Whats the best way to bend a keel

[D Gobby]

I'm Building Bart a 15' day sailer designed by Al Mason. I have the frames completed and set up on the strong back. What is the best way to bend the keel into shape? It is 4 1/2" x 1 1/2" out of air dried Angelique. The piece is way to strong to try and bend it over the frames. Would the best way be to steam it and place it in a jig before setting it to the frames? How does Angelique steam? Any other ideas. This is my first boat and you guys have already given me lots of help. Thanks

Darrel

[ken mcclure]

The keel on my Eun Mara (the inner piece) is 1 1/2" thick. I laminated it out of 2 pieces of 3/4" stock.

Dunno on steaming angelique, but all woods I've tried have steamed ok.

[Greg H]

You're in luck! Al Mason's daughter regularly posts on the forum as A. Mason. She can probably tell you how it was intended to be built.
Good Luck

[A. Mason]

Sorry Greg, I know no more about building Bart than Darryl. I send him all the info I have on the design.

Al originally designed Bart for me with the idea that one of the NY area yards would do the building. I opted for a half-Arabian horse instead.

I know, I know, horrors!!! A horse instead of a boat!!! But what I knew at the time was that if the daysailer had been built, I would never have sailed her. Al would have found all kinds of excuses as to why he needed to take the boat out on every available occasion.

Al had a habit of buying stuff ostenibly specifically for me, that I never got to use. He was too busy "testing" the item.

Personally I've very pleased that Darryl has undertaken to actually build Bart. To my knowledge, he is the first person to have purchased plans and is following through with construction.

As a little assist to those who can help answer Darryl's question, Bart is very similar to the small one-designs of the day such as the Lightning or Blue Jay.

Hope this helps, Anita

[NormMessinger]

I've laminated keels but none are more than a few year old so I can't speak to how long they will last. Laminating is easy. Steaming a piece that long would discourage me.

--Norm

[On Vacation]

I am not familiar with the Bart, but I do part laminated and part solid. In the tight bends I resaw the width and bend and glue. You will find in some of the thicker keels and harder woods, you may need to cut more than one slice in it.

When you do this, you may wish to also cut you a small piece to replace the 1/8 inche or so saw cuts that are created in this piece. Lamination is being done in many cases in new and redo constructions.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p76d6ba4a23049cd4724fcd6a7f829cb8/fceffb68.jpg

[NormMessinger]

Ah, that reminds me, Mike. Part of the stem in Prairie Islander is solid and part laminated all from the same piece. I cut bandsaw kerfs from one end to the bend and left the rest sold. I then ripped pieces to fit in the kerfs, lathered the assembly with goop, bent and clamped. It worked great.

--Norm

[Mr.O]

I am currently in the process of building the Haven 12 1/2 and and in the process had to bend the keel at each end to fit the molds. The keel is about 8-9" wide in the middle and tapers down to about 2-3" at the ends. Itis made of green white oak. I steamed each end separately by wrapping it in plastic sheeting taped up into a bag. I then passed steam into the bag via a hose from my steamer and let it steam for about 1 1/2 hours. I then immediately clamped it down to the molds and let it sit for several days. It went along smooth as silk -no problems. Did the same at the other end and that too went well -no problem. Since that time I have found at the local hose store a plastic/rubber nylon?? 6-7" in diameter hose that has been ideal to replace the plastic bag in steaming.. I have used it with some of my planking. You might want to check the Haven builders site for pictures. Hope this helps. Jack

[ishmael]

I assume this piece only has to bend to the rocker of the bottom, with no extremes? Why are the frames not strong enough to support it? Perhaps some bracing from the center of the frames to the strong back would be in order?

I have no idea about steaming Angelique, anything that is dry is not going to steam as well as green. The steaming I've done with dry Honduran manhogany, while it worked, was not nearly as easy as say green white oak.

How long is the piece of stock and how severe is the bend? From what I picture, I think I'd be tempted to brace the framing, and jury rig a steamer, something like MR.O suggests. Some more description might help.

Anyone ever steam any Angelique?

Best of luck,

Jack

Another possibility, if you go with a jig, rather than bending over the frames, would be a very simple set of platforms to the profile of the keel, but over bent a bit. Then use weight to push the steamed piece down onto the platforms. If it's a simple fair curve, you might even get by with couple horses and and some cinder blocks.

