Wood bilge care?

[Ronin NW]

I should first introduce myself, being new to this community (though not to WB). After a long long time working out the details, my lady friend and I recently purchased a William Atkin-designed Eric 32 and had her shipped up on a truck from CA to Seattle, and are ecstatic about our future living about Ronin. She's been meticulously maintained, truly the best used wooden boat I've ever seen.

She's mohagony planked over oak frames, with external cast iron as well internal lead pig ballast, and I tell you this because it's pertinent to my need for writing... With the hecticness of rigging and moving aboard and immediate concerns, we're finally along to the 'normal' maintenance issues, including cleaning of the bilge. I lifted up all the soles to clean below and found a bit of water, up to a couple inches between keelson and planking. Though the boat was 'always completely dry' to the previous owner, I chalked this up to a few reasons: rainwater on the transit from CA; my slow sealing of the mast boot, and moister climate than Ronin's former home. Nevertheless, I figured it would dry out, so I started pumping and soaking it up, including under a few of the lead pigs that had to be moved, and directly under the engine (ick!).

It remains to be seen whether she'll remain completely dry, and my understanding is that she needn't, as long as she's in saltwater, and has salt in the bilge. (as an aside, there're no weep-holes through frames, so each section between frames is relatively sealed off at its own bilge.)

The big aesthetic concern (and then some), is that I believe by stirring up the bilge I've freed the long-dormant odors that had lain undisturbed. My beautiful boat smells like rotten eggs (and it's certainly not the head, since it's a new holding tank & we haven't even used it).

BUT, I haven't been able to tease out from anybody the affect of standard bilge cleaners or bleach or vinegar on my oak/mohagany basement, or whether there's something more 'old school' I should use. Or maybe the smell will settle out on its own?

I feel like this is one of those stupid questions I should already know the answer to, but alas, that's hopefully why we've all been here for some reason or other.

I'll be waiting eagerly for any suggestions (with a clothespin on my nose)

[Scott Rosen]

The smell probably won't "settle out on its own." You're going to have to do some work and pay some attention to your bilge for a while.

The smell you describe is most likely caused by dead, rotting marine micro-organisms. Happens all the time to boats with out proper ventilation and a constantly seeping bilge. I'd bet that your stuffing box is giving you a constant drip and needs an adjustment or new packing. To get rid of the odor, you're going to have to get right in there and give the bilge a really good scrubbing. The best thing to use would be a solution of warm water, trisodium phosphate (TSP, available at your local paint store) and Chlorox. That will work on grime, oil and rotten stuff.

Then, you need to address the standing water. While it's normal to have a little water in your bilge, it's not good to let the water stand and leave the bilge unventilated.

First, cut limber holes in your floors. Each section should drain to lowest point in the bilge. That lowest point, the sump, should be the only wet portion of the bilge. Then install an automatic bilge pump at the lowest point, with a float switch. Then find a way to ventilate. You may have to leave the floor boards off, a couple of ports open and run a small electric fan when you are away from the boat.

It's a good idea to add some bilge cleaner when you leave the boat. You could even use a nice smelling dish detergent like Lemon Joy.

Forget the salt. That won't solve any of your problems and may make any electrolysis, like between your iron keel, bronze keel bolts and lead ballast, even worse.

Good luck.

[buhmkin]

Yeah, as above. But when you've got the bilges dry and limber holes cut in, think about a paint program. I like how red led lights up the nooks and crannies, but you could use any bilge paint.
I have the same thing going on, also a mahogany on oak hull (1953 Kettenburg 38). I've been using chandlery bilge cleaner periodically (as in bilge painting has been on the backburner for a while, but I keep it prepped in case the right moment comes). Something citrus based is next,so it smells nice while I'm sanding, at least. Then sand, solvent and paint.

Nice boat, that's a deceptively large 32, the Eric. Ketch? Pretty, and shippy, all 'round. It's got that Archer-inspired sex appeal. Way to go.

[Paul Scheuer]

Any chance that the trip might have opened her up a little ? I still don't have a good feel for how much drying happens during a sustained 55 mph exposure. Not to mention the ride.

