Status check (and serious question) - 6 Jan '02

[Ed Harrow]

Regret there is NO pict. The camera had to do work work this weekend. (It's a tough life and all that...)

After finishing the prep work this week of bung removal, I took 51 screws out of the first broad on the port side. Nearly all of these screws, as opposed to the starboard side, were stainless. Nearly all the attempted screws came out, tho there ratio for bronze was probably closer to 50/50.

What I found particularly interesting is that nearly none of these screws were tight. Not only were they not tight, but the ss screws all appeared to be in as-new condition (I've taken some others out that were in pretty tough shape). So, speak to us socerers, witches, hags, pans, dwarfs, and imps and tells us why these things are so. Thanks!

[Remittance Man]

"I took 51 screws out of the first broad on the port side."

Did she complain?

[ken mcclure]

Sh&t! The 10-foot pole! Quick, man.....

[dasboat]

http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/contrib/navigator/band.gif (hear drum roll and rim shot)

[Wayne Jeffers]

The interesting thing to me is that he says the first broad on the port side, suggesting that there is more than one per side. That's some boat you got there, Ed! http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/wink.gif

Why did your camera get a weekend job just now?

Wayne

[J. Dillon]

ED,
Can you find out the name of the manufacturer of those S. steel screws ?
JD

[Thad]

When were those screws put in? and how much use did the boat get in the mean time? Surface degradation of oxygen starved SS occures in the presence of water flow.

[Dale Harvey]

Why were they loose? Likely because the electrolitic current from the dissimilar metals had begun to eat away the weakest material, THE WOOD!! Take a REAL close look at the oak, see if it looks "burnt" or fuzzey. May be a large part of why your floors were so bad.

[Matt J.]

Thad, you know I have loads of respect for you, and certainly you have oodles of experience I don't, but you say that SS degrades in conditions of flowing water. I thought quite the opposite was true - I thought that SS being fed flowing water - a fresh oxygen source - would survive quite well, whereas SS with stagnant water used the O2 up quickly, leaving the SS in an environment w/o O2. I thought that the SS was formulated in such a way that the surface of it required oxygen, and without it, it degrades. This leads me to think that Ed's SS screws, being loose, survived just fine - especially if they were put in loose and never saw much time in the water. The loose cavity would provide plenty of O2, in or out of the water.

Ed, on our Saga we found a number of stainless screws as well. All of them are recent, all in good condition, except for the very heads which were covered in 5200. None of ours are old enough to have seen service underwater. All of the 5200 heads were losing their "Stainless" surface. Now I (and you a well, I suppose) need to de-bung any and all suspect screws and make sure there's no SS screws being cleverly hidden.

We bought our boat from a guy who restores wooden boats "professionally" and yet he did some really stupid things. Few of which were done for selling the boat - most of them are from when he wanted to restore her for himself...

What was the question again... http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Scott Rosen]

Here's my thoughts Ed.

First, I like Dale's reply.

Second, I may be stating the obvious, but the side with the ss was done at a later date. Do you know when she was refastened and how old the ss screws are? I'm also concerned that they are "loose." How loose are they? If, during the refastening, they were simply driven in the existing screw holes, then that could explain why they were loose. It would also scare me to think that someone used ss screws in a bronze fastened hull, and used the wrong size as well. The fact that they were in perfect condition could mean that they were NOT oxygen starved. That can only mean trouble. There should be no oxygen supply to a properly driven and bunged screw.

Did I ever tell you that the only rust and corrosion problems I have on Patience are caused by ss fasteners? Don't use 'em.

[Ed Harrow]

This one didn't complain a bit; the two on the starboard side sure did...

I will follow up with the individual under who's watch this work was done (the owner prior to the parties from whom I acquired her). This work is at least 15 years old, but the boat was not in the water much the last two-three years. Both sides have had extensive work done to the frames heels (If Rick Prose is reading the mail he can give you a better assement than I of the work (scary comes to my mind...), but the port side fasteners on this plank and the garboard were nearly 100% stainless. Did find a few bad ones... The Starboard side nearly 100% bronze. I wish I could recollect how the ss screws came out of the port-side garboard. I know it was easier as the heads were all in good shape, but I don't recollect it being "too" easy.

Dale, interesting comment re condition of the wood. I've not noticed any difference from side to side, but will take a closer look for certain when I get this plank off. As to the general condition of the floors I'd guess the stainless might have aggravated the problem, but certainly wasn't the total cause as the starboard side is just as bad.

[Ian McColgin]

The stainless would eat the bronze, and so would tend to look good, but only a little. If you have to mix ferrous and nonferrous, ss and bronze are the closer to safe. Especially above the water line, perhaps not the worste thing.

The quality of the ss matters hugely. 304 or 308 has too little chrome compared to the rarer (in screws) 312 or 316.

If you're looking mostly below the waterline and if it turns out that the age of the job is not the major variable, then I'd look to more salt water intrusion making for galvanic action - perhaps through the oak in the frams? - and if this were the case, take a really good look at the hood ends of the frames.

Sounds like in general you're running pretty lucky and doing good.