Why do you want to build new boats...

[Donn]

...instead of restoring old ones? The copyright thread, and the numerous statements like "I'd love to build a {insert design} some day," got me to thinking about this.

There are so many nice old wooden boats around, that would cost less to refloat than build new, I'd think more forumites would be doing it.

I suppose it's as simple as why do I like to build new gardens, although I like restoring old ones better.

So...what are your reasons? And, do any of you restorers hanker to build too?

[ 12-10-2002, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: LOON ]

[cs]

One big reason is that here in my neck of the woods there is not that many wooden boats. I'm always scanning the classifieds to see if there is something close by that fits what I want. So if I can't find one to re-build I will just build.

Chad

[Hugh Paterson]

Donn, I have only "discovered" two wooden boats recently that I thought were worthy of saving in lieu of building new ones.
I have found 3 more that might be worth keeping an eye on, but the owners dont want to sell at the moment. I have also been offered basket cases that people expect to sell because of historical interest but to put it bluntly are fit for firewood, and yes like a mug I occasionally buy them,(Cheap). I hate to say it but my heart occasionally overules my wallet (and time), simply put if I dont try to save the occasional one it disappears, I am currently lusting after a tatty old Dragon thats just worth saving, only because I learned to sail in one. The Sod that owns it is not capable of fixing it, cannot afford to rebuild it, but wont part with it, now that makes me angry :mad:
Shug

[Dave Fleming]

O&O East, it is a known in the real world of restoration/repair that it costs more to do the repair or restoration of a full hull than it does to build one anew.

1. Get a competent survey.
2. Do your own survey again, just to make sure you can do all the necessary work or at least 80% of it, yourself.
3. Brace-Shore and generally make sure the hull will not loose shape as you begin to dissect that hull to get at those bad pieces.
4. Finding matching materials, that could be as a guest for the Holy Grail these days.

ETC. ETC.

Just,as an expample look at the work Margo and Dave and now Edwin of Harrow are undertaking. The removal of the keel alone in both cases was a huge effort and a not too inconsiquential expense.

In my tired old eyes, the main reason for a restoration is to make whole again a particular hull or design that is no longer available or plans for a new build are unobtainable for one reason or other. Again to me, it is a true labour of love with a tangible goal to be achieved.
Ya folla? ;)

[Roger Stouff]

Mainly, because I like the act of creation nearly more than the use.

But second, upfront cost. I can spread out the cost of building on my meager budget over whatever time it takes to finish the project. Like CS, there are virtually no wooden boats left here of the type I'm interested in, so the upfront cost of purchasing one AND transporting it to me would be beyond my reach. This way, I can buy the plans, get some wood later, make and pay my way as I go.

And besides...I just like to build!

[Donn]

Originally posted by Dave Fleming:
O&O East, it is a known in the real world of restoration/repair that it costs more to do the repair or restoration of a full hull than it does to build one anew.

Hmmm...O&O West. Maybe I should restate, and not use the word "restore." I don't mean to make it "as new," rather to bring it to a usable state. That said, I seriously doubt that I could have a new LOON built for what I've got in her, and the same goes for the 2 wee boats in my carport.

[Dave Fleming]

OK, then O&O East, I can see where you are headed.

No argument that some not too complicated repairs to an existing hull that with those repairs will have a decent life ahead of her is reasonable.

I don't agree with using almost or true freebies as a valid example. You paid good money for LOON had a survey albiet done bye the then owners surveyor. You used the boat for some years and just this fall had some needed repairs done on her along with you own efforts working alongside the yard owner.Your repair bill was not exhorbitant based on usage or your limited till haulout, knowledge of the condition of LOON.
That fits the bill in my book of a valid example.
Am I making sense here?

[Greg H]

Somewhere tied up in it is the need for creativity. Some artists restore masterworks, some paint new works. I find the challenge of a pile of lumber and a plan, a pile of rocks and an idea or a blank canvas and tubes of paint on the table to be sort of an adventure.
When it is complete, you know every piece.

[J. Dillon]

I truly admire the guys that take on a restoration and even more the ones that finish the project. Some right here in this forum.