[Ronin NW]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Paul, I'm trying not to think about that! ...although it has occurred to me. I would think that a month back in the water would have sealed anything back up (that could be expected to seal up). I haven't seen any obvious dripping from the stuffing box but, last night there was once again a small amount of water in the bilge.

I'm concerned about the limber holes because the lowest point is actually between the keelson and the hull... there's not a flat bottom to the bilge rather a flat bottom with deeper V's at either side. That makes the lowest point seem more structural and very hard to get to.

She is a wonderful, big sexy ketch... and I'm on a mission to keep her as good as I found her!

[ 04-08-2004, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Ronin NW ]

[ahp]

You might look into Borax as an antifungal agent.

[buhmkin]

Yeah retrofitting limber holes is a job and a half. I haven't done it because I can't figure it out. Right angle drill and forstner bit?

Small amounts of mystery moisture in the bilges might be the hull sweating. Scantling for a mahogany hull is about 7/8 of an inch. That's not a lot off insulation. See if there are tracks from water running down the hull into the nooks where ribs meets keelson. (As opposed to if there are no tracks, in which case the water is trickling along where the garboard meets the keel from some point higher up. If so, tweak the ventilation program. After almost two years, we're nearly tweaked enough that there's no condensation, except from the stern because it's tight back there and while a fan is doing the trick for now, final treatment will be red lead, insulate and ceiling back there.

And don't let people with softwood hulls tell you that insulating is evil. It is, up here in the PNW at least, sometimes necessary. (1" blue rigid foam insulation works well and is easily mounted and removed if need be-like to check for persistant condensation). I know another Eric, Starshine, that was dank in the winter and a dutch oven in the summer until the owner insulated under the decks only. That's all it took. Anyway, enjoy. We'll see you out there some time if you're around the Gulf/San Juan islands.

[Scott Rosen]

In my experience, fresh water from rain or "sweating" doesn't cause that strong sulfurous smell. Only salt water does.

Cutting new limber holes can be done with a flat hole bit or a forstner bit. Position the hole so that the lowest point of the hole is just at or above the keel. Then use a chisel to shape the hole as a half circle or oval. In a 30+ foot boat, you should have enough room between floors to work.

Don't be afraid to just dig in and start working.

[ 04-09-2004, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

[Ronin NW]

Turns out, I do have limber holes, though many of them were out of sight due to the lead pigs (which replaced the former interior cement ballast). As I mentioned though, the water level would have to be above the keelson for them to do anything to disperse the water. I haven't seen drip marks, but will have another look

Last night we pulled everything up and did a good scrub down of the entire bilge with warm H2O, bleach, and TSP, then rinsed, and left the soles out overnight to help it air (and left the main hatch open overnight). This morning, the air was thick with the same acrid, putrid, increasingly stomach-heaving smell. Am I looking for mold here? Slime? We're gonna dig and scrub everything until we find it, but it's becoming more trying...

[ 04-09-2004, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Ronin NW ]

[buhmkin]

Acrid and putrid. That's a stink. Is there a head and tank? It's not likely that that would cause such a (by the sounds of it ) nearly visible odor. The only boat smells that make me gag are: the unlikely event of a screenless head intake sucking up a fish which dies unnoticed ('darn the pump on this head is stiff')until the stink starts; and rancid diesel in the sump from a failed fuel line wasn't cleaned up afterwards.

We had the latter in the Kettenburg when we bought her. It's taken some cleaning, but the smell's changed more to fresh diesel.

Let us know when you get it figured out, if the bilges are clean and dry, but the smell persists, the source is bound to be interesting.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Originally posted by Ronin NW:
Turns out, I do have limber holes, though many of them were out of sight due to the lead pigs (which replaced the former interior cement ballast). As I mentioned though, the water level would have to be above the keelson for them to do anything to disperse the water. I haven't seen drip marks, but will have another look

Last night we pulled everything up and did a good scrub down of the entire bilge with warm H2O, bleach, and TSP, then rinsed, and left the soles out overnight to help it air (and left the main hatch open overnight). This morning, the air was thick with the same acrid, putrid, increasingly stomach-heaving smell. Am I looking for mold here? Slime? We're gonna dig and scrub everything until we find it, but it's becoming more trying...AH! The bilgers were cemented and some misguided enthusiast chipped the cement out!

