Louis Vuitton Cup

[Tar Devil]

It's beginning to look like America will be watching the America's Cup from the sideline.

Once upon a time, we used to be pretty good at that stuff!

Later,

Phil

[John B]

One World is faster than Prada. Oracle though. Oh dear.

[Rick Tyler]

One World is faster than Prada, but their afterguard is mentally retarded. Why, oh why, did they go right and leave Prada uncovered?

Maybe Paul Allen ought to hire Dennis Conner as a match-racing consultant.

Sheesh.

- Rick Tyler

[Hans Friedel]

comon! Oracel!

The Italians are clever guys (they whipt us) you cant give them one finger

Hans

[Tar Devil]

Maybe Paul Allen ought to hire Dennis Conner as a match-racing consultant.
I'll just bet those two are best of friends, you reckon? If he hired him, maybe Dennis could find a way to EARN OneWorld a point per round.

Later,

Phil

[John B]

It was a lucky/unlucky wind shift but yes.. I thought that was match racing 101. cover.

[John B]

Oracle. oh dear o dear. I like that boat but the Swiss are looking rather efficient.

[martin schulz]

Yep - the next Cup will be on the Geneve-lake.

...chokolate and swiss cheese instead of champangne and caviar...

[Tar Devil]

Congrats to OneWorld.

Was Alinghi sandbagging yesterday until the final beat? And, is Alinghi faster than the New Zealand boat? I haven't heard much comparison...

Finally, someone please explain that penalty to me so's I can understand it.

Thanks.

Later,

Phil

[James R]

Well, I didn't catch the whole thing but it seems that after gaining an overlap Prada sailed well past the layline taking OneWorld along. When she finally gybed for the mark she was clearly ahead, not because she was faster but because she now had a more favourable angle to the mark.

Ironically, I feel, if Prada had gybed on the layline she would likely have had the inside position at the mark anyway. The advantage just wouldn't have been as great. Dumb move on the part of the Italian afterguard.

[John B]

It's one of those umpire calls you get in any sport. Could have gone either way, going by the commentators.

No racing today. 35 to 45 knots in the gulf.
No weekend away for us either. :eek:

How does Alinghi go against the NZ boat? Now that's the question everyone wants to know.We'll find out next year... feb .

[ 12-12-2002, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Figment]

I dunno how I never noticed this before. Paying attention to different things I guess....

The helms on these AC boats are some kind of a double-wheel apparattus. I always assumed that the inner wheel was stationary, just there as a handhold, etc. but last night I noticed that this is not the case. the helmsman on (i think) OneWorld was fiddling with it on an upwind leg.

What does this inner wheel control?

[James R]

Originally posted by Sailortect:
What does this inner wheel control?The trim tab on the aft edge of the keel.

[John Bell]

The conventional designs (bulb keel on a fin and separate rudder) usually have a trim tab on the after edge of the fin, controlled by the inner wheel.

With the news that came out today, though, who knows what's underneath these boats? If you haven't heard, it's been learned that TNZ has added some type of 'appendages' underneath the hull which is designed to radically increase the sailing length. See this article (http://sport.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml;$sessionid$KFKGKTV4NAQHTQFIQMGCFFOAVCBQ UIV0?xml=/sport/2002/12/16/soyots16.xml&sSheet=/sport/2002/12/16/ixothspt.html) for more information.

I'm looking forward the January 7th unveiling!

[ 12-16-2002, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: John Bell ]

[john welsford]

There are so many New Zealanders on all of the boats and in their design teams that the whole thing is like a family squabble!
But I am taking Huffboat up there in the New Year with the object of spending the day rowing around the Americas Cup Village Basin taking photos, making sketches of interesting things and talking to people. You cant see much from the land, and if you are in a power boat you get let in to have one lap and are then chased out to make room for the next guy, a long skinny lapstrake rowboat gets a quite different reaction. Should be fun.
The rumour that I heard about Team NZ is that one of their boats has a retractable bow rudder which makes it able to turn much more sharply without speed loss.
But you'd never know.
JohnW

Originally posted by Tar Devil:
It's beginning to look like America will be watching the America's Cup from the sideline.

Once upon a time, we used to be pretty good at that stuff!

Later,

Phil

[John B]

It's certainly starting to bustle along now.

[rodcross]

AC boats have had two controls since the later 12's as the rules allowed two things to be adjusted under the waterline. Early on, the second controlled a trim-tab on the aft edge of the keel. Now, until they take the wraps off the undersides of these boats, we won't know for sure. The way these things can do a 360 in their own length, I can only imagine what's under there.

