Jib Sheets

[Dave R]

Here are some pictures of my jib sheet to clew setup. I'm curious as to what others (particulary the experts ;) ) thinks of it. Keep in mind this is a small, non-racing boat, 16' LOD. I've been using it for three years without any problems but I'm curious as to what others think of it.

First, the clew. I don't know what to call this little piece of line. It has an eye on one end and a large stopper knot or button on the other.
http://hamiltonwoodworks.com/drichards/Misc/sail/tm10.JPG

Next, the jib sheet(s). A single piece of line, middled with an Alpine Butterfly.
http://hamiltonwoodworks.com/drichards/Misc/sail/tm11.JPG

And finally, the two together. The button is passed through the butterfly and back through the eye.
http://hamiltonwoodworks.com/drichards/Misc/sail/tm12.JPG

I've never had it come apart on its own and I like it better than having a shackle of other metal hardware there. I believe my bride prefers it, too, when she decides to sit on the foredeck.

[J. Dillon]

My immediate thought is " Will this arrangement of knots hang up on your fore stay when you tack "? :rolleyes:
JD

[Dave R]

Never has yet, JD. Maybe I'm doing something wrong when I tack but since the forestay is forward of the jib, I don't know how I'd get the jib sheets wrapped over the forestay in the first place. Is this something you could teach me?

Besides, if I had an inner stay, I don't see why this would be any more likely to snag it than other arrangements.

[ 07-08-2005, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Dave R ]

[patito]

Maybe he meant shrouds?

[Meerkat]

Or a staysail stay? ;)

[David W Pratt]

Love it. No metal or hard plastic, and very shippy.

[Meerkat]

http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/david77/1000.jpg
Although not the most noggin-friendly, I like the idea of these blocks: more pulling advantage in a boat without winches, plus the weight holds the foot of the sail down.

[George.]

Originally posted by patito:
Maybe he meant shrouds?Nope. He meant forestay, as opposed to jibstay. You see, he is thinking cutter, and perhaps bowsprit...

[George.]

http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/david77/1000.jpg

Those look like they would be a lot of fun if the jibsheet parted in a squall...

Having once almost been brained by the jib D-ring, I would hate to go forward if that setup ever got unruly...

[Dave R]

There is indeed a bowsprit, George. But it's not a cutter rig.
http://hamiltonwoodworks.com/drichards/Weekender/Weekender/images/jksolo4.jpg

Meer, I think my little boat would become a live aboard for me if my bride ever got beaned with one of those blocks! :D

[ 07-08-2005, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Dave R ]

[Meerkat]

What design is your boat Dave?

Your bride is not apt to get beaned by the blocks if she doesn't hang out on the foredeck which, on your boat, hardly exists in the first place ;)

[PatCassidy]

I have always had a great deal of respect for Murphy's Law when sailing. Your set-up is clever but you could be asking for real trouble in heavy weather, which in your boat's case might be less than 20 knots.

[ 07-08-2005, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: PatCassidy ]

[Dave R]

Meer, it's only a Weekender.
http://hamiltonwoodworks.com/drichards/Weekender/Weekender/images/jksolo1.jpg
When the forehatch is closed and the jib club isn't being used, there's room for her to sit there. Actually, a couple of years ago my brother and my bride sat out there while my father, his friend and I were in the cockpit. :eek: It worked out well enough.

[Figment]

Well, that's not a terribly large sail, so there probably won't ever be a great deal of load on that clew.

I'm not going to come out and say that you'll have a problem with your button-and-eye as rigged, but if you do, you might consider using smaller line, and going with 3-strand instead of double braid. With 3-strand line you can make a proper button knot that will hold more securely.

