We all knew this was coming. . .

[casem]

MD lawmakers want to make PFD wearing mandatory.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_8 _06_TRB.html (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_8_06_TRB.html)

[ 02-08-2006, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: casem ]

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Wow, that's weird. We have a mandatory boat operators licence now, but I am in favour of that. In fact, I wish they'd make it harder to qualify. but a PFD? On a 50 foot motoryacht, it would be strange to wear a lifejacket inside an air conditioned salon. :rolleyes:

[casem]

Or on a canoe in 2 feet of water. Or on a sail boat doing 2 knots out in the middle of nowhere.

[Wild Wassa]

" ... is the undeniable fact that as government further purports to assume for its citizens the responsibilities individuals should retain for themselves, dependence upon it only increases."

Too true. The worst alcoholics, the most wasted drug addicts and real problem gamblers in Australia, are the State Governments. They are totally addicted to the revenues.

Warren.

[casem]

Actually Peter if you read through the otherwise extremely stupid bill linked in the article, it does not apply to people down below. It was encouraging to read that the DNR "anticipates enormous resistance to the bill's requirements by the boating public". It also says that the DNR expects "that NRP contacts with the boating public would quadruple", which is the last thing we need.

FYI:
DNR = dept of natural resources
NRP = natrual resources police
FYI = for your information

[casem]

Someone should propose a bill prohibiting the enforcement of laws through fines. I'd be in favor of that one.

[Tom Galyen]

Does this apply to passengers on Ferry Boats? The article said it applied to all boats of any size so Ferry boats must be included. This would play havoc with schedules if you couldn't get under way because a passenger refused to put on a PFD.

Tom G. (Seaweed)

[L.W. Baxter]

FYI:
DNR = dept of natural resources
NRP = natrual resources police
FYI = for your information casem, you're so dry, I doubt you'd ever need a PFD. :D

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I live about 50 miles west of the Thousand Islands in Belleville, which is on the Bay of Quinte. The Thousand Islands is one of the most boat populated areas in the summertime you could think of. I've seen people drive their boat up on land, over shoals, into other boats, docks, and other solid objects. I've watched tourists cast lures into their kid's lips, smash into a dock waterskiing, and almost any other moronic behaviour you could think of combined with a boat. It's amazing what can happen out there.

I must be the only power boater out there without A/C, GPS, TV and DVD, and a stereo intended to fill Madison Square Gardens. Oh, and a Zodiac with a 20 horse engine or a jet ski. We have a nice 9 foot rowing dinghy. :D :rolleyes:

[pipefitter]

Yep,the same clueless crowd also made bicycle helmets a law here.Now the survivors of that have moved on to boats yet they just got the no helmet law for motorcycles which is one place I would wear one.The boating is as troublesome here as well tho. I went my whole life powerboating without ever hitting a manatee or other boaters.You should see the mayhem here at Gasparilla days boat parade.I'm not even getting close to the middle of that. Scarey stuff.
http://www.tbt.com/multimedia/archive/00009/gasparilla_9288b.jpg

[ 02-09-2006, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[George Roberts]

casem ---

I expect you have no problem with wearing a seat belt in your car.

I believe most people who die in the water are found without PFDs.

I expect the market will change to air cartridge inflatable PFDs.

No one gets in one of my boats without a PFD on.

[ishmael]

When to require donning of PFDs should be the discretion of the skipper. I realize that doesn't help much with so many idiots on the water these days, but I prefer people get the occasional Darwin award to the nanny state. What's next, no one allowed out above a certain wind speed or sea state?

Handing over these sorts of decisions to the beaureacrats encourages idiotic behavior rather than personal responsibility. I suppose I could support one time licensure to ensure people have a basic knowledge of the rules and traditions. I do recoil a bit at the idea, and knowing how to pass a test is a long way from being safe out there, but it might weed out the lowest IQs.

[Bruce Hooke]

While always wearing a PFD is clearly the safest route to go, there are, in my opinion, very clearly many situations in which the risk of not wearing a PFD are quite small -- almost certainly much less than the risk of, say, riding a bicycle down a city street, even with a helmet on, or getting in a car and driving on the highway, even with your seatbelt on. There are also times when it is very nice not to be wearing a PFD (try canoeing on a calm, hot, sunny day on a quiet sheltered body of water). I usually do wear a PFD when I am out canoeing, but I certainly like having the freedom to decide when not to.

I am also concerned that the motiviation for this bill may be raising money rather than protecting people.

However, I am also suspicious that this website is not giving us the full story. Something tells me that passengers on the deck of a cruise liner are not going to be told to put on PFD's when the ship enters Maryland waters!

