CQR Anchor Bow Roller [Archive] - The WoodenBoat Forum

NormMessinger

06-12-2003, 05:37 PM

I cobbled togeather some scrap boards and a trailer roller to see if I can figure out how to carry the 15 lb CQR anchor properly on Prairie Islander. This is the result:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid65/pf282cca1fd78db6371810acedf90eb7b/fbf0c992.jpg

I would be most appreciative of any suggestions that might be offered. Am I even close? There are problems I have not yet considered such as how to keep the tip of the plow from banging against the hull. I'm thinking that if something like this is the right way to go I thought I would mount it as close to the bow sprit as possible and angle it toward the samson post. Then again that may cause it to drop on the "carp striker." Some sort of bail over the top of the anchor will be required. West Marine sells replacement rollers which might be better than the one in the mock up. I'm thinking it should be made from manogany to match the rest of the boat but will 5/8" be strong enough. I could weld one up from steel, too.

A couple of other views:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid65/p172f3a2689401e0b928c7863ff567508/fbf0c968.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid65/pa58659cd55d79268f4d77dc6efb6c8d1/fbf0c8b4.jpg

Thanks.

Donn

06-12-2003, 06:12 PM

Norm...make the roller arm longer, angle it a little more to starboard, and be sure to attach the rode before deployment. :D

paladin

06-12-2003, 06:32 PM

Like Donn Sez.....and then put a anchor chain "latch" to secure the anchor chain once the anchor is taut on the roller...and you might want to put a bale on top of the mechanism to prevent the chain jumpung track...then put a piece of sacrificial teak or other hardwood under the chain to prevent damage to the deck when retrieving the anchor.....

gary porter

06-12-2003, 06:41 PM

Norm, you certainly have the right idea and as Donn & Paladin said it needs to be longer and that will keep it from hitting the hull. However, be careful with building the wooden ones as they tend to not hold up under side loads. I have a friend who has had two of them brake. They work fine under normal load but if you get into a situation where wind or current or the combination cause an abnormal side load. Personally I wouldn't bother as they make very good stainless steel ones ready to go and they don't break. In any case if you want the wooden one pick some good stout white oak and pay attention to the grain. Good Luck.
Gary

paladin

06-12-2003, 06:50 PM

as I wuz trying to say in a second message when lightning shut me down......and the doggone UPS didn't wurk......
The stainless systems are really good and not so expensive plus I wuz asking if you like santa to send you a 15 lb. danforth with some chain attached? :D

Bruce Hooke

06-12-2003, 07:01 PM

In addition to the side load mentioned by Gary, realize that when the anchor is set and there are waves lifting the bow of the boat, the downward force on that roller as the boat crests a wave can be quite large. Imagine yourself on a lee shore with a 4' sea lifting the bow so that it jerks the chain tight as each wave goes under you...This is, I think, a place for metal rather than wood.

FWIW - My experience with rollers and CQR's is that unless you go to a two roller setup with the first roller a little below and in front of the second roller, you have to lift the anchor up onto the roller once the end of the anchor gets to the roller. This is not an issue if you are pulling the anchor up by hand because you will naturally be pulling from somewhat above the deck so your pull will provide the lift. If, however, you are using a windlass that is mounted near deck level then it becomes an issue. It is also a bit of an issue if you are sitting down on deck (such as you would in rough conditions) and hauling in the anchor, but it never caused me that much trouble.

I have seen some boats where the roller is mounted on the side of the bowsprit. This would appear to have the advantage that you can hold the chain away from the hull and thus reduce the chance of it rubbing against the hull if the wind is pushing you against the current. Of course you still have the problem of the anchor rode hitting the "carp striker". I've heard of this being solved by taking a line from the rode to an eye near the waterline and then slacking off on the rode at the deck until the lower line takes the load. I don't have much experience with bowsprits so these last ideas are second hand and should be taken with a grain of salt...

paladin

06-12-2003, 07:07 PM

on Tana Mari I have a pre made bridle attached to two heavy cleats at the bow....and the center of the bridle has a bight with a large heavy stainless ring attached and a swivel hook. After the anchor is set I tie off the anchor line to the steel ring and then let go with some slack back to the windlass...rig the bridler BELOW the bowsprit....

