View Full Version : new schooner on the Lahave River
John Steele's (Covey Island Boatworks prez) personal yacht, Papa I. As I understand it, he took the lines off his former yacht, the circa 1890's Bristol pilot cutter Marguerite T, modified the stern and rigged it as a schooner. It was launched a week or so ago, and is lying at the Lahave Bakery (a local institution) dock for outfitting. Thot you might like a peek...
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/port_profile.jpg
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/stern_stbd_quarter_3.jpg
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/cockpit_detail.jpg
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/doghouse_looking_fwd.jpg
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/railing_detail.jpg
Can't say I likes the orange paint but since the rest is the stuff of dreams I suppose I could get used to it. Got any specs? Lod, beam, etc?
LOD = 16.81m (55' - 2")
LWL = 15.11m (49' - 7")
b = 4.52m (14' - 10")
d = 2.44m (8' - 0")
[ 10-20-2005, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: mmd ]
George.
10-20-2005, 07:55 AM
Beautiful, but, no bowsprit? Could that be right?
"...at the Lahave Bakery...dock for outfitting." You will also note that she has no main boom, either. Nor running rigging. Nor gaffs, but you can't see that from the photos I've posted.
She will have all of those items installed in the next week or two.
But she could have been rigged as a knockabout schooner, which has no bowsprit.
http://www.lostatsea.ca/tanwhalr.jpg
[ 10-20-2005, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: mmd ]
I like your question George. And thanks MMD, glad to keep up on John Steele's activities. If you see him say "Jambo" from me.
George.
10-20-2005, 08:18 AM
I see. But, from the LOA/LOD ratio, it seems like she'll have a very short bowsprit.
If she's based on a pilot cutter, with a deep forefoot, one would think she requires a fair bowsprit to balance. Knockabouts had very long spoon bows projecting forward, and their keels were designed to balance with no outboard sails.
Her set up does seem very like that in your old picture.
Lovely lovely lovely. That deckhouse is really pretty.
Built in Covey Island's usual epoxy/strip? Looks awfully like a traditionally laid deck, whatever the hull construction method ...
George, the dimensions given are length-on-deck and load-waterline-length, I don't have a copy of the sail plan, so I don't know the length of the bowsprit or the LOA. Here's a few pics of her at John's building shed (not Covey Island Boatworks shop) that show her underbody and bow profile.
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/stern_view.jpg
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/bow_detail.jpg
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/port_profile_1.jpg
TomF, yes, she is built with the usual strip-cold-molded method that CIB uses. I believe that the deck is (from inside out) tongue-and-groove plank / plywood / 'glass / laid Douglas fir, all in epoxy.
George.
10-20-2005, 09:11 AM
Oops! Confused LOA with LWL. LOL. redface.gif
A lovely boat. Amazingly enough, the orange paint works for me.
BTW, any thoughts on what inspired him to switch from cutter to schooner rig?
Paul Pless
10-20-2005, 09:14 AM
any thoughts on what inspired him to switch from cutter to schooner rig? peer pressure smile.gif
Probably not too far off, Paul! IIRC, this project is talked about somewhere on the Covey Island website ... the change to schooner rig was a tip-of-the-hat to local practice and history.
t.
"any thoughts on what inspired him to switch from cutter to schooner rig? " - George.I don't know. It may have something to do with the planned use of the yacht, but I'm neither certain of that nor in the position to publicly discuss it. Sorry.
Paul Pless
10-20-2005, 09:52 AM
from the Covey Island Boatworks website:
As a Nova Scotian he wanted a schooner rig to connect the design with the traditions of North America. If the schooner is regarded as the American rig, it would seem to be lovingly embraced even more so by our Canadian friends. ;)
Thanks for the pics of the boat mmd.
Look at the discussion of the Bristol Schooner (http://www.coveyisland.com/gumboot.html) on the Covey Island website ... also gives a picture of the rig (with bowsprit). 68' LOA. Nigel Irons was involved in modifying the hull lines from the original, and designing the rig.
Paul beat me to it with the quote on why a schooner...