[ 12-14-2002, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[D Gobby]

Thank you for the great ideas. Some info on the keel piece. It is 14' long and yes it is a simple fair curve following the rocker.Maybe 8" on both ends. I think it would follow the curve of the frames with out to much trouble and without steaming if only half the 1 1/2" thickness. I will add more support to the frames for bending which ever way I decide to go. Just thinking steam bending it rather than cutting it in half across the with. Just don't know how Angelique steams.The piece is air dried and was still fairly green 2 months ago. You could feel the moisture in the shavings after running it through the surface planer.
Thank you all and Anita its with great pleasure that I'm building this boat.

[ishmael]

I bet it will steam to that much curve just fine, over the frames. If you aren't going to do it right away, paint the ends if they haven't been, and maybe wrap the entire piece in some poly to keep it from drying any more. Wouldn't want to leave it like for a long time, but until you get ready to steam it, in fairly short order?

[Mrleft8]

What's all this talk about "Green white oak"? Is it green? or is it white?

[ishmael]

:D

[SailBoatDude]

Air dried Angelique steams quite well and is a fine material for the back bone. Do it and let us know how it turns out. Pictures please . . .

[WRB]

Make sure you steam it long enough, I broke a finger once when a similar piece I was steaming sprang back and caught my pinky. I eventually got it in place by using rope between the keel and the centerline board on the strongback, but if you have strong beams on your roof, you can hold it in place with a reversed sash clamp between the roof beam and keel, just be aware that the amount of preasure required to keep it in place can be quite dangerous.... For 4 1/2" thickness, you will have to steam for around 4-5 hours

[WRB]

Just realized, its only 1 1/2" thick... strike all of the above, it should bend really easy after about 1 1/2 hours in the steam box :rolleyes:

[ken mcclure]

Originally posted by WRB:
...I broke a finger once when a similar piece I was steaming sprang back and caught my pinky. I eventually got it in place by using rope between the keel and the centerline board on the strongback...All that for a pinky? You coulda done it with a popsicle stick and some duct tape..... :rolleyes:

[D Gobby]

Thanks to all who replied. I've supported the frames from the floors down to the strong back. Set up cross braces at each end to hold the keel down. I have steamed the keel and bent it in place over the frames. Slighty over bent at the stem. It seemed to bend ok and has a nice fair curve to it. The keel did not bend as easy as I had hoped but it did bend. How much spring back might I expect? and how long should I let it set before trying to remove the cross braces? I can work on the rabbet and chines without removing anything. Oh yeah one last question for now should I bolt or screw the keel to the floors. I hand planed on screwing the keel with sil bronze screws counter sunk using #12 2 1/2" any thoughts?
Thanks again Darrel
PS Anita did you get my e-mail with the pic?

[gunnar I am]

I dun-oh aboh bendin a keel ,but'if you wanna keel broken, me'n Joey"Fingers" can,les jus say arrange a liddle "accident". Know whut ohm sayin? :eek:

[SailBoatDude]

10% is typical for spring back, but I've seen 20% on a round top door jam I made a few years ago for a custom home for a rich couple. The diameter was tight for the material (5/4th's x 8" mahogany, but should have bent in easier then it worked out. I broke the first piece ($100 slice of wood) and the second got clamped to the form, that was ten percent under size, but sprang back an additional 10%. So, I cheated and made the arch end on a built out section, so you couldn't see the transition from radius to plumb as easily. No one noticed, but me, and the client loves their 7' x 9' entrance doors.

Wish projects like this would come up more often as it was $12,000 of double entry doors with jamb. Nice working first class material, which I can never afford in my own work.

[ishmael]

You didn't get an answer as to whether or not to go ahead and fasten the keel to the frames.

Think about it. If you see no reason you would want to take the keel off again then fasten, with the fasteners specified in the plans.

Fasten from the center of the boat toward the ends.

Jack

[True Love]

Anita -

I totally understand the choice of the half Arab over the boat. I had the sweetest little half Arab who begged to do anything asked of her. Fine horse - raised her from a birth. She also was a fiend for Coca Cola - all she had to do was see a can of Coke and she'd be in your pocket to get some. Couldn't stand Pepsi, though. Funny thing is, neither can I.

Cheers! -- TL