Ken Hutchins

06-12-2003, 09:18 PM

Norm if you only use what you have developed for storage, it should be fine with the added latch to keep it there. I would use the chocks you already have when anchoring, they look like they are far enough off center to minimize chafing on the bob stay. A wooden roller holder I wouldn't trust under load and a SS holder would spoil the appearance of your boat. tongue.gif

John B

06-13-2003, 12:55 AM

I just run a strop off the bowsprit end to pull the thing forward a bit.
We call that device a 'spare man' around here. Mine was perfect for my old anchor but now is a fraction short for the new one. hence some bow damage . I'd shift that wheel out more plus angle it out more as well( as the others say).
I think I've said this to you before Norm. Put a roller bearing fairlead on. Mine seems like it is half the effort to get in compared to my mates' boats. Heavier gear, heavier boat, still much easier to get back in and it's all down to that roller bearing.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

06-13-2003, 05:31 AM

Norm - I've actually gone back to carrying mine lashed on deck. Makes it easy to pick up a buoy, the weight is in a better place, and no jumping about.

(Incidentally, I've found that the keep pin in the fairlead is now great for tacking the staysail down - push pin through cringle!)

However - three ideas from my "CQR in bow roller phase":

1. A small piece of bronze sheet screwed on where the tip contacts the topsides stops damage.

2. A really good idea, most of the time - fit the roller on the bowsprit. It is neat and light and you gain the extra distance clear of the topsides that you need.

3. Cut the pins off the shackles to ease stowing in the roller.

Ian McColgin

06-13-2003, 10:16 AM

Even though it's a light bow sprit I'd mount the roller on the bow sprit as far out as still lets you get the anchor housed without fouling the whisker stays.

Since that rig is through-bolted, you might as well make two for symetry if you think you'll ever bother with a second anchor. For a small boat, that may be a bit much.

Anyway, the guard for the roller is a strap of metal - bronze is best - shaped to lie along the bowsprit, to which it's bolted, for maybe 4" - 6". Then it right angles out far enough to make space for the roller, and right angles forward again.

There also needs to be a shaped bit of strapping running along the bow sprit to protect it.

Place an appropriate hole to recieve one end of the roller axel. Carry the whole thing forward enough that it's a bit beyond the shaft/hinge part of the anchor when housed. A needed touch is to flare the open end and bottom a bit to diminish chafe. You should also relieve those edges, perhaps by brazing on a bit of rod that has a greater diameter than the strapping.

You'll still want a keeper to keep the anchor from bouncing loose while sailing and to keep the rode in place should you have the misfortune to anchor in the rough. That can be a 'fast pin' - a clevis with spring loaded keeper ball at one end - going through the flange and landing on the inner along the bowsprit strap.

G'luck

NormMessinger

06-13-2003, 12:28 PM

Santa Claus brought me a 15 lb CQR last Christmas and before I began to develop a slight modicum of anchor savy I bought a 16 lb. Danforth, 20' of 1/4" chain and a hundred feet of 1/2" nylon. I've since added 150 feet of 3/8" nylon as I came to accept a rode too big does not give enough stretch to relieve shock loading. The Danforth it a whopper for this little boat with no good place to stow it.

I've been going through back issues of boating magazines looking for ideas. I don't think anyone carries an anchor hanging over the gunwale unless it it the USS Enterprise or an off shore yacht. Sure no pictures for inspiration. Anybody got some?

I sorta like the idea of stowing the anchor on the foredeck, per Andrew, but I'll have to give that some more thought. The foredeck does not seem big enough to accomodate. Maybe I made the hatch too big to accomodate my stiff joints.

If the roller is mounted on the bow sprit does one need to be concerned about chafe on the "carp striker" or lowering the anchor on to it or fouling it when the anchor is hoisted. (such neophitic questions!) I sketched such a think a while back but didn't give it much more thought.

Thanks all for your responses. You've provided much to work with.

