hard day at the lake

[hikingchrs]

I went sailing on Saterday with the shmbo... we launched it was going well as we were sailing along the windward shore (I think shore and wind on same side of boat?). I turn out toward center of lake the wind picks up alot, shmbo is getting wet from spray over the weather rail, and looking a bit distressed, I think to this point things are going fine but I want to change from reaching to running we are moving quite fast at this point and would like to change course and tacks, this is where things go not so well, the sail is on the the starboard side as will the sail as I turn the boat right I haul in the sheet the boat starts healing at a alarming rate so I ease the sheet back out the waves are now hit the boat broadside the sail has spun to 10' the wrong way shmbo is in bad victum stage. I tell her to lower the sail. the sail comes down unship the oars and row back to the dock took a long long time. this is the 2nd time this has happend in the last week what am I doing wrong? note shmbo was not there for the 1st smile.gif
Chris

[WWheeler]

Could be that you're "sailing by the lee". (Running before the wind, with the boom on the same side of the boat as the wind)
Generally not recommended, since it can result in an accidental gybe (what you experienced), or a death roll (boat pitches until it finally trips - some of what you experienced). Covered in a basic sailing text.

[hikingchrs]

I never gybe'd even when I Tried... I guess what happened I had the wind to port and then turned starboard let the sail out was running with sail on starboard. wanted to go more starboard I knew I need to get sail on port side of the boat but it would not go there... there was too much wind about 1' to 2' waves. when I hauled in the sheet while turning to the right I had expected to gybe but it just stated to heel to the starboard side I expect it had something to do ith the sail twisting. My boat is Lug riged, I suspect that the yard was way out to the starboard side and the boom was about even with the rail, could I not have had enouph tension on the downhaul? If it happend today I could have turn hard to port and gybe'd when the boat pointed threw the wind, I guess my ? was is there a better way?
Chris

[Brent Cummings]

I,m just a novice sailor, but with heavy wind and seas I prefer to turn into the wind to get the sail on the other side and then sheet out to run again. Less stress on the rigging too I think.

[WWheeler]

Right. If you're already that far out of control, gybing could be difficult and risky. It would be better to round up into the wind and tack, then come around to the new direction.

You should have gybed while the wind was still on the port quarter, then you established your new course.

PS The twist in your sail is probably the result of sailing by the lee - the trailing edge of the sail (leech) actually becomes the leading edge to the wind (luff). Even in a bermuda rig this twisting occurs.

[ 07-05-2005, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: WWheeler ]

[David W Pratt]

And when you do gybe, "overgybe" so the sail is streaming downwind and is unloaded, then you can come down to course in a semi-controlled manner.
Good luck.

[hikingchrs]

Thank you very much.
Chris

[John B]

I think hauling the sheet in in a small boat creates more problems than its worth . Probably just better to crash gybe it over( if you're going to gybe).Tacking around is called a chicken gybe around here. It can be a wise thing to do. I'll do it for sure if I can't get the sheet in. My wife might then say something like ,'book book book'or 'man or mouse' ;) but you get that.

[ 07-05-2005, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

:D :D :D

Alan

[WindHawk]

I never really cared for it, but in sailing school on 13" Flying J's, we (my son & I ) spent many hours going round & round three bouys. This teaches you how to sail on all points, and it's probably something you won't ever do on your own. The best part of it is that we really don't have to worry about where we're going anymore, we just adjust the sails as needed. We even learned to dock with the sails.

All of which doesn't mean we're experts; sailing by the lee can happen. The one time I did it, it felt like too much weather helm, and then "Evan! She's going to gybe! Get your head down!" Wham!!!! I don't sail by the lee anymore, but I'm told that it can come in handy when racing.

[Bruce Hooke]

I've been trying to think through what might have been going on and if you were not able to gybe then you were probably, in fact, reaching not running, at least when it came time to actually try to get the sail across. It is easy to let the boat head up into the wind as you try to get ready to gybe and if the wind is not coming from dead aft you have no hope of gybing. If you can't get the sail to gybe across then you need to head off more -- at some point the sail WILL come across, whether you want it to or not. (Edited to add: if the waves were hitting the SIDE of the boat when you where trying to gybe then something was definitely wrong -- the waves should have been coming from dead astern. **) Your problems were likely compounded by the relatively strong wind it sounds like you were dealing with.

What I would recommend is that you go out on a day when there is enough wind so that it is clear where the wind is coming from and so that the boat moves along rather than just "ghosting" and gybe and tack over and over to get comfortable with it. This will make it easier to understand what is going on when the wind gets strong and you have to be more sure of what you are doing, as well as help you with when the wind is very light and does not provide you with much "guidance" as to how best to sail.

Better yet would be to get out with someone who is experienced and have them provide you with some instruction. But try to find someone who will let you do things rather than just take the helm and leave you no better off at the end than you were at the start...

