Gaff Schooner Seatrials..?How To?

[George Ray]

How does one one sea trial a gaff schooner?
What should one expect? We are struggling and having little luck getting any good feel for the boat. It seems there might be some rig balence issues but it could just as easily be us as we are newbies and currently over our heads on this vessel/rig.

We have a Tom Colvin clipper pinky schooner. LOD 40' , Beam 10.5', Draft 5.5' and it is just over a year since we started refitting her. The sails are new and are per Colvins sail plan for the vessel. We have Colvin's profile drawing for the hull and for the sails/rig. The vessel has been checked fairly carefully to see that it matched the drawings prior to having the new sails made. (Andy Soper - Kingston Sail loft)

One of the things I expected (naive perhaps) was that the vessel would balence well under foresail alone. We find that only by ballasting the vessel down about 6" in the stern will she start feel glorious and dancing about under foresail alone. When she is one her design lines (albiet 6" deeper than datum draft) she has weather helm under fore alone and can hardly be made to fall off and head down wind.

We are currently rigged with a tiller so balence is readily apparent. I am thinking about the kind of thigs I need to do to define and charactorize the behavior and balence of the hull and rig. (a)Lay a hull. (b)Fore Alone, (c)All lowers. (d)Main & Jib. etc etc

Many pics and specs available on request.

A few pics are avail at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~sailsouthport/

[Don Kurylko]

Contact the man directly at http://www.thomasecolvin.com/
I’m sure he would be able to provide you with all the information you need to get the boat sorted out.

Cheers,
Don

[Hwyl]

She's a nice looking boat. Have you tried her with all the sails? It seems to me that you can only expect her to sail as designed, with the sails set as designed. Anything else should be a bonus.

She'll be way underpowered on foresail alone. It might be a more realistic hope to have her sail on main and jib.

Has the sailmaker gone sailing with you?

Colvin schooners aren't noted for their sparkling performance, but I'm sure we can "get you sailing".

[George.]

We went through all that on Dalia a couple of years ago...

Under foresail only, you should expect some weather helm. A schooner won't really balance without headsails. Dalia balances well under foresail and staysail, under main, jib, and staysail, or under main, fore, staysail, jib, and jib topsail. She pretty much self-steers that way.

But you should be able to bear off under foresail only, although you need to let her get some way before giving her too much helm - otherwise she just stalls and the helm loses its "bite." Also, you should be able to tack under foresail only, but again, after she has picked up enough speed.

Another thing that helps with weather helm is to flatten the gaff sails by hauling hard on the clew outhaul. Initially, we had too much weather helm on Dalia because the main was perhaps 5 cm too long on the foot (on a 9,20 meter foot). We had it shortened, and it was enough to enable us to stretch it properly. It made a huge difference in weather helm and upwind performance.

Finally, when tacking in very light airs (less than 5 knots), if she looks like she is going to miss stays and be stuck in irons, you can push the main boom to windward. Spins her around to the new tack like magic... :D

We are off on a three-day cruise, but if you have any questions, post them - I'll be back on Wednesday evening.

[TomF]

Originally posted by Hwyl:
Colvin schooners aren't noted for their sparkling performance, but I'm sure we can "get you sailing".I think it's that Colvin has a different idea of the characteristics to design for. He and I had a rather terse exchange of e-mails covering some of this once ... but I'm sure he'd set you right about how to best tune the rig.

Colvin's emails made it rather plain that the only windward ability that he felt a real Seaman should care a damn about is reliably making progress to windward in foul weather. He quite clearly thought that worrying overly about pointing capacity, or even speed, was the mark of someone who'd never spent much time at sea ... and didn't understand what a seagoing boat really required.

That's consistent with his career trajectory, designing and operating commercial boats, and cruisers which have a very strong workboat ethic. Safe, reliable, burdensome, (relatively) easy to handle, tough as nails, repairable en route. No time for racing-inspired dilletantism, or go-fast stuff that will break, or for creature comforts that might detract from the boat's ability to work efficiently.

