Cost of Yachting

[ahp]

I went to the monthly dinner of our local sailing club. Our quest speaker spoke on sails. He is the owner of a high tech sail manufacturing company. Never mind which one, and he has spent most of his spare time as a foredeck ape on big boats.

The sails they make are like nothing I have ever heard of. Layers of synthetic material bonded together under great pressure on molds. He passed around samples. They were realy a marvel. The cost of jib would probably buy the house that a lot of the WBF members live in. Yet the boat speeds he was mentioning were nothing very much.

Now I know another reason why I have less and less interest in modern yachting. A little while ago I crewed on a brand new boat with every bell and whistle you can think of. It was as exciting as riding a turtle.

[Venchka]

Dollar for dollar
Pound for pound
Foot for foot
I don't see how you could have more fun than this on a boat

http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/david77/nessyawl.jpg

with your clothes on.

Keep it simple and have more fun!

[J. Dillon]

Of course "Yachting" needn't be costly you can get by with things found at the local dump. Even your dog can enjoy your finds.
;) http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid110/p22bc3e7945c8e73e21e2030147d30076/f9247a9c.jpg

BTW Venchka is that your boat ? Great action photo.

JD

[Venchka]

Wish it were me and my boat. I've sailed in conditions like that, but no chase boat/photographer. I didn't have to hike out like that. The picture is my boat's skinny sister-a Ness yawl, probably down under somewhere.

[Wild Wassa]

The shot of the Ness Yawl, looks like it was taken off the NSW South Coast, near the mouth of the Moruya River. The mountains in the background could be the part of the Bogong/Wadbilliga-Dua Wilderness.

Warren.

[ 04-03-2004, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Henning 4148]

Well, the mechanism is quite simple:

Develop high tech stuff for the out and out racers and then sell it a short time later to the club racing fraternity, then again a bit later on the mass market.

A good way to make money. There are similar approaches in selling motorbikes, bycicles, sport clothes, fishing rods, ...

The problem for most people is, that this racy stuff doesn't fit their needs.

A modern lightwight cruiser racer with a wide stern and a deep narrow fin may be fun in sheltered waters with little to medium winds, but it is a nightmare if your cruising ground has a short steep swell and harbours where you have to dry out alongside the wall.

These modern carbon and kevlar fibre reinforced plastic film sails may give the racer this extra bit of push he is looking for (probably there are only a few percent more efficiency, which would only in light winds translate into a relevant higher boatspeed, whereas as soon as you approach hull speed the effect should become hardly noticeable), but for a normal yachtsman who wants his sails to last years and years with little mainainance and care and poor storage these things are probably not the best compromise.

It's horses for courses. And it's everybody's own decision to decide what he needs and then buy that stuff. Although sometimes it can be difficult to actually get what you need because many shops only stock the latest fashion ... you may end up having to have the stuff you need made for you.

[Scott Rosen]

Good Yachting is in the eye of the beholder.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid11/peff3d5478be5a7eeb753612d1cf1762a/fe0f03f9.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid57/p500a40340a6efe9db8751cc3cbc68690/fc68ad70.jpg

[brian.cunningham]

Pete Culler has a nice writeup in "Skiffs and Schooners", about a couple who's weekend on their "modern" boat was ruined by a $5 part that took a week to get!

I was out cruising on Ted Warrens trimaran, just out for the day. There was a bunch of J-boats, the new ones not the cup boats, out there. I noticed thier carbon/kevlar sails, everyone running around like crazy. :confused: Then it dawned on me, they're racing! :eek: Funny thing is we circled them, twice!. Oh well...

[ahp]

Yes, it is amazing how much people pay to go slowly. If you want a thrill and a half, try a Hobey 16 in 25+ knots of wind. Terrifying! I am sorry that it is made out of that other stuff.

There are wood catamarans, although I have reservations about wood boats with sealed compartments. The Tornado comes to mind, and the Unicorn, which is British. Is it, was it wood?

[John Bell]

I spent the afternoon tearing around a triangular course in my 32 year old Sunfish look-a-like. The boat is worth maybe $400. Up on plane at 10-11 mph, there is no bigger thrill. I'm still grinnin'!

JB

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by Wild Wassa:
. Bogong/Wadbilliga-Dua Wilderness.

Warren.What a great name

[Concordia..41]

I don't need it (obviously) but the high tech stuff is cool. IMHO

Had a headstay in my hand today for a 62' mast - total weight = 5 lbs. Wayyyyy cool. Beats the crap out of ours that's so heavy I have to carry the coil over my shoulder. :rolleyes:

[John B]

Next ac races they'll have inflatable battens in their jibs. Imagine the cost in building those into 3DL sails.