**Note: it is not always true that the wind and waves come from the same direction -- on the ocean you can have swells running across the wind, and various other funky things can happen under certain situations, but it is unlikely that you would have been dealing with such a situation on your average lake...

[ 07-05-2005, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[B. Burnside]

I was wondering if you were going pretty fast on your reach (wind from starboard)and then when you tried to come up into the wind (turning to starboard, toward land) you went even faster. That would make sense - hard on the wind is fastest, but wet and bumpy. Then when you eased the sheet the boat also spun around? You said the sail was 10 ft the wrong way - do you mean out to starboard but with the wind behind you now, or to port?

Was the wind off the land and you were trying to get back to shore? If that was the case, you would have needed to beat back, tacking hard on the wind all the way. That would be the fastest and wettest point of sail, and pretty hard on your sweetie, maybe.

What you might consider next time is heading into the wind for the first part of your sail and then getting a reachy sort of a run happening on the way home. Then you find out how the wind feels as you let it do its worst at first and you don't get surprised by the strength of it far from the harbour.

Sailing around buoys or whatever is a really good practice. Just keep doin' it until you get the feel of it without words.

[WWheeler]

"Crash gybe" not recommended in these parts - it can tear the boom & hardware right off the mast in a strong enough wind, not to mention what it can do to your head. (the boom can sometimes snap downwards, reducing the amount of clearance).

[hikingchrs]

You said the sail was 10 ft the wrong way - do you mean out to starboard but with the wind behind you now, or to port?

when I let go of the sheet the I suppose you could say I gybed but the boom went in front of the mast, on port side wind and waves on starboard side. I just need more practice i suppose. anouther trouble was the lake is fairly large but the area I was in is kinda shaped like an L, my trouble came where the two lines in the L meet. they call that area Battry Point for those of you who know lake Massabesic (sp?)
Chris

[B. Burnside]

So your sail was sort of streaming out like a flag in the wind. Makes a lot of noise, but at that point you may have depowered it. Next time, on your own, and preferably with less wind, you could cautiously see if you can figure out what happened, maybe even try to do the same thing again and see what you can do next. Is your rig unstayed? With unstayed lug rigs there is nothing to crash against, if I am not mistaken, so a gybe is not so catastrophic unless you get hit by the boom. It might work to sheet in again on the new tack, and start beating upwind. As you work with your particular boat you'll get a feel for how much stability she has from her shape. If she is wide and flattish on the bottom it's easier to keep her standing up. If she is a narrow boat for her length you will have to be more lively with where you place your weight. Lug rigs are a bit harder to get to go upwind because there is no headsail. I sympathise with you rowing home!

With our lug rigged ones you can get them to go to windward better by hiking out on the rail. But it took me quite a while to get up the nerve to do that. Eventually it feels like hanging on the wind - it's beautiful. But you have to be ready to go into the water if you miscalculate. That's a pretty good plan anyway - pfd, important stuff tied to the boat, etc. Is anybody else out there to lend a hand, all that. Might even be a good idea to capsize on purpose on a warm day in shallow water to see how to get her up again or bail her out.

You are getting to know the tricky bits in your home waters, too. Good stuff. There really is a lot to be said for going upwind first, and putting that together with your local knowledge of where wind and current, if you have any, get complicated. I really like to have a run saved up for when I'm tired and it's time to go home.

[WWheeler]

In the following diagram, the "quartering run" is good form for sailing before the wind. Imagine, however, if the boom were on the other side of the boat while travelling in the same direction. That makes the sail unstable, since the trailing edge of the sail is actually facing the wind. Throw in the waves striking the boat, or even worse a following sea, and the oscillating effect can be quite pronounced.

http://www.sailfree.com/Classroom/Slide1.JPG

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by John B:
"Tacking around is called a chicken gybe around here."

Tacking around is called a granny gybe over here. Don't ever 'admit' to doing one.

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
"...but it is unlikely that you would have been dealing with such a situation on your average lake."

The name of the lake in the city here in Canberra is Lake Burley Griffin named after the American town planer and architect Walter Burley Griffin, who designed the city.

The nickname for the lake is 'Lake Barely Sailable' because the wind descends vertically, then hits the water and explodes to all points of the compass. Boats sailing to the same mark and within metres of each other can be sailing to different points. One boat can be sailing close and full while the other can be free running and within moments the rolls reverse. People say this lake is like no other and barely sailable. There are no darkies on the water to say the wind is now descending until it knocks down the boat.

When we race on the lake and half of the fleet has just been knocked over you hear, "what was that? what happened? I didn't see anything, what was it? I've no idea." I smile when others go over, knowing that we are sailing on borrowed time and next time it will be us.

Warren.

