INTRODUCING..."Charismatic" (pics)

[True Love]

Dark Harbor 17.5 #5 Bucks Harbor Fleet

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid101/pb05826d59e86ca72a25417b9ba0aa449/f9e15e29.jpg

It's taken me several years to find just the right boat and I want to thank you all for putting up with my questions and for teaching me so much. I really appreciate Ian McColgin and Art Read for all the times they graciously answered my questions about Dark Harbors or S Boats or whatever. You guys are the best. -- TL http://http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid101/p87fc826381d38a957e84632eb3938b6c/f9e15e2e.jpg

[True Love]

Here's another view:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid101/p87fc826381d38a957e84632eb3938b6c/f9e15e2e.jpg

[Venchka]

beauty n, 1. qualities that give pleasure to the senses or exalt the mind. 2. Dark Harbor 17 1/2 "Charismatic".

[ 01-29-2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Donn]

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif

[True Love]

Shot of the cockpit:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid101/pafe9d1e9680b524344bb0e4313c89756/f9e15e27.jpg

[True Love]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid101/pfb86e068b04d2078e233c5461cbaa7aa/f9e15e1f.jpg

[John B]

Fantastic. She looks like a honey What's the rig? any motor? details c'mon details!! :D age, construction......

[Concordia..41]

Does this mean congratulations are in order ?!?

[True Love]

John B -

She's gaff-rigged. There is a possibility that she was once owned by Arno Day. Not sure of her builder or original owner - I have a lot more digging to do on the Bucks Harbor Fleet. If you go to their website (TimH has done a beautiful job of posting some pics of the old Dark Harbor fleet from there) she isn't listed for whatever year it is they've got the fleet posted.

The seller (a wonderful couple in Maine - they have just been so super to work with) had talked to the "owner before last" a woman who had the info on the boat being #5 in the Bucks Harbor fleet.

I want to thank Rich Hilsinger for recommending Ed Davis as a surveyor - hey Ed - thanks again, too! She is in very good shape - another testament to the seller and prior owners. Apparently, a $20,000 refit was done in the late '90's.

The seller, an accomplished sailor, has sailed her w/o any auxillary power. I'm hoping to get her into a particular harbor on Frenchman Bay (I hate to mention it and jinx it) and plan to purchase a 4 or 5 hp outboard so that I don't have too much trouble moving her on and off a mooring in a busy harbor. I've only sailed marconi-rigged boats so this will be a bit of a challenge. I'm excited.

She's also my first wooden boat. Admittedly, I have lusted after one, truth be told, for a long time and I have WoodenBoat Magazine to thank (graciously) for that. All my other boats have been the dreaded "f..glass."

I'm keeping her in Maine and will sail her in the summers. So, Kiwi, I hope you will come for a sail. Cheers! - TL

[Ian McColgin]

Hooray!!!

[True Love]

Yes, Margo, I've finally "taken the plunge" for a wooden boat.

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Wow! What a beauty! Frenchman's bay isn't too far from here. If you ever need crew...

Steven

[Ken Hutchins]

Absolutely beautiful.

[Thad]

I believe she will handle so well you will find the motor too much trouble. Without it you will work on shooting your mooring, lots of fun. Congratulations!

[TomFF]

Beautiful!! Congrats! smile.gif

[wyhjr]

Excuse me, but hanging an outboard on a boat that gorgeous gets mighty close to sacrilege. :D Come to think of it, where would you hang the OB anyway?

[True Love]

I hate the thought of hanging an outboard off the stern, too, and I've shot moorings, just not with this kind of rig -- and only on lakes, not facing tides and not in close quarters. She has an attachment which fits on the stern just for an outboard.

If I didn't have to worry about freaky winds (the harbor entrance has two high islands to either side), tides and the proximity of other beauties I wouldn't sweat it. But I've been a lake sailor and have a learning curve. So... bummer, but I think I'll feel more comfortable w/a small outboard at least at first. I'll be doing a lot of single handing, so hitting the mooring will be a bit more challenging.

Thanks for all the nice comments.

[Noah]

I'm glad that she found a home! I talked to the owners quite a bit this spring about her. It wasn't quite the right boat for me, but I sure did think about it.

