Boat dreaming, boat modifications, sailing the Atlantic

[Jack Heinlen]

Ever since I read Robert Manry's Tinkerbelle at ten I've had a gnawing desire to sail a small boat across the Atlantic. It's not at all fiery, it just seems like something I ought to do before I die.

I've got a Drascombe Lugger, and the thought of modifying it has crossed my mind. It has a decent hull shape, but the open part isn't in the cards. So, brainstorming.

Build a strong cabin and deck arrangement that closes off all but a small cockpit. Or, perhaps, eliminate the cockpit. Modify the centerboard well, perhaps with a pennant at the aft end rather than the current lift set-up which is a lever with a purchase, open at the bow. Eliminate the motor well. Secure 400 lbs of lead in the bilges. Maybe a Chinese lug rig?

All thoughts, including you're out of your frickin mind, are welcome. smile.gif

[uncas]

Jack...have always wondered what I would have to do to modify Uncas for an Atlantic sail...has had nothing to do with size...she is big enough...etc. Heck if someone can row across the Atlantic, she is big enough...but for supplies, she isn't.
I would have to tear apart everything...and above all, put in a much larger water tank.
So...I think I'll wait for someone planning such a trip to invite me on their boat.
Keep the dreams.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I believe that Joyon is planning the same trip.
Hitch-hike.

[Magwitch]

A Drascome made it round the world, not non-stop, granted, but still,,,,,,,,,,,,

IanW

[Thad]

Decked over with cabin is what Manry did. Don't put so much lead in that she will sink, you'll want to pump her out if she fills.

[Bruce Hooke]

Along the lines of what Thad said, it seems to me that you want to build a boat that can get knocked down or rolled over and then come back upright and keep sailing, rather than trying to add lots of ballast in an attempt to stay upright...

[ssor]

Water ballast adds stability and yet has neutral buoyancy. Bottled water might be a choice. You will defifitely want water tight compartments.

[Jack Heinlen]

Thanks gents.

The boat is currently completely open except for scuppered benches that run down the sides, and an aft deck. As to ballast. The boat has a great deal of stability in its shape. My thought was to have a cabin with a strong arch in the beams that would run right to the gunnels. Something not unlike what Hasler did with Jester, perhaps. A bit of weight down low, whether water bottles or lead, would seem to be in order. The combination should make it so she won't want to float upside down.

Some appropriate padding and I can pretend I'm in my own little cell. :D

Ian,

Webb Chiles' books on his voyage 3/4 of the way around are worth a read. After many swampings and a shipwreck, all of which he carried on through, he landed in a Saudi jail accused of being an Israeli spy. :rolleyes: His boat was confiscated, and that was the end of the dream.

Quite the tale.

[ 02-16-2005, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[Matt J.]

I like this thread, I hope it elicits more responses. I don't have much to add, really.

I'm not familiar with a DL, though. Wouldn't adding a strong cabintop seem to be adding weight where you truly wouldn't want it? How can you compensate for that, or design around it? A lighter-weight cabin? Perhaps even a canvas / dodger style cover? It's not going to feel as comforting if you hit weather, but building a cabin... adding weight already, up high, and so you can't just keep adding ballast - she's only got so much displacement available.

Not to mention that since needing provisions, water, and basic tooling anyway you'll be loading her pretty well as is.

Maybe it's my unfamiliarity with the Luggers. Can she handle those kinds of additional loads and still sail across an ocean?

I like the idea of going with what you've got, though. With RARUS, there are things I'd like to change, too. The goal of crossing an ocean is a nice benchmark for any boat. Jenny and I have been talking about tropical cruising in "a few" years. Sell up and sail...

[Alan D. Hyde]

Much may be done with little.

Look what Tanya had.

Alan

[Jack Heinlen]

Matt,

You make good points. One approach would be to make the deck and cabin out of foam, but the thought of working that much googe doesn't appeal. Also, the mods would entail removing the current liner, which makes up the benches and the aft deck. That would eliminate a fair amount of weight. If the structure was filleted 3/8 ply over bulkheads I think the weights would come out about even, though granted with a bit of extra top hamper. Hence a bit of ballast. I like the idea of water bottles. Finish one and refill it with seawater.

A canvas structure. Hm. I don't think so. I want a nice strong bubble.

[Bruce Hooke]

Your talk of removing the liner and all the other changes got me to thinking that maybe it would not be much more work to build a new boat of similar size but to an overall design more in keeping with the intended voyage. I'm not saying this is definitely the way to go, I'm just saying that it is a reference point to keep in mind...

[Bruce Hooke]

BTW, for those who are not familiar with the design, here's a picture of a Drascombe Lugger:

http://homepage.mac.com/hollybird/Drascombe_NA/images/directory/sheffner3.jpg

In the process of finding this picture I also found out that there is a Drascombe Owners of North America web site (http://www.dogona.com/) .