[ 07-06-2005, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Tim Diebert]

Warren. Sounds like your lake is every day how mine was last Friday.
From another thread:
Typing this has reminded me of that days sail. I have sailed this lake for four years, other lakes and the Gulf Islands for many years and never seen anything like these damn ninja squalls. Basically calm water, no sign of anything...and these little banshees would drop down from the sky in patches....some 10, 15....but the wicked 20 knoters would be a pain. They would slam you from (pick a direction) then it is 2 minutes of mild panic, course change and sail trim and then sit back and see how much pressure you had (be overcanvased)...race along for a few minutes at well over hull speed.....then nothing.....and be slammed from 180 around...or 260. Bugger. It was not only aggravating...I also found it kind of creepy. At one point I hove to finish a beer and have a sandwich. In less than five minutes that boat veined around 270 degrees. Waves from one direction, wind from another...bizarre. Furled the sails, motored to a favourite spot, dropped the rock and went swimming. :D

[Wild Wassa]

Tim, the 'tormented by wind sailors' on the Forum, should form a support group.

There are 3 lakes in the city and one on the southern outskirts. Lake Burley Griffin in the centre of the city, is the only lake that displays these gusty and shifty conditions.

The prevailing wind in Canberra is from the North West. Unfortunately (although I do like it), that means that the wind in the main racing area generally blows past Black Mountain before arriving in a fairly turbulent state.

Barb Bernside, Hi Barb, and other members answered a question which I asked on the first day that I sailed on LBG (some time ago now), when I encountered a situation I had not experienced before. It was a 5 metre wide ribbon of wind that was about 800 metres long. Barb told me that she called this type of wind a 'cats paw'. Our boat was the only boat that found the cat's paw that day. We ran the cats paw and went from being also-rans hundreds of metres behind the leaders to nearly steeling the race off them. There were boats either side of the cats paw who's sailors could almost reach out and touch it, but they spent the day 'going nowhere fast'. I've probably only sailed on my home water Lake Ginninderra a couple of times since that day, I was so impressed with LBG that I've only been on Ginninderra to race at our home regattas.

Lake Ginninderra receives the gentle wind first. It then slowly climbs over Black Mountain before rapidly descending onto Lake Burley Griffin.

I like the uniform wind that Lake Illawarra sees. Lake Illawarra is 200k's north east of Canberra on the coast. After being battered on LBG ... visiting the coast is like going for a detox in rehab. The big Olympic course is on Lake Illawarra so it is always worth a visit.

We raced on LBG against some trailable yachts at the start of June. We were in a dinghy. A Sonata beside us, not more than 10 metres from us at the time, was nearly knocked down twice, it was so close ... and we didn't feel a thing. The wind didn't even mess up my hair.

I feel for you Skipper ... when I knife edge it more, the experience is enhanced. Cheers Mate.

Warren.

[ 07-07-2005, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[B. Burnside]

I have a copy of a book that is potentially a real help to those "tormented by wind", as you say, Warren. Unfortunately it really needs a good editor. It makes me even crazier than I am already to read the thing, but even so it has some really good explanations of why we get that goofy wind at times. The copy I have is Dinghy and Board Sailing Weather by Alan Watts (1984). If anyone knows of a comparable book or a better-edited version of this one, please let us all know.
Barb
Warren, those "cat's paws" you describe might be better named "dragon's breath"!

[Wild Wassa]

Barb, it is a pleasure to see your posts on this thread. I was only thinking just few days earlier, that some if those who had made the site a pleasure when I first joined and helped me raised my game, had not been around for a while.

Tormented by wind is the reason why I do it. Harnessing natural forces and getting it right somedays ... is an illusion but I still try.

Trying to drag every ounce out of the wind and capturing it in the sails and not wanting to spill or lose a single drop of it, makes it more than just a simple sail.

The guys who beat me when we race have taught me that. Some of them are unbeatable ... or they were until I learnt to pay particular attention to how they did things.

There is one young guy in one of the Scouting groups here in Canberra, who is so much better than anyone else in a race, it is almost spooky.

The fleet might be going well but this young bloke is 500 metres further out to sea and there was nothing to go further out to sea, to see or find ... but it is too late, he has beaten another 100+ boats again (in Sydney the Sea Scout regattas are big). It is a gift that you either have or you don't ... on the edge of the cat's paw is part-way to being there.

Warren.

[ 07-10-2005, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Hwyl]

I teach sailing in the summer (northern) and the book I reccomend is "Start Sailing Right" it's published by US sailing but it's widely available used, for a couple of bucks.The illustration shows kids but it's basically "the method" that Bob Bond outlined in the 60's, just sailing, no extraneous rubbish.

I admire everyone who has tried to help here. I have to admit that I had a hard time understanding the problem in the first place. I never posted because the obvious solution requires work from me. But here goes.