The real key is a good survey as mentioned before. The restores that omit this element to "save a buck" are in for a lot of trouble. They see things up front. Maybe a refastening .or.. a garboard plank needs to be replaced, off it comes, Oh the fame is rotten ... out it goes. S..t the keel looks bad ... the stem sound dull .. on it goes. Later you see the boat in the yard again a year later neglected and rotting away with a new plank in one side and the other still off with all the ills that a good survey could have told you about before you sunk in all that time and money.

Me, I'd rather build new any time. I have control of what goes into it and when to do it.

JD

[Adam C]

You know Donn, you never ever, really know the condition of the restored boat totally. Never. That bothers me.

There's always something you didn't or couldn't check, or something that got missed, or maybe even some unseen rot hidden somewhere. Building new would allow you to have good faith in a boat for at least the next couple decades.

Look at Bernadette and company...they're going to splash that boat nad never worry about the seaworthiness.

Plus lots of restorations are done on tight budgets that prohibit doing the whole boat at once. Something will be missed.

I guess this is just my slant after our seam bursting incident.

[Michael]

Though a newbie to this activity, I was partial to a restoration someday of a sizable vessel. Til I read Adam's story. I visualized my daughters in that storm. And I second his statement that you can't know every inch of a resto project unless you take it all apart and maybe not even then.

An older skiff might be a different story. If it was something I wanted to take to sea, new construction.

[cdragon]

Loon, I think there is lots of room for both of course, but in looking at "restoring" an older wooden boat-a few things need to be seriously considered-other than the obvious that it will cost too much and take too long. Many people get frustrated, broke and broken by trying to "restore" boats that are simply not worth it. By that I mean, boats that were built just as "boats", lots of wooden boats before the days of glass were built for a price and with a limited lifespan intended-restoring a 50 year old boat, built to last for 25 years, that is not significant in its design or construction is simply a battle doomed to defeat. On the other hand, restoring a boat that is worthy, is IMHO, a very important thing to do for a variety of reasons, and should be encourage and supported whenever possible-the "save a classic" thing is indeed valid and important but in no way should preclude someone from building theri brandy new dream either...

[JimD]

Like Roger and Greg suggest, there's just something about making something where before there was nothing, and standing back and looking at it and saying 'I made that'. I feel that way even if all I'm making is a new bin for the garbage cans in the back lane.

Restoring an old boat seems to me to be about history, sentiment, the need for community and continuity. Those things matter to me, too. Guess I just haven't found the right old boat yet.
jimd

[Donn]

Dave...I don't understand why freebies aren't good examples. When I bought LOON, I had 2 surveys done. The first was by a surveyor recommended by Alan McInnis, the designer. The second was by the man who surveyed it after it's restoration, for the guy I bought it from. Neither of them found the bad keel bolts, by the way. The McInnis man said the boat was past her useful life, and worth exactly what I was paying for her. The other guy said that with good maintenance, she would outlast me.

All...On LOON, I might never know all the things that could be wrong with her...or I might. I only know what I can see, and as time goes by, and I spend more time on her, I see more and more of her. Some of the repairs done this summer were pointed out by both surveys, 5 years ago. Others were discoveries made during those repairs. Holzbt has spotted a few other things that need to be done to her that were not seen by either surveyor. I've found problems based on postings on this forum, that were not seen by either surveyor. She is going to outlast me, either in my ownership, or in the hands of whoever I might sell her to.

As far as the Garvey and Sea Bright Skiff...I'll know every inch of every plank and frame by the time I'm done. I'll know every fastener and every bit of finish and trim personally.

I still maintain that I couldn't have any of the three built for the total that I'll end up spending on each of them. Maybe some forum builders could quote me on the following:

1. 30' twin diesel EM designed sedan cruiser, mahogany on oak. Cockpit, wheelhouse and cabin fitted out as a modest fishing craft. Include two 23 year old Nissan/Chrysler engines, rated for 14,000 hours, and used for 1400. Also include electronics that were $5000, 6-7 years ago.

2. 18' Sea Bright Skiff, 1" cedar lapstrake, oak ribbed, inboard and sprit rigged. Don't include engine.

3. 15' inboard displacement Garvey Utility, single 1" mahogany planked sides, 1" cedar planked bottom. Don't include engine.