[Jack Heinlen]

Matt,

Here's a pic that gives a sense. Watkinson basically copied a coble, a fishing boat used off the beach, indigenous to the northern British Isles. A relatively deep forefoot and quite a flat run. With a mizzen set and all other sail down the boat naturally and nicely cocks into the wind. Looks pretty small, don't it? smile.gif

http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk/albums/Al_016/exeic12.jpg

[Alan D. Hyde]

Re: Tanya Aebi, see a review of her book Maiden Voyage at www.mytravelbug.org/Book%20Club/Index.html (http://www.mytravelbug.org/Book%20Club/Index.html)

Alan

P.S. IIRC, she had a Countessa 26.

[ 02-16-2005, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Jack Heinlen]

Alan,

Yes, a Contessa 26. One of the several glass iterations of the Folkboat type. Canadian built, IIRC.

That might be the way to go. I've seen them for as little as ten grand in "Soundings". It might be nice to have a keel under me. There were also quite a few wooden iterations of the Folkboat, some with better accomadations than the international.

The idea of going with the boat I have -- the thinking and modifying -- is also interesting.

[ 02-16-2005, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[ssor]

I realize that on a wooden boat forum talking about fiberglass techniques is heresy but I shall take that chance. If you made a semi-circular(high curvature)foredeck of corecell and fiberglass it would provide the shelter that you seek and a small enough added weight to improve the self-righting characteristics. At about five pounds per cu.ft. you could make it quite thick and keep the weight of the glass sheathing low. As I was putting this together I remembered reading about someone that crossed the north atlantic east to west in a two inch thick foam/fiberglass composite boat that could be closed up like a submarine. That vessel was un- sinkable even if smashed.

[ 02-16-2005, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: ssor ]

[Gary E]

Jack,
Dont you read those other threads here where the local designers git all bent outa shape at the meer hint of wanting to or even sugesting a change in their purrrfict woik?

Better duck when they read this simple request of your's.

[George Roberts]

Gary E ---

I have been envisioning Jack somewhere in the North Atlantic (in the water) hanging on to his boat wondering why he had not read that thread.

If he wants to go, he should.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Have you read Guzzwell's book, "Trekka round the world"?

[Magwitch]

Originally posted by Jack Heinlen:
Thanks gents.

Ian,

Webb Chiles' books on his voyage 3/4 of the way around are worth a read. After many swampings and a shipwreck, all of which he carried on through, he landed in a Saudi jail accused of being an Israeli spy. :rolleyes: His boat was confiscated, and that was the end of the dream.

Quite the tale.I haven't read the book, just a few magazine reports but didn't the company ship out a new boat to enable him to continue?
IanW

[Jack Heinlen]

Ian,

It's been awhile, but my memory is that Honnor Marine, now defunct or reorganized, was very helpful with replacements, but that the hull remained the same. There was talk about replacing it when the Saudis took the original, but I think he was pretty much exhausted after getting out of jail. Not a man who did well in a Saudi prison.

He got really socked somewhere around Timor: blown out sails, broken spars, flooded, days in a boat held up only by its flotation foam. Finally washed up on the beach. Again, IIRC.

It's considered almost impossible to bail out a fully flooded Lugger of that era, because the centerboard well is rather low forward, due to the lever lift arrangement. Chiles did it at least twice, but the one time he wasn't able to. Tired out, I think. Its a matter of stuffing rags and bailing for all you're worth. That weakness has been redesigned, with a higher lever, but in my mind a sealed trunk with a small hole for an aft pennant would be worth doing if you had an overhead for the tackle.

It's a remarkable story. I'll have to reread it. Chiles is a pip

[ 02-19-2005, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[Jack Heinlen]

Have you read Guzzwell's book, "Trekka round the world"? A LONG time ago. Ah yute. At almost fifty the thought of such a small boat for so long isn't pretty. ;) However, a month or so would be doable, still.

Interesting discussion gents. Thanks. Food for thought.

The mods might take almost as long as building a new boat, and there is always the option of buying something different.

FLA is, apparently, a good place to plunk cash down for a good boat cheap. Lot's of mediocre boats even cheaper. tongue.gif Many a cruising dream ends there after a trip down the ditch with a few duckings outside. Suddenly the dream spoils and rots; the distant isles less alluring when the face of it is revealed.

In anycase doing it sometime soon, while all the digits and limbs still pull their weight without much creaking, seems like a good idea -- if I'm to do it at all. We'll see. Just dreaming at this point. smile.gif

[Hwyl]

Jack, don't even think of anything under 35'. Put a finite time on it and then sell the boat, otherwise it will eat up money.

Would you be doing the "big circle". You could always join Ian W and sail a Vertue from England to the Azore. Disregarding my own advice, there's a free Vertue in WB (probably gone)

[ssor]

The cod fishermen of the north atlantic made some pretty extraordinary trips in open dories when separated from the mother ship. I am also sure that even more of them were never heard from again. I don't believe that I would choose to make such a trip in an open boat if I could have a more substantial boat.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Some really wierd stuf has made the crossing.
http://www.famoussmallboats.com/
http://www.famoussmallboats.com/Graphics/gilt3.jpg

[Venchka]

Jack,

You must be reading my mind. And that is a very scary place!