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I hope there are still some Americans who believe that their liberties are worth fighting for. ;)

Such a bill would not stand a cat's chance, here (and we don't have compulsory licences, either!) smile.gif

[Paul Pless]

I suppose I could support one time licensure to ensure people have a basic knowledge of the rules and traditions. I do recoil a bit at the idea, and knowing how to pass a test is a long way from being safe out there, but it might weed out the lowest IQs. One of the results of requiring a boat operator's license in Alabama has been to cut down on the use of PWC by people under the age of 16 - a good thing.

No one gets in one of my boats without a PFD on.
A life vest is critical to the correct operation and handling of a kayak. This is not neccesarily true of al types of boats.

[ 02-09-2006, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[ishmael]

Paul,

Does that mean if I were to trail my boat to 'Bama I'd need a state license? I've always wanted to come down some Fall or Spring and cruise the barrier islands in the Gulf.

And how does licensure prevent someone under sixteen riding a PWC better than simply making it illegal? ID, I suppose.

I HATES ALL THE DAMN RULES! Let's all just bend over, get "chipped" and be done with it. ;)

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Paul Pless:
A life vest is critical to the correct operation and handling of a kayak. This is not neccesarily true of al types of boats.Paul, I am not challanging you on this (I don't know enough about kayaks to do so!), I am just curious about why you say this. Are you talking about the kind of kayak that one might roll, or about the type that is not designed to roll, or both, or...

[Paul Pless]

Bruce, I was mainly referring to the type of kayak that you roll.

[Bruce Hooke]

Interesting. I was not aware that a PFD was an integral part of "modern" kayak rolling. (I say "modern" because it certainly was not part of the Inuit rolling techniques!) Are you talking about river kayaks or sea kayaks, or both?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

The only kind of Kayak I know of where the PFD vest is integral to the basic technique is the custom cut squirt boat.

The exit to any submerged moves changes feel dramatically if you ditch the vest.

Slalom craft - white-water racers and the like the vest is only there for decoration.

[Bob Adams]

And they are keeping it very low key. I live in that $%&*!! state, and this is the first I've heard of it.

[Bruce Hooke]

Before everyone gets too worked up, note the following quote from this web page (http://www.townhall.com/blogs/c-log/TrevorBothwell/story/2006/02/08/185797.html):

There's little chance this bill will even make it out of committee...The bill is apparently just being pushed by 9 legislators.

Furthermore, according to this story (http://www.hometownannapolis.com/cgi-bin/read/2006/02_08-11/OPN):

[The bill has been] amended...to require the jackets only for passengers on water taxis and charter fishing boats.

[Figment]

I love it when they create COMPLETELY UNENFORCEABLE laws! :rolleyes:

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

One thing I would note about the people on WBF is that we are traditionalists, not only in the type of boats we own, but I would suspect in the way we operate them too. My father taught me, by example, what I know about boat operation and safety. When I was a kid, I was allowed to row my little dinghy out of sight of my parents, but I wore a life jacket, and my privileges with the dinghy were coupled with wearing it. I never removed it. I was enrolled in YMCA swimming classes at 4, even tho I could already swim, and I took them for two winters. My father carried tools, safety equipment, even plywood aboard the boat. We had well over 600 feet of rope aboard besides the anchor rode, and all this on a 30 foot sedan cruiser on Lake Ontario.

Today, I don't see the same due diligence by powerboaters particularly. They don't do their own maintenance, or don't do it. They don't know much, and don't impart anything on safety to their passengers. I guess lawmakers have to deal with them more than us. I can ask virtually anything about boats and boating, and get an answer here. We're not the people these laws are aimed at, but we pay for other people's lack of skill and knowledge.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Figment:
I love it when they create COMPLETELY UNENFORCEABLE laws! :rolleyes: Given the originally proposed fines, I don't think this law was so unenforceable, even in its original version when it applied to recreational boaters. Those fines would easily pay for the time and equipment to enforce such a law given how many people would be likely to violate it!

[Paul Pless]

Are you talking about river kayaks or sea kayaks, or both? I don't have much experience in any other type of kayak other than white water kayaks which I have played with for 22 years now. I know I would feel uncomfortable kayaking without wearing a vest. It does assist with the roll, and it also provides some protection from impacts.

[Bruce Hooke]

Paul, that certainly makes sense. Anyone messing around anywhere near whitewater should have a PFD on at all times. In my limited experience with whitewater, you EXPECT to end up in the water on a not infrequent basis, and that water can be pretty turbulent, so you'd have to be pretty foolish not to wear a PFD.

The situation in a sea kayak is a little different. While wearing a life jacket is certainly wise, it is less integral to the process.

[Paul Pless]

In my limited experience with whitewater, you EXPECT to end up in the water on a not infrequent basisLOL!