I hope you have many a wonderful sail!

Noah

[On Vacation]

Might fine looking rig. smile.gif

[Leon m]

She has lines of the finest kind,what a work
of art!

[MarkC]

Look for the more powerful electric outboard motors - only needs one battery (doesn't need to be a monster battery, you are not motoring far) which can be inside the hull - down low. That will keep the weight off the rear, is powerful enough to push the boat, can take all with you when sailing is finished and keep battery happily charged in garage at home.

[Billy Bones]

Twentyone gun salute to you, TL!

Now if I could just find a woody with a hull like that and a cockpit like a catboat (not a beetle cat) I'd have some financial re-arranging to do. smile.gif

[Alan D. Hyde]

Congratulations, Kathy. She's stunning.

I'm happy to see she's going to a good home.

That she needs more love to live than do her f'glass sisters is not a weakness. It is a strength.

Alan

[nedL]

Beautiful & Congratulations!! :D :D :D
(How about a couple of oars & forgetting the o.b. she's got a real easy hull to move.)

[True Love]

Ned,

Do you think that'd do it in wind and tides?

Steven - would love to have you come sail.

Thanks, Alan. Kind as always.

Billy - with your woodworking talents, you could build such a boat as you desire. No doubt it would be lovely.

[Art Read]

TL! This is GREAT! Can't wait to see the pictures from your "maiden sail" this spring...

As for your outboard question: Go ahead and get one if you think it'll make you more comfortable mooring her. The fact is that a paddle, or sweeps and/or an electric motor might all serve, but an outboard, on a removeable(?) bracket is an awfully convienent and reasuring sight at the nasty end of a long day. Get the smallest one you can find and it'll be plenty for your boat. I went with a Merc 4 hp 'cause it was the lightest I could find with forward/neutral/reverse and it's WAY more engine than my 12 1/2 will ever need. A little 2 hp, (even with no reverse) might have made more sense. I planned on only using the motor for emergencies, distance runs or the like, but the the fact is, though I "can" paddle in and out of the berth the boat lives in now, I CAN'T sail it, and having the engine already there on the transom means I actually untie the lines and GO on days when hauling it up on deck and mounting it seems like too much for a quick hour's "harbor tour". And when I do plan a day of just good sailing, and the conditions permit, it's a simple matter to yank it off the stern, lock it on the dock, paddle out and leave it behind.

Also, as you become more comfortable with your new home waters and more confident in your new boat's, (and your own) capabilities, having the engine back there will be a usefull "security blanket". The hoary old shellbacks here will scream, but the simple fact of knowing that the "kicker" is there waiting, kicking over in neutral, "just in case", will go a long way towards letting you stem the tide, manuever around your neighbors and shoot your mooring under sail those first few times with confidence. Who knows? Perhaps after a season getting to know her, if your moorage really ISN'T that tricky after all, your outboard will be confined to the dingy or maybe even sold to someone without a boat that sails as magnificently as yours does? ;)

(Great name, BTW... Glad I don't have to buy all the bronze letters to spell it out though!)

[ 01-31-2004, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[John B]

I second Art. We shoved our boat around in calms for years with a 2 and then a 3. No g/box though . A new motor will start when you want so a gearbox is just another complication and more weight.you just spin the thing around for a reverse anyway.You'll be lifting it off one handed in a sea way don't forget. Actually, the newer 3 hp mercs have a forward and neutral which is more than all you need IMO. The main thing you need them for is in a dead calm. a lee shore in an onshore ground swell and no wind is a mighty scary thing.
There's nothing wrong with redundancy. Every yachty who's converted to launch I've spoken to, tells me how terrifying the thought of just one form of propulsion is.( they seem to get over it though)

[True Love]

Thanks Art and John B - I had considered the Merc 4hp with the long shaft.

Art - She's named after Charismatic, that wonderful race horse who was such a champion, winning both the Derby and Preakness. He was such a great-hearted horse. And so she carries his name. I think I'm going to have her name painted on.

In the not too distant future, I'd like to have the coamings and trim replaced so that it will be bright. Apparently it is stained and hence the paint. But that won't be done this year.

