A little racing incident...

[John B]

We club race every second sunday. keeler 32ft '75' glass. Its the winter series. Nice day sunday actually ( monday here now). We're 3rd in the series. we always finish about 6th or 7th across the line because we don't make too many mistakes. I reckon they use us to set the other handicaps off.LOL.
Anyway.. 20 years of sailing boats and I've never protested anyone and not about to start.
This guy in a boat about the same as us failed to observe the fairway marks. We have one in particular.. a bit of a landmark called Bean rock lighthouse . So while us and the fleet were outside it beating against the tide( as the sailing instructions say), This guy sails inside out of the tide, runs the reefs( I often go in there myself when cruising home on a sunday evening) and makes about 1/5 a mile on us.
So we caught him and told him and assumed he'd do the right thing and withdraw. What do we find after the race. He wins it ,the jerk. Took one boats first off him. took our second off us and the third off another, with all the other points ramifications down the track. Sits there all smug knowing damn well he's won by cheating.
I had to leave.

[Hwyl]

http://www.flags.net/images/largeflags/ICSN0003.GIF

[Bruce Hooke]

:(

I can't imagine how someone could feel pround about "winning" in that way.

Did others see his shortcut? Even if nobody wanted to protest, I wonder if someone should speak to the guy and suggest that he is not likely to find much welcome if he keeps that sort of thing up.

[Hwyl]

I'll agree with Bruce, it might be worth making sure he knows he broke the rules. I have to admit I did a similar thing when the rule was left out of the sailing instructions, we popped inside an island. Everyone else assumed the rule (it made good sense) to be "unwritten". It all became moot when we popped a tang on one of the lowers a little later.

[Figment]

I want to go racing with you sometime, John.

My Wednesday Night skipper is your polar opposite. I have great affection and respect for the guy, but when fouled he throws a tantrum to rival any six year old kid. By the time he calms down and remembers to drive again we've lost at least one other boat.

Last week I couldn't resist a little jab at him after the race was done... Hey (name omitted), through all that hollering of yours, you never once said the word "protest". The other boat could've sailed on without penalty turns and appealed to the committee that they weren't properly hailed about the foul.

Oh, that got him going all over again. I had a good bit of rum in me by then, though, so it was more entertaining. :D

[Hwyl]

Figment, I was down in P Point when your Wednesday night series resulted in fisticuffs and firings. I was amazed the people could be so stupid.

[paladin]

This is the very reason that I have not participated in formal around the bouys racing. There's always one or two in the crowd that thinks the rules do not apply to them. In transocean or similar races there never seems to be those types of problems.....Many, many years ago we had one of those fellers that always seemed to take shortcuts.....and on the way to Montego bay he went inside us...and we were pretty damn close to someones territorial waters...this feller cut inside us and was the guest of some interesting folks for a couple of days, and the boat was a bit lighter when he left...

[Wild Wassa]

John B, you are entitled to protest. Why don't you protest against cheats or even mistakes?

Against sailing clubs we pay $10 for the right to protest which appears to be standard when we dinghy race. Sea Scouts just don't race against other Sea Scouts. I suppose big boat protests cost more?

I've been unfairly dealt with in the past and vowed to myself not to leave the site until all protests are in during important events, even if they are expected or not. One lady protested once over trumped-up charges, when she saw me leave the sailing club to go and buy something to eat. I didn't know a protest was in, until later that night when I was looking at the results, during a weekend regatta.

I was off buying fish and chips so couldn't defend myself during the protest. I lost only one place and she gained it. But saw how some people are prepared to work for any advantage. I'd only just helped her secure her boat on the beach, so she had seen me leave. If I had have been there, there would have been no protest. There were no grounds for a protest. I'd only just said to her, "see you in an hour or two."

At the Skipper's briefing did they state that any areas were off the course? We follow the ISAF and additional local rules and regs when we race, some things are always out of bounds like taking a short cut through a marina, but you are not always to know the local rules unless you ask, perhaps he just made a mistake.

At the Skipper's briefings when we have travelled away, I make sure that I ask what special rules do we sail to, that have not been mentioned, which are further to the ISAF rules. I then ask the question differently a second time always, to make sure I haven't had only part of an answer. The extra rules then flow out.

