Patching an ABS boat

[Bruce Taylor]

I did a whitewater trip this weekend and put a small hole in my ABS kayak. Does anyone know how you fix this stuff?

[N. Scheuer]

I believe thermoplastic weld repair would be the most trustworthy. They use hot air or hot nitrogen gas blowing throu a small nozzle for this. The repair may be be real nice, esthetically, but will be structurally sound.

Moby Nick

[Tom Dugan]

(Ooooh! You're going to get dinged for this one on the WBF!)

I've always had success with duct tape on ABS. And sadly, I do mean a permanent fix.

Maybe that's why I now prefer wood?

-T

[Ed Harrow]

One word for you - DUCT TAPE (well so it's two words, but it means only one thing, LOL). Seriously, aren't there repair kits? I seem to remember Mad River having repair kits for their various plastic canoes.

[John Bell]

Are you sure you mean ABS? The better whitewater canoes are usually made out of Royalex ABS, but every plastic kayak I've ever owned (or seen) was made out of rotomolded polyethylene.

Having broken a few boats myself as well as observing the results of friends attempts at repair of their boats, I would observe that once a plastic boat is broken, there is little or nothing you can do to really repair it to an 'as new' condition. Composites with epoxy or polyester are much better in this regard.

There are two types of PE, cross-linked and linear. Cross linked is stiffer and harder and generally wears better, but once broken, it is done. Linear PE is softer and suppossedly repairable via a welding technique. Cross-linked cannot be welded. My expereince has been that plastic welding will gain you at best another season of use. But it will break again on the welded spot so you should be looking for a new boat.

The best repair really is duct tape.

ABS canoes are almost as bad to repair. A kevlar-epoxy patch can be made to work for a time but as with PE, it's just a matter of time until you need a new boat. Glues won't stick to PE for anything in the world.

JB

[Todd Bradshaw]

There are epoxies formulated to stick to ABS and even some formulated to stick to polyethylene (that's how they stick the polyethylene base on the bottom of a ski) but they are not your normal boatbuilding epoxies. Old Town sells them and Mad River also has a lot of repair stuff and should have them. First though, you need to really be sure what your boat is made from. If it's Royalex, which is a laminate with a foam core, ABS layers for strength and a vinyl skin, it may take one formula (Old Town made some Royalex kayaks back in the 70's, but they are very rare) and if it's polyethylene, it may take a different epoxy. Polyethylene also needs to be cleaned, roughed-up and then have the surface polarized with a torch in order to get the epoxy to bond, so follow the instructions that come with the repair kit carefully. Plain ABS has lousy U.V. resistance and though it could probably be vacuum formed or molded into a kayak, I doubt anybody is using it when polyethylene is so easy to work with and cheap.

Odds are, you're not the first person who has punched a hole in one of their boats, so the manufacturer is probably the first place to call to find out what the material is and what they suggest for fixing it.

[Ron Williamson]

I was about to post a reply not unlike that of John's and Todd's,however they were here first.
How big of a hole have you got there,Bruce?A small puncture wound seems unlikely,but is repairable with a short carriage bolt and some inner tube material.
R

[ 06-03-2002, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Ron Williamson ]

[Bruce Taylor]

It could well be made of polyethylene (my Maggie claims it's made of melted milk-jugs -- and it certainly does have that slippery PE feel to it).

Ron, it's a very small hole, right at the stem. In fact, the hole's so small that I didn't notice it until I unloaded the kayak from my car.

It's not really a whitewater boat, although it behaves well in shallow rapids, and slithers over most obstacles quite nicely. The hull has a canoe-like form, with a rather sharp, plumb stem. I have a tendency to barge over fallen trees and such, so I probably chafed through the stem while scrambling over a chunk of driftwood.

What I'd really like is to reinforce the stem with a protective shoe of some kind.

[Gresham CA]

Try some Sho-Goo. Sticks like anything. It's made so some of us less wealthy folks can get a couple of extra months use out of teenage boys tennis shoes.

Think outside the box for this one.

Charles G.

[Bruce Taylor]

I just checked...it's made of High Density PE #2 -- recycled from shampoo bottles, buckets and, yeah, old milk jugs LOL.

It seems you can repair it by "plastic welding," but John says this is impermanent. Soooo...I guess it's shoe goo, duct tape, and whatever gloppity-glop I can find that might stick to this stuff.

Of course, the strongest adhesive known to man is a mixture of oatmeal and baby saliva -- and, come to think of it, that sticks quite well to the Little Tykes polyethylene high chair.

Thanks all, for the well-informed replies.

[ 06-03-2002, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[mmd]

Bruce, it's been too long since I resided in Wakefield to remember any local firms, but if you can find a company that repairs the moulded green recycle compost bins some municipalities use, or the blue boxes that papers are recycled in, they should be able to effect a weld repair for your kayak. Not much else sticks to LPE. Around here in NS we have several firms that repair the big grey LPE fishboxes, but I don't s'pose there is much call for fishboxes in the Ottawa valley. Bulls*** boxes for the politicians, maybe, but no fishboxes ...