[LisaS]

TL -

Congratulations! She's lovely... I'll look for her this summer while I'm paddling around up there.

Lisa

[Art Read]

"...I'd like to have the coamings and trim replaced so that it will be bright. Apparently it is stained and hence the paint. But that won't be done this year..."

Kind of wondered about that... Thought maybe it was a trick of the light. Is that blue(?) paint now?

Anyway, by all means, just go saling this year and ENJOY the boat. "Projects" will occur to you, and prioritise themselves, as you get to know her. As for the coamings, etc..., I believe most of the originals in these classes were built with white oak for "trim" pieces like the coamings. I know the plans specify white oak anyway. Easy to bend and durable, but, like you say, hard to keep from staining when finished bright. The old gaffer I grew up with had a two part, oval front, white oak coaming similar to a Catboat. I can't remember her without broad, deep, black stains under the varnish. (One of the reasons I choose mahogany for the brightwork on my boat...) That being said, I can't say it really looked "bad". Unless you got obsessed about a making the wood look "new" when refinishing, it was a pleasing effect. (The oft-mentioned "patina" us wood boat lovers pretend to preserve "on purpose"! ;) )

So, before you go tearing out any original, otherwise sound, wood because of some "objectionable" blemishes, try stripping it good, varnishing it well, "warts and all", and live with for a little while. You can ALWAYS slap some fresh paint on again if it's just "too" bad, and THEN start stashing likely pieces of timber away for the next winter in the boat shop... Just a thought.

[rbgarr]

TL-

I sail a boat (similar to your CHARISMATIC) up to a mooring in the conditions you describe, and have figured a way to do it (even singlehanded) in a crowded harbor. From my experience the added confusion of trying to manage the motor as well as getting on deck to pick up the mooring is only an added difficulty (running from one end of the boat to the other, etc.) You will also find that the boat does not maneuver at all well under power, unfortunately. Once she's moving at speed in a straight line it's fine, but not at slow speeds when trying to turn or reverse and stop under control.

Here's a suggestion for mooring under sail- find a calm lee outside the harbor where you can drop your jib and either take it off the forestay or secure it on deck. Free the mainsail halyards so that when you approach the mooring you can drop the sail as you walk forward to grab the mooring. Here's the most important step: make a practice run at your mooring so that you get a feel for what the tide and wind are doing to the boat as you slow down. Bear away from the mooring before you stop and sail around again through the other moored boats to make a final approach and pickup. After a while this maneuver will become one of the most enjoyable parts of your daysail because you will become more confident of your ability to control the boat in tight situations.

Best of luck to you with your new boat!

P.S. Is the harbor in Frenchman's Bay Sorrento by any chance?

[True Love]

Art -

May just do that (strip down to the wood and finish bright).

rbgarr - Thank you for the tips. Yes, I'm hoping for Sorrento Harbor. I've sent in my money and application and am waiting to hear. I've rented a place in Sorrento for the time I'll be up there this summer. Keeping my fingers crossed. West Cove Boat Yard is going to store her for me and do all of the maintenance -- I want to spend my time sailing, not sanding. I'm in the process of getting her insured then plan to have her moved there ASAP.

[rbgarr]

Sorrento is a wonderful place... kind of like a throwback to the 1920s- and just the right kind of place for your boat, which will be appreciated there. I bet you'd be able to find people who'd love to join you for a sail.

I hope you can get a mooring!

Another suggestion I'd make about mooring under sail is to have a pick up buoy on the mooring eyesplice that has a pick up stick you can reach without having to get down on your knees (your bow deck is narrow). I also leave the dinghy tied on a long painter (15') so that if I stop short of the pickup buoy I can grab the dinghy line and pull up to the eyesplice.

[ 02-02-2004, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[True Love]

rbgarr - do you sail in and around Sorrento?

[rbgarr]

Not now, but I have in the past.

[TimH]

Glad to see somebody from the forum bought that boat! I have been watching her being for sale on the web for about a year now. 20k was beyond my means though :D
She is a beaut!

