Gaff Halyards Trouble

[Dave R]

I've been working on the running rigging for my little gaffer and ran into a problem. The peak and throat halyards lead down from aloft to stand up turning blocks mounted at the front of the cabin roof and from there, aft to cam cleats near the aft edge of the cabin roof. The peak halyard comes down on the port side and the throat comes down on the starboard side. (I might decide I need to run them both down the same side to make them easier to work together.)

The problem I have noticed is that due to the rake of the mast and the location of the turning blocks, the halyards come down over the jaws at their narrow part along the gaff. This seems to prevent the gaff from swing from side to side as far as I think it should. Maybe it really shouldn't and I'm worried for nothing.

If it should swing, though, what's the fix? Should I move the turning blocks outboard toward the corners of the cabin roof? What is the normal way to deal with this? I'd appreciate any suggestions. Thanks.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Welcome to the club! I've been having halyard trouble for thirty years now, and I bet the other gaff rig boat owners here will say much the same!

First, this is just me, but I would not be inclined to lead the halyards aft - it adds a lot of friction and the set of the sail depends on getting the throat and peak set up properly - in the course of a passage the peak will gradually settle a bit and require re-setting and this is just about impossible to do from the cockpit.

Owsumdever....back to the question.

The gaff jaws will certainly rotate on the mast, probably such that the gaff lies at almost a right angle to the centreline, and it is perfectly normal to have the hauling parts of the peak and throat halyards lying very close to the gaff when the sail is set. This will do no harm because when the sail is full of wind the gaff will shove the halyard sideways without seeming to notice it.

Big gaffers have double ended halyards with purchases on one end and the classic arrangement is shown on this rather nice website run by a contributor to this forum:

http://www.alberta-ck318.freeserve.co.uk/

It is often considered a good idea to have both hauling parts on the same side because it means you can hoist or drop fast taking both halyards in hand at once - but since you have led them aft there seems to be no need for this.

Many boats, including mine, have the halyards led to the sides of the deck, but you don't need to.

[Dave R]

Thank you for that, Andrew. I think you have eased my mind a bit on that issue. I didn't relish the idea of moving the turning blocks away from the centerline as this would make it even more tricky to get to the foredeck to deal with the jib.

Regarding leading the halyards aft, I considered cleating them off near the base of the mast however my little boat doesn't have much in the way of side decks and going forward quickly isn't very easy or safe.

I am not terribly pleased with having all these lines hanging over the back of the cabin and I have yet to figure out where I should put cleats to hang the coils once the gaff is up.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thanks, Dave. I notice that pointyheaded racing boats with lines led aft just chuck them down into the cabin, but this does not look very pretty to me!

You are probably right about leading them aft if there is not much room to get forward. One definite benefit is that you can play the peak halyard to adjust speed coming into your mooring or anchorage.

[Ian McColgin]

I doubt that even on the calmest of days the hallyard could inhibit the swing of the gaff.

Assuming a smallish boat, say 8' gaff so net your force to 4', and the hallyard is an inch off the mast and you've put a good 200# tension on it (which may be high but at least Wianno peak hallyards get that loaded) you're still contributing under 2# resistance to the gaff's rotation, and I bet that at even a modest heel just the gaff's weight will counter that.

(Oh, way less than that, as I forgot the parallelagram of force. It takes way less than 200# to sweat the line a little, even up near the blocks.)

Definatly have fun shifting the peak trim to correctly power the rig for the wind strength and angle of attack. This is the fun of a 4 sided sail. On a macaroni sail, you've at best got only 6 controls - luff from hallyard/down haul, foot from outhaul, angle from the sheet, twist from the vang, flattening from cheater stays to bend the mast, and the tweeky bit if you use a cunningham. With the gaff, you add head tension from the gaff outhaul (must be preset but changeable for the general conditions) and peak angle and the other controls have a more radical impact anyway.

Something about the shape makes the sail more ductile, so even though few gaff boats find a use for mast bending and vanging, you can readily make big differences in the size and position of the sail's belly. Of the controls, the peak hallyard can be almost as dynamic, almost as subject to fluid tweeking, as the sheet.

A well handled gaff rig is a thing of astonishing sophistication and beauty. I think the finest of gaff sails call forth higher orders of skill in both making and handeling than triangular shapes.