[ 10-20-2005, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: TomF ]
Seth Wood
10-20-2005, 10:31 AM
Pretty, pretty boat. Thanks, MMD.
One of the pictures appears to show, instead of a windlass, a starboard-side chain gypsy with a hole for a winch handle at the top. Comments on this?
Also, am I imagining things or does she have a slight powder-horn in the sheer up by the bow, just forward of the chainplates? Could be a trick of the sheer, I guess.
Seth, I think if you look closely, that deck-mounted winch has a rope drum on top of a chain gypsy. The chain is just wrapped around the drum temporarily; I suspect that it had only recently been placed aboard and had not yet been stowed in its permanent location.
There is no reverese curve (powderhorn) in the sheer - it is just a trick of perspective and lighting in the photo.
Man, I could sit and look at that boat all day.
Mmd, how has he treated all that bright wood? Just varnish? Varnish over CPES or equivalent? Or over rolled/tipped epoxy, as they do for the interior of the hull? Maybe just oil on the douglas fir deck?
If anybody knows how to do this in a long-lasting way, you'd think that the owner of Covey Island would!
Hal Forsen
10-20-2005, 11:34 AM
Beautiful!!!
HF
This design seems to be converging with my idea of a great Gloucestrer Sloop Boat but with a deeper more plank on edge hull (AKA Bristol Channel)----England meets Canada meets USA---I am coming from the USA side, but a few people have asked about this Gloucester Sloop Boat idea of mine and want to rig it as a schooner---reason is for the ease of sailing a more broken up sail area.
Covey did a straight Channel cutter gaff cutter rigged, and the hull changes from tradition lead more towards the Gloucester Sloop Boat, bit of drag to keel, forefoot changes---Maritime History had a good article on the boat last issue I think. Tom Cunliff's boat---hard to go wrong here.
Another boat that seems to do this combination thing is Bryony (sp?) out in the NW USA---very cool boat too.
Cheers
http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/image.php?Id=436
more pix Pagan (http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/Gloucester-Sloop-Boat.htm)
By the way, that boat is beutiful even if it was all pink above and below :D
cheers
Read my mind again, Bruce. I was mentally comparing the hull shapes.
The new schooner has a foot more draft, a foot less beam, and 4-5 feet more both overall and on the waterline. But the profile, and what we can tell of the body sections look very close. It might be that your GSB has slightly harder quarters.
I will be VERY interested to hear how this schooner sails, and to give a bit of thought to where the lead is etc.
Tom, the base drawings for the GSB at 44 feet gives her the same draft and only 1 foot less deam than the 52 foot Vesta and a bit more fullness to the fore area---very similar to the Covey Island Papa---Have you looked closely at Bryony?
Anyone have pix or diagrams of Byrony?
Cheers
GOT ONE! http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2004/Bryony-1.jpg
Cool link that mentions and pictures Bryony. www.pragdata.com/philboat/SailTraining.html+bryony+boat+port+towns (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:bT49m6p_r2wJ:Bryony
sorry to get a bit off the real thread here---its just that the Covey Schooner makes my dreams even more dangerous.
cheers
[ 10-20-2005, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: OEX ]
Ooh. A a a h h. (pauses to mop keyboard). No Bruce, I hadn't looked at Bryony.
Still, a schooner's really the thing ...
here is that link again---sorry messed it up---read down to Bryony.
link (http://www.pragdata.com/philboat/SailTraining.html)
You know Murray Peterson's Coaster schooners with a plumb (at least non-clipper bow) are not too far off what you are evolving the GSB into. Look at those. There is one on the WBRF site (tough shape), but when I first saw it I thought---it’s a GSB!! Hard to see in the trees, but....... http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/image.php?Id=24
cheers
[ 10-20-2005, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: OEX ]
WindHawk
10-20-2005, 01:29 PM
:cool:
BTW, I like the terracotta paint.
I've not taken the time to really look at the lines of the Peterson schooners. Most of the coasters I'd seen have a bigger transom than I'd want, and lots more freeboard back there. I'd also been under the impression that Peterson's schooners were, well, coasters. Not designed as much with open water in mind, as with short-ish hops from harbour to harbour. Capable in big water, certainly, but not designed for as much comfort out there as some more purpose-built designs.
