another mystery disaster

[Tom Lathrop]

Last Sunday, a boat went down on the Neuse River just off our town. The boat was brand new and operated by a seemingly capable crew of two. No answers as yet and it has been a week.

http://www.towndock.net/boatdeliverydeath.html

Since there is no hazard in that area other than the navigation mark, we wonder if they might have set it in the GPS and then not pay attention. The water and wind were rough but that should have been no problem to a boat designed for offshore work.

I also wonder if some of teh building practices shown in the link below could been a factor? :(

[Dolly Varden]

I would think they were pooped by a wave, maybe by suprise, the cockpit and cabin flooded and down they went

Dutch

[ishmael]

I usually think collision with something mostly submerged, like a log, or even a container off a ship. Something quick, that put a sizable hole in the hull and maybe threw the crew down, knocking them out. A look at the boat will tell a lot, I expect.

Reliance on GPS tends to mean 'eye time' on the water is a lot less, though if it was rough spotting a mostly-submerged object would have been difficult.

Too bad. These two sound like they were pretty experienced. It can happen to anyone.

[ 02-13-2006, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[RonW]

Tom:
Are you familar with these 2 websites.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/

http://marinesurvey.com/

These sites are by David Pascoe a marine surveyor, he has a lot of very informative articles. And is not the least bit shy about disscussing some of the shoddy workmanship in modern fiberglass boats, as to poor cores and thin skins as well as poor designs all the way around. Intersting and informative reading.

[Tom Lathrop]

Ron,

I have read Pascoe's site. He seems to be a little controversal in some parts of the industry but he is probably more right than wrong on most issues. I am not very knowleageable in composite hull layup schedules but I would be very skeptical about buying any boat that was built with the scantlings shown in the photos on the link I gave.

On the accident, this occured in inshore water with the boat going into a stiff Northwest wind on a shallow river. Waves get real nasty but not very high. My home water so I'm very familiar with it. I also favor the boat running into something that tore a big hole to make the boat go so quickly that they did not have time to send an SOS. Expert assistance was only 1 1/2 miles away.

Hurricane Ophelia took out an entrance mark to one of our channels last fall which became a deadhead that a friend hit with his 1950's Chris Craft runabout. Knocked a hole in the bottom almost as big as your head but he was able to speed to the ramp in time to rescue it before it sank. Luckily there were some construction workers there to hold the boat up while he backed the trailer under it. The point is that it must have been something catastrophic to sink an offshore fisherman so fast.

I will report when the facts are in. Divers have not been able to spend enough time in the rough and cold water so far to get a handle on it.

[Hwyl]

My last couple of deliveries I've had problems with water makers and air conditioners. The plumbing was such that the sea cocks had to be left open, they were not capable of being isolated. There were brittle plastic fittings ad unsupported hoses, all installed at high end yards.

There are so many outflows with these systems that it's difficult to spot if a bilge pumpe is cycling.

My guess would be a failure in plumbing.

[Alan D. Hyde]

I've heard a story, a while back, about someone using a buoy for a GPS waypoint on their autopilot, then, not paying attention later--- and hitting it head on...

Alan

[Victor]

We've all hit things in the water. After reading Pascoe, one wonders if this was one of those wonder hulls made of "special composites". Why else would any boat sink so quickly after a collision with a floating object? When I see the astronimical prices at the boat shows I can only think caveat emptor, you're not only paying top dollar, you're paying top dollar for crap. Gelcoat can make anything look good.

[ 02-13-2006, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Victor ]

[ishmael]

My guess would be a failure in plumbing. I don't think that, because it was so quick.

A burst unworthy fitting would allow a call for help, a notice. This boat went down, quick. Boats go down when the hull fails catasrophically, not without notice, when a hull fitting quits. Two cents.

[RonW]

I will venture to say that a lot of the problem is consumer driven. More and more people want bigger boats, that go very fast and includes all the luxuries of home.Since rougly speaking speed is a factor of horsepower versus weight, something has to give.
So manufactures are trying to make larger boats with more luxury items included, and at the same time increase speed,so they are trying to save weight on the hulls.Of course oil prices are increasing material prices as well.Another problem in the profit margin.
We all remember the fiberglass hulls of the 60's and 70's, and a little 18 ft. skiff weighed a ton, literally. But you could beat on it with a sledge hammer, multiple layers of layup which is too costly in materials and workmanship today. Plus too heavy for large fast boats.
It is like Pascoe says, we have a little storm and you go down to the harbor and half the new modern fiberglass core boats are sinking, with big holes in their sides, and you can literally pull chunks of the boat off.
I think these light weight core boats will die out, the insurance companies will see to that.
Since the boat that sank was a 35fter, it would be interesting to see a weight and cost comparison as to light weight core, heavy glass layup, WOOD, welded aluminum and steel.
A more substantial hull with less top end speed.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Ron's right.

