epoxy is relevant really only to L.P. and the Mrs. L.P. It was suggested earlier that we contact L.P. himself on the matter. Or we could simply have read their books and seen them at Port Townsend this year and maybe had about enough of this 'Che Gueverre'boatbuilder pipe smoke. If we have to have an opinion on epoxy, and many of us do, let it be informed by those who know of which they write.

Now as for Our Brothers, who give us their epoxy and tell us the history of it and what is to be done with it, we would all be best off to not lump them in with the riff-raff of the 'congealed snot' racket. When you buy West you get a product that comes with a legacy and a bible, to boot. If you use epoxy a lot, you are obliged by good sense to read The Book end to end, life's long, there's time for it, and Pardey too, if you must.

And as for mast seams, I just went through this on the K-38. You can spline the seams with smoodge, but you sure as smoke cannot have a bright stick afterward. UV (epoxy's true nemesis, as opposed to heat) ate a fat quarter inch into the seams of our box spruce mast. That much of the seam was routed out and splined the full length. That's one reality of the mast seam question. All out failure would be due to user inattention and/or error, given that it took nearly ten years for the UV damage to penetrate a quarter inch plus (well, a big plus here and there).

Funny, the last message mentions Surprise being black and now I remember in the summary of JESSIE, a while back, the designer notes that the advantage of cold mold construction having two skins of diagonal with the outer third skin running fore and aft is that when there is superficial epoxy failure, the lines will look traditional and not unsightly. Wonder what Larry Pardy thinks of that? (Rhetorical, I won't email him, but if you want to. . .)

[buhmkin]

Oh yeah and Dragons, The Book is known by many as The Gougeon Brothers on Boatbuilding (I don't underline or put the name in quotes, but say those words to the chandler or librarian and you will get what you need). And you should know that the acid test Golden Hazey was revisited in Epoxyworks in mid 2000 with a pretty good report.

[warwick]

in 1983 I had to replace a mast, the resorcinol was letting go, the mast was less than 20 years. I have done much work replacing timbers in the cockpit, and replacing splines in the hull where the resorcinol had failed, I have as yet not had an epoxy buried fastening to let go from the heat of the sun,my boat is in Queensland, if it does get that hot maybe she will spontaneously combust, what would that do for an insurance claim.

[Frank E. Price]

What's an insurance claim?