Starting LILLY

[landlocked sailor]

smile.gif I have started Phil Bolger's electric launch LILLY. She was reviewed in WB a couple years back and Phil & Suzanne wrote a two part article in WATERCRAFT about her last year. I will take pictures as I go along and will try to post them through imagestation if I can figure out how. This will be my eight boat. I think I am offically hooked! :eek: Rick

[videoguy]

Welcome to the club. cant wait to see some pictures. smile.gif ...Phil

[John Blazy]

Electric Launch?!?!? Yeaahhh! Good to see others going electric. So soothing being able to have a whisper conversation with it "wide open". I'm really in a quandary with my 14 footer about the inboard drive train. I don't want to install a stuffing box and shaft designed for a high power ICE so I am planning on making the whole thing from McMaster Carr parts (5/8" shaft, bearings and shaft seals) and an E-tek motor from evparts.com. Guys at the electric boat forum say that it may be a bit overpowered for a 14 footer. Finding a prop has been such an exhaustive search that I plan to thermoform my own blades out of 1/4" Lexan and fit them into a homemade hub that I plan to machine (can't find large diameter displacement hull prop with small diameter hub - not running exhaust thru it). What kind of motor and prop will you use?
G'luck! - JB

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Rick, Lilly looks like a great boat. I'm looking forward to your progress reports.
John, could you post a link to the electric boat forum? I'm thinking about electric auxiliary power for the Eun Mara I'm building. I put a little electric trolling motor on my 14' John Gardner skiff (35 lbs thrust) one time last summer and cruised around the Back Cove with the kids and the dog. I loved the quiet but had trouble getting the tiller away from the kids. :D And we couldn't keep up with my wife in her 15' kayak. :(
Steven

Also John, have you seen the pictures of the Harry Bryan Thistle I built last spring? As an inventer and designer you might find it interesting. It's a pedal powered, fin driven decked canoe. Search on 'thistle' in building/repair and find the thread that has 'finished' in the title.

[ 03-06-2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Steven.Bauer ]

[landlocked sailor]

Phil has designed LILLY to use "off-the-shelf" components & equipment. Her 'powerplant' is a Minn-Kota 75lb thrust motor; enough to push her at hull speed in calm waters. Rick

[Bill Perkins]

Rick I'll follow your project with interest .I bought the video on the boat Mr. Bolger sells .It's very entertaining and informative .I think I might build one myself when I turn 60 . Till then I hope to keep rowing paddleing and sailing .

[John Blazy]

Well, Rick . . . You've got me thinking again about going with a big trolling motor. I kicked it around when I saw an almost beautiful (plastic not wood) little electric launch by cobalt marine (http://www.cobaltmarine.com) where they had twin 50# thrust trolling motors on either side of the pilot as armrests / steering rudders! I thought it was the most ingenious design imaginable for comfort and balanced power / steering. Lately I've been thinking about going with only one, powerful (75# thrust) trolling motor through the hull/raked stern with its shaft sealed in an aftermarket bearing, and disconnecting its powerhead to the side and rigging up a steering linkage. A big issue is weed removal too, so I was thinking of going with a Kort nozzle over it as well.
Interesting discussion in the efficiency of kort nozzles on displacement props at the eboat forum (http://www.eboat.org/forum/)

Steven, that little fish is awesome! I read everything there with great interest. My hat off to Harry for the design too. Must have been quite a head-turner. How's the lexan holding up to the stress? A little tip on the color from a color geek/designer - greens & blues are always good choices in boat finishes next to brightwork because it is complimentary in color to the reds of mahogony and other similar color woods due to the fact that they set each other off. Meaning that they accentuate the wood by use of color contrast, which is different from light/dark contrast. BTW, the lacewood hatch cover rocks! I highly suggest others to check Stevens boat out.

It brings out a challenge I give to anyone - Make a thistle-like boat to resemble an actual fish with cables operating the tail (I can visualize this all now and want to do it) through each of about three tail segments (like hinged lures) where last one fans out, of course.

The coolest part of this boat is that it would be license to do an outragious paint job with pearlescent and other color-changing metallics or even gluing on 'scales' made of aluminum or something, and just imagine how cool the bow would be! A red/green bow light for the nostrils!