Frankly, that's what's always attracted me to Colvin's stuff ... no apologies, no-nonsense boats that can take you anywhere, if you're up to it yourself.

Let us know what you find out. And frankly, I'm jealous as hell. I'd love that boat.

[ 08-29-2005, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: TomF ]

[Ian McColgin]

George's experiences mirror mine except that I never found much balance difference between fore and forestaysail vs. fore alone.

There was, however, a power difference and my most snugged down rig turned out fully reefed fore and forestaysail. Under fore alone, whether reefed for a blow or full for lighter weather, my schooners have tended to be forereaching just a little, more a vigorous heave-to than really sailing.

Under fore alone, schooners are a little like underpowered cat boats in that they can stall at such a slow speed that they settle into irons. But that's not the same as weather helm.

Get used to keeping the sheets a bit free. Five points off the wind (just shy of 60 degrees) is a nice place for a schooner. In sloops they call that a tight reach but for a traditional schooner, that's beating.

[outofthenorm]

That's one pretty little ship George. She's a head turner for sure.

I have no experience with schoooner rig, but plenty with gaff. My main is about the same size as your foresail, so I'll offer the same advice I was given about twenty years ago when I was trying to figure our my rig (triple headsail cutter with gaff topsail). My sailmaker at the time suggested temporarily installing LOTS of tiny telltales all over the sails so I could tell what the air was doing when I adjusted the various bits of gear. With 2 halyards, 2 outhauls, sheets and a vang - all multiplied on a schooner - there are more ways to get it wrong than get it right, and the telltales helped. The telltales were simply 1 foot lengths of coloured thread passed through the sail with a needle to hang down all over the place like reef points. I put thirty or forty of them in and was able to visualize the windflow and see the direct (often counter-intuitive) result of tweaking this or shifting that. I could actually see the result of oversheeting or too much halyard tension or a change in outhaul tension. One of the key things I discovered is how important the vang is for getting to windward with a gaffer. After a dozen sails with the telltales I knew alot more about how it worked and I pulled most of them out . Best of luck with her!

- Norm

PS - Here's mine.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid163/p7bfddda662a7488ff9047574334b6702/f4a10c56.jpg

[Hwyl]

Originally posted by TomF:
Colvin's emails made it rather plain that the only windward ability that he felt a real Seaman should care a damn about is reliably making progress to windward in foul weather. He quite clearly thought that worrying overly about pointing capacity, or even speed, was the mark of someone who'd never spent much time at sea ... and didn't understand what a seagoing boat really required.

That's consistent with his career trajectory, designing and operating commercial boats, and cruisers which have a very strong workboat ethic. Safe, reliable, burdensome, (relatively) easy to handle, tough as nails, repairable en route. No time for racing-inspired dilletantism, or go-fast stuff that will break, or for creature comforts that might detract from the boat's ability to work efficiently.

Frankly, that's what's always attracted me to Colvin's stuff ... no apologies, no-nonsense boats that can take you anywhere, if you're up to it yourself.

Let us know what you find out. And frankly, I'm jealous as hell. I'd love that boat.I'm glad you admire Colvin's boats. I'm pretty sure I've got more miles under sail than he does and many different kinds of boats. He's welcome to his opinion, as surely as I am welcome to mine. The only thing is, mine (at least on here) is free.

I also agree with George and Ian's assesment. Some schooners sail well under Jib and Foresail (notably the ocean 60). I still go with my original assesment of sailing the boat under her full rig first. I'd wager she's under sailed and probably under ballasted. I'd be thinking about a main tops'l

[George Ray]

Thanks to all who are commenting on our project and the needed rig tune up/seatrial.

Here is where I am, map out a plan of attack that will (0) determine if a problem exists, (1) define the steps necessary to obtain data needed to plot a solution, (2) Go out on the water and run her through the steps. (3) Use data to plan the solution, (4) Do the work to solve the problem, (5) Go sailing...