I was crewing for one of the best Wianno skippers a while back and just loved the way he had me play the peak. He'd close his eyes as he directed me to ease or trim till it felt right. Usually it would be another 30 seconds before I precieved the effect, which makes sense as he could only do this when at the tiller.

Don't forget to trim the guilleyburchle.

[ 08-07-2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Ian McColgin ]

[martin schulz]

Right traditionally you will have the throat-halyard on the port-side shrouds and the peak-halyard on the starboard-shrouds.

of course that doesn't make sense on a small boat where you will likely hoist the sails by yourself. So it makes sense to have them on one side.

But I don't understand the problem. I have all halyards leading to belaying-pins sitting in a board fixed to the shrouds. Everything is clear of other ropes and sitting/standing on the roof facing the shrouds is much safer than standing in front of the mast.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid51/p2cd2f3f7c802887bc1e7ed138b5a8440/fca54e57.jpg

[ 08-07-2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: martin schulz ]

[Ian McColgin]

Not all maratime traditions are identical, and things get more complex as you move hallyards out from the masts, but the most generic version of tradition is related to the fact that most people are right handed.

Keeping with the simple - hallyards and lifts and such running down along the mast and no winches:

It's easier to take a good stance and keep an eye on the sail if you work the sails abaft the mast from starboard of the mast and sails forward of the mast from the port.

On a sloop or cutter, main hallyards to starboard and headsail hallyards to port.

Just stand there and all will be revealed. Unless you're left-handed.

[rbgarr]

It sounds like you've got a raked mast with the cabin mounted turning blocks some distance aft of the mast where it passes through the deck. Is that true? If so, what is that distance, because I can see how the halyards might bear on the gaff aft of the jaws in that case. Prehaps you might want to consider screwing blocks on the sides of the mast below the boom instead of the cabin top ones... or do you have boom jaws and mast hoops as well... or are you satisfied that there's no real problem to deal with now? smile.gif

[ 08-07-2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Art Read]

My turning blocks are located even with mast athwartships as it passes through the partners. This creates an akward angle were the halyards will pass over the leading edge of my little "trunk cabin". But the lead, (with my design, anyway) while standing aft of the cabin and hauling on the halyards is fair, and a pair of brass half ovals in way of the halyards where they cross over the front of the cabin once made off on the cleats should keep things from chaffing. This setup avoids having the halyards in way of the boom or gaff as with a cabintop location, and keeps them outboard of the mast further than mast mounted blocks would to help keep from fouling the hoops or gaff jaws. Just a thought...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid73/pa757f4c40ebd767ab30377a504955fd0/fb7450c8.jpg

[ 08-07-2003, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Dave R]

This is all good info. Thank you.

Here's a photo from the end of June showing the peak halyard as it runs aft on the cabin roof.
ca bin roof (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UADHAkgYZsfEK5KcqmOHHBiqHoGW!hhaAOcUxvxKhrSO9tkZM hV1xHeDhK2CCfjuaY2cIKYMTCc4REPO2sghMHv6uNSHzzij1dc 5stWubv1O82bGsRH3z3SCtBkAcLQZ/6-29-03h.jpg)
In the next photo, the peak halyard and its turning block are visible in the background with the throat halyard in the foreground.
ca bin roof other side (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UADKAkcYH8fEK5KcqmOHHIR8xMqkjAWldeLg3*cAerkHHlZcw D*2fQDHHCDu3ptmJ185rN4kGAV6lXWhJSn0yywrYdzNc5PP6NA loPCSi6Y1OFCzuCmLAnSCtxkAcLcZ/6-29-03g.jpg)

Sorry about the links. I couldn't get the pictures to show in the Preview Post window. Oh, and no, the lines visible in the photos are not the actual lines in use. They were just used to figure out lengths.

[ 08-07-2003, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Dave R ]

[Art Read]

Ah, well. A picture IS worth a thousand words. Doesn't look too bad to me. And the only alternative I can see with your arrangement would be to mount turning blocks on the mast itself. Might create other, worse fouling problems there. How far aft of the gooseneck are those blocks of yours anyway? Couple inches? Shouldn't be a problem. You'll probably come up against the shrouds before the halyards start interfering anyway...