The guys who give the briefing often think that visitors know as much as they do about their local rules and overlook mentioning very simple things, always to do with out of bounds.

Next time you see him, say, "you owe us one" ... and if he does it again what will you do?

Warren.

[ 07-10-2005, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Figment]

No, this isn't the DIYC series. I only sailed that series one year, probably about ten years ago now. Too much pomp and posture for me.
I happened to be at the helm for the start of one race (skipper was tending to something below, iirc) and I made the mistake of actually getting a perfect start. Noone had bothered to clue me in on the unofficial policy of letting the club's board members barge in at the boat end of the line. Despite the fact that the skipper took the helm and lost six boats on the first leg, I believe we were actually DQ'd because of some small print about the "registered" skipper manning the helm at all times.

These days I do the Mudhead series. It's an hour's drive each way, but the people are worthwhile.
www.mudhead.org (http://www.mudhead.org)

[ 07-10-2005, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Figment ]

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Sometimes protests are sour grapes. This one is blatant breaking of rules. I'd file a protest.

[John B]

Yeah, Its all about the spirit of the thing really. We really expected him to withdraw without going to the protest room. We were wrong. He has been spoken to and we think that the result will not effect the points series but... you never know. A point might be in it. We should have protested. :eek:

Hey ,.. but it was nice day if a bit bipolar.
5 knot kite start, very light for the first mile, then about 15 knots and rain, then back to 10 , back to about 17 or 18 knots at times overpowered with the #1, then so hot that we just had to get wet gear off and then.... and then an absolutely gorgeous 8 knot, sun out, beat back up the harbour. beauty.

Before we went racing we had a drool over a verrrry nice Mull 40 for sale( called a Chico 40 here). Tony should buy it really. Well sorted offshore cruiser made when scantlings counted for something. You'd like one of them wouldn't ya Hwyl? Good looking go anywhere at fair speed unit to me.

[John B]

Oh, I meant to tell you what I missed on. An opportunity to go to Hamilton island ( Hamilton island race week)and race on an old maxi. Then come back across the Tasman on it . I just can't do it. 2 of the boys are going. :(

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I've been on boats that have been protested against for buoy room, windward boat, starting line... those are all in the spirit of competition... some skippers get over zealous on both sides of the protest. If you miss a mark... that's just cheating.

[Noah]

We got protested on Sat by another boat for what he thought was us tacking too close. My skipper did turns only because he didn't want to take it to the protest room. The problem was we were in the right. The other guy is your standard PHRF racer that doesn't really know the rules. He's a good sailor, but hasn't done any one design racing where you learn all about close boat tactics.

So anyway we did our turns just to not take it to the room, and it turns out it cost us the regatta. We got a 1st in the 1st race, and a 3rd after having to do a 720. It's no fun racing against boats that don't know the rules. I suppose the fact that it was driving rain for 8 hours on a 24ft open boat didn't help. Plus there wasn't quite enough wind to get it up on a plane. 2 more knots and we would have been gone!

Anyway, Protest the guy! You can't let cheaters ever win, cause they will keep doing it.

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by Noah:
"We got protested on Sat by another boat for what he thought was us tacking too close."

That's the hardest rule to determine when racing, 'keeping clear'. Even the definition is obscure. Keeping clear is, keeping clear so as not to cause another sailor to sail in an unseaman like way.

The best races that you can have are when you are 6" from each other. I don't mind other boats being an inch from me if they are not taking wind. Whereas other Skippers, if you get within a boat length or two, they are spitting the dummy and claim that that they are being obstructed.

They are the guys to keep clear of.

Warren.

[Noah]

"Keeping clear is, keeping clear so as not to cause another sailor to sail in an unseaman like way."

Right...we tacked onto Starboard with plenty of room, forcing him to tack as well. It was a busy mark rounding (we were well clear of the 2 boat length circle)and we needed to get away from the crap air of a J-120. He wasn't paying attention to our tack, and didn't notice until too late, when he had to crash tack. He really didn't like it. Tough deal. Keep your eyes out of the boat.

It sucks when you loose one of the biggest regatta's of the season because of some turd who doesn't like close boat racing. From my experience OD racers are familier with this stuff, and it's just part of the game. Everyone is close, and tactics count. I suppose we could have gone to the room, but that takes the fun out of sailing.

