Sonfa @#$!%! this guy is pissing me off...

[dmede]

I’ve been looking for info on the Lister L-Series engine to see if it will be a good fit in the Victor Slocum. I emailed Jack Echalier at Lister USA to ask about PTO shafts, flanges pricing etc. and I made the mistake of mentioning to this guy that I was planning to use it in a boat. Because it’s not legal to install a stationary engine in a mobile application he won’t even answer my questions!

What the hell? Like I couldn’t walk into the dealers and buy one without telling them what I’m using it for. Or get one used! Jeezus this guy is pissing me off.

“David,
Thanks for your interest in our engines.
All small marine engines have to meet EPA Tier 2 emissions legislation.

Unfortunately, Neither the LT or the LV are EPA compliant.
There would also be some difficulties taking the drive as you suggest, but that is academic as we cannot sell this engine in US for a mobile application.

Sorry we cannot be of help in this instance.
Kind Regards,
Jack”

“David, I am sorry but I thought my earlier reply made it clear – this engine is not EPA compliant and just because you are building the boat in your garage does not make any difference – you are still subject to the law..

We are prohibited by law from selling a stationary engine for a mobile application – there is a fine of $25,000 fine per infringement plus other severe penalties to our business in this country.

The LT1 and LV1 engines are not available for this application and not suitable for this application.

Kind Regards”

If I end up using the Lister I’m going to send him a picture of his motor in my boat, and me at the tiller with the one finger salute
:D

[Mike V.]

I don't understand why you are mad at the Lister representative. He doesn't want his company to get fined for recommending an illegal installation, what is wrong with that?

[Venchka]

I don't know. Right or wrong, it sounds like those are the rules. Most of us at least try to play by the rules. What's wrong with a marine engine in a marine application? What am I missing?

After a few more seconds of thought...there are a few old lawnmower engines in boats. The EPA didn't fine those folks. I bet they didn't ask B&S for help either. Very tricky.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[dmede]

he can't get fined for answering questions. they are only prohinited from SELLING it for mobile applications. after he told me that i made it clear that i was looking at a used unit for a home built boat and that i just needed some spec info from the company for parts info, he still wouldn't answer the questions.

he can make it clear that they do not advocate using the motor in any installation for which it its not intended and still answer questions like: whats the retail price? what are the PTO options? are there flanges available and what are the dimension? gearbox specs?

these have nothing directly to do with the installation and could just as easily be for stationary use.

besides he doesn't have to be wrong for me to be pissed at him ;)

[dmede]

wayne thats the arena im in. this is akin to a lawn mower installation. i could walk into the nearest Lister dealer today, buy the motor and install it in my boat. uncle sam may have a law against using it in the boat but he doens't have any way to stop me. and the dealer will never know.

this guys acting like there might be EPA agents in deguise, lurking in his stores or reading his emails, ready to fine him.

edited to add: i asked Hatz the same questions, they had no issues. i know of one other forum member who asked Honda about using theier small motors in a boat, he had no trouble.

[ 05-24-2005, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: dmede ]

[Gary E]

You know something, I halfway agree with you, but the fact is that Calif has some very screwie laws that will stop you or anyone from using an engine not allready installed.

My point is illistrated in the fact that so many diesels are replaced in Calif boats and the old engine is PROHIBITED from being sold to to a Calif shipping address. Whutz up with that? Are there subsidies involved here?

[Venchka]

Here you go.


Crocker ketch-Lister diesel (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=63730&item=4552200059&rd=1)

Fairly new fresh water cooled Lister-Petter inboard diesel engine with about 100 hrs. on it. Engine runs well.I was gonna say "Buy the boat. Keep the motor. Sell the boat.". Maybe this motor rubs Kaliforny the wrong way.

Do you ever get the feeling that folks are out to ruin your whole day?