BTW...I consider all 3 of them to be classics, and worth keeping on the water.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I respect both sides of this discussion. A couple of things come to mind. I would love to build, but I don't have the permanent facilities for me to feel comfortable with the process. (large boat)
I also think there are a lot of good wooden boats out there that would not break anyone to restore. I think restoration is a careful process that involves careful costing and time estimates. When you are finished, add 50% to both figures. :D
I have been involved with a number of classic cars, and restoration has usually cost more than the finished product. With the boat I have, I am trying to restore keeping the market value in mind :rolleyes: I think there are a lot of restorations that have been done properly too. I also think restorations are more environmentally friendly ... (less wood)

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Hey Donn .. post a picture of Loon...please

[Rosebud]

Because we enjoy working on old wooden boats and we make our living at it and we have fun doing it.

We want our children to have this opportunity. If people build new wooden boats now then an entire generation of young people will have something to work on in a few years! Alas the art and craft will not be lost if enough new wooden boats are built.

Jim and Kim and Lucy

[Donn]

Peter...here's an album with a half-dozen pics of her

LOON (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291583433)

[Don Z.]

Donn,
To me, it is very simple. I've done the restoration thing. When I first started, it was a lot of fun. I did enjoy it. Right now, due to a couple of different reasons, I'm restoring an old car... so why do I want to build the next one?

I've looked at the time involved in the projects, and realized that half of that was tearing apart what was there, just to see what I needed to do. THEN I made the new part and installed it. While there are some things that you wouldn't take apart (casting the keel, for instance) I still would rather just skip the rearing apart part... I want to start with just new stuff...

[On Vacation]

There is just something about taking a square peg and making it round. Doodling, I thinks its called. Passing the time with thoughts of what it will be, not what it was.

[ 12-10-2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[ken mcclure]

What Roger said.

Plus, I've yet to see EXACTLY the boat that I want. I'll probably wind up designing my own.

[Lowell Bernhardt]

Donn,

Like several here, there just arn't any old woodies here. I would love to rehab an old rotted out boat. There's something to me about taking something that was beautiful and now isn't and making it beautiful again. I've seen the pictures of old boat without keels, and with frames ripped out to be replaced. I don't know maybe I'm just sick, but that new fresh cut wood really makes that old aged wood look, "classic" to me.

On the other hand, although I've yet to build a boat (well, finish a boat). There is something about taking a stack of lumber and building something other than another stack of lumber out of it. Be it a home, table, bookcase, cabinet, or boat. Both give me a great sence of accomplishment(sp).

FWIW,
Lowell

[Chris Coose]

Another terrific reason to live in New England.
Every traditional yard seems to have a flower pot sitting in it.
When I was Matt Joyce's age, I had starry eyed visions of a new build and I was granted a great deal, which meant that I could:
Sail immediately
Have time to be with my family
Focus on more manageable wood boat projects/rebuilds.
Afford to buy some tools.
Build a barn - rebuild our farm house.
Work the farm
Go fishin and clammin and blueberrin
Go Camping.

But Rozinante has always lingered as a potential from scratch desire.
If I were to come across a deal on an already built Rozinante, that itch would ne satisfactorially scratched.
Life, as different as it is today, is still very full and I the 40 - 60 hours that the boats get each year is about what the market will bear.

[Shang]

...What all of these guys said...

Restoring the Chris has been interesting, and I've learned more than I actually wanted to know about laying new decking and rebuilding Holly 2V carbs...

...but now I'm ready for a wooden sail boat, and another building project, and learning some more stuff...
...And Santa is bringing me a set of plans! (since I've been such a goooood boy...)

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/images/400104.JPG

[J. Dillon]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p884dceaa2a9e14ce62374039709aec26/fcef631c.jpg

Restorers beware. This beauty appears to need just cosmetic work but when you look closely one can see that you are in for a lot of work to fix her up. Everything from the keel up is ROTTEN. Suprisingly the wind shild is intact and worth saving.

Presently it's a favorite for artists to capture on canvas.

