A sudden increase in bilge water

[Stan C]

My father and I took his boat out monday and when we got to the gas dock (about 2 miles away from the slip) the outlet streams from the automatic bilge pump(s?) soaked the dock for about 5 minutes. Now this probably dosen't seem odd to anyone considering the boat ( a 1959 25' Trojan cabin cruiser ) but it suprised us because in the year that he has had the boat there's never been more than the occasional 4 or 5 second stream every 20 minutes or so. Of course we hadn't been checking while the boat was moving in the past, we would just hear the discharge once in a while when anchored. This was completely different, not only the length of time it lasted but the force of the stream from the larger of the two outlets was quite loud so we new that it was unusual. I observed the same thing at a few different times while we were cruising afterwards and when we docked there it was again.

He said that all switches were off the first time we noticed it but I did notice that one switch would produce a stream while we were moving ( the other stream continued regardless of whether the other switch was on or off). The boat is always on shorepower when docked but he never uses the switches, always trusting in the automatic system which has always produced the regular very short duration discharges.

Neither of us has seen the bilges or knows any details of the function of an automatic system that routinely pumps some water out even when the console switches are all off, only that it has worked in the past.

He lives 3 miles from the marina but is pretty old to be trying to get down in the bilge, and dosen't want to haul it out just to have it checked. I am an hour away with no car and am concerned that his boat could sink at the dock. He was tired and had to give me a ride yesterday so all I could do was have a real quick look directly under the motor and it was dry there. The sink drains to a fitting that is under the bow wave but above the stationary waterline and there was no sign of wetness at the through hull there. We don't know of any through hulls in the bilges, there is a fishfinder but it came with the boat and I don't know how it is set up.

Should we be very concerned at the apparent sudden increase in bilgewater that we only have seen as it is pumped out? He seems to not want to start taking things apart to look around below, but he did say something about marking the waterline and checking it daily which I hope he is going to follow up on. I think that all he really knows about the history of the boat is that the previous owner did some remodeling and painting before it was sold, the door was removed to open up the interior for example.

Can anyone comment on this? Is there cause for immediate alarm? I really don't want to see my father lose his investment. Even though he got a good buy I really doubt he will want to deal with the expense of trying to recover from a sinking, he was hoping to get his money back when he moves to Idaho later this year.

We haven't seen this boat out of the water.

Maybe one of the intakes was clogged and that water had been in there all along? That would be bad, it's fresh water in the delta near Brentwood, CA. They say brackish but I've always thought it was just muddy.

Any advice?

SC

[ 07-18-2005, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[Dan McCosh]

While it's impossible to tell definitively, it sounds as if the initial problem is something like the drain holes in the bilge are c logged. This would dam up the bilge water until it spilled over the top of the keel floors while the boat is at rest. When underway, the change in angle would release a large volume to the pumps, hence the volume noticed when you dock. The two pumps are likely in the bow and stern--common in power boats so that one is at the low point in the hull. The larger problem is knowing where and why the water is coming in. It could be normal seepage, or as serious as a plank working loose. It is essential to pull up the floor boards and check it out. It would also be worthwhile to check out the pumps, understand how a float switch works, how they are wired, etc.--it'sa pretty critical part of maintenance.

[Ken Hutchins]

Should we be very concerned at the apparent sudden increase in bilgewater Duh!, well ya when are you going to get concerned, about the time the last of the boat goes below the surface?

[Stan C]

Originally posted by Ken Hutchins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Should we be very concerned at the apparent sudden increase in bilgewater Duh!, well ya when are you going to get concerned, about the time the last of the boat goes below the surface?</font>[/QUOTE]If it was my boat things would be different but I don't think that my father will worry til the pumps run constantly, maybe not til he's losing altitude even, and I'm looking for advice to give him.

SC

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Apologies in advance for a statement of the blitheringly obvious, but he has screwed up the sterntube greaser, hasn't he? Failure to do that after each cruise, combined with Dan McCosh's hypothesis, can produce these symptoms in an otherwise healthy boat!

Less optimistic thought is that she has shaken a seam, probably in way of the stern gear.

[Gary E]

A lot of yada yada bla bla then this...
Neither of us has seen the bilges or knows any details of the function of an automatic system that routinely pumps some water out even when the console switches are all off, only that it has worked in the past.
WELL... when in the hell ARE you gona go look? after the boat has sunk???

As far as you calling this boat an investment?.. it's no more an investment than any other toy that falls apart while you look at it, FIX THE TOY before it's junk.

[Stan C]

Originally posted by Dan McCosh:
While it's impossible to tell definitively, it sounds as if the initial problem is something like the drain holes in the bilge are c logged. This would dam up the bilge water until it spilled over the top of the keel floors while the boat is at rest. When underway, the change in angle would release a large volume to the pumps, hence the volume noticed when you dock. The two pumps are likely in the bow and stern--common in power boats so that one is at the low point in the hull. The larger problem is knowing where and why the water is coming in. It could be normal seepage, or as serious as a plank working loose. It is essential to pull up the floor boards and check it out. It would also be worthwhile to check out the pumps, understand how a float switch works, how they are wired, etc.--it'sa pretty critical part of maintenance.I think it is what you said, Dan, that the water is splashing over the floors.

As far as how it's getting in, I was wondering about the stuffing box and hoping that it's not a plank because that is probably a greater expense than the owner would consider, since more planks would likely follow. Luckily he hasn't any plans to venture far from land. Since its not salt water and the boat is old I'm concerned about the possibility of rot in the bilges. There definetly hasen't been any grounding or collision, and just the day before it seemed fine. Maybe this weekend I'll get back there, hope she still floats.