Ed Burnett

06-13-2003, 12:41 PM

I like the offset chute setup as you have it mocked up there, but this is only a little boat and it would be a shame to have it any bigger than it needs to be. The chute itself only needs to be a tiny bit wider than the hinge part of the CQR.

One very cost effective way of making these chutes is to have a metal side plate either side of a central timber base. I would suggest a nice bit of bronze plate, and a base of teak or greenheart. Cut the side plates so they taper down as they go aft (a slight curve makes it look even better), and copper rivet them through the base. No bending, no welding or any of that grief.

The point made earlier about the vertical loads is very valid. Imagine the snubbing loads on the anchor chain trying to tip the roller down and get some good fastenings through to the underside of a beam or the breasthook. The central piece of timber can run on aft of the ends of the side plates to get the fasenings in.

Matt J.

06-13-2003, 01:09 PM

Norm,
On Rarus, we've got the roller about 2/3 - 3/4 out on the bowsprit. It's a really nice way of lowering and raising the anchor that the previous owner came up with. I'll email you a picture or two as I've not been able to get the pics loaded to a website yet. This was a setup they used for a 35# CQR, and the anchor lived out on the bowsprit with the tied end resting just under the bowsprit roller, and the business end being tied towards the boat via the whisker stays. Of course, we've not actually used the system yet... but it does appear very clever.
Check your email in a few minutes, the closer shot shows the roller and lead, the other one will give you an idea of the location on the bowsprit.
-Matt

Ian McColgin

06-13-2003, 02:07 PM

My rodes have some loose chafe gear that when stowed is near the leader chain and easily slips with one hand out as I pay out or in. It's long enough to protect at the chocks and down to below the bob stay. It has a bit of line through a hole at the top end to lash it off when the anchor is set. Does the trick.

Bruce Hooke

06-13-2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Ed Burnett:
I like the offset chute setup as you have it mocked up there, but this is only a little boat and it would be a shame to have it any bigger than it needs to be. The chute itself only needs to be a tiny bit wider than the hinge part of the CQR.Just make sure the chute is wide enough to accomodate any shackles. In particular, I've run into problems with the anchor-to-chain connection not fitting through such a chute.

Bruce Hooke

06-13-2003, 03:25 PM

On the Danforth: sure you can try to mount it flat on the foredeck but it will be yet one more thing to trip over in an area where things to trip over are a bad idea. I would try hard to find some locker back in the cockpit where it can be stowed to be hauled out as a back-up to the CQR. If there is no space in the cockpit lockers, then how about in the bilge somewhere?

I've seen them hung off bow pulpits but only on clorax bottles...

Andrew Craig-Bennett

06-13-2003, 04:09 PM

Second that! Don't put a Danforth in chocks on the foredeck; it is superb at capturing flogging headsail sheets, having projections every which way. A CQR can usually be found a home - right in front of the cabin trunk is good. I have a pair, 45 and 35, with their shanks each side of the forehatch. I cribbed this from a photo in Hiscock.

NormMessinger

06-13-2003, 04:35 PM

I got the pictures Matt. Thank you. ....wheels turning.

Andrew, I'll dig out Hoscock.

--Norm

Alan D. Hyde

06-13-2003, 04:36 PM

There's an all-in-one Hiscock book I've got at home (whose title escapes me right now, although cruising is part of it).

Anyway, it's chock full of great photos.

And, as Andrew notes, they're well worth learning from. Take a gander; it's one of the best books you could buy. Chances are that Eric Hiscock forgot more about this stuff than I may ever learn. Nothing wrong with emulating someone who's good at what they do... Imitation is the sincerest, etc.

Alan

Ian McColgin

06-13-2003, 04:53 PM

And now for something completely different: Think of an alternative to a roller.

On boats of that size I've carried the anchor back in a locker under the cockpit seats or sole or wherever.

Just have the rode come back outboard of everything. A small hook on the shroud will capture it with a flick so it's not an Irish Pendant.

Figure your normal anchor depth and have a floating (polypropolene) line with a bit of a float on the crown of the anchor.

For anchoring -

Scout first and pick your spot.