On a small scale..... we shredded a spectra halyard today. I've been eying these halyards and jammer combinations the last couple of times we've been out on this particular boat.
Because the halyard always goes to the same point thereabouts the jammer has eaten the braid outer. We're sailing along on the wind fully powered up and bang, the big jib( code zero sort of affair on a spectra luff) goes flying and came down about a third of the way. The braid rolled down the core about 10 feet before it bunched up and ended up looking like a rolled down sock and then got jammed right up to the jammer.. We couldn't get the sail down without cutting the halyard ( which we didn't want to do) so we hoisted it back up and rolled the sail away.Then stripped away the braid off about 40 ft of halyard so we could then get it to go through the jammer and inside the mast.What a pain.

So there's a bit of hi tech that hasn't even lasted out a season. Bad system. Doesn't 'shift the nip'and the jammers are so much more aggressive than a cleat.

[ 04-04-2004, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: John B ]

[rbgarr]

One advance that I like is the new battens that will roll up in a roller furler. I'm now considering installing a roller furler for my battened blade jib.

[brian.cunningham]

Originally posted by ahp:
There are wood catamarans, although I have reservations about wood boats with sealed compartments. The Tornado comes to mind, and the Unicorn, which is British. Is it, was it wood?Noone has updated that design to include drains and inspection plates?

BTW How about 15knots with a sprit rig and a polytarp sail! :eek:
http://www.dilworth.org/boat/sailing.html
http://www.dilworth.org/boat/images/sail2.jpg
http://www.dilworth.org/boat/images/sail4.jpg

Not bad for a $3,000 boat smile.gif

[ 04-04-2004, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]

[Stiletto]

Is that a small Wharram, Brian?

[igatenby]

My Tornado has always had inspection hatches.

Ian

[Chris Coose]

It has never cost more than $800.00 in total a year (41 of them now, with three wood sailboats) to keep a classic boat in New England waters.
Most years it is the mooring fee, the paint etc. and the yard bill (less than $500.00).

I have never used yacht as a verb.

I don't have to pay for the view - I am the view.

I've lived long periods of time in Marblehead and Northeast Harbor and I've always given the yachters and the racers a wide berth, they need it on land or sea. Best that way.

[Wild Wassa]

Sorry Hwyl, I spelt Dua incorrectly, it's spelt Deua.

I like racing a little wooden dinghy in a low key way. The costs are almost nothing, ... so I can justify everything and if I don't put in a protest after a race, I've still got money for beer.

Warren.

ps, I am looking for a suitable bank to rob at the moment, I need a new suit of sails. I'll say to the cashier, "I only need this much thanks, I don't like the look of a Kevlar composite, although the grey ones aren't too bad." I wonder if the judge would give me time off, for my reserved taste in aesthetics, ;) .

[ 04-04-2004, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[brian.cunningham]

Originally posted by Stiletto:
Is that a small Wharram, Brian?Yes, one of his new "coastal" designs.
http://www.dilworth.org/boat/images/hitia_illustration.jpg
http://www.wharram.com/ctrek_photos/ctrek.shtml
http://www.wharram.com/images/Hitia17d.jpg
Someone's boat going "out the window" smile.gif

The above photo is a 17footer, but he's got plans for a 14footer as well

[L.W. Baxter]

Brian, that girl is sailing with no clothes on!

I may be into multihulls after all...

[ahp]

I might make a design suggestion: if that cat has no centerboards, it would be advisable to make the hulls asymmetrical, flat sides out, curved sides in, rocker in the bottom, and toe in the hulls a little. Then you don't centerboards or dagger boards.

[Figment]

Originally posted by Chris Coose:
It has never cost more than $800.00 in total a year (41 of them now, with three wood sailboats) to keep a classic boat in New England waters.
Most years it is the mooring fee, the paint etc. and the yard bill (less than $500.00).
Damn! I gotta move to Maine! $800/year won't keep a Sunfish around here!

Cheapest mooring price on the river (check me if I'm wrong, JD) is $75/foot, plus another $25/foot for winter storage!
That's $2000/year for a 20' boat before you even do a lick of maintenance.

I find myself steering clear of anything with the word "yacht" on the label. I'm starting to do the same with things labeled "marine", as there usually is a non-marine-labeled equivalent available for much less cost.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Originally posted by Chris Coose:
I don't have to pay for the view - I am the view.
:D :cool: :D

Do you mean you or Victoria?

tongue.gif

Wayne

[brian.cunningham]

Originally posted by ahp:
I might make a design suggestion: if that cat has no centerboards, it would be advisable to make the hulls asymmetrical, flat sides out, curved sides in, rocker in the bottom, and toe in the hulls a little. Then you don't centerboards or dagger boards.Good ideas.