[Dave R]

Art, I think you are correct about the boom coming up against the shrouds before the gooseneck would hit the halyards. I thought about putting the blocks on the mast but as you said, I think there would be some other problems created.

I think from what I'm seeing here, I should sail her and see how it goes.

[Art Read]

Sounds like a good idea. There are several fittings I'm holding off on installing 'till I've got my sails in hand and the rig up. Just too hard to "predict" the fairest leads, etc. beforehand. Other things, I've had to go with my gut and hope for the best. Only the first "shakedown sail" will tell. I just noticed what you said about the halyards interfering with the "aft" end of the gaff jaws because of the rake. The geometry there is hard for me to visualise. Do you mean they foul while hoisted? How far aft of the jaw's "tumbler"? Obviously, the further aft they cross the more resistance your halyards will create, but like others have said, I don't think I've EVER seen a gaffer that doesn't have it's halyards riding hard on the sides of the gaff jaws. They may keep it from swinging freely with just the gaff up there, swinging in the breeze, so to speak, but hang a heavy mainsail from it and I suspect it will be a non issue. Just for fun, snug up your halyards good and tight and see how much effort it takes to push 'em one way or the other at about the same location your gaff will ride. I doubt it will take much. Certainly less than your mainsail will provide. Good luck! Nice looking boat, btw! :cool:

[Dave R]

Art, you boat puts mine to shame. Yours is very beautiful. Someday perhaps I can do one half as nice.

Here's a link to a sideview of the entire boat.
wh ole boat (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UADLAkEYdcXEK5KcqmOHHBI9MZejzRgP9tfW3fhSKXB3QzNYw 8O8CZPNZ07EUgpa6ZzxbuWgJHNF16d6!vinPlbxqQNSI7Ou*e6 *ovnxWeV8TJ8PR0enHHSCVBkAcFQZ/6-29-03a.jpg)

Unfortunately, you can't see much of the jaws but the peak halyard comes down along the jaw at the point where it narrows down along the gaff. There is no tumbler but I already have plans to redo the gaff and make the jaws a better shape. Then I'll add a tumbler.

I'm hesitant to add the next photo but I'm in it now so here goes. ma st head ( [url="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UADKAksYO8jEK5KcqmOHHFPxY4ffdLpg18JYqYQiSthEOyZzy dkrHp5FsVa72k!R7q77Ht1n0tdAQZtB4bWxBQvKxhNLuxFno67 jdi3oZb*Oa6lifpVzkHSCYxgAcGMY/6-29-03k.jpg")
Since this photo was taken the eye for the throat halyard has been moved up about 8". You can see how far from the mast the throat halyard is as it starts its descent. As far as fouling, it doesn't really foul so much as it seems to clamp down on the side of the jaws aft ot the mast about 3 or 4 inches.

Art, I would love to see your lovely boat in person one day. I hope you have a good time finishing her up and most of all, sailing her.

Thanks for th tips folks.

[ 08-07-2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Dave R ]

[Donn]

Dave...FYI, you can post long URL's in less space by using the URL button under Instant UBB Code, below the message box. Just click it, copy in the URL and click enter, then name the link, and hit enter again.

si deview (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UADLAkEYdcXEK5KcqmOHHBI9MZejzRgP9tfW3fhSKXB3QzNYw 8O8CZPNZ07EUgpa6ZzxbuWgJHNF16d6!vinPlbxqQNSI7Ou*e6 *ovnxWeV8TJ8PR0enHHSCVBkAcFQZ/6-29-03a.jpg)

Edit: Don't know why that space get's thrown in there. :confused:

[ 08-07-2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]

[Art Read]

Well, you'll never know 'till you go for the first sail, but I'd think it'll probably work just fine. I certainly wouldn't "fix" it 'till I saw how it works underway. Boat's are never really "done" anyway, you know... You'll always be finding something else that needs a little "tweeking". Part of the fun! Have you got the main built yet?

And thanks for the kind words, btw, but don't sell yourself, (or your boat!) short. Very different beasts. But both have their own "charms", no? I bet your smile will be just as big as mine on launching day! ;)

[ 08-07-2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[Dave R]

Thank you Art.