Head on a very broad reach on the tack that the rode is on (your picture would make that starboard) towards your spot. Maybe under jib alone to keep the speed down or maybe come past the spot on a beat and turn down just long enough to . . .

Ease the anchor over the weather side letting it down a ways on the trip line and then letting the rode run till you have about 6:1 or more out.

Slide the rode to a stop as you round the boat into the wind.

You'll look cool. Keep the speed down but really if you handle the slip on the rode you'll feel and know how the anchor has bitten.

I use this lots and can get my 20 tons to come to a stop. It's also a gas as you get good at it 'cause you can really make the ol'dahling spin around on her bow.

For departure, make sail and pay off a bit so you can sail at the float on the trip line. Take in the slack on the rode as you sail up so that you go over the anchor with the line up and down. You'll want to have your timing down to snub the line. The boat's momentum will then break out the anchor and you can reach over to grab the trip line, bringing it in over the stern where it will naturally drag and stay out of the way.

Once the anchor is aboard you can flick the rode over that hook on the shround and then trim the rode enough that it lies in place. Maybe you'll also have a wee wooden hook back by the corner of the transom to serve as a turning spot for the rode to lead back into the cockpit.

This puts the weight more amidships where it belongs and you're working in the biggest safest part of the boat.

Rollers are just tiddley on large boats but I think may add clunk and clutter to the rather elegant array of nose gear you have. Sort of like a big nostril stud on some high school girl's (or boy's) face, it would not really enhance the look.

G'luck

NormMessinger

06-13-2003, 06:11 PM

You're good Ian. That is almost exactly what you said back in November, I think it was. :cool: The nose ring in the old girl was a concern and I had not gotten around to thinking how I might make the bow roller fit the scene.

Is there any chain in the rode with the set up you described?

htom

06-14-2003, 07:18 PM

There are a bunch of photos of like things in the books devoted to preparing a boat for crusing. Wood is praised for being quiet, and I saw an article somewhere about adding quarter inch ply as a lining to a metal one to make it quieter. Two rollers are usually better than one, and bigger rollers better than small. Suspended under the bowspirit, rather than through bolted, would keep the anchors from grabbing at the other lines and sails, maybe.

Bowrollers (and sternrollers) are very convenient, but they hang a big weight way out there where it gets a huge lever arm, and then they try hard to trip you when you're working on that tiny foredeck and distracted by the storm and the sail and the screaming aft...

I'd pass. If you need or want one for emergency anchor handling, consider a sternroller, maybe, where you won't be as likely to trip on it.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

06-16-2003, 06:44 AM

Not exactly a roller but something to think about.

Sooner or later you will go aground good and proper and have to lay out a kedge. You will then need to haul it in. It will almost certainly, going aground being what it is, lead sideways from the boat and you will want to haul it from the bow or the stern to pull her off.

Standing on the bow and tugging is neither efficient nor very wise!

I have a very high tech and pricey bit of gear (for me!) in the shape of a Lewmar snatch block which clips onto an eye at the stemhead for this purpose - I can lead the warp through and back to the windlass on my 12 tonner.

This has proved to be one of my better ideas.

A small simple version with a smaller block and an eye (or shackle to where the staysail tacks down to) is worth thinking about.

Ian McColgin

06-16-2003, 10:05 AM

We used rigs like that on our boats growing up - Cape Cod Knockabout, Narasketuck, and an Electra. I've taught folk how to use it easily on other boats, most recently a Wianno Senior.

Our older boats had old time fisherman type anchors which don't at all need a chain to set.

My friend's Wianno has that aluminum fortress anchor that's so light it almost floats. He's very proud of having a light anchor, but it takes over 30# of leader chanin to get the fool thing to sink and set so I'd not say that he's got a very light rig.

Best practice is to have a chain about as long as the boat's waterline length. If you're frequently anchoring in really shallow water, this may be too long to get the anchor upanddown for the breaking out without getting the chain up on deck - exactly what you're trying to avoid.