I waited awhile to chime in. Kinda wanted to gather my thoughts. Right. No doubt I will expose my ignorance yet again.

First off, if you haven't read "A Speck on the Sea" get it and read it. Not so much for any real "How to" information, but just to give you an idea of how really bizarre some of the small boat cruises were. The book will also confirm that most folks used whatever boat they had, modified it as best they could and then "Just did it!"

Frank Dye's books should also shed some light on what's possible in terms of small, open boats and open water.

Every time I stand behind the sternpost of Elisabeth Grace I can picture her thrashing to weather somewhere east of the Grand Banks. I know in my heart that this hull and sail rig could go anywhere, given that the skipper knew what he was doing. The part that bothers me is whether or not there is sufficient cargo capacity for food and water. A dry place to sleep is a bother also.

Food and water. Hmmmmmm...Anybody know how much food and water a person needs to remain fit to sail a boat across an ocean? I have seen 3 liters of water and 2 kilos of food per person per day mentioned as a cruising ration. I haven't read Manry's book, but I do know that his trip from Falmouth to Falmouth lasted 78 days. That's 858 pounds of food and water. How much faster would a larger boat be? 10%? 15%? Even if you cut the trip to 60 days, that's still 660 pounds. While a Lugger or a Caledonia yawl might actually be capable of safely carrying that load, I'm not sure that there is room in the boat for that much food and water. I suppose collecting rainwater would be essential to such a voyage. How reliable is rain over the north Atlantic? Probably too much in some years. Not enough in others.

Sleep. How well will the boat sail all by herself? Manry's voyage seemed like an exercise in sleep deprivation followed by hallucinations until he furled sail, deployed the sea anchor and went to sleep. That doesn't seem like fun to me.

Spares. Manry carried a spare rudder and needed it when the first rudder was damaged. Good grief! My rudder weighs a ton. Takes up a lot of space. No way I could carry a spare. Maybe a spare blade. Since most of the space in the boat will be consumed by food and water, it's hard to imagine having a space to put the kind of spares you could and should have. Very vexing problem here. LED navigation lights, battery and solar panel to charge the battery seem like an extravagance. That's the equivalent of a lot of water. Forget a motor and fuel. Ground tackle may have to be on the light side too. Heck, where you gonna anchor and why?

Staying in the boat is another problem. Somehow Manry went out of the boat several times and managed to get back in. That's too scary for me. I know some folks don't trust lifelines, but I think I would want one.

No reason for the weight of a radio and power and antenna either. Who ya gonna call? A VHF handheld and EPIRB is probably all you need. A Mustang coverall suit. No spare clothes. Got to carry water!

There was more but I lost it.

Ok, I remember some of what I lost.

Sell the boat in England and fly home? Complete the Grand Circle? That's a big question there.

Maybe we should take our wee boats cruising along the coastlines of New England and the Canadian Maritime provinces. There are a few good 2-3-4 day open water stretches like between P.E.I. and Newfoundland. Or haul our wee boats out west and sail south from Glacier Bay. Rumor has it that hot showers and clean beds are no nore than 10 days sailing apart along the Inside Passage. Fresh water available almost daily. That leaves more room for ale and Maker's Mark bourbon. A dry place to sleep on the boat or ashore is still a concern. :D

Cheers! Just do it!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ssor]

Allowing that we need about 2400 calories per day for that type of venture and all cereal products yield about 2000 cal/pound and most need to be cooked. Then you should plan about a pound per day of rice, wheat biscuits, oatmeal cookies, or other cereal products. For a trip of that duration scurrvy would be a potentail problem so vitamin suppliments would also be needed. Somehow I don't think that hardtack and saltpork would be acceptable. Canned goods and fresh fruits and veggies are heavy and that probably accounts for the 2 kgs. or 4 1/2 pounds per day.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Wayne I love this line smile.gif
Got to carry water! That kinda says it all don't it :D

[Venchka]

Granted, a fella could live a long time on beef jerky, dried fruit, peanut butter and tortillas. Cooking cereals and grains requires a lot of fuel in conditions that might not be conducive to cooking. My big question is the 3 liters (3x2.2=6.6 pounds) per day water ration. Is that minimum, ideal, too much? No doubt if you had a tarp and a couple 5 gallon buckets for the purpose, if/when it rained you could collect a bunch of water in a hurry. That is taking a chance perhaps.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 02-20-2005, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[seafox]

I have read that for a body to thrive the ration should be a gallon of water a day.

one of the guys who sailed a very small boat acrost the alantic and latter acrost the picific did a test where he put canned food in the bath tub those that floated were a go and those that sank were left behind. the idea was that normally they would act as ballist but incase of flooding they would prodice some minumal flotation

what way would you go? I always wanted to visit greenland and iceland.

I would sugest that insteed of using the DL build a 26 foot catamaran by james wharan or build a trimaran by james brown or dick newirk.
good luck
jeffery

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by Venchka:
. My big question is the 3 liters (3x2.2=6.6 pounds) per day water ration. :D Probably about right. I always figured a gallon a day and that included occasionaly washing dishes in fresh water and a couple of showers.