[True Love]

So Tim,

Cross the continent and come sailing in August.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

A lovely boat TL :D

[TimH]

Originally posted by True Love:
So Tim,

Cross the continent and come sailing in August.Ok...if you insist :D But im not coming back without one of my own..hehe

[TimH]

http://www.whidbeyranch.com/darkharbor/darkharbor.gif

[Dave Hadfield]

Some boats just seem to define Grace in Boat Design....

You'll never regret owning her, that's for sure, no matter what you paid.

As for the motor, is there some way you could rig a mount on the side-deck right beside you at the helm, some drop-in snap-on thing that's right there to hand? I'd think about it.

Having the motor right there would aid manoeverability, even though the thrust is not on centerline, because you could swivel the motor to vector the thrust, and you could do it quickly, without having to get up and run to the transom.

I used this technique on a plastic sloop I used to own where the motor was well offset, and being able to vector the thrust was a real advantage in tight quarters.

I think I'd want at least a neutral gear though. I'd be happy to spin the motor around for reverse, but quick stopping and starting is hard on a motor and having neutral thrust is a useful option.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Dave Hadfield:
...As for the motor, is there some way you could rig a mount on the side-deck right beside you at the helm, some drop-in snap-on thing that's right there to hand? I'd think about it.

That's what I used on my first boat and again on my present boat. Works like a charm to have the motor tiller/throttle in one hand the the boat tiller in the other. Both Bristol Bronze and Spartan Marine make a sturdy bracket that does indeed "drop-in snap-on". When not in use the only thing left on deck is a small bronze plate that the bracket attaches to. And it looks like this:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid103/p305ca928987e79a7064c208cd1fb0762/f9a0170f.jpg

[ 02-14-2004, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Hwyl]

The gaff rig actually makes it easier to get on the mooring. The weight of the gaff makes the sail come down in a hurry, if you need to get all the power off her. You can also "scandalize" which is letting the peak halyard go. I've never had much luck with that (except in a sprit rig, when you pull the sprit out), I just wanted to suggest it because it's such a great word. I agree with the pragmatics on here that an outboard makes sense. I sail in York (maine) and send the Harbor Master into apoplexy when I sail in and out. He always points to the engine on the back and says "why don't you use that" . Dave Corcoran of Bullhouse boats, modifies electric outboards for his Herreshoffs (sticks them through a hole in the hull) talk to him at the Maine Boatbuilders show if you go.

Those of you who want to actually sail in Dark Harbor, should apply for this job http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002163

[ 02-14-2004, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[True Love]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all your input and kudos. I've got a pic I'll post next week that shows the outboard attachment that a prior owner had made for the boat.

[ken mcclure]

smile.gif

Sometimes the smileys here are just not big enough!

Congrats! Nice choice.

[TimH]

I believe that originally the some of the boats came with oars for auxiliary propulsion :D

[Hans Lassen]

Congratulations. Downright beautiful.
I wish we had some boats of that kind over here... Happy sailing!
Hans

[True Love]

Thank you, Hans. You have some mighty fine boats in Germany.

And thanks to you, too, Ken, and all who have been most kind. I look forward to enjoying her for years and years to come.

[ 02-17-2004, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: True Love ]

[TimH]

There is a new one for sale in the new issue of WB that came today...17k....i wonder if anyone finances Dark Harbors...hehe

[True Love]

Go for it, Tim, go for it. You only live once. That's what it finally came down to for me. I kept thinking, "Well, I'll wait 5 years when I'm a bit better off..." and then I realized I could just as easily be dead in 5 years and it was time to just do it. Since I'm not sure God has a Dark Harbor fleet in Heaven, I went for it.

[Bruce Hooke]

Beautiful boat...and beautiful waters to sail her in!

My father has a boat (f'glass I'm afraid) that he keeps just a bit down the coast from Frenchman's Bay. He's in a similar situation in terms of getting to his mooring. In his case it's not so much a crowded harbor as it is a very tight channel between two ledges over which the tide runs hard enough so that you can "read" the water like a river. Needless to say, beating to windward against a hard tide through a channel that is litterly about 25' wide is not really an option. In any case, to get to my point...