I'll spend the time doing some more looking at them though ... if only to see where my evolving tastes take me.
Alan D. Hyde
10-20-2005, 01:52 PM
www.pragdata.com/philboat/SailTraining.html (http://www.pragdata.com/philboat/SailTraining.html)
That IS good.
Thanks, Bruce.
Alan
Maybe some day this boat will be as breath-taking as Papa!
http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/image.php?Id=437
is that Terracott or Red Lead? smile.gif I like it to, but red lead makes me feel like I am progressing on my boat even if i SEE IT ON SOME OTHER BOAT---GOTTA GET IT WHEN I CAN! :eek: .
Bruce! Where the #^$# did that come from! Gotta give a guy some warning.
Seriously, what GSB is that?
Sorry, thats an English Cutter on the WBRF site---went free last month. She is a Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter made as a yacht in the 20s. Too nice, yes?
It is in Greenport Long Island still.
cheers
[ 10-20-2005, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: OEX ]
Originally posted by OEX:
She is a Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter made as a yacht in the 20s. Too nice, yes?Yes. Much too nice.
Sigh.
brian.cunningham
10-20-2005, 04:01 PM
From thier site it has a retractable boom.
Which is different from the boomless lapper in thier recents ads in WB
http://www.coveyisland.com/gumbootfullsail.gif
http://www.coveyisland.com/gumboot.html
BTW Hull and Rig design: Nigel Irens Design http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif
EDIT
The boomless lapper in the ad is MaggieB
http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/nid_newproj.htm
http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/Schooner.gif
Which is the rig I'm hoping to put on my boat.
[ 10-20-2005, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]
Is that lower pic the “Fusion Schooner?”?
brian.cunningham
10-20-2005, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by OEX:
Is that lower pic the “Fusion Schooner?”?Yes. Quite nice looking isn't it.
BTW I bumped up my "overlapping sails on split rigs" thread to talk about it.
http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002774#000029
[ 10-20-2005, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]
Rick Tyler
10-20-2005, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by mmd:
John Steele's (Covey Island Boatworks prez) personal yacht, Papa I. I feel like the kid that doesn't get it in class. The workmanship looks first rate, and the details are exquisite -- you have to love that carved dolphin. I might have a different opinion after seeing the boat fully rigged. Disclaimer, disclaimer.
Am I the only one that thinks that the bow would look better on a cutter, and that it doesn't really go well with the stern? And that the coach roof seems to slope forward a lot, and will only get worse when she sits down on that painted waterline? Other than that -- bravo! bravo!
- Rick "Curmudgeon I guess" Tyler
Papa ohh mow mow.
I sailed a boat with windows in the pilot house like that, it was a swing open window to the galley (a 35 footer). I would incorporate that idea in any cruiser I designed. Those look a little big, I'm sure they're lexan.
Did he improve on the original?
http://www.antiguaclassics.com/images/99images/99water/margerit.jpg
[ 10-20-2005, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]
Paul Pless
10-20-2005, 09:34 PM
Did he improve on the original?
that's a hard one man, flush decks are so very nice
Steve McMahon
10-20-2005, 10:32 PM
I know John and have worked on Margarite T when he restored her. He and Covey Island do the highest caliber of work. But... Nope, I don't like the schooner rig on the cutter hull. Schooners have schooner shaped stems, Cutters have plumb stems, and no other rig really matters. ;) Of course my opinion is just that, my opinion.
Thanks for sharing the pics mmd.
iS IT JUST VISUAL, OR ACTUAL BALANCE ETC? It was very common to convert Oyster Sloops, Gloucester Sloop Boats, Bristol Channel Cutters, etc to Schooner rig. I agree 100% that a cutter is a cutter and looks far better that way. However, I have a 40 ft Oyster Sloop (topsail gaff sloop) from 1903 that had a boom about 36ft. I image that was a hell of a lot of sail to reef etc. In 1910 it was converted to a yawl, I image to deal with the extra sail area in a more manageable way. If these guys did that (tougher and more used to sailing without winches, etc than I am) then I can see that it was for a good reason.
