Centreboard vs keel

[Paul G]

I am at the stage where I want a boat big enough to warrant a keel, about 26 ft. I have a couple of designs which could be built with either option. I realise the limitation of a keel in the shallows, but people tell me that a keel is the way to go for safety and stability when it blows. Any thoughts on the matter?

[THX712517]

With the keel, you have more initial stability, a bigger feeling boat, more interior space, and something that can be left out on a mooring more often. For a centerboard, though, you can trailer sail easier, giving you a wider range of sailing grounds, you can also sail in very shallow water without fearing too much, and the boat will feel more nimble, less like a big ship. What kind of designs are you looking at? What sailing grounds? Trailer sailing an option, or are you going to be able to leave it in?

Depends a lot on your choices, really.

[Bruce Hooke]

A lot depends on the sort of sailing you will be doing. It seems like most serious offshore (monohull) sailboats have a fixed keel. Sailboats only used in sheltered waters clearly do just fine with a centerboard. Where you fit into this range of sailing conditions will have a lot to do with what choice is right for you.

It should be noted that it is possible to design a self-righting centerboard boat, but it does usually seem to involve other compromises. For example, high topsides and cabins that go all the way out to the gunwale can help make a boat self-righting but you pay in windage, looks, and difficulty in getting aboard the boat, either from a dinghy or in a rescue situation.

Another factor to consider besides straight stability is how comfortable the motion of the boat will be in heavy seas. All that weight down low on a keel can reduce how much a boat rolls and thus make it more comfortable to be on board, but this factor is less significant if being caught out in heavy seas is likely to be a rare situation to be endured for a few hours well you get to shelter rather than a regular occurance as a result of making frequent extended passages away from shelter.

For the full-on argument in favor of a full keel for blue water sailing read C.A. Marchaj's Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor.

[Paul G]

Thanks for the input,

My sailing conditions are predominantly solo, inshore coastal. That said we get a lot of rough weather in the Hauraki Gulf and I want to take my family of four out as well. We have 60 gale days a year and plenty of wind warnings. I want to make passages along the coast around capes that stick out 50kms. I like the c/b option and have seriously considered the Dix Cape Henry 21 which has 500 kg of ballast and a 100 kg board. The other option is from John Welsford, a flat bottomed lapstrake double ender. However I have done a bit of research and it seems large trailer yachts are cumbersome enough to put people off driving to a ramp, rigging and sailing for just an afternoon.
I will have to make a compromise, The dream is a boat that will creep up a shallow river and get back home in rough sea and the teeth of a 30 knot blow.

So herein lies the problem. I would use a smaller boat more often and that would also suit my budget. A small trad wooden keeler can be got fairly cheaply and is an attractive option to restore. Trailering means something around that 20ft mark. Does anyone have suggestions on a good trailerable boat to suit my needs?

[Jase]

go the small keeler:) they can be slapped on a trailer with not too much worry and are as safe as houses.... (usually) my yacht started life as a centreboarder in 1905 and was converted to keeler on arrival in auckland 1907.... guess that tells you something about the conditions...

[John B]

Could we talk you into Nomad Paul? She deserves a first class owner and she.is.immaculate.
Not for the fainthearted.

[Jase]

she's a lovely boat... hope she finds an appreciative owner

[John B]

NOMAD, a NZ 26ft Mullet boat. Catboat on steroids.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p46691a9ff3465acdd487047e439ac191/fca92901.jpg

[Meerkat]

There are all sorts of blue water c/b boats, some of them made by prestige names like Hinckley.

I'm not sure which boat you mean by John Welsford's lapstrake double-ender, unless it's the "Whaleboat"? Have you looked at his "Penguin" design?