The response so far is incredible and encouraging. Recently I have been making lists of owners/captains of (1) Colvin pinky's, (2) Tancook schooners, (3) small gaff schooners, (4) working gaff schooners of any size. There have been some helpful comments but I feel that I may not even know the right questions to ask and this forum is helping me with that whole process.

NOTES:
(i) Some schooner KittyHawk details at the end of the post.
(ii) many more pictures at:(wxx.imagestation.com/album/?id=2121577580)
(iii) attached is an excerpt from Tancook schooner owner (Tancook pic is in imagestation: see’ii’)

A LITTLE BACKGROUND:
The boat was built in 1990 and Colvin knew the owner and the builder and spoke very well of both. The owner commissioned a pure sailing cargo schooner and then decided to stick in the Sabb 2GZ (22hp variable pitch) at the last moment. Colvin has said the he is not sure he would have sold the plans if he knew she was to get a motor. The owner fell ill not long after delivery and it seems that it was never quite finished/dialed-in/tuned up. The boat sat for maybe10 years and the last owner 2000-2003 did use the boat to go to Cuba and Bahamas after he chopped 8' off the main boom, got rid of the canvas sails and had a bargain set of sails made where the foresail and the 8’-foot shortened mainsail are equivalent to a single reef on the original sail plan. The last owner is to be commended on using the boat but had little interest or patience in doing anything other than using what he found. The rig as we got it had no provision for reefing any of the sails and when asked about the trip to Cuba I was told, “We just use the full foresail (built as if reefed) if the wind picks up. The sheeting setup was difficult at best. I mention all this only to illustrate that the vessel/rig is really starting from scratch even though it is 15 years old.
I have restored the main boom to it’s design length and Andy Soper (recommended by Colvin) built the three lowers to Colvin’s sail plan. Mr. Soper just delivered a new main topsail but it seems wishful thinking at the moment when I am so full of doubt and trepidation about sailing with just the three lowers. We have a fisherman staysail and it is the only remaining canvas sail from the original set of sails as was made by STAR Sails in Beaufort NC.
It is my hope that by early November we can use the comments and observations from discussions such as the one here to see where we need to go. I am prepared to shift ballast as needed and run through tests and exercises, but we have to go out of town for about 30-days and all I will get between now and Sept. 6th is to pull off the sails and much of the running rigging and set up extra lines/anchors and chaffing gear in case of ....... well, you know that the Cape Fear area is often called ‘hurricane alley’.

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TO THE FOLKS THAT HAVE POSTED:

(a)DonKurylko:
We have been in touch with Mr. Colvin from the time we first looked at the boat and he has provided much much much much much valuable information. It is because I have asked so many many many many questions in the past that I am hesitant to load him up with more of my newbie sailing questions at the moment. To date I have been spending my time on fixing, cleaning, engineering basic systems and for that work I am fairly well suited. However, when it comes to feeling, judging, tweaking, tuning the rig I feel very lost. I wish the masts were on sliding tracks and I could turn the crank and move CE around. If it comes to it I am prepared to shift the spars.
It often goes through my mind these days "Be careful what you ask for, you might get it!", often followed by "If I send a query to Mr. Colvin, perhaps all my problems will be solved." ...... Seems to me that I have been a bit of a pest in asking a zillion questions on all manner of topics. Through it all he has been great and the next time I make an inquiry I want to be able to say with assurance that I have done all a reasonable person can be expected to do and now I REALLY need the help of the expert.
So here I am, having used up most of but not quite all of the, good will, friendly advice, helpful comment, credits, that one can reasonably expect a person in Mr. Colvin's position to provide.

(b)Hwyl:
The sailmaker, Andy Soper, is in Ontario Canada but he welcomes discussion. He was recommended by Mr. Colvin and ‘by the way’ he made about 10% of the sails in the movie ‘Master and Commander’. We have discussed solutions to possible and alleged problems, but I think that the situation calls for a plan of attack that starts with investigation and questions, hence this thread. I have felt ready to shift spars and such an inclination can be my curse. I was reminded by a fellow in Australia who has a Tancook Schooner that is very similar to Kitty Hawk of Tom Colvin’s injunction => Don’t just do something, Stand There!!!! Good advice for me.