The Smack Emma C Berry spent most 90% of her life as a schooner, and was re-rigged to a gaff sloop again in her last restoration, but its not sailed anymore and......
To stay a gaff cutter and be safe and sane I thought of Turner reefing gear and furling gear on the three main sails of the Gloucester Sloop-Boat, and have a high aspect (peak) gaff main to make up for a bit shorter boom to avoid crawling 10 ft off the stern to reef. I am thinking this to keep the gaff cutter and not go schooner. I like a cutter. That said the hull of the GSB was very much based on a schooner hull as was the Friendship sloop for that matter. The GSB was very fast and the friendship, while not fast was very well balanced for her job's needs.
So no a modern design level, is a schooner rig balanced differently to not work well on a hull that tends top have always been on a schooner?
Either way Papa needs a bowsprit in my opinion. Even the Grand Bank schooners w/out a bowsprit always look odd to me, aka Adventurer the Gloucester Schooner still with us.
Cheer, Bruce
Wilson Fitt
10-21-2005, 08:24 AM
Papa will have a bowsprit rigged to starboard of the stemhead.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid191/pc90b6f2a150fbe727b27eb6e1cb1f429/f1cca99f.jpg
I have been aboard the boat at most stages of construction and think that it's a magnificent and handsome vessel. This is the mother of all backyard boats.
John and his family have a lot of experience with Bristol Channel Cuttters including a transatlantic passage on Marguerite T. I think he chose the schooner rig because it's more manageable for a small crew.
Other than aesthetics, was there a reason why cutter and schooner bows from the same period developed to look different? For boats intended to do similar work, I mean.
Could it be as simple as cutter designers wanting to eke out a bit more waterline length in smaller boats? Maximising your LWL isn't so much of an issue if you're designing a 70 foot pilot schooner, or a 150 foot fisherman. More of an issue in a 40-50 foot cutter.
oh thank goodness on the bowsprit.
Don Z.
10-21-2005, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Paul Pless:
from the Covey Island Boatworks website:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> As a Nova Scotian he wanted a schooner rig to connect the design with the traditions of North America. If the schooner is regarded as the American rig, it would seem to be lovingly embraced even more so by our Canadian friends. ;)
Thanks for the pics of the boat mmd.</font>[/QUOTE]I guess I need to get a new map... I still have the old one that shows Canada as being on the North American continent...
Paul Pless
10-21-2005, 09:59 AM
Don, my comments were not meant to be divisive, but were rather ones of admiration.
Hughman
10-21-2005, 12:50 PM
Sweet! I'll hoist a smuggled ;) propeller porter in admiration!
Steve McMahon
10-21-2005, 10:08 PM
I may change my mind on the schooner rig/cutter hull. The more I look at the pictures, the more I like it. :cool: I guess I'm just used to "Bluenose" bow shapes on schooners.
BYW - Covey Island won an award last night as the Lunenburg County Business Excellence Exporter of the year. smile.gif It's certainly not the first award they've ever won, and it probably won't be the last.
The Company I work for won the catagory of Large Business.
brian.cunningham
10-22-2005, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by TomF:
Other than aesthetics, was there a reason why cutter and schooner bows from the same period developed to look different? For boats intended to do similar work, I mean.
Could it be as simple as cutter designers wanting to eke out a bit more waterline length in smaller boats? Maximising your LWL isn't so much of an issue if you're designing a 70 foot pilot schooner, or a 150 foot fisherman. More of an issue in a 40-50 foot cutter.I believe, and someone is sure to correct me if I'm wrong ;) , that it came about either as you stated, to fit in the available dock space, or it was to fit a regulation, taxes etc.
Retractable bowsprits are quite common now, since dockage is charged by the foot. Which has also resulted in some really ugly designs IMHO.
Running bowsprits or housing sprits are very pretty old.... docking maneuvering, etc is more difficult. Swedish Norwegian, Dutch English all these had them on their workboats through the 1800s to 1900s. Eric Ronnberg’s article on Gloucester Sloop Boats (WB#152) has a great pic of Vesta with a sword-fishing bowsprit that hit a wharf.
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