Plan on meals you'd enjoy. Nothing like a good round of stars and then a nice dinner (O.K. it's been a long time and I would definitely use GPS)

Remember that a lot of the contents of the canned food is water. The rain ollecting thing is a hit or miss, it takes so long to wach the salt off the surfaces that it may not do you any good (a few memorable exceptions).

[ 02-20-2005, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[paladin]

a 26-27 foot boat is quite sufficient to circumnavigate with......
Saudi Jails izz no fun (everyone is a spy)...
once at sea you will eat less food than you normally would..
actually will drink less water after training yourself....
baths/showers in salt water using JOY then a little fresh water.....and more
All the above from exerience.....

[Jack Heinlen]

Such an endeavor takes a certain head. I think half a gallon is considered survival rations, no washing etc, but enough for healthy hydration.

Twenty five years ago I spent extended time in the desert, and I seem to remember that figure, including sweating a lot. Part of the walk was planned visits to springs or tinahas(catchments in the rock) and they were always anticipated with joy. One in particular, I can't remember the name, was a big artesian spring we navigated to(pre GPS). It formed a small creek there in the middle of parched nowhere. We, being careful, weren't at the edge, but man that water was lovely after four days of packing it. In our joy we got mostly naked, all, mixed, twenty year olds, and had the best party I remember. WATER! :D

The psychology of water is fascinating. People who were caught cheating on their ration were severely looked down upon.

One could count on at least a couple gales I think, when the water bottles could be refilled.

78 days! I'd forgotten it took Manry so long. Thats the best argument for a bigger, faster boat.

[ 02-20-2005, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[paladin]

my trip left Biloxi miss....around florida and up the coast...st. Johns newfieland....around Newfieland to Goose Bay...baffin Island...Thule...around souther greenland to kulusuk on eastern coast...iceland..Faroes (not 1 harbor worth a d%$#m) to Ireland...scotsland etc....always water...melt ice from floes..it's fresh.......a little planning helps....don't eat sculpin...smoke the salmon......

[ssor]

Somehow going for nearly three months without being able to cook or bathe or reliably dry my clothes sounds more like survival than adventure. I guess that I have gotten soft in my old age but a dry bed has a certain appeal to it.

[paladin]

Yup...and hot showers......fresh cuppa coffee....and something to eat that doesn't resemble C-rats or LURP rations....clean sheets, shorts, T-shirts and somebody other than the dog to snuggle close too.......

[Ron Williamson]

Start with a Great Lakes tour.Terra firma every night or never.
If you're still jonesin,there are plenty of ways out.
R

[Paul Scheuer]

What's the state of the art of de-salination for survival quantities ? Maybe solar powered ?

I know there are survival techniques for condensing small quantities of fresh water on the under side of a tarp suspended over a hole in the ground. I believe it works on the idea that if the air above the tarp is cooler than the warmer, moist air in the hole, you can capture some of the evaporation.

[htom]

A 12VDC watermaker, converts to manual: http://www.katadyn.ch/site/us/home/marine/ou_products/powersurvivor__40e/ About $us3000

[Jack Heinlen]

Someone, can't remember who, also makes a small strictly hand-pumped reverse osmosis unit. Ostensibly for life rafts, I've read of it used by long term small-boat cruisers in the Bahamas. Around 500 USD the last time I looked. Again, no experience, but such a small unit means a lot of pumping, and they need regular maintenance/spares and clean sea water to work well.

Thirty five feet, with a powered water maker, a hot shower, now we're talking - once the small problem of winning the lottery is taken care of. smile.gif

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I read an account from someone who had used a hand-cranked watermaker. He said that you sweated about as much as the thing made, but it would keep you busy.

[George.]

My opinion - there is a boat size that is small enough to be worth it. True adventure, man and tiny boat against the ocean, ration everything, wow-you-made-it-across-in-that!

There is a boat size that is big enough to be worth it. Plenty of drinking water, hot meals, showers once in a while, books and dry bunks and changes of the watch so you can enjoy both.

And there is a hateful, useless, in-between boat size. Not small enough to qualify as adventure, not big enough to qualify as pleasure.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Jack Heinlen:
...One could count on at least a couple gales I think, when the water bottles could be refilled.

78 days! I'd forgotten it took Manry so long. Thats the best argument for a bigger, faster boat.Amen Brother! Alfred Johnson, in a 20' cutter rigged dory, left Shag Harbor, N.S. (that name conjurs up cruising images of an entirely different nature :D ) June 25, 1876 and landed in Wales on August 12, 1876. 49 days. Now we're talking!

I did some computer atlas wandering last night.

St. John's, NFLD to Galway, Ireland 2,000 miles

Rockland, ME adds about 1,000 miles. Of course you wouldn't have to do those extra miles non-stop.

Rockland-Azores-Portugal is interesting and probably warmer. Roughly 2,000 miles from Rockland to the Azores.