[Todd Bradshaw]

My first observation is that the lines being used seem awfully heavy for such a small sail, which usually hinders light wind performance if the sail is to be used without a club or boom. If the clew corner is expected to fly free, that's the last place you want to hang a heavy rope (or heavy blocks Meer - which, by the way, still aren't heavy enough to keep the clew down in any kind of good wind, that's the job of jibsheet tension). In my opinion oversized jib sheets also look a bit clunky, if such a thing matters. A fuzzy-finished yacht braid on the 1/4"-5/16" range would be plenty to control the sail and most likely not too hard on the hands.

Is there even enough rigging and routing of the jib sheets on that boat to require that they be seperable from the jib itself? The system just seems to have more pieces, lumps and knots than needed to do the job. On a little jib like that, I'd be tempted to either middle the jib sheet through the clew grommet and seize it there, middle it through the grommet and then open a hole in one leg with a hollow fid and run the other leg through it or middle it and pass the bend through the grommet and the tails of the sheets through the bend. I've used all of these methods on jibs larger than that one without problems and find it hard to believe that the jibsheet routing and rigging on a Weekender is so complex or time consuming that it needs sheets that seperate from the sail and stay rigged. Perhaps preserving the ability to sail with or without the club is the reason for seperating jib sheets. If it's not, I see no reason to add extra pieces to a simple system that works fine.

[Bob Cleek]

There's a much simpler option, employing the same principle. Tie a bowline on the bight in the middle of a piece of line long enough to serve for port and starboard sheets. This will give you a bowline with two loops. Adjust it as you tie so one loop is just big enough to fit through the clew with enough sticking out to slide the other loop through. The other loop should be a little longer. Simple as that. I've used this on my 25' Vertue, which has an inner and outer jib stay, forever. Never had it hang up on the stay. Never had it shake loose, ever. Comes off easily and won't jam. Won't draw blood if it hits you flogging.

[Dave R]

Todd, thank you for the suggestions. I'll give them consideration. FWIW the jib sheet line is only 1/4". As drawn, the boat is intended to have a jib club with the associated single sheet. Initially I didn't make a club and opted for the traditional two jib sheets instead. It gives the crew something to do and I think allows the jib to have a nicer shape.

The reason I didn't permanently attach the sheets to the sail was two-fold. First, I leave the jib sheets in place when trailering the boat. The jib comes off the forestay and gets tucked into either the cabin or fore peak. I just run the jib sheets over a bow cleat and snug them up in their cam cleats near the cockpit coiling down the ends. That makes it a bit quicker to set up.

The other reason for not permanently attaching the line shown in the picture was that I intended to, and have since, added a club for a self-tending jib. The benefit of this became clear once my son was born. Invariably my bride, my infant son and I would be out sailing. He would decide it was time to nurse about the time I was ready to tack. With mom and child sitting in the way, it was difficult for me to get to the jib sheets while maintaining control over the wheel and mainsheet. A self-tending jib made sense then and I still use it some. I like having the option depending on who I have for crew.

Mr. Cleek, I'm afraid I must be too dense to understand how you attach the two loops of the bowline on the bight together through the clew grommet. If both loops must pass through the grommet, I'm afraid I don't have room for them with the existing combination of grommet and line.

Perhaps you could post or e-mail me a photo of the arrangement?

Thanks to everyone else as well for your comments. I appreciate the input.

Dave

[J. Dillon]

On my litle 18 footer I have an arrangement like Todd said. The jib sheet is just sized in the middle. BUT I also have a round thimble sized in just behind it. It's purpose is to receive the end of the wisker pole which is just poked into the round thimble when sailing "wing and wing"

JD

[kc8pql]

Here's a scan from "The Passagemaker's Manual" by Bill Finnis. He apparently used the method on a 36' boat while circumnavigating. He's British though.
http://tinypic.com/6yjqx3.jpg

[htom]

Dave, tie a double alpine butterfly where you now have a single. Pass the middle of one of the loops through the grommet making a eye on the other side, use the other loop as a toggle through that eye, pull the first loop back to snug it up. Would work best if you adjusted the loop sizes so that the going through loop was just long enough, and the toggle loop a bit longer.