Look at the hull of an old Pearson Triton or an original Chris-Craft Commodore.

Bullet-proof!

Alan

[Tom Lathrop]

My first thought was the same as Ron. They may have hit Garbacon Shoal mark which is a big tripod. There is normally nothing else within a mile to hit out there.

However, looking at some of the rogues gallery photos, and knowing what those Neuse River square waves can feel like at speed, I wonder about a hull rupture from hard banging into the waves. These people are supposed to be better than that though. We'll see.

[ 02-13-2006, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Tom Lathrop ]

[mdevour]

Originally posted by RonW:
We all remember the fiberglass hulls of the 60's and 70's, and a little 18 ft. skiff weighed a ton, literally. But you could beat on it with a sledge hammer, multiple layers of layup which is too costly in materials and workmanship today.I have one of those. A '63 vintage sloop built by George Hinterhoeller in Ontario, called a Shark 24. If I remember right, something like 5/8" of laid glass at the bilge and 3/8" at the sheer. There are some thin-ish areas to the deck here and there, but no cores anywhere.

It's held up pretty well for 43 year old frozen snot.

Mike

[John B]

I winter race on a mid seventies foam core !glass boat with massive scantlings. One 2 handed race ( I wasn't aboard) he was t boned just forward of the cockpit by another race yacht in a port starboard. As the momentum drifted them apart, Tony and Mike looked at the other boat( which had stopped dead... whole stem gone down nearly to the waterline, forestay , jib and stem fitting waving in the breeze, anchor locker exposed and the rig in jeopardy. One of them rushed below to check and they stayed sheeted on to keep the topsides high. You can imagine the expressions and the stress/humour when they discovered that they literally were scratched. No holes, no damage into the core.. scratched paint. That boat will sell cheap as chips ,yet as a hull its capable of going around the world.
I raise that subject whenever he wavers and talks about Bavarias.

[ishmael]

Scantlings, an issue, no doubt. But even a stout pleasure boat hull at thirty knots, running into something, square off, is going to give.

That's what happened here, from the sound of it, I'm pretty sure.

[Tom Lathrop]

Divers are supposed to try again today. Weather is not balmy but should be good enough for a look see.

[John B]

Have you guys seen the video doing the rounds. A 40 ft black schooner...perhaps an Alden, being run down by a ship of some sort. Video taken from the bow of the ship, schooner motors straight into it, tries to veer away at the last few seconds but is run down.
Its come up on a NZ yachting site .

[ishmael]

Um, I haven't seen that, John. But this accident don't compute that way, likely. Broad daylight and clear, the boat was probably on auto-pilot, the crew having a snack, or a beer.

It well might have plowed into the mark set in the autopilot.

Why go out on the water? To sit in a cozy cockpit and eat cheese? Not saying that happened here, but it's all too common. I can eat cheese much more comfortably in my living room, thank you.

It's in my bones, from early training, you keep a watch.

[ 02-14-2006, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Art Read]

Actually, Jack, the schooner wreck was even worse than John describes. Happened in the early eighties in Hyannis Harbor. Nantucket ferry (outbound?) Sunny calm weather, passengers video taping forward over the bow. As the footage begins you can see the schooner approaching head on, slightly to port and still quite a ways off. Several people at least in the cockpit. For God knows what reason, the schooner suddenly swings across the ferry's bow intending to pass down the starboard side instead. Might even have pulled it off, but he must have had second thoughts and swung back again until he was clear. Getting closer now. Just as the schooner is about to disappear from view under the bow, you just have enough time to see him frantically swing across the bows AGAIN! Then the hull disappears and all you can see are the masts passing in front of the ferry. The passengers on the deck start yelling, you can hear wood splintering and then the masts topple towards each other before falling away from the bow. The camera pans into the water alongside the ferry's starboard side as they pass and all you see in the water are the masts and several of the schooner's crew treading water.

Never did hear a good explanation. If I had to guess, I'd assume they were meeting at a narrow spot in the channel and the schooner skipper felt the starboard passing would have given him a wider berth. Then he chickened out half way across. With the ferry right on top of him he MUST have convinced himself that he was going to hit the rocks and panicked. I think I'd have chosen the rock in favor of the "hard place"... Can't remember the name of the schooner, but she was well known and well regarded by the locals. Maybe Ian remembers the details better than me?