Great tip about the floating food. In addition to the ballast/flotation/food function, it also means the stuff is high in water content. That should help in the overall hydration scheme. I'm thinking in terms of 9 pounds/day for food and water. 9 pounds @ 60 days = 540 pounds. That's manageable. Assuming the sheer bulk of it all doesn't overflow the boat. 3,000 miles/60 days = 50 miles per day. Hmmmmmmm...doesn't seem so bad afterall.

All that food and water might be a bit much for a small boat the first week or two. After that the load diminishes. A stove for coffee is required. Here's how my brain works: Steam vegetables with seawater and condense the steam into potable water. I'm on a roll! I have a nice dual fuel backpacking stove that operates on propane canisters and white gas. I suppose the MSR model stove that burns diesel fuel might be safer.

Jack, where is your thinking now re: 400 pounds of ballast? Remember all the whale ships left Nantucket and New Bedford full of liquid ballast. Seawater out, oil back. Any idea what the maximum safe displacement of a Drascombe Lugger is? Did Webb Chiles ever say just how much stuff he had in his boat?

Collecting water: I picture a piece of stout tarp kept clean for the purpose lashed to the rails and a hole in the middle with a piece of hose leading to a 5 gallon bucket.

Chuck, I like your route. Newfoundland and Goose Bay fascinate me. Heck, anybody can cruise in the Tropics.

This is a fun intellectual exercise. If I were to actually contemplate such an adventure, I think I would sail from St. Andrews, N.B., where the boat was built, to The Isle of Skye and look up the designer. :D

I can see the look on her face and hear SWMBO now. "You want to do what? Buy some more life insurance!"

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Collecting water: I picture a piece of stout tarp kept clean for the purpose lashed to the rails and a hole in the middle with a piece of hose leading to a 5 gallon bucket.

A gutter shaped rig under the boom will do the job, the rain tends to roll down the sails. You could have a container for brackish water and one for fresh.

I think your New Brunswick---Skye route would take you into the Southern range of Icebergs.

[ 02-21-2005, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[paladin]

Ya really gotta be creative. With a single burner Sea Swing stove...you can boil water in the morning for coffee, and while it's boiling toss in a couple of eggs...pour excess water in a thermos for later coffee or tea. You can start a stew, bring it to a boil, and pour the entire mess in a large thermos....open late in the evening for a slow cooked meal...cheesecloth in a shallow dish can grow bean sprouts for fresh greens.......coat eggs lightly with cooking oil, place them in an aftermarked plastic egg box, and turn the box over every other day..keeps eggs fer a long time..trick also works by dipping the eggs in boiling water for 3 seconds to cook the membrane inside..they won't keep as long though.
lotsa other tricks....

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Hwyl:
...A gutter shaped rig under the boom will do the job, the rain tends to roll down the sails. You could have a container for brackish water and one for fresh.

I think your New Brunswick---Skye route would take you into the Southern range of Icebergs.Great idea-like a PVC half pipe hung from the boom? My loose footed main would drip right in there. A length of hose and Bob's your uncle!

I never said I was clever. Maybe I could sneak up on Skye from the south? :cool: But seriously, virtually all the wee boat crossings have started in New England and/or Nova Scotia and ended in Great Britain/Ireland/Scotland. I suppose the course needs to be something of a balancing act: north of the shipping lanes and south of the icebergs.

Chuck-keep the secrets and tricks coming. I'm taking good notes.

PUR makes the little hand pumped water maker. Something like 40 strokes per minute per ounce. You would have forearms like Popeye but you couldn't do anything else! No doubt for use in a drifting liferaft.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Jack Heinlen]

Fresh eggs, unboiled, rubbed with margerine will last a suprisingly long time without a fridge. Like a month. Though at the end of that a good sniff is in order.

Basically, you are blocking the pores in the shell and so cutting off the oxygen and bacteria. Fairly sterile as they come from the hen, if you catch them fresh and stop the O2.

[Hwyl]

One crossing we bought a whole parma ham (for some reason known as prosciutto here). We snacked on it, made sandwiches and cooked it like bacon. They last for ages.

My red meat less diet trained saliva glands are going ballistic thinking about it.

[Paul Pless]

As Wayne suggested, A Speck on the Sea is an excellent read.

I like George's characterization of boat sizes for transoceanic cruising. There's alot sense in his post.

Weight of food should not be an issue. I envision dried food for two or three meals a day, being fairly light, practical, and easy to carry. High tech backpacking type foodstuffs have become reasonably priced in the last ten years. Leave yourself the luxury of one 'fresh' meal a day though to make things bearable. BTW, there's always dried beans. Take enough water to make 1/3 of the trip, take a good watermaker, catch rainwater.

Oh yeah, don't forget the panic button, rent or buy an EPIRB.

Paul

BTW, I'm in the take a big enough boat to do it comfortably camp. Think about it, books, real food, warm dry cabin, plenty of water, good bourbon, a real chart table, a place to write.

[Venchka]

Nick Granger has put his account of sailin a 21' Shetland foureen most of the way around the world back on the web.