He really wanted to switch to an electric motor because he just uses the motor to get in and out of the cove he's in, but the issue becomes how to charge the battery. I ran some numbers on trying to maintain the charge with solar panels and it just wasn't viable. Unloading the battery into a dinghy each time and carrying it up to the house would be a royal pain the posterior. As far as I can tell electric motors are only really viable for boats that are either kept on a trailer or kept in a slip with electricity. I suppose a wind generator might do the trick too but that's a lot of complication for a small boat.

[BRU]

TL CONGRATS ON THE PURCHASE. YOU'LL LOVE HER. THE 17 SAILS LIKE A DREAM. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE GAFF - JUST HOIST THE MAIN WITH THE GAFF LEVEL AND DROP IT WITH THE GAFF ANGLED AS IT IS SAILING. I CAN ELABORATE MORE IF YOU WISH. I'VE SAILED MINE ON THE CHESAPEAKE FOR 7 YEARS. MINE WAS DOCKED SO I NEEDED AN OUTBOARD. I TRIED THE BIG ELECTRICS BUT NOT ENOUGH OMPH. ENDED UP WITH THE BRISTOL BRONZE BRACKET WHICH WORKS GREAT. THE ONLY HARD PART WAS THROUGH BOLTING THE SMALL HOLDING BRACKET DOWN TO THE DECK - WAS A REAL LONG REACH WITH EXTENTIONS, ETC. TO GET TO THE NUTS THROUGH THE SMALL HATCH AT THE REAR OF THE COCKPIT. HAVE A NISSIAN 3.5 HP LONG SHAFT ( YOU'LL NEED A LONG SHAFT) WITH NEUTRAL AND FORWARD AND IT WORKS GREAT. ONLY NEED HALF THROTTLE MOST OF THE TIME. SPIN THE OUTBOARD 180 DEGREES AND USE IT TO BACK INTO MY SLIP!! WORKS A TREAT!! FORGET THE OARS UNLESS IT'S DEAD CALM AND NO TIDE. I'M GOING TO TAKE THE OARLOCKS OFF SOMEDAY IF I DON'T SELL HER FIRST. WITH THE OUTBOARD TILTED UP WHILE YOU ARE SAILING, THE MAINSHEET MAY SNAG THE TOP OF THE OUTBOARD WHEN YOU TACK. I PUT A VERY LIGHT SHOCK CORD FROM THE MAINSHEET WHERE IT CATCHES UP TO THE BOOM AND IT WORKS FINE. I ALSO TRIED TO DO WITHOUT AUX. POWER BECAUSE OF THE LOOKS BUT IT DIDN'T WORK OUT. ONE SAIL AND YOU'LL BE LOOKING FORWARD NOT BACKWARDS ANYWAY. PUT AN EXTRA SPARE MAST HOOP ON THE MAST ALONG WITH THE REST SO IN CASE YOU BREAK ONE YOU WON'T HAVE TO PULL THE MAST TO REPLACE IT. THE EXTRA ONE JUST SITS THERE. MINE HAS A JIB BOOM - NOT THE KIND THAT IS ATTACHED TO THE DECK - JUST LACED ONTO THE SAIL. THE JIBSHEET IS ATTACHED TO THIS BOOM(STICK?) ABOUT 3/4 OF THE WAY AFT - JUST LIKE IN THE PLANS. IT'S A REAL PAIN - FLAILS AROUND WHEN YOU LUFF AND I THINK IS A THREAT TO LIFE AND LIMB FOR ANYONE LIVING ON THE FOREDECK. MAYBE THEY SENT THE HIRED HELP FORWARD 80 YEARS AGO. IF YOURS IS LIKE THIS, I WOULD SUGGEST TALKING TO SOMEONE WHO KNOWS - READ BOAT DESIGNER - ABOUT CHANGING THIS TO A MORE CONVENTIONAL SET UP WITHOUT THE JIBSTICK. WE AMATEURS SHOULD NOT MESS WITH REDESIGNING CROWINSHIELD BOATS BUT A PRO MAY KNOW WHAT TO DO. ALSO, TimH, THAT'S MY BOAT FOR SALE IN THE WB CLASSIFIED. BRUCE PS: WB HAS THE PLANS FOR THE 17 FOR SALE. I MADE A HALF MODEL FROM THEM AND IT LOOKS GREAT IF I MAY SAY SO MYSELF. TRY IT - IT'S NOT HARD AT ALL. BUY A BOOK TO LEARN. USED A VERY THIN PIECE OF MOHOGANY FOR THE WATERLINE AND SUGARPINE FOR THE REST.