My personal preference, if I have to have a c/b, is one that stows in a stub under the sole. It's less easy to launch than a regular c/b boat, but it's not as hard as a full keeler.
http://www.selway-fisher.com/SandGroused1.gif

If you want a really nice 20' trad looking keelboat, you can hardly go wrong with Roger Dongray's "Golant Gaffer". That's been my choice so far.
http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatlists/images/golant.jpg
http://www.britanniaboats.com/on_trailer.jpg

[Paul G]

I have been looking for a while now and am losing contrast :rolleyes: everything looks good! Nomad is nice, but may be to racing oriented for me. I looked at the Golant Gaffer, somehow it doesnt belong on a trailer. missed out on this hereshoff Alerion http://202.21.128.20/photoserver/0/10302100_full.jpg
This beauty sold for 5k, damn I was a bit slow.

The Welsford double ender is 26 foot displaces 2500kg and is trailerable, if you have a V-8 truck. So many boats, I am spoilt as I have a boat ramp at the bottom of the street AND the harbour authority will put a mooring anywhere I like down there!

[shoal_draft_fantasies]

Interesting conversation over here
http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=004265#000030
on the egret ( shoal draft centerboard sharpie) designs that might be of interest to those reading this thread.

[Venchka]

Bruce Kirby's Norwalk Island Sharpies seem to be more popular Down Under. The 23 or 26 might suit your needs very well.

Norwalk Island Sharpies-US (http://users.rcn.com/jgclayt/)

Norwalk Island Sharpies-AUS (http://www.nisboats.com/)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[John B]

Paul. :D He's a clever fella, is our Wayne.

[ 06-01-2005, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Bruce Hooke]

I think it should at least be noted that some of the arguments Bruce Kirby presents are, I believe, directly contradicted by C.A. Marchajn in Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor. I am not knowledgeable enough to judge who is right and who is wrong (this subject is, after all, one of the great debates of the small boat world!), but I do think it is important to note that there are some very knowledgeable people who would, I believe, argue very strenuously against some of the ideas Bruce Kirby presents. One example of this is the question of which rides better in a seaway, a shallow draft boat or a full keel boat. As I recall, Marchaj presents some pretty detailed arguments in favor of the latter. What is good is that both Bruce Kirby and C.A. Marchaj go beyond just the ability of the boat to recover from a rollover, and address the issue of which boats will be most habitable in heavy weather, but they appear to reach rather different conclusions.

[Venchka]

Hmmmmmmm...

How much underbody did the likes of Centennial, Sea Bird, the whaleboats from the Essex, James Caird, etc., etc. ad naseua have? I'm not suggesting that there is an absolute right or wrong answer to the eons old debate. Rather that good boats in good hands "bring 'em back alive."

I am quite sure that we can also find many examples of both hull shapes which have fared far worse than the examples above.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there are no guaranteed safe boats come what may. Maybe worse is the skipper who thinks his full keel, heavy displacement, blue water cruiser is bulletproof.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Stiletto]

Paul, I think I saw a Norwalk Island sharpie on Trade Me the other day. Might be worth a look.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Hmmmmmmm...

How much underbody did the likes of Centennial, Sea Bird, the whaleboats from the Essex, James Caird, etc., etc. ad naseua have? I'm not suggesting that there is an absolute right or wrong answer to the eons old debate. Rather that good boats in good hands "bring 'em back alive."

I am quite sure that we can also find many examples of both hull shapes which have fared far worse than the examples above.

I guess what I'm getting at is that there are no guaranteed safe boats come what may. Maybe worse is the skipper who thinks his full keel, heavy displacement, blue water cruiser is bulletproof.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D I don't think this is really a fair comparison. Sure boats like the James Caird survived some horrendous weather and made amazing journeys. However, they were usually crewed by downright heroic men who mostly took to such boats because it was all that was available. One has to wonder how many men took to similar boats in similarly desperate straights and never came back.

Experience is, of course, a very good thing, and someone who thinks their boat is bulletproof is asking for trouble, but there is little point in choosing a boat the demands a crew that is tough and experienced in the extreme if one has other choices available.