JD

[On Vacation]

Excuse number ?: Mama told me to do it, this time. I always do what my mama tell me to do. smile.gif

[ 12-14-2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[garland reese]

There just aren't any old wooden boats around here that are in need of restoration/tlc. And from what I can tell, if there were, the fella that would own the cowpasture that she'd likely be sitting out in would most likely want some small bit of a fortune for you to haul her off. None of that, "hey look what I found!", around here. :D

Another reason for me is that a boat that we would own would likely never see a life in a slip or on a mooring. Most of her time would be spent on a trailer awaiting the relatively few but precious days that she could be put to her purpose. It seems that true wood boats are meant to spend their lives in the water and are much happier doing so.

I think that some form of wood composite construct is the logical way for us to look. I don't want just another plastic boat (though at this point that option ain't lookin' too bad for the short term.........I want to go learn to sail!). I enjoy the satisfaction of creating. I want something more than white, FG, marconi. I'd like to see a bit of "me" when I gaze upon her......even if "me" has a few warts. When I see the pics here of folks out on the water in their wood boats, it just seems right, sort of an escape from the modern world to some degree.
I'm glad there are folks who find and refurbish the old boats. If I ever come across one that I think I could manage, I'd sure give it consideration.

[Donn]

Chad and Garland, and everyone in between who lives somewhere with a shortage of project boats...that's what trucks are for. There are hundreds of online sources for project boats...used boats in need of repair or restoration. When I moved in here, and was shopping for something to fill my boathouse, I couldn't find anything close to home, but found Loon in the Boston area, from a listing on the web. I went and looked, had her surveyed, bought her and had her trucked down.

During my search, and ever since, I've found source after source for boats in need of help. Concentrate on the closest bit of coastline, and start searching through brokerage listings. They're out there, and the cost to truck one home to you is not excessive.

Here's an interesting item in E. Peoria, IL

http://www.oldboat.com/suite/classifieds/default/pictures/10348.jpg

I can't post the link straight to the dink, but it's on the second page of the "Launches" section at OldBoat.com (http://www.oldboat.com/cgi-bin/suite/classifieds/classifieds.cgi)

[ 12-14-2002, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: LOON ]

[Gary Bergman]

I'm in full agreement with Donn. There are so many boats out there that need so little done to enjoy them, that other than dinks, it makes almost no sense to me to build a new one unless you are the designer of said boat. then I can see it. Otherwise, fix her up, and get on the water!Also, from the 'restore' angle, is the object to be good as new and on the water, or stodgily saying,' that's screw or whatever is 'not correct', and I'll waste another year or twolookinbg for the 'correct' one. Life's short,enjoy...

[garland reese]

I'm about 500 miles minimum from a coast. If I searched and found a boat, assuming that I could buy it (like Chad, I can take small bites, but big chunks of cash all at once is difficult "at this juncture" in our life ;) ), then I'd have to pay to have her trucked. I might have to leave her sit for a good while just to come up with the cash to start to fix her up if she required major investment early in the process ..........."if I buy the bread, I can't afford the wine".
.......This is assuming that I could find an old wooden centerboarder that was made for the trailer life. Seems most sailboats built on the coasts were made for the coastal waters and to live on a mooring or in a slip, you know, full keel deep draft and all that jazz. I don't think my boat would ever see water bigger than Lake Texoma (a two hour drive).
But, I do appreciate the insight......this is an avenue I've not persued. It is worth looking into for sure. Thanks.
Maybe owning a boat just is not a reality for me?? :confused:

[ 12-14-2002, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: garland reese ]

[Bruce Taylor]

I built Piccolo 'cause I wanted a Piccolo. I've never seen an old Piccolo in need of restoration. I could have a new one built for three thousand dollars, or more, but I doubt that the workmanship would be much better than mine. Since mine cost me a couple of hundred bucks, and took just a few months to build, I think I did just the right thing.

Building Diablo might have been a mistake, although I do enjoy the boat. I already have a good fibreglass utility skiff that could have been fully refurbished in a couple of weekends. Or else, I could have found a nice wooden fixer-upper at a fraction of the price I paid to build Diablo from scratch. On the other hand, I had very particular weight and capacity requirements, and I needed to get the boat in the water fairly quickly. Diablo did the trick, but if I had it to do over, I might choose differently.

This year, I have my heart set on an ultralight lap. ply camping boat. I couldn't find a design that fit my needs, so I designed my own (with a lot of help from our buddies in D & P). It will take me less time to build this boat than it would take to find something remotely like it in need of repair.