[ 02-14-2006, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[John B]

I only mentioned incidentally Jack.. because of the type of thread.
Thanks for the history Art... first time I saw it was a couple of days ago. I don't know why its just popped up like that. Sent a chill down my spine " what the hell is he doing"

[ 02-14-2006, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Art Read]

Got a link, John? I haven't seen that footage since the orginal local news broadcasts of it. Might be "instructive" to watch again, yes? ;)

[John B]

Page 2 of this thread Art.
Crew.org (http://crew.net.nz/newForum/viewtopic.php?t=1163)
There's a link there in the thread but I warn you. Its one of those sites that has less than salubrious ' advertisments' around it.

[ 02-14-2006, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Hwyl]

http://www.gkko.com/videos/2081/ferry-vs-sail-boat

[Alan D. Hyde]

This link MAY bypass the pop-ups...

http://69.46.24.198/~gkko/media/2081

Nope... :(

*.*.*

Alan

[ 02-14-2006, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I can't open the original link... What happened?

[Alan D. Hyde]

This works...

http://www.gkko.com/videos/2081/ferry-vs-sail-boat

*.*.*

Alan

[ishmael]

Not commenting on anything but this wreck. The accident cited sounds like plain dumb.

And who is free of stupidty? The accident that effectively shut down the Apprenticeshop in Bath comes to mind. I've told it before, but it's worth repeating, because it was the catalyst that changed things.

No engine, sail training ship Vernon Langille, a thirty five foot LOA Tancook Whaler. Sailing with a guest skip, and a crew of highschoolers, on the Kennebec River. They missed a tack, just upriver of the bridge, got swept spars down, the entire crew in the water. No one died, but they might have. Only a few know this. I wasn't there, but arrived shortly after, and that's why Lance Lee was cashiered.

So, could I have missed that tack? You bet I could have. Is going in boats inherently dangerous? Yep. And not keeping watch makes it more so.

We don't have an argument, eh?

[dmede]

Originally posted by ishmael:
Reliance on GPS tends to mean 'eye time' on the water is a lot less, though if it was rough spotting a mostly-submerged object would have been difficult.
How so? Is this in refernce to using a GPS versus a chart or versus navigation aides on the water (coastal landmarks, buoys & markers)?

[Art Read]

Thanks guys! But that "edited" clip doesn't really do it justice. That was the SECOND time he tried to make that same turn! Ever had a squirrel dart across the road in front of you, chicken out, dart back to safety and then leap right under your front tires as you're right on him? That's what this made me think of the first time I saw it. I think it was my first summer as skipper of HINDU, and it was all we could talk about for days... It's like they had a death wish! What really gets me is how "calm" they all looked... ('Cept for that guy bailing out off the transom just before impact... 'Spose that was the skipper?)

[ishmael]

Simple, dmede. Take your eyes off the water, which good DR demands, rely on electronics, and you are bound to run into things more frequently.

[Art Read]

Actually, Jack has a point, but I think its more of a GPS/Chart plotter/Autopilot driven powerboat phenomenon. (Not to say that plenty of sail-boaters aren't guilty as well. 'Specially when under power.)

[dmede]

ish, still not sure I follow. How is looking down at your GPS screen any different from looking down at your chart?

The GPS can be mounted high and up front for quick glances without having to look too far away. And no time spent working out location on a chart while underway should increase 'eye time' on the water not decrease it.

Auto-piot with GPS is another thing. Is that what you're refering to?

[ 02-14-2006, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: dmede ]

[mmd]

I disagree with the postulation that the accident that befell the sportfisherman had to be sudden and catastrophic. Might I propose a variant scenario:

As the vessel makes its way down-river, and unbeknownst to the occupants, a through-hull fitting fails and the vessel begins to take on water. As this type of boat trims heavily by the stern when underway at speed, the accumulating water is confined to the extreme after end of the hull, away from the main bilge pump in the sump forward of the engines. Dynamic lift supports the increasing weight of the bilge water such that the crew does not notice the increase in trim nor the gradual decrease in speed for a while. When they do notice the problem, they throttle down to allow a better inspection to be carried out. As the forward momentum scrubs away and the bow settles into the water as dynamic lift decreases, the accumulated bilge water - possibly a hundred gallons or more - surges forward in the engine compartment. This submerges the batteries and shorts out the electrical system. As there are no hand-held radios carried aboard, and there is not a dedicated battery in the nav station for the radios, with the loss of power all communications are dead. Without main power, the bilge pumps cannot work. The boat is dead in the water, taking on water, and the manual bilge pump is overwhelmed. Adding to the dire situation is the fact that as more and more water floods the bilge, the stability of the vessel is being compromised by reduced buoyancy and the free-surface effect of the water in the hull. On top of all that, it is their bad luck to have travelled far enough down river that they are now exposed to the heavier waves of the river mouth. They are sinking within sight of land, but without power they have neither the ability to pump nor call for help. Finally the boat floods to the point that she rolls far enough at the right time that she takes a sea over the aft bulwarks - rather low on this type of boat to aid landing fish - and she's done for. She founders by the stern and the crew are pitched into the sea.

