Boat Building In The Cold...How Do I Do It?

[Hitman]

Hi Everyone,

Once again, I need your advice good people. This forum is proving to be very usefull to me. Thanks to all who are helping me!

I live in the Pacific Northwest, USA, and the temperature in the winter here is mostly in the low 20's to high 40's F. In summer, doesn't get much above the 60's. There are only a few weeks a year in the 70's with some 80's. (When it's 80 degrees here, people think the world is ending...Ha!)

I'm concerned about building my boat in Wood / Epoxy / Fiberglass because all the epoxy manufacturers recommend application of epoxy only above 65 degrees F.

I will be building in my un-insulated garage. I want to build year-round as the boat will take me about a year to build. How do people build in a cold climate? I know people build here. Is there some way I can heat my garage? I've seen Kerosene heaters, and those propane patio heaters. Or should I use a free-standing wood stove? Or, would a couple of those electric oil-radiators be enough to do the job?

Can I use any of these in an enclosed garage without poisoning myself, or worse, blowing-up my boat...? When the garage door is closed, there is about a 1/2" space around the door (It lets in big nasty looking spiders...) Is this enough for ventalation purposes?

[Bill Perkins]

I built in a cold shed this winter and sent to your neck of the woods for System Three Epoxy . Check their website .The stuff cures reliably down to 35 deg .Also when coating wood you can recoat without sanding for some time and still get a chemical bond between coats .

I had a propane heater that would really kick out the BTUs when I lit it in the morning . I also had a kerosene space heater I'd light .When the shop got to 60 deg. I'd cut off the propane and the kerosene would maintain .I find I don't need more than 60 deg . if I'm working .

Yes you can asphyxiate yourself , I was in a rented drafty metal shed , no problems .If it's your own place maybe you should install a wall furnace , that's what I did in my basement .It's hooked up to city gas in my case and vents and draws combustion air from outside .Has a thermostat too . I got it from Granger for about $1000 .

[Thaddeus J. Van Gilder]

Or you could just carvel plank her up and forget about the temperature worries!!!!!

-Thad

[Ken Hutchins]

Did you refer to that as cold? :confused: That is mighty tropical to some of us. :cool:
I do all glueing etc, in my heated basement workshop, but the boat itself is out where it sometimes gets cold enough to freeze brass gronicles.
When necessary to have warmer conditions for work on the boat itself, wait for warmer days or cover selected areas with plastic, cardboard and or wood and put in a small electric heater.
Don't use anything that can blow up you and the boat or cause carbon monoxide poisoning.

[NormMessinger]

I'd think you could use System Three with their fast hardener most any time in your neck of the woods but in any case much of the work on your boat will not involve epoxy. Pay attention, schedule jobs that don't when you can't, if ya falla.

I built Prairie Islander out doors in eastern Nebraska and lost little time because of the weather.

[Carl Simmons]

It gets cold here in Indiana too! :(

I did a fair amount of epoxying during the winter between 40 and 50 degrees. The only thing I did differently was using a Fast hardner when it was cold and a Slow hardner during the summer.

Carl.

[JimD]

Hitman, I've worked a couple winters in a cold garage heated by one of those propane nozzles that fit on a bbq tank. You won't blow yourself up with epoxy fumes, but you may blow yourself up if you use highly volatile solvents like acetone. More likely you will asphixiate and poison yourself by burning the oxygen in the garage and replacing it with carbon monoxide. Wear a good respirator when epoxying and change the air regularly to keep the space oxygenated.

[Ian McColgin]

I built Leeward (back in the 70's) in unheated spaces in the winter in Astoria and Cannon Beach. Used WEST. No problems. Just let it sit a little longer.

[Stan Derelian]

Industrial Formulators in Burnaby, BC make an epoxy they call "Cold Cure". Cures down to 35F.

I don't know if its distributed in the States, but its worth a call.

[On Vacation]

Total wet out with epoxy that is fluid. Epoxy changes viscosity with the cooling of temperatures. And the big point is be PATIENT for curing times. Allow to cure before going on to the next step of lamination or movement of hull or parts laminated with epoxy. Use a respirator inside a closed area. This will be contered with many opinions, but this is important, if you have not used it before. Many skins are sensitve and uncured epoxy sanded is a silent killer to the body. Now I will sit back and allow for others to give their opinions. These are mine and only mine.

[gary porter]

Hitman, Is there any chance you could insulate your shop a bit?? That would make everything else much easier. Even so the notes above by Oyster are worth remembering and the resin will have to be kept warm or it will crystalize. I saw somewhere where one used an old refrigerator and a light bulb to keep the epoxy warm. If your resin does crystalize its much easier to rejuvinate it if you've purchased it in smaller containers like 2.5 gal as you have to heat the whole thing up using hot water. Anyway have fun and good luck.
Gary

[Steve Miller]

I live in Portland, OR and work in a sort of heated garage/shop. I keep it at about 60 degrees with a small oil filled electric heater that stays on all the time. Easier to keep it just warm than try to heat it up each time.

