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martin schulz
04-12-2005, 06:27 AM
I made a (poor) joke in Brians thread about Hydroplanes. I thought a term like this must apply to "water planes" so I posted a pic of the dutch Dornier 24, which was a plane much used by the German Luftwaffe (Airforce) during WWII.

However, I think those "Flugboote" or "Wasserflugzeuge" are worth to be mentioned around here. So here is a short history summary:

In 1926 the Dutch Navy ordered a number of Dornier Wal flying boats to patrol the vasteness of the Dutch Indies, with distanses streching out sometimes more than from one side of Europe to the other. The Wal's performed good, but soon got outdated and in 1934 the Navy started an investigation into a succeeder for the Wal. Around that time Dornier-Metallbauten G.m.b.H. in Friedrichshafen made the first prototype for the Do-18, a modernized version of the Wal. The Do-18 did not meet up to the required standards of the Dutch Navy. C. Sanders, then officer 2nd class of the Navy, made up the requierements of the successor of the Wal. The new plane had to be bigger, equipped with three engines, none of these to use pusher propellers, a maximum speed of 315 km/h, be of an all-metal construction and comforatble enough for long distances.
With these specifications in hand the Dutch Navy went to a number of company's for their answer to the requirements. Fokker came up with the B.V, which was turned down, just like the design of the American Sikorsky company. Dornier's design, the P.14 was ready in 1935 and was the only of the three that could be ready in time to meet the requirements of the Dutch Navy. Before the year was over a detailed model was ready to be shown to the Dutch.
Very soon Dornier was able to make an offer, after which on August 6th 1936 the first contract was signed for the delivery of 6 flying boats to the Dutch Navy, getting the designation Do-24.

The Luftwaffe was also in need for a replacement for the old Wal flying boats in use with the Kustenfliegerstaffeln. The specifications that the RLM issued were almost on the same lines as those of the Dutch Navy and Dornier entered the P.14 project. Dornier now had competition of the Ha-138 design of the Hamburger Flugzeugbau (later Blohm und Voss), also a three engined flying boat.
It was decided to build four prototypes, the Do-24 V1 and Do-24 V2 for the RLM and the Do-24 V3 and Do-24 V4 for the Dutch. The last two were also the first of the Dutch order for six aircraft and were to build at Friedrichshafen as were the two RLM prototypes.

When Germany invaded The Netherlands on May 10th 1940 only 7 Do-24K’s were delivered by Aviolanda to The Dutch East Indies. 13 Do-24K-2’s were in various stages of building and the stocks were filled with parts for another 16 examples. There were enough Wright Cyclone engine for at least 11 Do-24’s. Still in May Oberingenieur Stellmann returned to Aviolanda with the RLM order to make the two most complete examples, the X-38 and X-39, airworthy. The interest came mainly from the German Seenotdienst that for a long time was eagerly awaiting such an aircraft like the Do-24 if not the Do-24 itself. The tactical units within the Luftwaffe had first choice concerning plane-choice and so the Seenotdienst had to make do with aging Heinkel He-59’s. Now they saw their chance clear to get their hands on the impounded Dutch Do-24’s.

http://www.dornier24.com/images/pictures/Do-24_p128.jpg

June 1940 Flugkapitan Karl Born, commander of Seenotflugkommando I Norderney, came to Aviolanda in Papendrecht with a few representatives of Dornier and factory testpilot Erich Gundermann. They came to check out the X-38. Born was thrilled he could get his hands on the do-24’s in the factory because this meant a vast modernisation of the Seenotdienst, Born even called the Do-24 the "wonder plane". As fast as they could the X-38 was made ready and was flown by pilots from the LZA (Luftzeugamt) to Travemunde. During this flight the X-38 still had the Dutch camouflage, but was equipped with German nationality markings and the registration D-AFBT. The gunturrets were removed because the pilots of the Seenotdienst were under the impression they were protected by the flag of the International Red Cross. Small changes were made so the Do-24 could be used in air-sea rescue. July 19th 1940 the former X-38, now completely painted white with red crosses on the fuselage, was delivered to Seenotkommando I (Seenotstaffel 4). Because the Seenotdienst was on paper a civilian organisation the Do-24 had to be equipped with with a civilian registration and because of reasons unknown the registration D-AFBT was cancelled and D-AEAV was applied.
In the same way as the X-38 the X-39 arrived at Norderney with the registration D-APDA. Both aircraft were equipped with American Wright Cyclone’s and were the pride of the Seenotdienst, now it was only time to wait for the first operational mission. Read all about that first mission here.

http://www.dornier24.com/images/pictures/Do-24_p251.jpg

September three more arrived at the LZA at Travemunde followed by four in October. The civilian registration and white painting had by that time long vanished because the English still tried to shoot the aircraft down and on too many occasions did with the loss of many lives, which also included English military personel.
At least 13 Do-24N-1’s were delivered to the Luftwaffe in this style. When the stock of Wright Cyclone’s had run dry the Do-24’s were equipped with BMW 132N radials delivering 685 hp and thus the Do-24T-1 was born.

http://www.dornier24.com/images/pictures/Do-24_p246.jpg

All information taken from www.dornier24.com (http://www.dornier24.com[/i])

The grandson of the founder Claude Dornier Iren Dornier still flys the Do 24 ATT on shows. The restored Do 24 ATT is equipped with modern instruments and engines (Pratt & Whitney Turboprop). This is the only still active plane.

http://www.bredow-web.de/ILA_2004/Traditionsflugzeuge/Dornier_Do-24/DO-24-1.JPG

http://www.bredow-web.de/ILA_2004/Traditionsflugzeuge/Dornier_Do-24/DO-24-Ansicht2.JPG

martin schulz
04-12-2005, 06:31 AM
I wonder if the WB has this kit in stock :D

http://www.dornier24.com/images/pictures/p14.jpg

Hwyl
04-12-2005, 06:44 AM
There is a continuation of companies near here that want to make flyingboats. There are lots of "float planes" but not many modern planes with hulls designed to float.