Next year, I will want a Rushton-style cedar lapstrake decked sailing canoe, with batwing sails and a sliding seat. If I can find an old one at any price I'll pounce on it and drag it back to my cave. I don't think I will, though. Boats like the one I want don't come along all that often. I might get lucky, but if I don't...I'll make my own luck.

Donn, your garvey and sea skiff are lovely vessels that well deserve the effort you'll put into them. I'd cheerfully take on a project of that kind. However, if I were in the market for a heavy deep-draught cruiser w/ ballast keel and complex systems I would (for the reasons Adam gives) either pay what it takes to get a boat that is already seaworthy, or I'd build from scratch (on the premise that it's generally easier to build than to rebuild).

[Memphis Mike]

I, like so many of the rest, do not live
in a part of the country where there are
very many wooden boats.

I'd like to do a restoration sometime but
nothing is available here. I'd have to travel
hundreds of miles to pick one up and then
when I got there it may not be worth my
trouble.

In my daily travels at work, I'm always
keeping my eyes peeled and I check the
classified ads all the time but nothing
yet.

[ishmael]

I like what Bruce said, along with many others.

I've done not nearly enough of both, and both are satisfying in their own way. An older boat -- unless one of the projects occasionally profiled in WB that end up completely new except for the bit of original keel scarfed into new timber -- has a patina and a charm that is impossible to capture in new construction. And, the pleasure of taking set of plans, pile of materials, and carrying them from lofting to the water, is also great.

Depends too on what you desire. Some people enjoy making boats much more than using them, and vice versa.

There is a character in Steinbeck's "Cannery Row" whose entire claim to fame is that his boat is never done. I can't remember his name, and I wish I could quote the passage where he's described, but whenever he even approaches finishing his boat he decides that some major modification is in order. If he ever finished it, you see, then he'd have to go sailing.

Jack

[Wild Wassa]

Speaking for traditional Australian racing dinghies. It's cheaper to buy new than to do a full restoration and upgrade.

I'm not writing about a paint job, I'm writing about a restoration and upgrade. Some times the figure is in excess of 4x the cost of a new dinghy, of the class. 5 micron rules, OK. My Boss knows what it costs.

It takes a lot of time only for a 12 f'ter. Conservation rather than a paint job.

Warren.

[ 12-14-2002, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Bruce Taylor]

In my daily travels at work, I'm always
keeping my eyes peeled and I check the
classified ads all the time but nothing
yet.Yeah, me too. I went to see one this summer...a big plywood dinghy of unknown design, with a pine deck, tall stayed aluminum mast, stainless steel centerboard, at an excellent price -- $175 CAN. If I'd bought it, though, it would have been to scavenge the parts, and I figured the boat deserved better. A guy up the river from me bought it (for $125), and he'll have it back in the water in short order. I'll enjoy watching it sail past my house. No regrets.

[On Vacation]

Garland, check this site out.
http://www.howardclassicboats.com/

[rustnrot]

I am only interested in runabouts. To restore an old runabout to my level of detail it needs..............everything. Therefore, it is cheaper for me to build new.

Just as important is the reaction of the self-appointed Boat Gods. I like to improve things and, while I have restored two runabouts to virtually like the day they left the factory, I felt like I was reporting to work at a bureaucracy while doing it. With a new one I can do anything I want to it without "ruining" it.

Finally, it is quicker to build new. There is no take-apart and Gee-Whiz this and Oh-S**t that. Every day in building a new boat is a step forward, never am I going backwards to get to the point of looking at a pile of kindling and engine parts and wondering anymore what have I gotten myself into.

That said, I have removed myself from the old boat Want Ads. This way someone else can have a go at it.

[Bill Perkins]

Donn I won't build or own that many boats in my life . I wanted the experience of starting from scratch once . Sure enough I found fairing the full length lines very absorbing . Crawled around and looked at them ; lay on my side and looked at them ; stood up and sighted the batten by looking back between my legs ; ect .

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/pa32e6862a52385d5fcbeb7710108d2ed/fcec352d.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p277b32b17704cfe06310510d94214fb7/fcec3521.jpg

[ 12-17-2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]