I'd not worry about making a shorter chain - like 6' or so. Have it a little heavier chain than really needed for your boat - maybe 3/8" - and you should have no trouble getting the CQR to bite. Some people like the plastic armored chain as it's less likely to scratch the boat and as the rubbery goop keeps the chain at least semi-straight and less likely to tangle. However, if you set and recover over the stern, it's easy to handle without an abrasion problem, and if you set the anchor down while moving you're not likely to wind up with a pile of chain on top of the anchor, which is a leading cause of failed sets.

With the shorter chain, you can bring the anchor up by the crown and the chain and a little bight of rode will stream out behind till you want them.

In actual recovery in a really shallow anchorage, you may sometimes need to actually ease the rode a tad after brea-out to give the hook room to get to your stern. But if it's that shallow, maybe just wading over to the anchor will be the solution.

G'luck

Andrew Craig-Bennett

06-16-2003, 12:00 PM

Ian is right; a short length of heavy chain. The idea is to keep the shank of the anchor horizontal unless and until you haul it up vertically. Now, this is mainly done by catenary, but a bit of brute weight at the anchor is handy.

With the fathom of line on the crown, the CQR can be dropped most elegantly as Ian describes; get the anchor hung overside by the line, which is slippery hitched round anything handy, as you approach the anchorage, and just let go when you are at the right spot.

Ian McColgin

06-16-2003, 12:21 PM

By the way, whatever system you settle on, practice lots while the weather is nice, maybe in the privacy of a secluded cove.

As with any part of sailing, there are more and less ergometrically economical ways to go at this and you want to have it down so you look cool.

G'luck

NormMessinger

06-16-2003, 02:59 PM

:cool:

What us? Um, we'll work on it. smile.gif

Bruce Hooke

06-16-2003, 03:16 PM

Ian, what I don't understand with your method is how you do it single-handed. It would seem to me that you would need to be in two places at once -- at the bow to let out rode and at the stern to cast off the anchor and stear the boat? Or is this only something you do with at least 2 people on board? Or is your boat steady enough on a course so that you can move between the two as you do this? Do you ever run into problems with other boats catching the floating line on their prop? At least in Maine, where I do most of my sailing, "normal anchoring depth" would be hard to estimate to closer than about 15-20', which when added to a 10' tide could mean up to 25-30' of line floating on the surface at low tide...

Ian McColgin

06-16-2003, 05:05 PM

One place but five hands - which is two hands, two feet and one mouth.

No -- Seriously.

It's all done from the cockpit.

The best set up is to have the anchor and it's leader chain in a locker under a cockpit seat. The rode leads aft on the starboard side and around a little turning hook nicely made of wood right at the starboard corner and forward outside of everything. A little upwards hook siezed to the starboard chainplate will hold the rode out of the water. The rode goes through a captive chock and back to the cockpit.

So extra pieces of gear, all unobrtusive, are:

A turning hook back on the starboard quarter - sorta a tear shape in wood with a notch around the back and outboard ends;

An ss or bronze hook siezed to the chain plates:

A starboard bow chock that has a keeper across the top so that the rode can't come out; and

The mooring cleat conveniently back near the cockpit.

The rode can fall into a bucket or whatever.

Additionally, you'll want a line to the anchor's crown that's about twice as long as the waterline length of boat. Floating yellow polyprop with a float and an eye at the bitter end is nice.

To drop the anchor, some way off set up by draping the hook and leader chain over the stern but held up by the trip line cleated to whatever is handay. Have the rode set to run.

As you pass the spot (for this set up on broad starboard reach as slowly as you can) where the anchor is to go, flip the rode off that hook at the shroud and then cast off the trip line.

Reach forward with one hand to feel the rode. As it pays out if you hold it lightly you'll feel it grab the bottom. When it does, one turn on the cleat for your sliding stop and put the helm down and hang on. She'll round up. Hitch the rode and caste off the hallyards so you can get your sails down before flopping over to the other tack.

It sounds like a lot but once you practice - maybe with an extra hand or so to start with - you'll make it look easy.

To depart, get the sail up and get off to the side by backing the jib to port and then sailing up on the anchor on the starboard tack. Haul in your slack as you go. Steer with your foot. (I kid you not.)