To illustrate both points -- it is my understanding that in the '79 Fastnet Race not a few boats were abandoned by their crews when the boats where still sound and floating and the boats were in fact able to survive the rest of storm unmanned! The explanation for this seemingly bizarre behavior on the part of the crews appears to be that the motion on the boat was so uncomfortable that they were not able to think clearly or act rationally. A more experienced crew might have been better able to handle the situation, but any good offshore boat should be able to take care of it's crew well enough so that a rubber raft would not seem preferable to a sound sailboat!

[Jase]

Paul, I always assumed you were Tauranga Based but i'm sure I have seen your pathfinder up west harbour/kauri point way on alot of occasions when i'm out sailing....?

[shoal_draft_fantasies]

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
...
it is my understanding that in the '79 Fastnet Race not a few boats were abandoned by their crews when the boats where still sound and floating and the boats were in fact able to survive the rest of storm unmanned! The explanation for this seemingly bizarre behavior on the part of the crews appears to be that the motion on the boat was so uncomfortable that they were not able to think clearly or act rationally
...Agreed. I know someone that was on that race in a small boat.

He had been sailing since he could stand in the cockpit of a boat and racing since he was 6. On the boat he was racing on, those with less experience lost their emotional and rational control very early on.

Only the boat owner and he were able to keep a grip on things throughout the storm.

My conversations with him just after the race indicated that he was more concerned about potential for some irrational act on the part of the frightened and seasick crew down below than he was of the actual storm. His second greatest concern was exhaustion.

The seas that night were something else, and as he said "knowing they always feel twice as large in the dark made it easier to cope with".

When boats around them started to put up flares, it froze the inexperienced crew on the boat with fear, only with daylight did they begin to get functional again.

..sdf

[RodB]

This is a very interesting subject and has been for a very long time.

I too have been conflicted about going with a centerboard or a keel design and have sat on the fence for awhile considering designs of about 4 feet of draft with no centerboard such as the schooner "Susan" or Stadel's Pilot sloop or perhaps an Albert Strange full keel design.

Back to centerboards...Having read the literature by and about Commodore Munroe and his Presto types...and seriously contemplating building a related craft... I certainly can vouch for the existence of this controversy's existence still in the present. I have been referred to "Seaworthiness, the Forgotten Factor" by a couple of NA's. but also have gotten different opinions from others.

I too would like to come up with the ultimate solution in a shoal draft vessel with solid offshore capability, great aesthetics, and ease of handling.

From those who do not agree with Commodore Munroe and his centerboard seaworthiness ideas... I have been told the following (synopsis). "He was a consummate sailor who would have survived in a bathtub". Altough he sailed hundreds, even thousands of days in his life, but was pretty lucky for all those many years and never met with ultimate conditions. ...Presto was probably out of control running downwind in a serious blow...very much subject to a broach. The commodore continued to add ballast to Presto until her behavior and sail carrying abilities satisfied him... etc... And of course... the observation... you never hear from those who sailed with insufficient stability who never came back!

If you read the views of the Commodore and Vincent Gilpin on this exact subject, they sure felt strongly about their comfortable safety margin when sailing offshore in a serious blow with a centerboard design versus a deep keel boat.

The Presto 34 I am considering now will not have such a high ballast/disp ratio, but will have a significant amount of the ballast located externally to insure added stability and righting moment but at the same time maintain shoal draft. I have looked at older traditional centerboarders designated as offshore cruisers... by designers such as Alden, Crocker, and Atkin...and have noticed similarities such as plenty of ballast in a long shallow, wide keel. It seems difficult to find much data on the performance of such craft in severe conditions but they were certainly not "in vogue" at the time and very few were developed..definitely seen as "compromise designs".

See posting "Update: re" Presto..." about Presto and developing a newer design to update the concept.

I wonder if the line of Southerly Yachts in the UK with the hydraulic keel/centerboard mechanism could not be the state of the art solution for the ultimate shoal draft design with excellent offshore capability.

