Push / Pull Tiller construction

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

I have an eleven foot skiff with a beautiful laminated and gently curved tiller that Arch Davis made. The only problem is that it seems not to work for me. Specifically, it is too long and in the way. I cast it aside the last time out and substituted a quickly fitted piece of ash that was much shorter. Things went better but were lacking.

Then today I saw a fellow with a small sailboat that had a push/pull tiller and I thought, "Hey, that's what I need." His I saw only from a distance and at best it looked to be quite crude and primitive, but it worked.

First, tell me what you folks think of using a push/pull vs. the traditional style.

Secondly, do any of you know of a way to hook up this type of a tiller? What does the mechanism look like? Type of hardware, etc. Thanks in advance. This forum is a real lifesaver.

[ 06-25-2003, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Captain Pre-Capsize ]

[imported_Steven Bauer]

In some parts of the world push/pull is the traditional way. The Norwegian faering I'm building with my son has that kind of tiller. The cross arm locks into the rudder with a wedge. I'll take pictures after I've built it. :D

Steven

[Todd Bradshaw]

It works fine, once you get used to it. Generally there is a single, horn-like arm sticking out one side of the rudderhead and the steer-stick is attached to the horn's end with some sort of universal joint, which can sometimes be as simple as a pair of interlocked eye-bolts. The getting used to it part is predominantly the fact that the steering motion is the same on both tacks (example: pushing always turns the boat to starboard, pulling always turns to port). If you are used to tiller steering it can take a while to adapt.

[T Eagle]

I had a small sailing dingy when a kid with a push/pull tiller.

It was incrediably simple and effective.

The rudder had an arm from the top of the rudder extending about 6inches at a right angle to the rudder. This arm had a hole drilled down vertically, into which a piece of rope was threaded and a figure of eight knot was tied at the bottom (to keep it in place and ensure it couldn't come out). The tiller are had a corresponding hole at the rudder end, into which the rope was threaded and knotted off in a similar manner (with about 1 or 2 inches of slack for movement.

That was it - in all the years we had it it never once failed or broke - and as kids we were pretty rough.

Hope this helps.

TE

[Mike DeHart]

The shad skiffs of the Delaware Bay were traditionally push-pull tiller steering. The skiffs were about 24' long open boats with a single inboard engine in the center of the boat. The tiller was mounted to the right of the engine box on a pivot in the deck. The short end of the tiller was below the deck. It attached to a length of pipe that ran under the deck to the rudder arm. The rudder arm attached to the rudder post, pointing directly to starboard or 90° from the rudder itself. Pulling the tiller back turned the boat to starboard. Pushing the tiller forward turned you to port. It was like moving the tiller would speed up or slow down only the side of the boat it was mounted on.

[Jeremy Burnett]

My Rushton Princess sailing canoe has a push pull tiller.A wooden yoke sticks out on one side of the top of the rudder.The tiller is fastened to this using a universal joint of the type usually used on dinghy tiller extensions.The tiller is around 6 ft long made from laminated ash and has a kink in it to avoid the mizzen mast.It works well but is not as sensitive as a normal tiller.On one occasion I dropped the tiller during a manoeuvre and the next thing I knew was that we were going fast across the harbour with the tiller streaming out astern.It now has a loop of cord holding it loosely to the mizzen so that this cannot [ hopefully] happen again.My wife who handles the mainsheet,and sits forward says the view was interesting as I lay out astern to retrieve it.

[Bill Dodson]

Here's an example from Chesapeake Light Craft (the Skerry)-
http://www.clcboats.com/images/boats/skerry_drawing.gif

[Sailman58]

A friend of mine who builds and sails sailing canoes is a strong believer in using a pair of push-pull tillers on his boats.

[gert]

Carina (Shearwater) has a push pull tiller. The fastenings should be metal not a wedge (this could work loose) the cross arm is about 12" and should rotate at the rudder cheek just as the tiller to cross arm should. The rope conection here was too slopy and chould be a 1/4" pin with a cotter pin on the under side. I'll see if I can post an image of this; it's a nice steering system.

[john welsford]

Dont forget that the arm on the rudder head is your lever, a common mistake is to make it too short and then suffer because the helm is hard to handle.
JohnW

[Ian McColgin]

An alternative I made for Leeward - my chamberlain gunning dory - since I did not want the stick in the way:

A steering rope from a disc or semi disc, depending on your stern - atop the rudder post.

The simplest, which does not really work, is just to run the line through some pullies or fairleads around inside the gunnel. If you're using a semi-disc off the rear of the rudder post, cross the lines before running around as it's more intuitivly logical on each side that pushing ahead steers you away from that side. Picture sitting, gripping the starboard line in your right hand and port line in your left. Turn your whole body the way you want to go. See?

Now, the winkle that makes it work. A direct drive steering line is too much stress to conveniently steer. You need a bit of mechanical advantage.

Have the line around the disc end spliced to a block on each end suitably away from the rudder itself.

The steering line you actually hold will lead from a point on the gunnel back through the block on that side and then forward, around the boat, back to the block on the other side and forward to a fixed point for that end.

2:1 on the handeled line is nice.

The stresses are low, but you want a line thick enough that it's comfortable to hold. You may also find it convenient to tightly sieze on a turk's head midway between two fair leads where your hand mostly comes to rest.

Ornament and embellishments abound.

G'luck

[brian.cunningham]

They're used quite a bit on canoes. Quite handy in narrow boats.

You may want to mock something up, so you can see how it works.

[AndyFarquhar]

I just posted a photo of my new rudder with a push/pull stick on the Yahoo Sailing Canoe Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailing_canoes).

I use a carriage bolt with a copper tube bushing for the tiller-rudder connection. A piece of rope works great too.