Voyage of the Aegre (http://www.mavc2002.com/caledoniayawl/aegresum.htm)

I wonder where Aegre falls on the small enough for an adventure scale?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Jack Heinlen]

I was under the impression that there were water makers based on the evapouration principle included in some liferaft kits There are, and they work from what I've read, if not as advertised.

Read Callahan's book, um, Survive if IIRC. Smart guy. Small boat holed and sunk in a matter of minutes. Prepared pretty well, he went into a raft somewhere mid-Atlantic. He had two of them, and did get water from them, but they never worked quite as well as expected. It's been awhile, but I think they were inflated collars with an umbrella and a collection bag that, in the right conditions made maybe a quart +- a day.

[Matt J.]

I believe it was Adrift 76 days lost at sea... it sounded like hell in a raft at times. No, his solar watermakers didn't often work right, though they did essentially sustain him. His time seemed evenly divided between finding food and fixing them to get water. Amazing story. We've passed that book around to more people than any other.

You all have us contemplating Rarus for voyaging. I think she's somewhere in between, but not sure whether it's more adventure or more enjoyment... I suppose as is, she'd be adventure, as modified (interior) it'd be almost luxury. This is the best thread in a long, long, time, Jack. Thanks.

[Venchka]

What we need is a 1-1/2 quart capacity wind/solar powered microwave! :cool:

Thanks to the fast food industry any well stocked super market is chock full of ready to eat, low bulk packaging foods in just about all the food groups. Tuna, beef and bacon all pre-cooked in foil packages. Milk in a box that keeps forever without refrigeration. Soups, stews & chili in single serving containers. Dried fruit and energy bars in waterproof foil. Instant grits, oatmeal, coffee & tea. Cheetos, pringles and pretzels in plastic cups. Nuts in all shapes, sizes and varieties. I read about a man who has hiked all of the major trails in North America. He walks at a killer pace and lives on 3 giant Snickers bars per day. Hmmmm... Unless you you just like the stuff, the days of sardines, spam, potted meat and vienna sausages are gone. :D

A company somewhere in cyber space produces ready to eat entrees with a long shelf life. Similar to MREs. Shucks, I almost omitted MREs. MSR used to offer meals with a built in heater. Are they still around? Or did legal concerns take them off the market? As previously mentioned, add in the backpacking gourmet foods and you'll eat like a king!

Long Life Food (http://www.longlifefood.com/)

Sea anchor! Don't leave home without it. Hamilton Marine lists 18"-24"-30"-36" diameter versions of these:

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/prodimg/CAL-926.JPG

Then there is the PARA-TECH sea anchor. The smallest size is 6 FEET in diameter. Seems too large for a wee boat of under a ton displacement. They also make an adjustable BOAT BRAKE. Which seems right?

Watermakers: PUR Survivor 06 claims a pint in half an hour. $600 + or - The PUR Survivor 35 claims 1.2 gallons/hour. $1,600 + or -

Infomercial guidelines from The Waterlog web page:

You can decide the requirements for your own vessel from the basic facts which are as follows:-

Depending on circumstances, a person requires a minimum of 0.8 liters (1 pint / 2 mugs) per day to maintain body hydration. Below this figure body organs are potentially compromised. The possible consequences are obvious.

In temperate latitudes, an active person needs about 1.7 liters (3 pints / 6 mugs) of water or food beverages per day. Some of this is in the form of solid foodstuffs, all of which have a relatively high water content to one degree or another.

In the Sub Tropics, an active person usually needs about 2.3 to 3.0 liters or so (4 to 5 pints / 9 mugs) per day to maintain comfort. Although there will be great variation between individuals and their amount of physical activity, this is probably the typical cruising yacht scenario.

A heavily built person crewing on an ocean racing yacht being driven hard in hot humid tropics may require up to 9 liters (2 gallons) (27 mugs) per day.

Waterlog is a towed device claiming 24 gal. max. output per day for $1,280.

Waterlog (http://www.watermakers.ws/watermakers%20ffp.htm)

North Carolina-Bermuda-Azores-Portugal anyone?

Where can weather and current data be found for the North Atlantic? Shipping lanes?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 02-22-2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Jack Heinlen]

Ah yes, Adrift . Remarkable story, well written.

I'd like to meet him sometime. He was at the Bangor library recently giving a lecture, but I, stupidly, missed it.

How's his company that set out to make a folding hard raft, that sails, coming? I remember a frequent lament from his book, "If only I had some sails, and not this frumpy raft!"

76 days, with caught fish and wonky solar stills! I also remember that it changed him, in what can only be called spiritual ways.