Anyway, see my electric launch at click on electric boat construction (http://www.pbase.com/dr_dichro) - JB

[ 03-07-2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: John Blazy ]

[John Blazy]

Looking hard at the minnkota Maxxim 74# thrust now - less than 500 bucks. 24V will give the higher rpm, and will go with twin Evertroll batts at 130Ahr each and it should run 4evr - > four hrs at hull speed?. Can't find a Motorguide Tour 82# thrust, and even looked at their 109# motor, but if 74# takes me to hull speed, why waste the power and expense? I'll be hacking it up into pieces anyway to fit under my pilots seat with steering linkage to the side.

What kind of linkage/steering/mounting is the Lily spec'd for?

[landlocked sailor]

LILLY uses an unaltered motor mounted in a well. The control module at the top of the shaft is also the steering mechanism. Phil has put a lot of thought into the power supply. Briefly, there are 6 deep cycle batteries connected so 3 pairs provide 36 volts. He calls for diodes to prevent one or more batteries from dominating. Each battery has its own charger as well. It's not a cheap method, but it provides 8-12 hours of running between charges, depending on the speed.
I cut up a lot of expensive plywood in the last couple of days. Rick

[landlocked sailor]

Well, boatbuilding is easy compared to navigating the shoals of photo posting. Here is a test. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pa3178ec7c04b1278348972fb4f1912d2/fc8975eb. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pa3178ec7c04b1278348972fb4f1912d2/fc8975eb.jpg

[landlocked sailor]

:eek: Well I'll be darned, it worked, Rick. The pic is of the plans tube & building guide. Pretty exciting Huh? Rcik

[landlocked sailor]

Let's see if these all come up. Various views of laying out the plywood panels from the plans
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pfc0ac6f4ea7e8f6f04e6f03995706cc5/fc8973e6.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/p848477fda0b761e6308ba0d202f640c8/fc897404.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/p7c019d8f0e5798addb632f7bad466036/fc8973f6.jpg A circular saw cuts long curves easily. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/p9e08526b23eb3574500a03384b51ca08/fc8973d9.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/pe9d74802329c77b8ac81c61f6880d7ce/fc897484.jpg
The stack of "raw material" should have popped up first. More to come eventually. Rick

[John Blazy]

I see a launch in that ply somewhere. Its no fair that you have two fine workbenches (I see three vises).

Thanks for the info on your powerplants for the Lilly, it sparked a new section of thinking for me, as I was unaware that a 75# thrust motor could push to hull speed a 15' boat(or so claimed). Going with the trolling motor will soooooo much easier. - JB

[John Blazy]

Here's a little diagram of the new drive train idea that Rick sparked again for me. I originally was going with this idea of a trolling motor at the very start of my project but wanted more power, just to learn that it was opening up a huge can o worms. The following diagram will be much easier, yet still look sweet with plenty of power at 24V. The pilots seat is centered just above the control head, where the control arm will be offset near the right-hand armrest to eliminate the painful "behind-the-back-reach" of traditional trolling motor mounts.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid54/p275e874de93b1f36b240124d29d166c2/fc863ab1.jpg
The steel plate on the bottom of the boat's skeg will also provide the pivot point mounting to the little skeg on the TM. Thanks again Rick for the info on Lilly's power source. Why go with six small batts instead of two or three large (130A/hr) deep cycle cells? I've calculated that 260 Amp hours will provide quite a bit of cruising knowing that I won't be at full throttle all the time. I know you don't want to deplete the cell more than 50% each time, so I may go with four 100 A/hr deep cycle trolling batteries.

[imported_Steven Bauer]

John, have you seen the electric trolling motor set-ups the bass fisherman/wackos use? They race around the lake with these 250hp engines but when they get to their cove they stand in the bow and controll the boat with a foot switch which controlls both speed and direction. Possibilities? Anyone know more about how these set-ups work?

Steven

[Bill Perkins]

John there was a WB article on Lilly .Also Mr. Bolger described the power pac in MAIB . If I recall correctly seperate batteries with seperate chargers were thought to minimise chargeing time , which could become a limiting factor in useing the boat .I'll see if I can find those articles in the Archives .

[ 03-10-2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

[John Blazy]

Shoot Steven, not only do they have foot control, but they now have a wrist strapped remote for steering. Only MEN would invent that! Then you could steer your boat from the dock if needed. Before long they may have remote powered fishing gear and a bassmaster could do it all from the dock :D I like the mechanical control for this app.