The purpose of the cement was, precisely, to stop the accumulation of stangant bilge water that causes the foul smell! And I would bet that Billy Atkin specified it!

Now, someone has gone to immense trouble to dig it all out, so as to expose the (probably perfectly sound) wood underneath it and in doing so has created a series of stagnant puddles, each one festering away nicely!

To be honest, I recommend that, if possible, you scrub the bilges really well, repeatedly, then haul the boat, get the bilges as dry as possible and put the cement back in. Problem fixed.

However, there are a couple of points to keep in mind.

First, sail her often and determine where the lead pigs of inside ballast should be. This is because you are going to cement them in, if there is enough depth of cement (if not, ignore this, because they will sit on top of the cement flushing)

Second, the directions for cementing the bilge can be found in Claud Worth's "Yacht Cruising".

These are comprehensive, but briefly:

The area under the cement should be given a couple of flowing coats of tar, "as hot as the brushes will stand", then a cement mix made up and shovelled in, having taken care to build cofferdams round each keelbolt head (Worth recommends greased tobacco tins, today any number of plastic pots will do the job!) The holes over the bolts are filled with putty when the cement has set.

Do be sure to have a surveyor certify the condition of the planking, frames, floors, keelson and deadwoods in way of the cement before cementing it over - for when you sell the boat.

Mirelle (age 67) has cement flushing through her bilges which has been chipped out and put back from time to time - no trouble at all and smells fine!

[Hwyl]

I'll go out on a limb and guess that the smell may be coming from the inlet pipes of the head, salt water faucet or whatever. These pipes seem to be the perfect place for the build up of smelly stuff.

Solution 1. Close the seacocks, take off hoses from the head or other inlets and hold the end up high. I'll assume that some of the foul smellies have spilled out. Fill the remaining space with chlorine bleach and wait a few minutes, empty the remaining soup in a bucket and reattach

Solution 2 (much preferable) replace the inlet hoses

I also agree with what Andrew said above as a long term solution, but my bet is that the smell is coming from the hoses.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

It's the same critters in both cases - anerobic sulphur reducing bacteria. They are found in the heads inlet pipe and in stagnant bilge water. Yes they do indeed smell vile - the smell is largely hydrogen sulphide, a byproduct of their metabolism.

Change the heads inlet pipes as Hwyl suggests, and scrub through the bilges again - your last attempt dislodged muck but did not suceed in removing all of it. Stagnant conditions will return unless and until you either reinstate the cement flushing she was built with or bore accurate limbers all the way through - the cement is the easier and the better option.

[Ronin NW]

Okay, we had another go at the bilge last night, and I think it was a step in the right direction. There was a faint linger of the smell this morning, but I can't be sure if it was 'emanating from below,' or just stuck in our clothes or my nose-- a great improvement though, we'll see if that really did the trick.

All this business about replacing the cement is interesting. The prior owner of our boat was encouraged by a surveyor to remove the concrete (this was probably 5-10 years ago, when the boat was about 25 years old), and during my own survey several months ago, the surveyor said it was 'a good thing he removed the cement before it caused problems.' My understanding was that cement can trap water beneath and within it, and that's bad. Since my water seems to be entering at the garboards (no drips), it'd trap all that water within the wood.

Okay, maybe that doesn't seem so bad after all when write it down-- keep the planks perpetually moist, but keep it out of the true interior of the boat. But, what's the official argument against concrete? Does it just have a shorter lifespan? Andrew writes, "Mirelle (age 67) has cement flushing through her bilges which has been chipped out and put back from time to time..." Can I look forward to doing this on a repeating basis?

Again, the boat was dry before it came into Seattle (the seller and surveyor both glowing regarding her dryness), so something is definitely different in this climate or after the truck-ride (and I'm wishing I would've dumped the money in offshore gear and brought her home via Hawaii instead of Sacramento).

[George G]

Dalia´s bilge is filled with cement, which holds the pig iron ballast in place, but I left a trench down the centerline, where you can still see the keel. The floor timbers cross this trench bilge, of course, and have limber holes. The trench is a hand´s breadth wide, to make clearing the limber holes easy. The hull and frames were coated with epoxy before pouring the cement.