RB

[ 06-01-2005, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Paul G]

This is me alright,

http://www.varuna.co.nz/images/stories/yawl_2.JPG

I have a weighted c/b, and the boat goes well. Its the young family I need to fit in here!. Sharpies appeal to me. I am not so experienced in boats to really know all the pros and cons of the c/b keel argument so this thread is very helpful.

[Jase]

yep definatly you i have seen, I drive the Gaff cutter with E24 on the sail... Varuna looks good as a yawl, you going to re-fit the boomkin?

[Paul G]

The mizzen was there for a bit of light wind fun. I dont think I will be making it permanent in a hurry.

I went out last Saturday morning as a sloop, the forecast was for a gusty 40 knot Norwester and even with a double reefed main I got knocked down filling the boat with a fair bit of brine. thanks to the weighted board I recovered well. (partly giving rise to this thread on keels)
The last time I went out in those conditions as a yawl I had a difficult time trimming the sails at either end. First lee helm then weather helm and so on. At least with a single sail I have only one sheet to release. I dont want to be worrying about enough ballast down below as well.

[Jase]

thats where the white faced crew member comes in handy smile.gif How much sheeting does the Mizzen really require??

[Henning 4148]

One question I would connect with safety is weather forecasts. If you are going to sail depending on weather forecasts, the weather forecasts in your sailing area tend to be accurate and you have harbours which are close to each other and open at all states of tide, you can quite safely sail a boat which wouldn't be ideal for severe conditions.

If your harbours are far apart (as your 50 km capes would suggest), you would be looking for something more seaworthy to enable you to face it for several hours if necessary.

Another factor as already suggested above is comfort. A more heavily built boat will tend to be more comfortable in a seaway than a lightweight racer. Seen some of that in the Bristol Channel, when it blew a lightweight would often turn back, not because she couldn't take it, but because of the motion of the boat beeing too uncomfortable. In the same conditions, the crews of the heavier displacement boats seemed happier. One type of boat still regarded as a very good sea boat is the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter, certainly not a lightweight.

Designers for shallow but seaworthy cruising boats - well, there is Maurice Griffiths for instance.

Combinations of a shallow keel and a centerboard are not uncommon in Europe, one (daysailer around 20 ft which can be trailered) design is the Hansa-Jolle by Abeking and Rasmussen.

www.hansajolle.de/index.php?option=content&task=blogsection&id=6&Itemid=45 (http://www.hansajolle.de/index.php?option=content&task=blogsection&id=6&Itemid=45)

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Paul G:

I went out last Saturday morning as a sloop, the forecast was for a gusty 40 knot Norwester and even with a double reefed main I got knocked down filling the boat with a fair bit of brine. thanks to the weighted board I recovered well. (partly giving rise to this thread on keels)
The last time I went out in those conditions as a yawl I had a difficult time trimming the sails at either end. First lee helm then weather helm and so on. At least with a single sail I have only one sheet to release. I dont want to be worrying about enough ballast down below as well.That Perillo fellow has obviously been a bad, BAD influence on you! Most sane people don't go out in 40kt wind conditions! :D

[Bruce Hooke]

Having posted some of the arguments for deep draft I now want to follow up on what Henning 4148 said and look at the other side. In areas where the weather forecasts are at all decent, and where shelter is available in a matter of half a day under most weather conditions it should be fairly easy to avoid "ultimate" storm conditions. This does mean that you may have to sit in port when conditions are questionable, and you certainly can't act like the racers who go out in just about anything, but those may be quite reasonable compromises to make in exchange for good gunkholing capability. A lot depends on very local factors. For example, on some parts of the Southeast US coast a strong wind can quickly make the only access to shelter very treacherous. A boat then either needs to be able to handle such inlets (and be operated by someone who really knows what they are doing) or be able to ride out the conditions at sea. In other places tides can cut off access to shelter for long periods of time, which also means having to ride out weather for longer than might otherwise be expected.