[N. Scheuer]

Where are you located, Bruce?

I have a Son located in Milwaukee who is an expert plastic welder. My son-in-law over in NW Indiana is pretty good, too. Minneapolis/St. Paul has several capable outfits.

Some Plastic Wholesale Material and Fabrication companies havepalstic welding capability. Polyethylene and Polypropylene are both eminently weldable. The problem will be esthetics; additional rod material will probably be required, and it will most likely be the base resin color instead of your hull color.

Moby Nick

[John Bell]

Why not a blob of 5200? It might work!

BTW, If it's a crack you should drill each end of the crack to keep it from propagating.

JB

[Todd Bradshaw]

Some ski shops that do a lot of prep work also have hand-held extruders that are like hot glue guns and squirt out molten polyethylene. You rough-up the area, squirt a blob into the hole, let it cool and sand it smooth. With an extension cord out to the parking lot, they could probably do the job fast and cheaply. If the spot is subject to continued abrasion you might check with Old Town and see if they have a Kevlar skid plate kit that will stick to polyethylene. Once that stuff is attached, it will never wear through again.

[Bruce Taylor]

Michael, all the boxes in the country couldn't contain the runoff from the Hill this week. LOL

Moby Nick -- I'm in West Quebec...bit of a long drive to fix a rubber boat, but thanks!

John -- Yeah, 5200! The stuff would stick to an eel's tail. I've got a half tube around somewhere...I'll give it a shot, first thing in the morning

Todd -- I'll go straight to the Old Towne site and see what they have in the way of kevlar kits. With a skid plate, this would be a dandy little river boat. It has a hint of a keel (more of a v-bottom, really) and tracks nicely on the flat...but it still allows me to humph along over the rock gardens, like a rutting sea-elephant.

Great responses. I considered posting to a kayak site, but then I remembered...everything you need to know about everything is available right here.

[PaulC]

Won't the P-Tex candles from the ski shop repair this type of boat?

[Memphis Mike]

Bondo will do the job Bruce. Get the kind
that has the glass shreds in it.

[Todd Bradshaw]

P-Tex candles contain polyethylene, wax and solvent, so they really don't bond very well for long term patches. The extruder uses solid polyethylene sticks for ammo which bond much better.
Bondo doesn't stick well to polyethylene - thats why the mixing bowls and squeegees for it are made of PE. Glass fibers or not, it ain't gonna last.

[John Bell]

Originally posted by Bruce Taylor:
Moby Nick -- I'm in West Quebec...bit of a long drive to fix a rubber boat, but thanks!
I looked up where Wakefield is. When you said West Quebec, I think of places like Temiscaming. Now that's West Quebec! I actually get up in your area somtimes, an hour or two south in the Brockville, ON area. You live in a nice area to have a little kayak to putter about in.

JB

[Memphis Mike]

Bondo will stick to that if you know how to
put it on there.

[Bruce Taylor]

John, strictly speaking, we're part of the Outaouais...the drainage basin of the Ottawa valley, up on the shores of the prehistoric Champlain Sea. I think of Temiscaming as "le moyen Nord," but if they want to be West Quebec I won't fight them for the honour.

Next time you're up this way, drop by. We'll treat you right!

Mike, how do you get bondo to stick to polyethylene? Do you torch the surface first?

[Todd Bradshaw]

OK Memphis Mike, you've peaked my curiosity. What's this mystery technique for repairing polyethylene with Bondo? Since Bondo is polyester resin, which doesn't bond to polyethylene, mixed with powdered talc or some other ground up mineral, which doesn't stick to anything, I can't imagine how you're going to make a decent, long-term repair on a roto-molded boat with it. The addition of some ground-up glass fibers may stiffen and strengthen it a bit, but it isn't going to improve the bond at all. From what I've seen the stuff is barely good enough to use on fiberglass boats and in comparison to real epoxy-based marine fillers, pretty lame.

[Chris Ostlind]

Bruce,

I've managed to Piton more than a few Tupperware boats over the years and being too cheap to toss them, I found a reasonable fix to extend their life.

First, follow, Bradshaw's advice with the welded repair of like material.

Second, take a mold of the nose of your boat with something like five layers of fiberglass and epoxy. Nothing too large here, but leave yourself some room for trimming and shaping.

You're going to attach the new nose piece (Ram Cap) with aluminum pop rivets so you'll need a flange along the sides that will give you purchase. If you want to get really trick, then make sure to use suitable fender washers on the inside of the hull for better holding power. PE boats are famous for their creep and some rivet installations don't hold well.

Apply a liberal coat of silicone sealant to the inside of the new ram cap and install the new piece over the stem of your plastic beauty. When cured, trim the excess and hit the water with the secure knowledge of someone who can grease docks, logs and boulders at will.