[James R]

Originally posted by rodcross:
Now, until they take the wraps off the undersides of these boats, we won't know for sure. The way these things can do a 360 in their own length, I can only imagine what's under there.They may very well have two rudders, one fore, the other aft. See Dyna Yachts (http://www.dynayacht.com/designs/cbft52/cbtf52_index.htm) for an example. OTOH the very short keels with trim tabs combined with a very efficient rudder could explain much of their manoeuverability. Also, the next time you watch the "dance" before the start pay close attention to the flawless sail-handling. When bearing away they'll let out the main and trim in the genoa; when heading up they'll do the opposite.

[Tar Devil]

So as I understand it, Oracle and OneWorld will do battle again to decide who gets whipped by Alinghi, who will then go on to trounce New Zealand for the Americas Cup.

Have I got it right?

Later,

Phil

[john welsford]

On my wanderings around the bases up there it has been easy to see most of the boats, most of most of the boats if you know what I mean, the keels are all under wraps but the ends of them are out there for all to see. The dispacement is fairly concentrated amidships so they look a little potbellied, deeply veed bow sections, u shaped midships and flat bottomed with raius chine aft. Rudder in the usual place, keel in the middle. Fairly conventional really, no attmepts this time to introduce twin steerable keels as in NZL20 or the first Swiss challenge.
It is not until you start to look really closely that you'll find just how carefully these things are done, I noted winglets on the end of the spreaders on one boat the other day, they look like miniature versions of a late model Airbus wingtip and I assume that they are there to control the vortex off the end of the spreader blade.
The difference between a top boat and a mediocre one here is only a couple of percent.

Team NZ is out there playing head games, they are spreading runours as to what it is that they have under the boat, are practice sailing both boats in weather that has the LV races cancelled, and are needling the opposition with suggestions about the challenger having to use the boat that they qualified in rather than their later boat.
The New York Yacht CLub taught them well. Me, I'd rather they went sailing without all the politics.
JohnW

Originally posted by James R:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rodcross:
Now, until they take the wraps off the undersides of these boats, we won't know for sure. The way these things can do a 360 in their own length, I can only imagine what's under there.They may very well have two rudders, one fore, the other aft. See Dyna Yachts (http://www.dynayacht.com/designs/cbft52/cbtf52_index.htm) for an example. OTOH the very short keels with trim tabs combined with a very efficient rudder could explain much of their manoeuverability. Also, the next time you watch the "dance" before the start pay close attention to the flawless sail-handling. When bearing away they'll let out the main and trim in the genoa; when heading up they'll do the opposite.</font>[/QUOTE]

[John B]

It's the consistency of that 1/2 % that's the thing tho.

We'll see some good racing between One world and Oracle I suspect although Oracle would have to be the favourite out of those 2.
Alinghi look like the Challengers to me unless Oracle can pull something special out of the bag .( please!)

A lot of fuss in the media about the whole wind range issue. I didn't realise it but that range was set by the competitors in the LV. what a joke. One photo I saw shows the Cup boats stooging around waiting to race because there's too much wind. Inshore there's fleets of kids racing their Opti's and bigger centreboard classes. LOL. how embarrassing. What a stuff up.

No wind limits in the actual Americas Cup racing.

[ 12-18-2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[kpenokie]

What about Oracle's new experimental kite. Will a true "kite" spinnaker work? Or is this all a head game to counter appendages etc...

[john welsford]

Originally posted by kpenokie:
What about Oracle's new experimental kite. Will a true "kite" spinnaker work? Or is this all a head game to counter appendages etc...There are rules that preculde flying a spinnaker completely "free" unless gybing ( I gather that there is some exemption for a busted pole) but the thought of a big traction kite up about 500 ft where it is really blowing is an interesting one and one which has intrigued be for a long time. There are kite powered Buggies that race around a course which includes a windward leg, ( both ice and land based) and the kitesurfers go to windward pretty quickly, Sea kayakers use kites downwind and I think that its a field well worth developing.

But inthe this case, I am sure that they were "just flying a kite"

JohnW

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by kpenokie:
[qb] Will a true "kite" spinnaker work? The ram-air foil kites, will work with signage, ... did you catch the Kit-Kat-Kite?.

OneWorld needs more hustle, early. Oracle and OW have been the best pairing to date, with OW winning the first encounter, ... a long time ago, 1 & 5. I hope they make it to this round's, seventh race, I'm going to forget that Alinghi is lurking, for the next few days.

Kiwis, Brothers, is Alinghi lurking? Prada was beaten comfortably, except in the last race. 1.1 knots is not a dignified boat speed for OneWorld, when Prada was doing nine on the same beat. OneWorld was in a hole between the winds and was beaten by 5 kilometers and 36 meters. They stopped the clock. All three Challengers are worthy.

As already mentioned, the AC on Lake Geneva, :D . The concept is elegant.

Warren.

ps, Bring back gasseous burst inflation to kites.

[ 12-19-2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]