BTW, the lawnmower engine powered boats I know of are in Oregon. Go figure.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[dmede]

don't get me started on CA over-regulation. this state stinks when it comes to meddling in private affairs. that and the cost of housing will drive me out soon. if i could do what im doing now in washington or oregon id be gone tomorrow.

they have bans on selling new diesel autos here. i think you can buy an out of state diesel after a certain mileage or age (9 months?)

for the boats, you register by mail, they never even see the boat, they care more about the stinkin trailer. my friend said as soon as he told them his boat was homebuilt they handed over the reg and never asked another question. he renews yearly via mail.

[Don Z.]

Here's another one of those posts that I just don't get... If I'm understanding you correctly, you're asking for information on an application that his company does not support. He's told you twice that's not a recommended application, and you're angry with him because he won't provide information that can be used against him later?

Suppose he did give you PTO info, and you cobbled it into something like an anchor windlass... and the cobbled together part failed... in the ensuing lawsuit, his information could be presented as a recomendation... and he could then be liable...

I'm not saying you would do that, just that he doesn't know you from Adam, and so he needs to be circumspect...

Another example could be that after installing it for this not recommended use... it could break, in which case, there could be a post ranting about how cheap/unreliable/useless/etc. that specific engine is... Of course, this hypothetical post would leave out the fact that it was being used in a manner not recommended by the manufacturer... If you were the dealer, would you double down on that bet?

Sure, we could quote a hundred examples of how a similar engine was used. I could also show you a hundred people who cross the street without looking both ways, and they were never hit by a car!

I just don't get it... you asked about a use that was not recommended, he told you twice it's not recommended, and he's the bad guy for not telling you what you want to hear?

[MarkC]

Surely there is a Farryman Diesel you can use - if you are looking for that single piston feel -

They have models designed for marine use, with all the gear-boxes etc. They are sold in the US, with full parts supply - owned by Brigs and Stratton, make approx 11 thousand motor per year - most stationary/construction industry - but a number of models specifically for marine use - propulsion and generators.

[dmede]

Don, the questions I asked him were specific to the engine itself not its installation. I only mentioned that it was going in a boat to help him visualize my project. My questions woudl be just as valid if I were hooking his motor up to a water pump or a generator.

How is he liable for answering my question about price? The motor has a price and he wont give it to me becaue I mentioned that it was going in a boat. That is rediculous.

How is he liable for answering a question on the length and diameter of the enignes output shaft? Or what flanges they make for it?

If I had asked him to make specific reccomendations regarding installing it in a boat I could understand his apprehension. But I didn't.

In fact, here are the questions I asked him (copied directly from my email):
1) are the L series motors available in the US?
2) what is the difference between the LV1 and the LT1?
3) are shafts and flanges available from Lister for the gear end of the motor? if so what are the specs for the shafts and flanges (all dimensions including hole pattern)?
4) does lister make a gearbox for the L-series? if so what reduction and does it have reverse?
5) what is the retail price of the L-series motors (as well as the gearbox if available)?
6) and finally, are there any dealers in CA?

[Alan D. Hyde]

Ownership of a gas station*, for six months, twenty years previously, cost a retired mechanic over $50,000 in EPA fines, which were cheaper to pay than to fight.

An automotive parts distributor (kind of a jobber) ended up paying the EPA a ~$250,000 fine because some batteries--- of a BRAND he once sold--- were found in an EPA site. No proven connection to his company.

These are cases from the 1990's. But plenty of people in business have heard of them, or similar, and quite reasonably wish to avoid becoming the next victim of governmental power run amuck.

Alan

* The tanks of which leaked into the ground, no one could prove when... most likely the leaks began well after the period during which the mechanic owned the station.

[ 05-25-2005, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[MarEng]

Gary:

There are subsidies involved. California Air Quality Districts have determined the quickest way to get NOX reductions is to buy them. They get industry to put together proposals for NOX reduction and rank them in order of lowest $ per ton reduction. They then fund until the money runs out or they hit their threshold value. This is done every year. The program is called Carl Moyer. Most of the tugs and ferries in Ca. have been reengined under this program. In many cases the owner was able to buy the engines, pay his employees to do the work at a very competative rate and still get funding. Now that the low hanging fruit is gone, the job is getting a bit tougher to find fundable projects. I have worked two projects through this program, one succesful and one ongoing. We didn't take the money on the succesful one as the boat must stay in Ca. for up to 5 years after conversion and the owner wanted to sell - the Ca. restriction limited his market too much. We looked at selling the old engines through a broker in Fla. who guaranteed they would end up in Central or South America. Cheap engines for the third world and an end use certificate for California.