Good point Bill. Charging takes all night after four hours on my other little boat thingy that runs a 30# thrust motor and an 85 A/hr battery (75% depletion). I'll just get two chargers or one very powerful one. Anyone suggest any? Evertroll cells at Walmart are cheap and so are chargers. - JB

[landlocked sailor]

I've made a bit more progress. The log sheets are joined by the 'Payson butt joint', which is simply a butt reinforced with fiberglass tape. I prefer to use regular scarfs but Phil has laid out the panels to take up the entire length of the sheet. There is no extra length for the scaff. I used a router set at ~ 1 & 2mm to make the recess for the 'glass tape. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pf542460081efb715661bde630af00cdb/fc825b2b.jpg These are the fore & aft bottom panels ready for epoxy. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pa4f9746186334f4db2a7917b813ba876/fc825cbf.jpg One side panel butted, recessed and epoxied. The 'glass tape is along side http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pfe16a3b93637e64d1e3bd73d39d0f9fe/fc825d44.jpg 'glass tape applied, http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pb7edc56d4cef59ff6ca19f4b2f4a527a/fc825e5a.jpg caul placed, http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pe33e5a3031e07d392cc12028b0e8808e/fc825c50.jpg & weighted. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pe7607b388b1025bd7e3485d9dfe3229a/fc825bf4.jpg Next step is coating parts with epoxy....Rick

[landlocked sailor]

I was able to scan this Kathy Bray rendition of LILLY from the Design Review in WB137. Rick http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/p15ed66173c08b186f4b3e86a3aad0f41/fc7c3120.jpg

[randallt]

hey this is a really cool thread. i am looking forward to watching the progression. i never throw any opinions out since i am probally about the most novice person on here when it comes to wood boats! on the other side of that, i make my living driving boats and i just went through a similar trolling motor situation. i went with a 55# thrust on one of my boats and regretted it big time!! it gave me what i needed maxed out, but there was no room for error!! i thought about going with a 75# thrust, but since there was not much cost difference, i went ahead and went with the 101# thrust. IT WORKS GREAT!!! i'm not sure about your situation, but in mine(wind, current, LOTS of boat traffic) it is nice to have the extra umphhhhhh when you need it! it is also nice to use a lot less juice to do the same thing. i understand that hull speed is hull speed, but that extra umphhhh makes a big difference regardless! one more thing...as far as battery chargers...my exide battery rep steered me toward a company that makes custom chargers. they can make a charger that delivers up to 10 or more amps per bank(they recommend 8) for about $150.00. i will post the info if anyone is interested..also academy is selling out last years minnkota chargers. they have the 20a 2 bank for 150 and the 30a 3 bank for 200. best wishes, randall

[John Blazy]

Thanks for the info Randall. Need all the info possible. Here's a link I found that has some cost and performance data on a 101 lb MK on an apparently similar sized boat. link to 101 MK data (http://www.geocities.com/sailapearson/PacketEngine.html)
Now I'm thinking of going with the 101 lb also for saltwater if I take my glass-bottomed boat to the Florida keys.

[landlocked sailor]

Thanks Randall. I think that if the bigger motor doesn't cost much more, it may be a good choice. Why does it use LESS juice? I have posted more pictures on the "LILLY progress" and "LILLY has a bottom" threads. More coming soon. Rick

[bob goeckel]

hey rick i can see the finished boat even in that first peice of ply(squint real hard). by the way, you wouldn't by any chance have a picture of the side bench placement on your heidi skiff you could send me could you ? bob

[landlocked sailor]

Yeah Bob, I think I can take one once I get the kayaks off it. Winter storage and all :rolleyes: Rick

[randallt]

hey john...thanks for that link. i actually enjoyed the links that are on that page. found some neat electric boat stuff that i had not found before!!
rick..as far as the "less juice"...i sure don't claim to be an expert on any of this but from what i can figure it draws less amps overall. i don't have the numbers right here in front of me but i think the 12v 55# thrust is about 45 amps maxed out....the 36v 101# is about 38 maxed out...and i think the 24v 75# is somewhere in between. the 101# thrust gives me the same at less than half throttle as the 55# did maxed out, so i am using a lot less amps. though it won't be as much...there should still be quite a difference between the 75# and 101#. i would be willing to bet that when it comes to UUUUMMMPPPHHH the 75# at 100% is equal to the 101# at 75%. even if you don't need all of the power of 101#, or even the 75#, it is always nice to have it in an emergency, or if nothing else to be able to move the boat at hull speed at say 25% throttle. that will make for some serious running time as well as a long motor life!!
as i am just talking from my short experience dealing with this so far, i am curious to hear other opinions, or anyone who has dealt with any of this. thanks, randall