Noah

[ 07-11-2005, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Noah ]

[Wild Wassa]

Sometimes I think how easy it would be to give paybacks to mean spirited sailors. Most of these win at all cost sailors (the woman that I often have trouble with, the same woman mentioned above) are easy to round up. Next race you could put 1/2 dozen penalties on them in the box before the start and before they even knew what hit them ... but there is a rule that prevents that from happening.

Hunting is not allowed when racing. No sailor is to hunt another sailor ... sad that.

Warren.

[ 07-11-2005, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[David W Pratt]

My experiences in (very unsuccessful) frostbite dinghy racing indicate there is a world of difference between 1/8" and touching.

[John B]

We've worked out that in the series its affected the first place boat and us as 3rd place boat by 1 point each. So as we're parallel as it were ,the points relationship between us and that boat is of no consequence. The current second place boat had a DNS though so if we get to the end of the season and find we've lost a series place against them or any other boat by a point, there will be consequences.
We still hope that he does the decent thing and withdraws.

[John B]

well will you look at that. I even have a pic of the guy at a start a few weeks ago.
close boat is the one in question, far boat is the one we try to beat ( leading the series)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid174/p4264d90c487dabae5df1c43712ecb512/f387799d.jpg

edited to remove the bad words.

[ 07-11-2005, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Jase]

weird name for a boat Roanga-Rahia......

[John B]

Where'd you get the rahia bit Jase?

[bamamick]

Apparently one out of every so many of us is born with some sort of chromosone that enables us to think that cheating is o.k., as long as you get away with it.

In a recent regatta (I will tell you it was in the Finn) I was trailing the pack. Not by much, but by a couple of boat lengths. Anyway, I touched the weather mark. Just skimmed it, but I hit it. Went back and re-rounded like I was supposed to.

Once we were in the club one of the guys racing asked me why I had gone back. I told him that I hit the mark. His response was 'so? Did anyone see you do it? Who would know?' When I told him that I would know, he laughed. Laughed because I thought that it was important to play by the rules.

I think that it was Paul Elvstrom who said that if you don't have the respect of your competitors then you've won nothing. My only goal in sail racing has always been that my competitors respect what I do. Sadly, as I have grown older and more experienced I have discovered that Mr.Elvstrom obviously lived in a different time than the one we live in now.

Every now and then something like this happens and makes me think seriously about giving up racing. I have actually given it up a time or two, but it never lasts. Our sport has it's flaws, and sometimes they are pretty big ones. And unfortunately for those of us who remember what it's supposed to be about, the flaws in the sport are not that uncommon anymore.

Mickey Lake

[bamamick]

Now, this is going to sound contradictory to what I just posted above, but........

Noah, in my experience it is almost impossible to prove that someone tacked too close to you unless you hit them. That's pretty much the way that we look at it around here.

Someone mentioned barging? It ain't gonna work, mate. You try barging in the fleets that I sail in and you are going to have some really bad starts, as in ocs's.

Speaking of starts, we have our Star Districts this weekend at my club. I'll bet you anything right now that there is at least one boat over early in every race, and that we get in at least one general recall. You've got to have ice water in your veins to get good starts in a good one design fleet.

Heehee. I really do love sailboat racing. Even if it is flawed.

Mickey Lake

[skuthorp]

The culture that says winning is everything, no matter how, and if your'e challenged bring in the lawyers is a blight. TV 'sport' is just entertainment, game playing for a living. There's a case in our football code where a certain ground is questioned as a 'safe working place' under industrial and workers comp legislation. That is no longer sport. But it's a shame when the same 'morals' infect amateur and social events, the only true sport left.

[Figment]

Originally posted by bamamick:

Someone mentioned barging? It ain't gonna work, mate. You try barging in the fleets that I sail in and you are going to have some really bad starts, as in ocs's.Yep, thats what I was used to at the time. Boats (dinghies) attempting to barge generally found themselves thunked into the transom of the committee boat.
Then came that couple of years when barging by claiming the committee boat as an "obstruction" was all the rage. My favorite RC of all time posted a modification to this rule in the day's Sailing Instructions. It went something like "the committee boat shall not be considered an obstruction. Any boat making contact with the committee boat for any reason will be scored DNS for that race."