Snub the rode as you pass over the anchor for the break out. You may or may not tack at this point bot mostly attend to snagging the trip line and bringing the anchor up along the stern into sight, but still in the water. Now sail off to a good space to clear up.

Sayanora.

Bruce Hooke

06-16-2003, 05:51 PM

Ian, Ah, now I get it. With the rode aft everything fits together. That's a clever system you've worked out.

Being able to steer well with your foot is certainly an essential skill for any solo sailer! :D

Ian Wright

06-17-2003, 10:55 PM

Steering with a foot is a balancing act I do not have the talent for, standing on one leg on any boat does not seem very secure,,,,,CQR,,,,, getit?
However, I can steer with the tiller, um, between the upper thighs so to speak, a gentle hip sway to port or starboard is all that is needed, leaving the hand free to roll another ciggy. Go back to hand steering if negotiating a dinghy fleet unless hula dancing is your thing.
That anchor roller thingy Norm,,,,,,, Too big,,,, cast up a nice bit of bronze .

IanW

IanW.

[ 06-17-2003, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Ian Wright ]

mmd

06-18-2003, 12:03 AM

Hi, Norm. Way back up at the top of this thread, Paladin mentioned putting down "a piece of sacrificial teak or other hardwood under the chain to prevent damage to the deck when retrieving the anchor....." Good idea. Below is how Covey Island Boatworks handled that problem on their recently-launched Herreshoff "Tioga" - note the wee 1" x 1/2" x 8" teak rails with well-rounded corners under the anchor chain.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid39/p052c3611593efc02aa6f502669339b06/fd06b2bb.jpg

John B

06-18-2003, 12:43 AM

did I put this one up before? dunno.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid39/pe15e025cd85a12a5c329bfe2438f499c/fd0b2fe2.jpg

a spare man from the second hand boat parts man.Roller bearing in there. Composite LOL. I had to extend the bronze fitting out on a wooden support.
Note the chopped up clewofoldmainsail Norm. clips on to the stay with a sail hank. you'd be surprised how quick you can mess up a nice sail with a grubby warp/chain/ anchor coming aboard.

Ian McColgin

06-18-2003, 09:53 AM

Ian the Right -

By the way, I'm gonna run up your Kedgers'/Ant flag soon -

Anyway, On a small boat, the posture is usually sitting leaning forward mostly on my starboard cheek and port leg extended to the tiller.

I am a bit over the top in pedidexterity. When the temp is above freezing, I preferr to sail bare footed and while I don't have an opposing digit on either foot, I put them to good use, including line handling. My God-daughter watched with a mix of horror and amusement when I did a bowline with feet only. There's a limit though. I can do two different ways of making up a one-handed bowline but need both feet and a bit of deck space to do it with my feet.

In the dory, I often have to trim and ease the sail with my feet. The line fits nicely between big toe and next toe. But I never develop enough callus there to let it slide comfortably so for rapid easing, like the conclusion of a gybe, I lay the sheet on the deck and let the tougher sole take the abuse.

Back to steering, which takes no unusual dexterity, I think steering with my feet started when I was too small to hike out and even reach the tiller and we had no hiking stick. Got to be a habit. I know no more pleasant way to sail to weather in moderate wind than perched comfortably to leeward so I can see the jib with my feet pointed uphill to the tiller.

One of these days I'm going to hook up with a good video person and film the many interesting physical things people do on boats. Sorta like there's a dozen or more 'eskimo rolls' for kayakers and many variations on turning your skiis, there are actually a lot of ways to be in a boat, each with its own special moment.

Ian Wright

06-19-2003, 03:39 AM

A bowline with your feet? Good grief! That did it, I know when I'm beat,,,,,,,,,,,,,

IanW:)

PeterSibley

06-19-2003, 04:12 AM

I don't know if I've missed it in these postings, but one thing that may have been left unmentioned is some way of securing the anchor chain in the bow fitting ....of whatever design. A strong cross pin to secure the chain where you want it adds almost nothing to the weight or complexity of the setup but has to be essential, the chain leaping out of the fitting while anchored in heavy weather and slicing along the side deck .......well not something to be encouraged !