One thing I think any boat that ventures onto open water should be able to handle is serious tide rips and the resulting short steep waves. These kinds of conditions can be encounter even in fair weather, often with little warning. HOWEVER, one key here is that such conditions are generally fairly local so the factor of the boat being comfortable in such conditions is less of an issue -- the boat simply needs to be able to stay under control and afloat while it is navigated to better waters.

When considering gunkholing capability, another factor to consider is how easily the boat can be gotten free if you do go aground. A boat that draws 4' but that is easy to get back afloat if you go aground may well be able to go into many more places than a boat that draws 2' but that is much harder to recover from a grounding. I sailed a boat that drew 4' in the form of a relatively short (in the fore-and-aft direction) fin keel. The motor was an outboard that could be rotated through about 180 degrees. Most of the time, running aground in that boat (on a soft bottom) meant simply turning on the motor and rotating it to point to the side. This would spin the boat around on the keel and then you could power off. In a boat with an inboard motor you could well end up having to row out an anchor and kedge off under such conditions, at which point the tide might already have stranded you. Of course all of this very much depends on the local circumstances. Clearly, if there is any sea running or if the bottom is hard ledge or if there is a strong tidal current then a lot more caution is called for than if you are in a quiet, sheltered location with a bottom that is likely to be soft. Under the latter sort of conditions, I've felt comfortable with 12" of water under the keel, under the former I might well be worried with 20' under my keel.

[Dan McCosh]

The question about centerboard vs. keel is hardly a simple one. The main problem is that both are not necessarily related to any of the basic elements of hull stability, or seaworthiness. A centerboard boat can easily be a relatively full-bodied, heavily ballasted hull, or a flat-bottom boat with little righting moment. Ditto for a full-keel. Self-righting has little to do with a centerboard per se. Look at Finnisterre, the centerboarder that won three consecutive Bermuda races, most in very heavy air. Even Slocum's Spray could easy have sported a centerboard. The boats floating upside down these days tend to be full keel--evidence that this isn't the total issue. I've never seen a definitive treatment as to whether a deep keel is better or worse in very heavy seas--having a least some tendency to trip and roll. Although I sail a boat with an extreme righting moment on paper, it does get trickly in heavy following seas. A friend who owns a heavily ballasted center boarder, with a fuller hull shape, seems to do a bit better in these conditions.

[Zane Lewis]

Hi, I note that there is 26' Norwalk Island Sharpie in Westhaven for $14,000.
Re the centrerboard / Stability issue for NZ coastal crusing there are 100's of trailer yachts that do a lot of milage around our coast. While I cruse on a larger boat I do a lot of racing in trailer yachts and just to participat in NZ traileryacht events a design must pass a self writing test. I would suggest that you even consider a couple of seasons in one. A Nolex 22 is a good size and very capable in heavy weather. You are right about larger trailer yachts becoming a handfull in and around ramps but a little thought and a well designed trailer make a simple job of it. Also remember the costs associated with keeping a boat in the water all year round and antifouling etc.

Have a look at the N22 for a medium sized over nighter that is avaliable at a resonable cost and has an active association. I have contact details for Auckland is you wish.
http://noelex22.orcon.net.nz

or the Nolex 25 Trailer Yacht which is a large step up in weight and price but is capible of handling anything an under 30ft keel boat could be expected to cope with.
http://www.noelex25.co.nz/

or for something a little more spacious the Joker 8.2 mtr ( 27ft). This has water ballast and a ballasted CB. It is lighter than a Nolex 25 to tow and more spacious. the bottom is 1" thick Ply and get lighter going into the topsides. Probably not as capable in a blow due to windage but still as good as many 27fter's.

Or for a small Keeler the Raven 26 has a good class association and a good reputation for looking after their crew. Note their draft limitations on you for getting away from the crowds. This is becoming more of an issue in the Hauraki Gulf each summer.

Got to go more later.
NB I have assumed you will be buying initially before you build.
Zane

[John B]

Paul and I have talked about the sharpie at length. Its $18k asking price this time. I walk past it all the time at Westhaven.
The joker is a good boat. They get along really well. One of the multi hull designers IIRC. Given ? Tennant?. Ron Given I think.