Granted, this is just speculation, but I believe it to be a plausible one. I nearly suffered a similar fate on a similar boat when a leaking deck hatch combined with a clogged limber hole while pounding through heavy weather conspired to admit about 200 gallons of seawater into the bilges before we noticed the problem. At the time I was approximately 150 miles offshore and I want to tell you it was a very nervous time until we discoverd the cause and made headway with the pumps. Fortunately, I maintained speed to keep the bow up and the water aft. Of course, it was a pitch black night when this occurred, just to add to the drama. :eek:

[Alan D. Hyde]

That makes sense, Michael.

It would be a grave set of circumstances to confront while offshore.

What do you now design into your boats (of this type) to minmimize the chances of this ever happening again? A dedicated nav. station battery, high enough up, and a bilge pump intake/alarm aft? What else? Water-resistant bulkheads?

Alan

[ 02-14-2006, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Gary E]

Yes, that happens a lot and why I allways had a pump in the stern with an indicator light on the bridge to tell me the pump was running. In a wood boat, I expected an ocasional cycle due to normal drips from the shafts, but if that light was on very often, I wanted to know why.

[ishmael]

Let's see what examination of the boat says.

[Tom Lathrop]

Interesting scenario Michael but it does not fit this situation.

They were about 16 miles south of the Hobucken ditch where they would have been running slow. If they had a serious leak problem there, they would have been blind not to notice it.

At the point of the accident, the river runs east-west and the wind was gusting to 30 out of the northwest. The wind was just off their starboard bow and the waves would have been very nasty and mainly following the river or head on to their path. Even a 35 foot sport fisherman would have been rough if they were going fast. We don't know where the batteries were located but I have had the experience to have batteries covered with that same sound water and they still provided power.

The widow of one of the men said that they routinely carried both cellphones and handheld VHF radios when making deliveries. Unless they were incapacitated by a crash of some kind, it seems unlikely that they would not have gotten off some kind of distress call. Hobucken Coast Guard station is less than 20 miles from Garbacon Light and a Towboat US dock is about 1 1/2 miles away and practically in sight.

This is all interesting but we all may be way off the mark. Our boating community is closely following the events but know very little at this point.

[ishmael]

"Ish, still not sure I follow. How is looking down at your GPS screen any different from looking down at your chart?"

I can only tell you what I learned. Someone is always on deck. It doesn't follow with a lone sailor in mid-Atlantic, but otherwise, an eye on deck. It's actually written into the rules, a good look out is basic.

I make allowances for lone voyagers, but those voyaging in tandem better watch.

[RonW]

Tom; when your boating community does find out what the problem was,please let us know. I am curious and have been reading about and seeing these light weight core boats, and as you, think they are under engineered.Appearantly David Pascoe the marine surveyor thinks so too.
Here is I think the site for the manufacturer.

http://www.carolinaclassicboat.com/35/cc35b.html

Did not see a weight for the 35 footer, but did see that they listed a 450 horse cummins and a speed of over 40 m.p.h. My math says to do that speed with that horse, the gross weight (everything) would have to be around 8,000 lbs. And that seems awfully light for a 35 footer, by 2 or 3 tons light.
Maybe the manufacturer has just pushed the envelope too far for light weight and high speed. But foam with a little plastic on each side isn't all that heavy, and maybe not all that strong.
Or so is my guesstimation.

[mmd]

Tom, I was not trying to give a difinitive explanation of this accident, but merely to propose a plausible - albeit fictional - alternate scenario to that of instant catastrophic failure. I, too, will be interested to hear of the Coast Guard findings.

As for the viability of foam-core construction, I believe that the issue is not that such boats are built too lightly, but that the buying public does not fully appreciate the inherant risk in operating such light craft. If you want to go fast at relatively low cost (horsepower), there is risk involved due to the compromises made to achieve the required HP/weight ratio. If you want bulletproof, you must accept greater weight and therefore lower speed, or pay more for significantly greater horsepower. The problem arises when John Q. Boater feels as comfortable in a lightweight speedster as he would in a tank.

A land-bound example of this would be that if you want a high-performance, fast vehicle for moderate cost, a Kawasaki Ninja motorcycle will go 160 mph for a mere $12,000 or so. The risk is that if you hit something at 100 mph the chances of survival are much less that if you had been driving a $60,000 Corvette.