They seem to have a constant shortage of money.

http://www.centaurseaplane.com/images/studio3.jpg

Norske3
04-12-2005, 07:24 AM
LOVE IT..Dornier...my kind of boat...one you can transport without a trailer.Another favorite is the PBY Catalina.Great WS here...excellent profile drawings in color.

www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/Catalina.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/Catalina.htm) file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/kenneth%20moe/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/Catalina.jpg

[ 04-12-2005, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

Stu Fyfe
04-12-2005, 08:38 AM
This is the Martin PBM. My Dad was a crew man on one in WWII.
http://www.compass.dircon.co.uk/Mariner.jpg
I wonder if the plans are still avaiable? What do you think? Glued lap or strip plank?

[ 04-12-2005, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Stu Fyfe ]

Norske3
04-12-2005, 11:21 AM
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/kenneth%20moe/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/Gruman%20Turbine%201948.jpg

Grumman (turbine engines) built 1948.

Norske3
04-12-2005, 11:26 AM
So you want to build a boat that flys...saving the cost an bother of trailer transport.. :D ...start with this WS.

www.seawings.co.uk (http://www.seawings.co.uk)

[ 04-12-2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-12-2005, 11:40 AM
The Last Word:

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/PRPhotos/SAROPrincess.jpg

The SARO Princess. Pressurised, turboprop, very long range. Then they built Heathrow Airport and lost interest in flying boats.

Three were built, and lasted for years because NASA was interested in them for hauling bits of Saturn booster. I remember seeing one at Cowes.

martin schulz
04-12-2005, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
The Last WordNope!

No honestly Andrew - the "Last Word" definetely belongs to Howard Hughes "Spruce Goose" (I wonder why our american friends haven't mentioned her):

http://homepages.tesco.net/~paul.crossley/goose/goose5.jpg

I am a bit lost when it comes to the history of that "flying boat". I only remember her from childhood memories when she was the essential part of a trading card collection

Norske3
04-12-2005, 12:06 PM
And the "first word" in American luxury fly boats....built by a Russian. :D file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/kenneth%20moe/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/S42%20Fly%20boat.jpg

[ 04-12-2005, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

Norske3
04-12-2005, 12:09 PM
Martin...Andrew...THAT is not a flying boat...its a FLYING SHIP! :D ....it should have been name the "SPRUCE TITANIC".

Norske3
04-12-2005, 12:17 PM
The Luftwaffe Flying Boat EXCELLENT WS...Dornier Do 24

web page (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/seaplane.html) file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/kenneth%20moe/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/GERMAN%20FLYING%20BOAT.jpg file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/kenneth%20moe/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/Dornier%20sea%20plane.jpg

[ 04-12-2005, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

Andrew Craig-Bennett
04-12-2005, 12:45 PM
The Princess boats were designed and built later than the "Spruce Goose", and were far more advanced as aircraft (they actually flew, properly, and could be piloted by normal people!) so I claim them to have been the "Last Word"!

SARO was a very interesting company; it had a Mach 2 rocket-plus-jet powered fighter prototype, the SR53, in the mid-50's, here it is:

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/MilitaryJets/SR53.jpg

The scaled up version, the SR 177, was a sort of British X-15, but got cancelled, as we ran out of money.

But perhaps the real "Last Word in Flying Boats" is this one, also a SARO product:

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/2954.jpg

Yes, folks, that really is a jet fighter flying boat, the SR A1. Somewhere there is a Beken photograph of one screaming over the mastheads of Sacred Cowes, inverted .

What happened to SARO? They lost interest in aircraft.. and invented the hovercraft!

[ 04-12-2005, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

Norske3
04-12-2005, 01:19 PM
Not to mention this one folks...Convair Sea Dart. http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Kivilahti/3753L-1.jpg file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/kenneth%20moe/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/Sea%20Dart%20at%20sea.jpg

[ 04-12-2005, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

Meerkat
04-12-2005, 01:34 PM
One of the big reasons the military lost interest in flying watercraft was that the jet engines of the day had a nasty habbit of coming apart if they ingested too much spray! This tended to reduce flight times to an unacceptable extent! ;)

Martin had a contract to build a 4-engine jet powered flying boat after WW II, but it didn't go far.

[ 04-12-2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

seafox
04-12-2005, 04:33 PM
what is wrong with pusher props?
wasn't one of the ww2 dorner flying boats equiped with a wing top puller engine and a pusher in line and I am thinking thir was a 4 engine plane that also used tractor and pusher engins in the same nellices?

after watching the movie always and the use the PBY catalina with the load on the fly from a lake I wish the us goverment would invest in a fleet of 100 or 200 C 130 size flying boats for firefighting duties. it seems that a group atack by 20 planes should be able to stop most fires cold

Stu Fyfe
04-12-2005, 05:02 PM
The Martin PBM' also used JATO (Jet Assisted Take Off)
http://www.vpnavy.org/pbm/vp47pbm_02_11aug2000.jpg