(c)George:
I am encouraged to hear of your similar experiences and that you have worked through it.

(d) TomF:
Your observations about Mr. Colvin’s style and temperament mirror my own feeling.

(e) IanMcClogin:
Again, I am encouraged to hear of your similar experiences. I wish we were headed out sailing in the next few days instead of next month when we return from Maine....by car, darn’ it.

(f) Outofthenorm:
We will most certainly use your yarn method to help sensitize us to proper airflow. Your vessel’s a real beauty.

************************************************** *******************
OUR SCHOONER DETAILS:
Kitty Hawk: A Tom Colvin narrow beamed Clipper Pinky Schooner. Built by Bob Isles in St. Augustine FL in 1989 for a retired airline pilot Buck Noah. Spar Length: 56’ Bulwark Length: 47’
LOD: 40’
LWL: 35’
Beam: 10.5’
Draft: 5’ +
Net: 10 ton
Engine: 22hp Sabb w/ variable pitch propeller
Spars: 6061 T6_aluminum => tapered flag pole masts and straight pipe gaffs & booms
Spar-Note: last owner tangled with a bridge and popped the outer forestay and slightly bent the fore mast.
Sails: New per Colvin’s sail plan and built by Andy Soper, Kinston Ontario of ‘Top Gun’
Hull: 3/16” Corten plate and Mild steel frame.
Documented: recreational
Owners: George & Marybeth Ray, Southport, NC
Previous owner’s rig changes: ( changes other than bowed masts have been undone )
(0) He had a full set of canvas sails by STAR of Beaufort, NC with the boat but only the fisherman staysail remains intact.
(1) Chopped 8’ off the main boom.
(2) Had a bargain mainsail and foresail made that had luff length’s approximately equivalent to sail plan with first reef tied in.
(3) Tangled with a bridge and popped the outer forestay and bowed the foremast and very slightly bowed the mainmast.

************************************************** *******************
TANCOOK SCHOONER owner comments:
Hello again, I've attached a couple of photos. As you can see the rig is faithful to Chappelle's plan. In one of the pictures the foresail gaff is hooked on centerline by the gaff vang; this is due to a snarl up in the peak halyard, on that day. For what its worth, I think that a gaff vang is better than a traveler on the foresail...for one thing ,it makes gybing so easy and safe, even in a gale. In fact, the boomless foresail is a delight all round.

Originally, I started with a traveler on the jib, and on the mainsail. The jib was self tacking. In terms of efficiency, the problem with that its impossible to get a wide enough sheeting angle, AND THAT IS VERY BAD FOR A SCHOONER. The jib must sheet widest, the main closest. The other problem with travelers is the horrendous [and ultimately exhausting, due to broken sleep] noise they
make ,particularly when the boat rolls in a near calm. OK,there may be ways of locking the traveler position, but that doesn't deal with the sheet angle.

The main difference between a pinky and the whaler is ,of course, the
centreboard. One of the important virtues of a centreboard is its ability to CREATE weather helm, when for instance, the main is double reefed, but the jib and foresail are unreefed. I sail single-handed, and don’t always manage to set the optimum combination. I believe its fair to say that these schooners ,and long keel boats in general, need a fair bit of weather helm, in order that the rudder pushes to windward.

For a while[actually about 4000nms]I had to sail without using the
centreboard, due to its being jammed[since replaced, not enough clearance].I think I was tacking through 120 degrees, assuming I had a sail combination that gave some weather helm. Assuming there was too much wind for all sails,I would sometimes have all sails reefed, but often[esp if destination was to windward] I sail with main and jib only. Without the centreboard, I would struggle to get any weather helm with only the foresail up, thus making tacking extremely difficult.