I also run an aluminum jet drive boat that I use for fishing in white water, you would be amazed at how often I've fallen out of that thing. :eek:

[ 02-09-2006, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Originally posted by Paul Pless:
... I know I would feel uncomfortable kayaking without wearing a vest. It does assist with the roll, and it also provides some protection from impacts.On the impact protection - Agreed.
The "Uncomfortable Feeling" - Agreed but I suspect this is mostly habit. Is there anyone else remembers 79 to 83 when the harishok "Life Deck" was permitted in competition.

On the "Assist with the roll" - I think not. I was a member of a club where we ran a charity rolling event - How many in a minute. I never saw anyone break 25 while wearing a vest - or 30 while using a paddle.

[George Roberts]

I did not mean just kayaks.

Every year in Oklahoma a couple people fall off docked boats and drown because they lack PFDs.

I was at Disney World with my kids and grandkids. They have boats for some transportation. I always made sure I stood near easily accessable PFDs. I always had a resuce plan for my grandkids. (I would have worn a PFD but lacking a law it seems to show a lack of trust.)

[John Bell]

Originally posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt:
The only kind of Kayak I know of where the PFD vest is integral to the basic technique is the custom cut squirt boat.

The exit to any submerged moves changes feel dramatically if you ditch the vest.

Slalom craft - white-water racers and the like the vest is only there for decoration.Back when I had a quiver of squirt boats, I had a minimal PFD, one that was explicity "illegal" to use outside of competition. It had maybe 10lbs of positive flotation.

But it was fantastic for getting serious downtime when doing mysteries. It also wouldn't mess up my screw-ups like a legal PFD would.

[casem]

First of all, L.W. :D

I'm glad to see most people agree that this is unnecessary. Also, I apologize to our left leaning friends for the article since it is a bit of a hit piece directed towards the MD democratic party, but the link to the bill is there and it is fairly straighforward to read.

Thanks for finding that article Bruce. I figured this was in response to something but I had forgotten about that water taxi accident. I feel a bit better after reading that. But the problem is if you get too many people who think like George :D , some kind of tragedy, and a majority of people who do not go out on the water, something like this can get passed (especially when they are charging $500-1000 per offense).

[Paul Pless]

I guess I should clarify that I am purely a recreational kayaker and that I personally have never paddled a kayak without wearing a life preserver and I don't anticipate ever doing so in the future. Also I do very much respect the opinions of both PI Stazzer Newt and John Bell on this issue. I would like to apologize if I misled anyone into making incorrect assumptions on the safe operation of a kayak, that was not my intent.

[ 02-09-2006, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Paul Pless ]

[Matt J.]

Sorry, but when we're aboard our sailboat, WE and only WE will make the choice when it is or is not safe to omit the PFD.

I'll be damned if I'm going to putz around a small bay in light airs playing with the boat on a hot (it gets ugly HOT and HUMID here on the Bay) wearing a damn PFD.

If it gets ugly out, we'll don the PFDs - we've done it in the past when we figure there's a chance of needing it. Fine me, I'll fight it in court and still remove the PFD once the damn DNR boys leave. :mad:

[George Roberts]

And when I am skipper of a boat you expect me to save you.

I will do my best to save you.

I will paddle or sail to the nearest telephone and contact the Coast Guard. If they find you, they can pull you out of the water.

[Paul Pless]

I was at Disney World with my kids and grandkids. They have boats for some transportation. I always made sure I stood near easily accessable PFDs. I always had a resuce plan for my grandkids. (I would have worn a PFD but lacking a law it seems to show a lack of trust.) George, you make a very good point, given the the recent sight seeing boat capsize in New York.

[Stari27]

WE just have to trust our friendly neighborhood lawmakers to "protect" us...! BS!
Anyone who gets in a boat with out knowing how to swim and does not wear a PDF is asking for it. Anyone in a boat being irresponsibly handled and not changing how the boat is handles is asking for it. Anyone in a boat in a dangerous situation and without a PDF, say weather or power loss, is asking for it. Let's get is straight, we are responsible for ourselves and keep "our friendly neighborhood lawmakers" out of our lives. One cannot cover all circumstances, but reason and common sense can prevail, other than for the Darwin Award applicants.
PetrB

[ 02-10-2006, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Stari27 ]

[Figment]

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Figment:
I love it when they create COMPLETELY UNENFORCEABLE laws! :rolleyes: Given the originally proposed fines, I don't think this law was so unenforceable, even in its original version when it applied to recreational boaters. Those fines would easily pay for the time and equipment to enforce such a law given how many people would be likely to violate it!</font>[/QUOTE]One could make the same argument toward the enforcement of NO WAKE zones, and yet....

[Matt J.]

George, I don't expect much from you... so I'm not disappointed. :rolleyes:

Joe, I do wear my seatbelt, and a helmet when on the motorcycle. Why? Because I find it little inconvenience and believe I’m safer that way… wouldn’t matter if I entered a state w/o seatbelt or helmet laws – I’d still wear them.