[Tom Lathrop]

Exactly Michael. I'm sure we all took it that way. I just thought I'd add a bit of local knowlege to the equation.

I had an Indian back in the 60's and sold it in order to be able to reach the age I am now. :D

[Tom Lathrop]

I have been away for a few days and have not had a chance to look at the boat which is now at a local boatyard after being recovered by divers.

-------------------
Captain Dean Lee, Coast Guard Sector Commander for NC, says a dive to the boat Tuesday revealed that “the engine hatch was upright, the key to one engine was off, and the throttles were in neutral.”

That could indicate, Lee says, that the crew of the boat was looking in to something going on in the engine room at the time the boat sank. But he stresses that that’s just speculation at this point.

The exterior of the boat did not show any “structural damage.” Lee told TownDock.net. “There was no evidence that it collided (with something) or had a hole in it.”
__________________

It's still a mystery but most of us were wrong in speculating that there must have been a structural catastropy.

Also reported but not verified--Under normal, floating conditions, the boat (a Carolina Classic 35) weighed 30,000 pounds ‘wet’ that is, with a supply of fuel and water on board; or 24,500 dry. This doesn't sound like a "lightweight".

[ 02-18-2006, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Tom Lathrop ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

Have the remains of "the crew of two" been located?

What was their background?

How cold was the water?

Alan

[Tom Lathrop]

The latest info from the Coast Guard is at:

http://www.towndock.net/boatdeliverydeath_update4.html

It is still a mystery to me. I have used hand held radios in that area for many years and found no differences from other areas. The TowBoat US station is about 1 1/2miles from the sinking area, almost all over water.

[Alan D. Hyde]

A puzzlement, still... :(

Alan

[Gary E]

Tom,
Is it possible that the pumps never worked?

Even if the gland were to fall off would not the pumps keep it floating?

Something smell's here...a coverup maybe?

Will the competetors use this as a reason to not buy from that builder?... I would think so. If they cant find out why it sunk, why should I trust them on the next one.

[ 03-07-2006, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[WindHawk]

There was a line of speed demon powerboats made in the 1970's by the name of Checkmate. I don't know if they still make them, but I wouldn't be too surprised (I just checked, they are still in business). A friend had one, and it is just about the exact antithesis of what fun on the water is to me. Anyway, two guys were on the Detroit River doing 45-50 knots in choppy water, and the boat split in two along the keel, and both men were lost.

I've never quite understood how a boat that was presumably glassed in a mold could literly split in two along the keel. Having the deck fly off makes sense (well, not actually, but there is a joint). It implies that a crack developed and it tore in two from the pounding. There was the requisite lawsuit, and the Detroit papers followed the story closely. The widow's won, but likely didn't collect much money. Although the company is boasting of their "40 years of experience building perfomance boats."

[Tom Lathrop]

Coast Guard says it was a packing gland on one of the prop shafts. Makes no sense to me but that is what they say. They must not have noticed it until the water got so high as to prevent the engines from running?

How much water can come in through a shaft seal? More than a normal bilge pump can handle? Was there a bilge pump? Was a hose installed with no clamps or inadequate clamps? Why did the radios not work over a range of 1 1/2 miles? No dinghy or life raft? Too many unanswered questions.

They probably died from hypothermia trying to swim to shore (maybe 1/3 mile) in the cold water. Sad case but should be a object lesson even in our inshore waters.

[mmd]

Assuming that the boat had a 2" shaft in a 3" shaft tube, if it blew out the shaft gland completely, the boat would take on water at a rate of about 2000 gph, and I'll stand by my hypothesis of what happened if I can change "through-hull" to "shaft gland". Can't explain the hand-held radio/cellphone failure, though.

[Ken Hutchins]

This brings up my thoughts about the packing glands, I prefer the old fashioned packing gland it weeps and needs occasional adjustment but will hold together verses the new type of seal that will not weep but has many more parts and when it does crap out it will have a major leak. It just seems to me that a gland needing the occasional adjustment will make the boater more aware of the condition of it than something that will probably never be looked at until it's too late.

[Ian McColgin]

The modern dripless are really quite wonderful. Either type may be subject to catastrophic failure if the rubber tubing comes loose or is damaged.

A local guy did an amazingly inappropriate job of locating a zinc on his shaft and compromised the cutless bearing's ability to get water for its lubrication.

The bearing managed to run dry, overheat, and get sucked right down the shaft tube so hard is pushed the rubber tube and stuffing box right off and admitting Nantucket Sound at a great rate.

Luckily the operator heard the noise, looked, and made for shore in time to beach before sinking.