So far ,Ive really only said; get the sheeting angles right, esp the jib. Here’s something else. Originally, I rigged everything with purchases[as per Hiscock’s older book].The problem with this is that ,for a schooner, the windage is appalling. This was clearly demonstrated by Four Years[name] sailing close and making little leeway in light breezes, but dramatically deteriorating in stronger winds. So ,Ive paid out for bronze self tailers on halyards, reducing windage by about 18 sq feet, I think.

I don’t think much of putting another jib on an extended bowsprit...the sheeting angle[sorry to keep carping on re those]will be yards too close.

Here’s another thought; originally I had a tiller...it worked fine in most ways, but it was pretty heavy[also didn’t allow enough angle for marina entries].I finally worked out why...it relates to the heavily raked sternpost---the approx ten foot tiller I had, actually had only about five foot of leverage due to the angle the tiller makes to the sternpost. I put that in because I don’t remember from your photos whether you have a wheel.

I really don’t believe you'll have to shift the masts. A lot of modern day sailors seem to believe that sail balance is an incredibly hard thing to get right. I think that’s mostly due to the inherent problems with fin keels/high aspect rigs/heeling combination that goes with modern yachts. I’ve had no trouble with getting balance on the few boats that I've designed and built[not having built a fin keeler...why would anyone bother, there’s thousands of them out there].

Sometimes I sail in to an anchorage with just the mainsail up, say downwind or reaching. Then when I want to anchor I just have to sheet hard in let go the tiller, and walk forward. I mention that to show the general tolerance of these boats. Centerboard up in that case.

Angle of heel is another area to think about. For efficiency[not to mention comfort],I think you need to aim for about 18 degrees only, perhaps heeling to 25 degrees in the gust...absolute maximum. Otherwise you'll slide off sideways. That’s just judging by the usual compass markings.

Nearly all of my sailing is distance sailing, with no-one at the helm..on all points, without any devices. Its worth remembering that while the rig may disappoint to windward[also the long keel form],it is superb reaching and downwind, where nearly all cruising takes place.

That’s about all I can think of for now...a final thought from Tom Colvin "don’t just do something, stand there!"...this applying to modifications, not sailing.

Feel free to ask questions, its not often I get to talk with anyone that owns something other than a plastic monstrosity.

Next May I begin a circumnavigation, perhaps we'll meet in the Caribbean.

Anyway, the pinky looks lovely.
David Judd

************************************************** *******************

HUMOR:
> They're know miss steaks in this e-mail cause we used special soft
> wear witch checks you're spelling. It is mower or lass a weigh to
> verify. How ever is can knot correct arrows in punctuation ore usage:
> an it will not fined words witch are miss used butt smelled rite. Four
> example; a paragraph could have mini flaws but wood bee past by the
> spell checker. And it wont catch the sentence fragment which you.
> Their fore, the massage is that proofreading is knot eliminated, it is
> still berry much reek wired.
*********************end of post***************************************

[TomF]

Originally posted by Hwyl:
I'm glad you admire Colvin's boats. I'm pretty sure I've got more miles under sail than he does and many different kinds of boats. He's welcome to his opinion, as surely as I am welcome to mine. Didn't mean to poke a stick at you ... both you and Colvin have way more experience than I'll ever have. My post gave a sweetened version of the very curmudgeonly e-mails I'd received from Colvin on this. I must have caught him on a bad day. What you (and Ian, and George) have said about tuning up makes plenty of sense to me, for the small bit that's worth.

I was just trying to say that to a degree, "performance" is in the eye of the beholder... and reflects design tradeoffs made by on purpose by the designer.

A Peterson coaster, a Colvin Pinky, and an Alden Malabar II are each desperately fine gaff schooners... but each would do some things better than the others. The pinky wouldn't win any offshore races like the Alden, or be as suited to an extended coastal cruise as the Peterson. But I'd guess it to have an easier motion in a gale than either of the others, whether sailing or hove-to.

[ 08-29-2005, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: TomF ]