Venchka,

Jimmy Cornell's frequently updated Cruising Routes is chocked full of info on wind and current conditions at various times of the year, for the entire globe. I remember when this came up before that the British Admiralty publishes a similar volume, have since the days when it was all sailing ships. I have no idea which is better, but Cornell's seems pretty good.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Hwyl:
...I think your New Brunswick---Skye route would take you into the Southern range of Icebergs.I see what you mean.

http://www.uscg.mil/lantarea/iip/pics/icebergalley.gif

That didn't seem to bother Gearge Clooney. :rolleyes: However, he didn't make it back. :confused:

Wayne in the Swamp. :D

[Venchka]

Here you go, a solar still for $200.

http://store1.yimg.com/I/landfallnav_1833_7473452

Solar Still (http://www.landfallnavigation.com/memss.html)

Continuing the safety theme...radar reflectors. Do they work well enough to justify having them aboard?

Two styles seem appropriate for small craft.

The Davis Echomaster

http://store1.yimg.com/I/landfallnav_1830_21460053

and an inflatable EcoMax

http://store1.yimg.com/I/landfallnav_1829_22380871

Can anyone shed any light on either of these?

Radar Reflectors (http://www.landfallnavigation.com/radarreflectors.html)

Jack, how are you coming on the mods to the Luggar? Will you ready this summer? :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 02-23-2005, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Jack Heinlen]

It's still c-c-cold here. Unheated shop. And I have no intention of making the mods this spring. Plan to sail the boat some more, and do more thinking.

Good thread. Thanks again.

[Venchka]

I hear you, Jack. I was tugging at your leg. It isn't cold here, but I may need my Water Survival School training to get from the office to the car. I suppose that might be good practice for a fool notion like sailing a wee boat across the Pond.

I know you mentioned way back in the beginning that you might pull the liner out of the hull. What will that do to the overall rigidity of the hull? Turn it into something akin to an overcooked noodle or is the hull pretty stiff all by itself? If so, would the new structure restore the hulls stiffness? I'm just wondering out loud. You know your boat way better than I do.

Do you remember the article in WoodenBoat 12 months or so ago about Jenny and Big Jenny? As I recall, one or both of them had enough deck to make for dry sleeping. In my daydreaming since you started this discussion, it's all your fault, I'm stumped for any kind of deck on Elisabeth Grace that doesn't prevent access to the foremast without slithering about on a wet, curved, slippery surface. That's probably reason enough to stop daydreaming.

Slot in centercase top: could you build a box affair open at the top and attached to the sides of the case? The top of said box up near the sheer? Trim back the lever arm on the centerboard and use a tackle to raise/lower the board. No doubt ugly as sin but you could bail the boat out if swamped.

Hunt up a used Drascombe Coaster in North America?

http://www.drascombe.co.uk/images/Coaster2.gif

Not the same as sailing YOUR boat though.

Cheers!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by Venchka:
...radar reflectors. Do they work well enough to justify having them aboard?

:D This must be a rhetorical question, or a trolling attempt. They are essential.

[Wild Dingo]

Originally posted by uncas:
she is big enough...but for supplies, she isn't.
I would have to tear apart everything...and above all, put in a much larger water tank.
So...Soooo stop more often! :rolleyes: ... break the journey into smaller peices stoppin off at a lot of different places along the way :cool: ... yer just procrastinatin mate! tongue.gif

hahaha like me eh?!! ;)

[ 02-24-2005, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Hwyl:
...This must be a rhetorical question, or a trolling attempt. They are essential.I figured that. Nice to have confirmation. Hope somebody is watching the scope on the other end.

This is way cool.

http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk/images/bc3-001.jpg http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk/images/bc3-002.jpg http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk/images/bc3-003.jpg

Uncas-

Shane is right. Get out there!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[paladin]

When you get really serious....maybe we can have a cuppa coffee....
You don't really need 90% of the junk that you think you do........but ya gotta know where you ain't...so start learning basic celestial nav and forget the GPS......

[Doug Wood]

Jack - FYI, I just noticed that the White/Hamlin 32' yawl I believe you once expressed interest in just took a nose dive on price.

[joejapan]

It takes either a helluva' lot more bravery or a bit more lunacy than I have to take a small boat and " cross the pond " !

I'm not sure which it is, but take a look at this guy who's gonna' do it in a " fish " boat that's about 20 feet long and powered by a 2.5 hp outboard.....
http://www.2hon5.ch/eng/_main.html !

Click on the " Pic " and, if you look closely you'll see a blue colored scroll bar on the right where you can scroll down and see how he built his boat.

The " Positions " link will show you an animated map of him crossing the Med..out and across the Atlantic, through The Canal, up the coast to SF and, presumedly, across the Pacific to Japan.

I'd like to know what kind of provisions he takes with him......even being Japanese, he can't eat raw fish forever......!

[Hwyl]

Braam, I always kept watch. I still had a radar reflector though. I don't have as many miles as Paladin, but the miles are approaching 6 figures in just passages, so I know of what I speak.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

...radar reflectors. Do they work well enough to justify having them aboard? I've never gone to sea without one. They are a curious class of object. Hoisted half way up the backstay - or mounted on the mast - I've often looked up at one and worried about it falling off, fouling the topping lift, cutting through the backstay or chopping lumps out of the leech.

The thing I have never done is watched a radar screen for evidence of small boats, with or without radar reflectors.
I'd love to read a post from an experienced radar operator, who might be able to say that these things are; A big help, help sometimes, or even (gulp) no effing use at all.