I believe that this way any water that manages to infiltrate the cement will keep filtering until it comes out at the trench, from where it flows back to the bilge pump, rather than collect against the wood and rot it, which might happen if the whole bilge were filled with cement.

Plus it is nice to be able to actually see the keel once in a while!

[George G]

Dalia´s bilge is filled with cement, which holds the pig iron ballast in place, but I left a trench down the centerline, where you can still see the keel. The floor timbers cross this trench bilge, of course, and have limber holes. The trench is a hand´s breadth wide, to make clearing the limber holes easy. The hull and frames were coated with epoxy before pouring the cement.

I believe that this way any water that manages to infiltrate the cement will keep filtering until it comes out at the trench, from where it flows back to the bilge pump, rather than collect against the wood and rot it, which might happen if the whole bilge were filled with cement.

Plus it is nice to be able to actually see the keel once in a while!

[RonW]

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Eric.html

Ronin NW - don't know if you are aware that the plans for your boat are once again available. But if I had the boat, I would have to have the plans, they are only $200. and should answer your question concerning the concrete as well as many other things.
Excellent conversation gentlemen.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Just to clarify; the only time the cement flushing has been chipped out (awful job!) is when repairs have been needed - it was not original; as built she had bilges as you have now; these generated a foul stench and the putrid water rotted the heels of the canadian rock elm bent frames. These were replaced and the bilges cemented. I know the shipwright who did the work -he is much respected locally. The section in way of the mast was chipped out (by me, three years ago) to renew the mast step. The timber under the cement was absolutely fine as was the ironwork and as it happened the same shipwright who first cemented the bilge renewed the mast step and re-cemented the bilge in way. No smell, no rot, no trouble of any sort.

[SC-Lion]

Hello Ronin,

A lot of good suggestions above. I know your boat well and I can confirm that she had a bone dry bilge a couple of years ago, so she may have opened up on the road trip? How long has she been back in the water? I also know her sister ship Erica. Erica was built in the same yard in Japan and did not have a cemented bilge. I always thought the cement on Ronin had been added by a previous owner, and then removed by the last owner.

I use diluted Simple Green in my bilge and have had good luck with it.

Congratulations on the purchase. She's a very fine boat!

[Ronin NW]

SC-Lion,

Thanks for your comments. I had feared a lynch mob in SC when I came to take her up north. That's interesting to hear about Erica's bilge, though I don't know the history of Ronin's cement. I've been meaning to look at some full plans. I have Erica's modification plans (same as ronin) which are only interior changes, and don't show many original specs.

She's been in the water almost two months and still seeps a bit, and I know she didn't used to. Two days ago I was exploring the bilge, and found several (and there must be many more) seeping spots: I dry them with a rag and very soon they're moist again; not dripping, but moist. It's causing me to squirm a bit. I've considered re-caulking all along the garboards at next haul (soon), but part of me feels that she was built so tight to begin with, I won't be able to match that now and it may be futile. Maybe a healthy dose of bottom-paint will help.

How much seepage is acceptable in a wooden boat? I've looked at a lot of boats before that had some water in the bilge, so maybe I'm overreacting...

(By the way, we seem to have gotten the smell under control temporarily with the H20/bleach/TSP mixture.)

[Victor]

I've never heard of a wooden boat being as dry as this one used to be.

[SC-Lion]

No lynch mob. We were sad to see her leave, but glad she found a good home. I've never seen another wood hull as dry as Ronin's either, that's a big part of why I remember it so well. It gave me a complex about my bilge, which always has a little water at its lowest point.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Very unusual; we always have a little puddle at the sump point, most of which comes from the stern tube; one stroke of the pump per week clears it.

[Victorious]

Victorious had cement up to the top of the keelson when i dug her up.
There is no evidence to suggest that this had been disturbed from her original build.
The keel, keelson and garboards had suffered no rot or obvious degradation under the concrete.
She is about 100 years old. :D

(Alas the keelson had been cut :eek: to accomodate a large engine flywheeel a long time ago...
As a result....the garboards were such an "interesting" shape that they had to be replaced.
The timber from the old garboards will be reused somewhere in the boat,, still pondering where ;)

[Bob Adams]

I've always consdidered "brushing the bilge monster's teeth" an indication that Spring had actually arrived! :D