[ 06-02-2005, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Paul G]

I am going to have a closer look at the sharpie, however I know someone who was very keen to build one before Rodney Wilson built this one. My friend noticed how the boat didnt seem to go well to windward and there are a few anecdotes about its poor performance in the motuihe channel... He did not build after seeing this one in action. Still its worth a look.

Thanks for the info on local trailer sailers, I certainly have respect for designs that handle our conditions and have low maintenance etc. But I am looking for a certain "Je ne sais quoi" that traditionally styled boats have. Realistically I want a boat that will take me to Barrier safely, get back from the bottom end of Waiheke no matter what, to get to work (sad but true). Trailering is fine if its not too cumbersome, and its really my preference. A keelboat needs to have the extra room and comfort and the safety factor to warrant the not inconsiderable cost of ongoing maintenance.

I agree with the comment about the need for a boat to handle a poor sea state, but only untill cover can be found, which unless out in the middle of the gulf, is not too far away. Our shallow channels, tides and regular helpings of strong wind demand a seaworthy boat, perhaps I need to focus on local designs or boats intended for similar conditions rather than boats designed for other locations.

The Dix 21 is high on the list today!

http://capeboatworks.com.au/Web%20Content/Dudley%20Dix/CH21/GaryWallis_in_Brittany.jpg

[John B]

I guess the only thing to do, sigh, is talk the owner into letting US take that Norwalk Island sharpie for a sail. Because my recollection of its performance is different from your friends. I told you I raced it in Waione back in the 90's sometime?. We were filthy dirty and relatively slow for us, but we crossed tacks with it several times.In fact there were words spoken an they were not friendly ones. The point is.. it went better than I expected at the time.( PS. I swore that I would never enter another race with a dirty hull after doing that one)
And Motuhuie channel... Honestly, I've seen some absolutely feral conditions in there ,wind against tide in a blow. So I wouldn't hold that against it.

[ 06-03-2005, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Paul G]

Here is a 26

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/designers/norwalk%20islands%20sharpies/NIS26penhallcruising.jpg

very tasty indeed

[John B]

they look good with the varnished coaming don't they.
that one at westhaven.. the S.M., looks a bit top heavy to me now that she's all paint.

[RodB]

Theres a partially completed NIS 26 for sale in the classified section of WB... has been there for a couple of months... asking about $6K with a trailer.

RB

[Stiletto]

Probably a bit far for him to bring home Rod. :D

[JimD]

A friend who owns a heavily ballasted center boarder, with a fuller hull shape, seems to do a bit better in these conditions. This is nice to know, as my latest bright idea is to attempt to design just such a vessel. Dan, can you say more about your friend's boat? What is the design?

[RodB]

Yea, I know, I just thought a used/partially completed boat of the type being discussed might have been of interest to someone reading this thread.

RB

[ 06-03-2005, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Zane Lewis]

What about 3'6" draft as in an H28. I have to say that this one is asking a good price but sounds like a top boat.
http://www.trademe.net.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Yachts-sail-boats/Moored-boats/auction-28729690.htm

I can even vouch for the top speed he is claiming. My Dad had one which he fitted a 3'6" bowsprit and added an extra 5ft to the mast to make into cutter. Get a good stong wind on or abaft the beam and she would just lie over onto her side an start skidding along. You could phyicaly feel her lift and take off when she got onto her side.

I can also remember have a couple of those "we're going to lose her" moments as well. At anchor on a lee shore with the surf breaking just behind us in 30kts plus, no engine and having to sail her off the anchor at day break. Or having to run for home behind a NE wind which peaked acordiong to the local harbour master at 73kts and having to pick up the mooring under sail with a 3 mile fetch pushing a large wind chop down onto the moorings.(Suspected case of food posining forced us to take a crew member for medical attention)
I've a soft spot for the H28 even if it will only make 120 deg between tacks in a sea way.
Cheer's
Zane