Anyone here able to say?. What about radar transponders?.

[Hwyl]

Yes P.I. I have run boats with radar. The reflector looks like a well defined little square on the radar. They definitely help.

Somewhat tangentially, one boat had one of those "warning rings" on the radar. An alarm is supposed to go off when a target crosses into the circle defined by the ring. Images you could see clearly on the screen would not set off the alarm, even after playing with all the adjustments. I have heard anecdotal evidence that merchant ships tend to depend on those warning rings. Mine might have been a poor installation, or they may have improved over the years,

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Thanks.

[uncas]

Venchka...After reading these posts...Well, perhaps...
Made a date for 2008 with Andrew s/y R...to meet in the UK...
Plenty of time....to get organized and do something like this...
Cheers
jamj

[Smacksman]

I hope you have a strong stomach cos the motion will be pretty violent in a small light boat. 26 foot plus would be more comfortable.

Cover your new coachroof with solar panels and fit a wee diesel engine for battery charging even if you don't put a prop on the end.

Small inverter with a near sine wave and a gimballed microwave works well.

GPS is magic - leave the US and put a waypoint in for Falmouth. Solar powered battery charger for AA NiMhd batteries is great. You would do well to get an accurate sextant sight in such a small boat.

An auto pilot takes away the drudgery of helming.

PAR watermaker is great but pulls 20 amps. Makes beautiful water. Water off the sails is a bit too brackish for my tastes but ok for washing and cooking. Lots of water in lots of small containers you can wedge in places.

Fit a strobe masthead light - not legal but you will be seen, well, not in the troughs. Regulation nav lights pretty useless.

With your horizon, a ship will run you down within 15 minutes of first sighting it. Use a radar reflector by all means but trust more in luck - there is a lot of water out there.

You will be sailing so slowly that you may not have time to sail out of a ships track by the time you can work out what her track is, especially at night.

A twin jib twizzle rig on a furler is great for downwind trade cruising. I put some info and video up on the web - just Google for twizzle+rig and you will get there.

Vacuum packed beef will last weeks without a fridge. Bread making passes the time and is delicious. Don't bank of fishing - you'll starve.

My 2c worth.

[Venchka]

Here's an exhange I had with Nick Grainger about his small boat voyage...

Nick,

Some nuts & bolts questions:

The 50 gallons of fresh water for two-how many days did you plan for the water to last? How much water did you actually use on a daily basis? I have read that folks get by on 1/2 gallon (2 litres) per day. Is this reasonable?

What was the food ration, more or less, in pounds (kilos) per day?

Thanks!

Wayne
In the Swamp.
We planned to carry food and water for 100 days. A bit excessive but better to have more, or so we thought. 2 pints per day per person was what we worked on. Consuming it all. Never using fresh water for washing etc. That was the theory.

To manage water like this it's very important to measure the water out in some way. We decanted the water into a smaller container which was our daily allowance. Infact many days we wouldn't consume it all so got ahead of things. Also we caught rainwater and used that in the tropics particularly. Knowing we were using less than our plan we used some for a freshwater rinse periodically. Being so frugal we were never atually short of water - after the capsize we ratoned it even more carefully, but arrived in Pago still with quite a few gallons.

Weight of food by day? Sorry no idea. As you'll have read we packed it into 1/2 and 1 litre polythene containers and then nested these in stacks under the foredeck. But we also had lots of eggs, tins, fruit cakes and so on stowed all over the place. The boat was 9 inches down on her empty/daysailer lines! Still sailed just fine - carried good way through the waves!.

Sorry for the delayed reply - been away working in SE Asia.

Nick Sail South till the Butter Melts (http://www.sailsouthtillthebuttermelts.com/)

More data points for you, Jack.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[George Roberts]

Jack Heinlen ---

You can parboil the eggs for a couple seconds to seal them up. They may last 6 months that way.

[Donn]

Originally posted by George Roberts:
Jack Heinlen ---

You can parboil the eggs for a couple seconds to seal them up. They may last 6 months that way.Or...they may turn to Sulfur Dioxide, and impart a wonderful scent to your galley. :eek:

[Norske3]

"The Pond is always bluer on the other side"...I would rather follow the coast....south from New England....a few months in the Carib...over to Central A....then south again...to Brazil..then maybe around the Horn if you want a challenge in a small boat :eek: ...up the west coast all the way to Alaska...all the while able to drop in to hundreds of places..up the Amazon!..in a small boat there is no place you couldn't get a close look at...meet some interesting people...take a real HOT shower...a good restaurant meal...so on .you could take years doing it if stopped to work a a few months an restock your wallet...keep a log and write a book....crossing the Atlantic would bore me...days and days of boredom with minutes of stark terror as I see another SEVENTY foot wave approach...especially if on a moonless night :eek:

All your questions answered here:
"The Self-Sufficient Sailor"
Authors: Mr/Mrs Pardey.

....at www.amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com)

[ 04-19-2005, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]