[True Love]

Here's a pic of the bracket that a prior owner had designed for the boat:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid104/ped50c0e4aed950a65bde4a99a2f0d7af/f995b65b.jpg

[BRU]

THAT'LL WORK. DOES IT COME OFF EASY OR IS IT PERMANENT?

[True Love]

BRU - it's removable. Why are you selling your boat? (Here's a tip - using all caps on the internet is like yelling.)

Bruce - There is one battery on board for the bilge pump and is recharged by solar panels. I'd still have to add another battery for an electric motor which I don't want to do, plus like BRU says, I don't think they have enough oomph for iffy situations. So I'm resigned to a gas engine.

[BRU]

TL Sorry about that. Hope this is quieter. Live in Western Pa. - sold summer house in Maryland - have boat stored in warehouse at home. May be able to put it on a large lake in NW Pa.

[BRU]

TL BRU & Bruce are one and the same.

[TimH]

BRU: do you take payments? :D

[BRU]

TimH Sure I'll make it easy - just one payment!! By the way, where is Whidbey Island?

[TimH]

Just north of Seattle. She has a custom aluminum trailer? What kind of shape is the hull in? any broken or sistered frames? Sails in good shape? Tell me more :D

[ 02-19-2004, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: TimH ]

[BRU]

The trailer is at tandem Trailex aluminum trailer I had made for her when I bought her in 1998. She was rebuilt in the late 1980's by Seal Cove Boatyard. All frames were sistered, several new planks, new mast step, new decks, new cockpit floor and paneling. She was "Soleil" when I bought her from Metinic Yacht Brokers which is at Seal Cove. Seal Cove also maintained her so they could tell you about the rebuild. The sails are in good condition and I think maybe were new at the time of the rebuild. The only things that need attention are that one plank port side is slightly sprung and the usual yearly varnish and paint. There is also a full boatcover that fits while she is rigged - new in 1998. Seal Cove thought she was built around 1915 by Rice Bros. No proof but they have seen a lot of 17's and thought that it was Rice built instead of Lawley. Also, I have left her in the water year round on the Chesapeake. She is tight and leaks only a little - maybe a gallon a week? I've left her for 2 months and pumped for 2 or 3 minutes. Bruce

[TimH]

which plank is sprung? do you have pictures of this trailer? is this a highway worthy trailer? has there been a recent survey? how many frames are sistered?

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by BRU:
TL BRU & Bruce are one and the same.I think he was directing his comment at me...there's quite a few "Bruces" around here!

[TimH]

Now I am *REALLY* confused! :confused:

[ 02-19-2004, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: TimH ]

[BRU]

TimH, Sorry about the confusion. My name is Bruce Beglin. My displayed name is BRU. I'm the guy from Pa. that owns the DH17 that's for sale.

[True Love]

Well, to really confuse things, I'm not a he, I'm a she. And you're right, Bruce Hooke. :cool:

[BRU]

TimH, To answer your questions. The sprung plank is port topside about the 3rd or 4th plank down from the sheer and about 4 feet forward of the transom. All the frames were sistered as it was an extensive rebuild. The trailer is quite roadworthy - pulled the boat 400 miles from Maryland to w. pa. last fall. It has surge brakes and is only 6 years old. Look up Trailex.com to see who made it. The boat weighs just under 3000# and the trailer is about 500# I would guess and yes I'm sure it would make it cross country. No I have never had it surveyed. You sound like you're interested in buying it. My phone number is in the WB classified - maybe you better call me - this forum is not supposed to be for selling stuff.

[TimH]

I will give you a call next week. I work the weekend shift over on the mainland so I am gone pretty much the entire weekend. smile.gif