[Gary E]

MarEng,
Thanks for spelling it out, I thought so but was not sure. I also see some engines not only not for sale to a Calif address but listed as MUST LEAVE THE US.

Thans again

[Don Z.]

Originally posted by dmede:
.

“David,
Thanks for your interest in our engines.
All small marine engines have to meet EPA Tier 2 emissions legislation.

Unfortunately, Neither the LT or the LV are EPA compliant.
There would also be some difficulties taking the drive as you suggest, but that is academic as we cannot sell this engine in US for a mobile application.

Sorry we cannot be of help in this instance.
Kind Regards,
Jack”

“David, I am sorry but I thought my earlier reply made it clear – this engine is not EPA compliant and just because you are building the boat in your garage does not make any difference – you are still subject to the law..

We are prohibited by law from selling a stationary engine for a mobile application – there is a fine of $25,000 fine per infringement plus other severe penalties to our business in this country.

The LT1 and LV1 engines are not available for this application and not suitable for this application.

Kind Regards”

I still don't get it. He cannot legally sell you the engine for your admitted intended use, and even goes as far as to say that there would be problems with the proposed installation... And he's the bad guy?

To push the example to the extreme (and I know this is extreme, but it gets the point home) imagine a conversation that went:
"Hey, I heard you can make a bomb by mixing fertilizer with amonia in a cement truck... anyway, how big is that cement truck you're selling? Is it near a farm supply store? How fast does it spin, and how much can it mix? Thanks".

I know it sounds silly... I just don't understand why you're so upset about it all...

[Bradley Stemen]

David, tell the Lister dealer you are going to run the engine on 100% biodiesel which will 100% comply with EPA emissions standards. 100% biodiesel is what I am planning to run in my non-EPA compliant air-cooled Yanmar stationary when I get around to building the launch I bought it for.
Brad

[dmede]

Don,

Well like I said he doesn't have to be wrong for me to be pissed at him. And I'm not that upset, just frustrated. I was venting and looking to commiserate.

However, I still think he could have answered the questions with no reprecussions. I am just going to call a local dealer and ask them anyway. If he can't sell it, he can't sell it. Thats not the point, I still want to know what I want to know and he should have no problem giving me those answers. I'm hoping to find one of these used and I'm pretty sure the guy selling it wont know what flanges are available for the PTO shaft.

If I went into a paint store and mentioned I was a graffitti artist then asked about the percent solids in a certain can of paint (or something less made up), but didn't ask to buy it, I don't think anyone would refuse to asnwer my question. They just might not sell it to me.

dave

[Gary E]

DAve,
I understand your thoughts, well, some of them. I will compare your plan to what we did as kids by building engines to increase HP etc and install it in a car that was never rated for such HP... Would any car manufacturer today allow or even tell a kid, yeah...that 500 cu in is rated bla bla and the flywheel is rated to not explode untill it get to 15,000 RPM ?? I dont think so... Not to mention the problem that tinkering with any of todays motors would do to getting your car an inspection sticker... Back in the old days... Inspection sticker???... we dont need no inspection sticker !!

Todays government is here ta help ya.... right?

[Katherine]

Gary, you are correct. In fact most auto manufactureres prefer that their engineers speak to the public as little as possible.

[Gary E]

Iz that cuz they might actually tell the truth?.. or at least the inginner's version of it?

Actually there are many Detroit Diesels that are converted by many other companies for use in all sorts of power requirements.. ya thnk DD didnt furnish some info??

But your right... it's the LAWYERS.. that have mucked up the world so Manufactures of all sorts are closed mouth and becoming importers.. a pox on all of them that do that.