Regards

Andy

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Thanks guys, I've started a mock up and for now will make it as simple as possible. I'll have a short wedge that will be inserted where the stock tiller fits. Looks like it will extend just six inches from the rudder into the boat where I will screw on a tear-drop shaped piece of 1/4 Meranti ply. This will extend off to port and I will attach a pole to the point of the "tear". (Mucho thanks to John as I most certainly will make it extend farther to port than if he had not suggested to.) I'll attach the pole to the ply with rope and give it a whirl. If I like it then I can always make a version that has more polish to it. Thanks again!

[Shalfleet]

We also have a Sand Dollar skiff and I like the idea of the push/pull idea as the tiller does get in the way. Let me know how it works and I'll probably give it a shot too.

One other related point is that I increased the maximum turning angle of the rudder by planing a 45% angle along the edges of the rudder stock. This allowed me to bend the rudder fittings so they did not hit the transom so soon. She tacks a lot better now.

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Shalfleet:

You sir, are a Godsend. What a great idea to modify the rudder as you described. I will get on it pronto. After building it for six months the last thing I wanted to do was admit that... well, it just didn't seem to come about and turn as I had hoped. Just thought it would be something I would have to get used to. But no more thanks to you!

As to the push / pull tiller. DO IT! I cannot believe the difference! Suddenly I no longer have that #%*^(X!#X%! tiller in my back as I sat in the bilge. I found that solo trips on DAWN MARIE sitting in the bilge kept the bow down. If I sat up on the rear seats the bow picked up off the water. Likely I will add ballast to the bilge up front in the future. The best kind of ballast of course is one of the children!

Here is how I made the new and improved tiller: Take a piece of lumber (I used ash) that is 12" long and 2" wide and 3/4" thick. Shape it to insert into the rudder stock in place of your tiller. Take a piece of 1/4" ply and screw it onto the top of the fore piece of lumber. I shaped my ply out of a piece that was 11" X 5". The 5" end is screwed onto the top of the lumber extending out from the rudder. The shape of this ply is close to the shape of the state of Florida. The northern border of Florida is what you screw onto the lumber extending from the rudder. The tip of it - say around Miami is where you drill a 3/8" hole. Drill a corresponding hole in the end of a five foot broom stick and then thread a piece of appropriate rope through the stick and tiller "lever" (Miami). Knot off the rope on the underside of the lever and the topside of the stick. Leave an inch or two of slack in the rope for the new tiller to be easily manipulated. You can now steer from one spot. My lever extends on the port side of the rudder so for me (I am left handed) it is very intuitive to push the tiller forward to turn to port and pull back for starboard.

I would heartily recommend it. If it ends up not suiting your taste you haven't wasted a lot of time on it. It took me (I am not especially handy despite having built a boat - uh, is that a contradiction?) only an hour or so.

Do me a favor: I don't know of any other Sanddollar builders out there. Let's stay in touch and perhaps we can continue giving each other improvement ideas.

Let me know how the new tiller works for you if you decide to do it. Thanks for the great idea on the rudder!

[ 06-29-2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Captain Pre-Capsize ]

[Shalfleet]

Thanks Captain! I actually had a shot at building one earlier today but was not too pleased with the results. Not enough wind to sail her so could not really test it out. I am thinking about a rope based system but it will be more costly and time consuming to build. By the way, the chamfer I planed starts just above the level of the transom, so it remains square around where the tiller fits in. The transition between the square and chamfered edges can the made to look quite nice with little curves, just like Arch suggests for the stem. I re-bent the mounting hardware so the angle between the two metal "prongs" is 90 degrees, not 180 as before....I'll post a picture if it will help.

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Shalfleet:

If you could post a pic that would be great - I'd appreciate it. More importantly how does one go about posting a picture? I'd like to post one of my completed boat but am hopelessly analogue in a digital world. Thank goodness for my twelve year old to bring me along!

I have taken a good look at my rudder and it "stands off" the transom an inch. The metal gudgeon (or is the part on the rudder a pintle?) is curved as it passes the corner of the rudder, not a sharp 90 degree angle. It looks to me like I may be able to simply bend the metal more severely into a sharp corner to give the rudder more "throw" or transit. What do you think? Does yours make a sharp-cut corner or a gradual smooth curve as it passes around the rudder?

We are digressing from the original intent of the post but this is a forgiving crowd or they wouldn't be boaters! By the way, have you seen the following site of this guy who also built a Sanddollar? Here it is if interested:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/n/dnewnham/VarunaFrameHome.htm

[ 06-30-2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Captain Pre-Capsize ]

[Shalfleet]

Captain,

It sounds like your rudder is not so bad as mine was, in that the curve and "standoff" will allow some reasonable degree of turn. I originally bent the hardware into right-angles which was not a good idea. You may not get as significant an improvement as I did by planing the corners off the rudder but it was especially effective for us.

The only way to post a picture is by putting the picture up on a site somewhere (most Internet Service Providers e.g. AOL, Bellsouth provide some free space), and then typing and before and after pasting in the web address to the picture. Do a search for "posting pictures" and you will get a better and more accurate description. I would love to see your pictures so feel free to send to me and I'll have a go at posting them for you. The website is ours...thanks for posting it!

[On Vacation]

On this thread, thre is a type of tiller steering that we use, and it shows the hook up for an inboard rudder. If you wish to have a fore and aft, rigging it is still pretty straight foward, for a sailboat,also.
http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002816

[gert]

forgive the dragon, it was a whim after previous rudder top broke and needed reinforcing.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid76/p4d1ab206e5bcc7cfea7221e8dc3d0fc3/fb455d2b.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid76/p85ed59c06969c108f3a499b36309122b/fb455d35.jpg