All aesthetic mods such as painting and recessed rivets are optional.

Get back on the water where you belong.

Chris

[capt jake]

Just a thought here. I have used Methylene Chloride to weld (melt) broken plastics togehter in the past. Not sure if it will do the same on polyethlene, though. There was only one plastic that this didn't work on for me. Can't remeber what it was made out of though. Alas, all of mine has evaporated away, have to scrounge up some more. smile.gif

[Ed Harrow]

Martha Stewart to the rescue - grab your hot-glue gun, I've done some "customization" of milkjugs with hot glue...

But, bondo, the world awaits...

[Scott Rosen]

Here's what I'd do. Assuming the hole really is small, say less than 1/2". I'd get my tube of 5200 and a couple of pieces of saran wrap or waxed paper. I'd make a plug of the 5200, in place. I'd squeeze some 5200 through the hole, leaving some excess on the inside and outside. I'd flatten both sides with the wax paper so that the excess was spread wider than the hole on both sides. When cured, remove the paper and you have a nice plug that should stay put.

[Memphis Mike]

Scott, you beat me to it. You can do
the same thing with Bondo only rough up
the inside and outside edges of the hole
real good with coarse sandpaper. Over the
wax paper, tape two sections of cardboard
to flatten the plug out and hold the wax
paper in place.

I'm an avid fan of 5200 and really that sounds
like a better idea for a plastic boat but the
Bondo will work also.

[Todd Bradshaw]

At least the 5200 probably has enough adhesive quality to actually stick to the hull by more than just having a keyed-in shape and 5200 is flexible enough that it won't pop out or crack, but the Bondo approach seems really unsound and I haven't seen anything yet that would suggest that it's anything suitable for the long run. For the price of either a tube of 5200 or a can of Bondo, you can probably get the proper materials, with manufacturer's instructions and fix it right.

[Memphis Mike]

After you have removed the cardboard and
wax paper, rough sand again and apply
tissue paper, you know the kind that the
old airplanes are made of and then airplane
dope. The dope ain't the kind you smoke either.
Its the kind you inhale.

[capt jake]

I'm telling you, find a chemist or chemical supplier and try the Methylene Chloride. A small amount is all it will take. I'll be it'll melt the hole back together. If it does, it will permanant, as opposed to the other temporary solutions.
Where is the Chemist whe you need him, eh?

[Ron Williamson]

Bruce
I thought that Wakefield was in the "Independant Republic of Pontiac County". :D
I have a Wilderness Systems "Pungo" that will soon suffer the same fate,as it was in the local outfitter's rental fleet for a few years.
Have fun
R

[Bruce Taylor]

Chris -- I'm going to do what you suggest and make a GRP ram cap -- except I might try to find some gloppity-glop that will hole the cap in place. If it fails, I can always revert to rivets.

Capt. J -- I suppose I could dab some on and see what it does. Methylene Chloride is sold as paint stripper. Quite carcinogenic, I'm told.

My tube of 5200 turned out to be 4200, so I haven't done anything about that hole yet. However, I have lots to think about. Thanks, all.

[Dave Carnell]

About six years ago the PE grass chute on my lawn mower had a hole worn through it by sand, pebbles, etc. It was a sizeable hole. I repaired it by cutting a patch from a PE antifreeze jug and tacking it in place with hot melt glue. Then I built the surface up with beads of the glue, as a welder would do in hard surfacing metal parts. It has held beautifully. The not melt glues are essentially low molecular weight PEs, so you get a weld-type join. Hot melt glue is also good for fabricating polytarp sails, etc. where duct tape and other tapes don't stick well for long.

[m poulin]

Hi Bruce,

Hope black flies season is over up your way. Regarding your repairs you may want to contact Canus Plastics in Ottawa, downtown or thereabout. They used to have many plastic products and adhesives of all sorts. At worse, I'm pretty sure they could tell you how to fix the leak.

Cheers

M Poulin

[Bruce Taylor]

Thanks, Maurice. I see they're conveniently located, on Lisgar. I'll stop by the next time I'm in that part of town.

[Jeff Evans]

I used to work for a whitewater kayaking school. Definately duct tape if it's not too major a hole.

[Ed Harrow]

Originally posted by Dave Carnell:
...with hot melt glue. ... The not melt glues are essentially low molecular weight PEs, so you get a weld-type join. Hot melt glue is also good for fabricating polytarp sails, etc. where duct tape and other tapes don't stick well for long.Just remember where you heard this first, and it wasn't from Dave! It was from MARTHA! and me.

[capt jake]

Hey Bruce!! Let us (me) now if the Methylene Chloride works in this application. As a stripper, it probably has something else in ther with it. The stuff I had was pure. It had only failed me once, and that was after probably 30-40 repairs. I need to contact my Dad and get some more.
Good luck. smile.gif