I use the System 3 epoxy and fast hardener. Works well below my 60 degrees but it is slow. I get overnight cure however even on coatings at 60 degrees.

Beware of propane or kerosene heaters. They put out tons of moisture when they burn. I use a kerosene heater in my greenhouse and it gets really wet unless I vent it right.

The rate is something like 3 gallons of water released by every 20lbs of propane burned and 1 gallon of water for every gallon of oil burned (though not exactly sure for kerosene).

In addition to all the water you get combustion by-products that will interfere with your bonds of epoxy, paint and varnish (and kill you sometimes).

A local guy out in the Cascade foothills uses a plain old wood stove to heat his shop. Makes good use of the little scraps of wood.

[Ruaridh]

I'm surprised no-one's come onto this thread to warn of the in-advisability of using epoxy outwith its design temperatures, from the point of view of its long-term structural integrity.
Not that I know anything more about it than from reading Gougeon Brother's book etc, but a lot of folks in the know seem to be pretty religious about using epoxy exactly as instructed.
Personally, I've used West Sytem many times in cold and less-than-ideal conditions and have NEVER had any problems other than slow cure times. I mostly use it 'belt and braces' style backed up with fasteners.
I did the deck of my folkboat with West & glass cloth over ply in a shed in Aberdeen in the winter, when it was most definitely cold enough to freeze off one's aforementioned gronicles. (Space couldn't be heated 'cos of hay stacked alongside!).
I figured structural problems weren't really an issue for this application. The worst problem for this type of job was the viscosity of the resin when cold, it was very difficult to wet out the cloth properly and get a smooth finish.
In fact it was enough of a pain that I swore I'd never do a big epoxy job in non-climate-controlled conditions again (but I probably will).
After a LONG time to cure (partly 'cos spread thinly) it all went off OK, with a large amount of amine blush. Once cleaned up and sanded lightly it was perfect and still is.
I'd say you'd probably be OK but definitely store / mix the epoxy at the right temperatures and consider trying to get some kind of heating if at all possible.
Like others said, if the resin crystallises simply rejuvinate it by heating the container gently with a hot air gun or sit it in a bucket of boiling water for a while. It comes back like new, and you can even revive clogged pumps etc. like this. Don't throw away a half gallon of it like I did before I found this out!!
Best of luck,
Ruaridh.

[On Vacation]

Read the first two lines in my previous post.

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Around the first week of December I began work on my Arch Davis Sanddollar and worked through our winter. My garage is attached and I parked outside for the winter. For heat I opened the side door into the house and the garage would gradually warm - and the house would gradually cool! (Yes, I am blessed with a VERY forbearing wife.) "Mommy, how come when we are inside this winter we leave our coats and boots ON?!!!"

I can assure you it was cold in the house many a time but the temps in the garage would slowly rise from around 35 up to 55 or so. Usually good for twenty degrees. I supplemented this with an electric space heater from HD and often could count on working in 55 degree temps. Hint: get a cheap thermometer and hang it on the wall.

This is the minimum for any epoxy work with System Three and by leaving the side door open at night (and space heater unplugged for safety!) it would usually cure and set up over night. I used the Medium Hardener and found it just right.

An often overlooked benefit to a cold garage is that it will keep your beer cold!

[ 04-17-2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Captain Pre-Capsize ]

[Bill Perkins]

The published minimum cure temp for their #1 Fast hardener is 35 deg.

[paul oman]

progressive epoxy polymers, inc (www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html) offers a non blushing Low Temp Cure (LTC 38) epoxy good down to about 35 or so degrees.

paul

[Carlsboats]

The folks her have pretty much solved your problems of dealing with epoxy in cold conditions. One more thing to watch: Humidity. If you are doing strip construction, and the wood is air dried, you could end up with a hull with enough moisture in it to create problems when the boat comes out into the sun (you do get that now and then, don't you?) and starts to bake.
I know -- my mahogany strip-built hull was put together in an open shed, and trailered to its launching site in mid-summer. A week on the concrete pad at the boat yard, and planks began to let go: Pow! Mostly not at the glue joints, but in the wood itself. She was shrinking as she dried out, to say the least. Over the next couple of years, we had to rip open a lot of cracks and fill them with wood feathers. Finally, many moons later, we have a bottle tight hull, but high humm-dittie taught us a lesson tht epoxy can't cure.