And Donn, I fixed it. Thanks. I got spaces, too.

[NormMessinger]

Well, now, expert that I am....

It seems like it would complicate raising and lowering the mains'l on Prairie Islander if the gaff and throat halyards did not come down on the same side of the mast because I have them turned at the forward edge of the cabin and cleated off on the aft edge. Thus I can hand them from the cockpit and pull both at once. I can't imagine haveing to leave the cockpit to raise the sail nor having to deal with halyards, in PI's case, three feet apart.

Came in late and didn't read all responses carefully so there ya go....

[John B]

Going to your first post Dave. It doesn't look like it's going to be a problem to me. take it for a sail as it is.
The reason that I wouldn't accept halyards out to a rail on the shrouds is that the halyard tension will alter on each tack. also as the wind comes up and there is more sideways tension/bend on the mast, it's actually going to have the effect of loosening the halyard. My lee shrouds develop an amazing amount of slack. Ergo, the halyard placed there will too. Slacking a halyard usually has the effect of powering up a sail( in general I say) which is not what you want as the breeze comes up.

[brian.cunningham]

I'm tempted to switch to a gaff rig, just because off all the :cool: advice I see here!

[rbgarr]

Of course, you could just slap a couple of these on your mast.

Ca-ching!$!

http://www.bristolbronze.com/images/BoatHrdw3.jpg

[John B]

Those are beautiful fittings rbg but I'd be nervous about them mounted like that.There's a lot of leverage there and spruce? not exactly the most holding power for a screw in the world. I'd want a strap or band around the mast that they were on. at least around the front of the mast... perhaps tying the 2 together. Either that or a more developed pad that they were attached to.It would be interesting to see them after a season or 2. I'd expect to see them showing some signs of crushing the timber towards the back and tearing/ tensioning the front screws.
please don't get me wrong....I can see they are beautifully made and conceived and are placed perfectly to forestall the problem this post is about.

[Paul Scheuer]

Is there a pin through the mast ?

[Dave R]

Those are indeed lovely blocks but they'd double the money I have in the boat!

I'm gonna try it as it is and make changes later if I need to. Anyone who would like to watch (and laugh) is welcome to come see the launching fiasco on August 23rd at around 10:30a.m. at the boat ramp on Lake Nokomis in Minneapolis. It would be great to see at least one Wooden Boater there. I know there will also be some other wooden boats in attendance.

I do appreciate all the good advice I've gotten and I thank you gentlemen from the bottom of my heart.

I'll heck in in a little over a week to see if there's any last minute advice. Will be in Alaska next week.

Dave

[rbgarr]

My post was more of a joke than a real suggestion... have to remember to use those graemlins more.

I had a dory once that we named NOKOMIS. Good luck with the launching.

John B- On a gaffer the size and power of WAIONE those fittings and the fastening method would make me nervous, too, but that's a 16 foot catboat with a pretty modest sail area. I've seen fittings quite similar to those on the 25' Wianno gaff-rigged sloops that Ian mentions above, and they don't seem to suffer from failure even after very hard racing.

[ 08-08-2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[John B]

LOL. I'm a New Zealander. we can't keep rigs in boats anyway. :D
FYI Do you know that the boffins took good stainless spreader tip cup fittings of that dam Am Cup boat and replaced them with a fancy alloy version. that's why the rig fell down.!
!!!
!
Hells bells.

[martin schulz]

Well one thing I learned building a new mast and doing all the rigging new is that if possible don't drill, fasten or fix anything on the mast. every hole, esspecially those drilled through will weaken the mast or offer a welcome opening for any water to creep in there.

[rbgarr]

Those waves that the NZ AC boat plunged into before the rig failure were real shudderers, but it was still a shock to see the rig snap. The audio of the crewmember yelling 'F***!" came through loud and clear, echoing what I was thinking half a world away. :eek:

Speaking of avoiding attaching anything to a mast, some old catboats did not even have the boom gooseneck attach to the mast. It was set up on a 'pylon' of its own (like a jib club stanchion) just aft of the mast. Can't remember the official term for the device...spider, perhaps?

[ 08-08-2003, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Henning 4148]

There is some interesting stuff on traditional rigging in "Hand Reef and Steer" by Tom Cunliffe.

All the best, Henning