HikingChris give me an email my real address is triatic???@???yahoo???.com (ignore the question marks). I'll take you sailing in York Maine, or if you pay my gas, I'll come up to Manchester to sail your boat with you.

Hope that impresses you Warren.

[ 07-10-2005, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[John B]

what an offer. :cool: But go on Hwyl .. admit it mate. You just can't keep away from the water. :D

I read it that he ended up running by the lee but didn't go quite far enough to get the gybe going. I wondered if there was too much sheet out so that the boom was actually past abeam.

Anyway. that will all be sorted soon eh.

You'll never guess what I've missed out on doing BTW. :( I'll tell you later on.

[Wild Wassa]

"Hope that impresses you Warren."

I'll tell you what did impress me Hwyl, your photo of Portland Bill and I'm not easily impressed Skipper, ever. I was impressed to see the harbour empty of boats, someone has gone off sailing. They could be practicing already, the six years will go in a blink of an eye.

I joined a Yacht Club last week, the Southern Cross Yacht Club. To call the boats that I see there yachts, has got me a bit confused. Some of the yachts are smaller than my dinghy and about a 1/3rd the speed. I don't know what I'll do there except drink beer after 'a hard day at the lake'. The dress rules are strict there ... I should wear my dad's old pee jacket.

When I joind I was hoping to be given info on races and racing (which I requested) and was only sent my Members ID and stuff on 'Members Behaviour', 'Complaints', 'Credit Facilities', 'Dress Standards', 'Parking Areas', 'Interpretation and Implementation of By-Laws' and 'Smoking' and one letter and brochure further to the 'General By-Laws' on 'Dress Regulations'.

It is good to be back in the real world where the illusion is important ... I'm sure I'll scrub up.

Warren.

[ 07-11-2005, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by Wild Wassa:
"Hope that impresses you Warren."

I'll tell you what did impress me Hwyl, your photo of Portland Bill and I'm not easily impressed Skipper, ever. Stolen from sailing anarchy. I lurk over there.

There's just a few of us on here that likes all kinds of sailing.

[Wild Wassa]

C223, You are expected not to hold back ... with lots of photos posted if at all possible.

Originally posted by Hwyl:
"... sailing anarchy."

How do you marry the different sailing cultures between there and here? I did read some Aussie English on that site. They don't say 'ass' on that site, wondering if it will offend, smile.gif .

Warren.

[hikingchrs]

Hello,
Thanks for all the advise I went sailing again on Sunday had similar conditions as before... I was unable to gybe again I would start my staboard turn and would loose all the speed I had the wind would push the front of my boat over untill it was coming from the stern... happend 3x then I did something that I will not admit to smile.gif that was mentioned above. was able to change tacks was moving pretty good and then I lost the rudder lol. (note G/F refuses to sail with me now so after looseing the rudder there was no dirty looks, much better) I then lowered the sail rowed around the point reset the rudder and raised the sail and ontinues on my way smile.gif I will figure this out smile.gif
Chris

[WindHawk]

I agree, The US Sailing Book, "Start Sailing Right", is the likely best source for getting started. It's used around here for 1 credit college classes (meaning basic, and well laid out). The ASA book is then for someone who wants to continue. After that, it's wide open, but everyone should have either the Chapmann book, or the Annapolis Book of Seamanship, by Rosemarie.

[John Teetsel]

Chris, what exactly are you sailing? On another thread it sounds like a 15' double ender.

How big and what rig is the sail?
Do you have a jib?
Any ballast?
Do you have centerboard? Daggerboard?
What are you doing with the board when running downwind?

[John Teetsel]

From US Sailing, slides and movies. Hope this helps.

http://www.smallboat.sailingcourse.com/turning_the_boat_html.htm

They don't mention the centerboard/daggerboard in this little tutorial, but the more downwind your point of sail, the less board should be in the water. In fact, too much board is a detriment during a jibe. It will slow the turn and, in the extreme, can cause a capsize.

[hikingchrs]

Hi John,
I have a CLC Skerry, with a modified sail plan, has a balanced Lug sail 68 sq', and daggor board,
when running I have been letting it float in the slot I guess I could take it out my hands are usually pretty busy with the tiller and sheet though. I have the book the complete salior that someone on a previous post had recomended but it is a little dry to read, sometimes I just need a little nuge in the right direction I am sure I will get it next time, I also might go to the Yacht Club see if they offer lessons, I could send the child and have her teach me. smile.gif
Chris

[Ken Hutchins]

Chris, lessons available :D some evening this week? smile.gif Except Friday.

[hikingchrs]

Thanks Ken,
anytime you want to go for a sail let me know I can be at the dock in about 5 min. usually.
Chris

[John Teetsel]

I have a friend in Manchester who brags about some magnificant lakes. "Drinking water clear."

Nice boat. Have fun guys. smile.gif

http://www.clcboats.com/images/boats/skerryport_l.jpg