Some of Wharram's designs have centerboards, but they're more for trim when reefing the rig.

Deep Vee hulls can get away w/o a centerboard/leeboard for cruising, but they don't tack as fast.

Toe in is how this double outriggers get's away w/o a centerboard.
http://www.wharram.com/images/000023.jpg

Humm, I wonder what the yacht club meantioned above would think of the plaid sail :D

[ 04-05-2004, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]

[John Bell]

Originally posted by L.W. Baxter:
Brian, that girl is sailing with no clothes on!

I may be into multihulls after all...I've often wondered if much of Wharram's popularity isn't due his skill in drawing vignettes of his designs that so successfully illustrate the dream of cruising on a tropical ocean with a boatload of naked wahines...

Pretty good marketing strategy, if you ask me!

[brian.cunningham]

Wharram does sell a lifestyle, the big difference from Wharram and the makers of powerboats with bikini clad models, is that Wharram actually lives the lifestyle he portrays.

He came back from the South Pacific after military service and started building afordable boats based on what he saw, then went sailing with his wife and (ahem) girlfriend.

But his designs are for people who just rather be out sailing.

though they are European ;)
Charters aboard Spirit of Gaia from Corfu, Greece (http://www.wharram.com/Charters_aboard_Spir-1.shtml)
We find many quiet anchorages, where all can swim off the stern ramp, which lowers down to the sea (we are Sea People and when possible swim naked), or we visit some of the pretty coastal towns and villages on Corfu and the mainland coast of Greece.Of course up here I'm thinking dry suit :rolleyes:

[brian.cunningham]

Back on subject..
an Olympic class Tornado (http://caicos.globat.com/~jtbonner.com/sailing.htm)
http://caicos.globat.com/~jtbonner.com/images/cork88w.jpg
http://caicos.globat.com/~jtbonner.com/images/cork84w.jpg
from http://www.ussailing.org/olympics/classes.htm
Speed! Speed! Speed! The Tornado catamaran is the fastest Olympic class boat. With 15-20 knots average speed, at maximum, Tornados reach 30 knots.

---

Renowned for its strict one-design racing, superb balance and ability to be raced at great speeds in open water, the Tornado has long been acknowledged as "an almost perfect boat." There is no boat of its size that can match a Tornado going to windward in extreme wave conditions. Now, with state of the art changes to its sailplan, the Tornado is shifting gears from high performance to extreme performance.

[Concordia..41]

Speed! Speed! Speed! The Tornado catamaran is the fastest Olympic class boat. With 15-20 knots average speed, at maximum, Tornados reach 30 knots.
"Holy dirty pants Batman!"

I have a need for speed, but thirty knots on that takes a better man than me ;)

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by brian.cunningham:
Wharram does sell a lifestyle, the big difference from Wharram and the makers of powerboats with bikini clad models, is that Wharram actually lives the lifestyle he portrays.

He came back from the South Pacific after military service and started building afordable boats based on what he saw, then went sailing with his wife and (ahem) girlfriend.

:Then he wrote "Two girls two catamarans and then one of the girls committed suicide. Not all is wonderful in paradise. In my opinion he is on the edge of being a cult leader. I was visiting his stand at Earls Court (London Boat Show)one year and he was talking about the "fact" that none of his offshore boats had ever capsized. I was chatting with a couple who owned a 30 something footer, I later saw the male part of the couple at the Guiness stand and he was furtively checking over his shoulder and told me "actually they often capsize, I've capsized mine" all the while glancing around and saying "Don't tell James I said this"

Edited to say no harm meant Brian, I generally agree with all your posts except your liking and believing Wharram. Here is great Tornado page

http://www.acay.com.au/~gonzo/tornado.htm

Also take a look at the work of the wonderful British designer Rod Macalpine Downie (he designed the speed record Proas Crossbow 1 &II
and also read my thread about Steve Fossett on this board.

[ 04-06-2004, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[brian.cunningham]

Sorry to hear about his companion, one's never clear in those situations as to what's happened.

I never really believed none of Wharram's boats ever capsized. I do like some of his innovative low cost designs.

I try to keep an open mind when I look at just about everything, carefully picking and choosing what I think is the best in a situation.

Hence designing my own trimaran.

[brian.cunningham]

Originally posted by Hwyl:
Here is great Tornado page

http://www.acay.com.au/~gonzo/tornado.htm
Really cool page! Thanks! http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif
The C Class was specified as being a maximum of 25 feet long, 14 feet wide and with a sail area of 300 square feet maximum. Today this class is also known as the "Little America's Cup". BTW I wonder if they're are any woodies still in the Olypics?

[ 04-07-2004, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]

[MarkC]

Hey don't forget Woods Designs from the UK - they also do some nice catamarans

http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/