[seafox]

their very well could be epa agents undercover tying to build up their arrest numbers by solisiciting information on companys selling product for uses the goverment does not aprove. its a whole lot easyer and makes the goverment more money than attacking actual crooks. its why they prfer to capture drug runners who are carring money to buy drugs insteed of catching them after they get the drugs ( they set up a sign that said "drug currior police road block ahead 1 mile" on the freeway going down the east coast of florida. the drug runners would make an illeagle U turn acrost the medium that has the nice sign that say offical vehicles only and that gave the police proable cause to pull them over and search the car. if they found lots of money that could not be acounted for they confiscated it. note they put the sign on the southbound road to catch them with money not on the north bound to catch them after they had already made the buy and were heading back north

[htom]

He's been told by management not to answer such questions because there ARE federal agents trolling for such violators. Local gas station was smacked for $20,000 for having a couple of empty used two-gallon gas cans that they loaned to customers. One of the "customers" turned out to be from the EPA, looking for such illegal activity.

At least they didn't get shot.

Your anger is better directed at the EPA, if they don't have a good reason for not allowing the engine into mobile service. If they do have a good reason, be glad you found out now.

Do they confiscate boats with non-conforming engines?

[dmede]

Originally posted by htom:
Do they confiscate boats with non-conforming engines?ok serious question now, DO they confiscate small boats with non-aproved motors in them?

my feeling is that a boat like the VS with a little lawnmower engine in it isn't on anyones radar. but maybe im missing something. my buddy built an outboard stripper-dingy with dimensions very close to the VS (15' x 5'). he registered it via mail. he said it was vey easy, no extra questions. on the reg form there are no questions about design, power etc. they seem to be more interested in making sure you are the entitled owner.

[seafox]

they are mostly intrested in getting their money.

they will claim it is a safety issue they do not like gravity fuil tanks. motor systems that pump the fuil up to the carborator /injectors are safer because with the pump off a broken fuil line does not fill the engine room with an explosion waiting for a spark. also if the engine has electric start it proable would not be sheilded and the carb or air intake likely does not have a backfire supressor .

I would guess they will not confiscate the boat if you use the wrong engine but they will gladly fine you if they catch you

[sciroccogtx]

Well i've an 80 year old clinker shetland sloop and it has an LT1 installed (7hp@3000rpm) with a 2:1 reduction box.
In 10 years I have never had a major problem with the setup and it will push my boat along at about 4 knots cruising.
Am glad there are no laws with regard to using a stationery engine in Scotland!
I don't see where the problem lies.

P.s. I dont think Lister are very helpful anyway.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Seafox is right; the US Government is known to use undercover agents for purposes of entrapment(see below) and yours is a very litigious country. The Lister guy is doing the right thing.

By way of example, the US security services recently boarded a ship, pretending to be dock workers, and then arrested the gangway watch for not doing their jobs! I am not making this up!

[dmede]

Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
Seafox is right; the US Government is known to use undercover agents for purposes of entrapment(see below) and yours is a very litigious country. The Lister guy is doing the right thing.

By way of example, the US security services recently boarded a ship, pretending to be dock workers, and then arrested the gangway watch for not doing their jobs! I am not making this up!huge difference between testing security on a large ship at port and checking for an approved engine in a 15' open boat. I'd bet if I went around to the DMV, Coast Gaurd and Port Authority around here, none of them could tell me off hand the regulations concerning stationary engines in small boats.

But hey its a moot point anyway, I'm putting the VS plans on hold and going for the Maud & Emeline now. In part due to a lack of building space but also becasue I can not find a suitable drive train set up.

[seafox]

I called the coat guard asking what constutes an outboard motor ( engine) because an inbord neads a anti backflash spark aresting carborator. and the outboard does not. Mind you I just got who ever was manning their information number that day and I get the feeling he wasn't killing time on that job till an opening came up at the advanced parical axcelerator project.

his answer was "it is or it isn't."
but how do you tell?
the manufacture wil tell you
Im the one building the boat.
well it is or it isn't

[Frank E. Price]

Does anybody here vote? Or am I out of line?

Frank