I believe it’s MY responsibility, and not the gummint’s, to maintain my safety. All those people who think seatbelt laws, motorcycle helmet laws, etc are necessary for the safety of individuals, don’t deserve their freedom – they’ve already given it away.

Further, those dumbasses who refuse to wear a motorcycle helmet or a seatbelt and get hurt for it… well, that’s the basis of the Darwin awards.

If I end up in the water w/o a PFD, then it’d be my own damn fault for not recognizing that the conditions (sea, wind, boat, my disposition, etc) warranted a PFD “just in case” – not the fault of the overbearing big brother you folks seem to depend on for your safety. Apparently if you choose not to wear a PFD, it’s the gummint’s fault for not requiring you too.

Ridiculous. I’m sick of those damn bureaucrats believing they need to think for me.

-Matt

[Steve Paskey]

I absolutely agree that the MD bill is a horrendously bad idea, but I would add two points.

First, I've read the bill as introduced in the Maryland legislature, and it makes an exception for persons who are below decks or in an enclosed cabin. Thus, the comment above about the absurdity of wearing a PFD in the air-conditioned salon of a 50-foot motor yacht isn't really applicable.

Second, the requirement can be satisfied by ANY coast-guard approved Type I, II, III, or V PFD. One of the inflatable belt packs would do it. If the bill passes, I'll be buying one.

[Matt J.]

So on a warm and sunny day on the Bay, you'd have no trouble being forced to wear a PFD - any PFD?

I find it an unacceptable invasion into my life.

J and I have put on PFDs when we feel it at all appropriate - same rule as reefing - do it at the instant when you first think maybe you should. I will not wear a PFD when I deem it unecessary simply because some joe blow redneck in his overpowered penile extension is drinking and boating again.

I have a connection in the MD senate... I've already requested some ear time.

[Bob Adams]

Originally posted by Steve Paskey:
I absolutely agree that the MD bill is a horrendously bad idea, but I would add two points.

First, I've read the bill as introduced in the Maryland legislature, and it makes an exception for persons who are below decks or in an enclosed cabin. Thus, the comment above about the absurdity of wearing a PFD in the air-conditioned salon of a 50-foot motor yacht isn't really applicable.

Second, the requirement can be satisfied by ANY coast-guard approved Type I, II, III, or V PFD. One of the inflatable belt packs would do it. If the bill passes, I'll be buying one.I'm sorry, but in good weather, I cannot see myself or my adult passengers wearing a PFD in the cockpit or flybridge of my 37 footer, especially on one of the Chesapeake's muggy days. Aint happening.

[willmarsh3]

I think I'd rather support a law that requires people to be educated in boating safety rather than strict government regulation of when a PFD is necessary. The Alabama requirement for a boating safety class to get a "V" on your drivers license before skippering a boat comes closer to what I like than a PFD law. IMHO education cuts down on a whole panoply of stupid and ignorant actions on the water.

Will

[chergui]

That's really ridiculous. I never wear a lifejacket and I feel safe. If it's rough and you're by yourself, sure put one on. I get a kick seeing the coast guard wearing a lifejacket on a perfectly calm summer day close to shore. They look like idiots. The ocean is no place for a beaurocracy. I think these people sit inside all day and are totally bored so they come up with these things for something to do.

[casem]

Originally posted by George Roberts:
And when I am skipper of a boat you expect me to save you.

I will do my best to save you.

I will paddle or sail to the nearest telephone and contact the Coast Guard. If they find you, they can pull you out of the water.Thanks George I appreciate that. And if the situation presented itself I would pull you out of the water myself. But what does this have to do with a bill forcing everyone to wear a life jacket all the time?

[George Roberts]

casem ---

I expect that by the time the Coast Guard gets to a person without a life jacket that person will be dead.

[ishmael]

George,

As the skipper of a vessel you are required by national and international law, as well as long tradition, to render assistance to people in serious trouble on the water, unless doing so would put you, your vessel, or your passengers in danger. Fail to do so and you could be prosecuted.

Why do you say some of the things you say? Just to stir things up?

[michigangeorge]

If we must have rules to protect the stupid- we should make strict licensing mandatory. USCG Power Squadron courses should be the minimum for operating any powercraft and more experience required to increase horsepower/weight ratings. The boating industry and jetski lobby will raise holy hell but the entry level powerboat and jetski are where the great majority of accidents happen and we could do with far less of these around anyway! We used to have WATERMEN (those who made thier living on the sea) and YACHTSMEN(those who go to sea for enjoyment)- now we only have BOATERS (fools who ruin it for the rest of us)!
And George- you make me afraid-very afraid!