I'm hoping that he'll keep a daily watch as it sits and when I can get back I'll insist on spending some time looking in the bilges but I have no experience with this sort of thing and also don't know what the access will be like.

I think it's going to be difficult trying to get permission to pull everything up just to look, especially when I'm not sure that I will be able to recognize the problem. Here's where all of the reading I've done for 3 years is going to get tested for the 1st time. I plan to move across country to attend boatbuilding school beginning Aug. 30, for at least a year, but right now I have no practical experience and he won't spend til he sees that he has to, then he won't spend a lot. I think he was planning to ask about $4500 for her in a couple of months, before this came up. I guess we'll figure it out soon anyway.

Thanks for the advice.

SC

[Gary E]

I think it's going to be difficult trying to get permission to pull everything up just to look If you really believe that, then walk, no run away from this idea of boats and any schooling in the boating area...this is hopeless.

[Stan C]

Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:
Apologies in advance for a statement of the blitheringly obvious, but he has screwed up the sterntube greaser, hasn't he? Failure to do that after each cruise, combined with Dan McCosh's hypothesis, can produce these symptoms in an otherwise healthy boat!

Less optimistic thought is that she has shaken a seam, probably in way of the stern gear.Uh, no. What's that? Not so obvious to us beginners, so no apology necessary. That's why I'm bothering you guys with this. Does it add grease to the stuffing box? I'm just guessing about the box, and I don't even know what the alternative would be. ( A cutless bearing? I just read about this stuff.) This boat has a V-8 engine , and that's about what I know about it's propulsion.

A typical "cruise" is about 2 miles, 1 mi. each way to the fishing hole. Yesterday was a long one, maybe 6-7 miles total.

Does this really need to be done every time out? I think it never has been. Not sure, I'm not always on board.

I think there was some work done on the transmission last summer, probably nothing in the engine compartment since then.

When I think he's awake I'll call and see if he knows about the sterntube greaser.

Thanks for a clue.

SC

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Yes, the old style stern bearings, which I guess this boat is most likely to have, require grease to be added (by a turn on the greaser screw - you will be able to find this - it may well be remote from the bearing) after each trip, to eliminate the otherwise persistent drip through the stuffing gland caused by the shaft rotating in use, and the greaser should also be given a turn every hour or so when running.

(Don't worry - I did not learn that for quite some time, either!) ;)

[Stan C]

Originally posted by Gary E:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I think it's going to be difficult trying to get permission to pull everything up just to look If you really believe that, then walk, no run away from this idea of boats and any schooling in the boating area...this is hopeless.</font>[/QUOTE]If you were paying attention then you know:

1. It's not my boat, But I'm trying to keep my father from losing the thousands he spent last year on his toy.

2. He's getting a little old to be crawling in the bilges, and never having owned a big boat before.
(An 18' Bayliner didn't prepare him for this, ok?)

3. While I admit that I have no experience I've been reading about boats for years and am learning as the opportunities arise and expect to spend at least a year in school before I'm ready to look for employment working on boats.

4. My father is trusting the pump a lot more than I think he should.

5. I live an hour away from the boat and have no car.

6. It's still not my boat.

But you already know all of that, if you paid attention.

So how does my ability to convince my elderly retired father that he should let me start pullin things up in his boat have anything to do with whether I've got a chance of learning anything in a boatbuilding program that I've been trying to prepare myself for for about 3 years, totally on my own, not even knowing anyone who's ever worked on a boat?

Gary E., I think you're way outta line with that comment and maybe if I hadn't been up all night I mighta just ignored it, but as it is I've got nuthin nice to say, or think, to or about you- whoever you are.

I'm just here to learn.

SC

[Stan C]

Originally posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett:

Less optimistic thought is that she has shaken a seam, probably in way of the stern gear.You mean because of the lack of attention?

[Gary E]

Originally posted by Stan C:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gary E:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I think it's going to be difficult trying to get permission to pull everything up just to look If you really believe that, then walk, no run away from this idea of boats and any schooling in the boating area...this is hopeless.</font>[/QUOTE]If you were paying attention then you know:

1. It's not my boat, But I'm trying to keep my father from losing the thousands he spent last year on his toy.

2. He's getting a little old to be crawling in the bilges, and never having owned a big boat before.
(An 18' Bayliner didn't prepare him for this, ok?)

3. While I admit that I have no experience I've been reading about boats for years and am learning as the opportunities arise and expect to spend at least a year in school before I'm ready to look for employment working on boats.

4. My father is trusting the pump a lot more than I think he should.

5. I live an hour away from the boat and have no car.

6. It's still not my boat.

But you already know all of that, if you paid attention.

So how does my ability to convince my elderly retired father that he should let me start pullin things up in his boat have anything to do with whether I've got a chance of learning anything in a boatbuilding program that I've been trying to prepare myself for for about 3 years, totally on my own, not even knowing anyone who's ever worked on a boat?

Gary E., I think you're way outta line with that comment and maybe if I hadn't been up all night I mighta just ignored it, but as it is I've got nuthin nice to say, or think, to or about you- whoever you are.

I'm just here to learn.

SC</font>[/QUOTE]If you need permission from your Dad to LOOK in the bilge, you are to tied up with apron strings. and if you actually cared you'd WALK to the boat to fix it.

[ 07-12-2005, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Another suggestion:
A split in an engine cooling water hose can put a large amount of water into the bilge in a surprisingly short time.

Do you close the seacocks when the boat is docked?

[colin_p]

Someone - who ? you decide that, I live several thousand miles away - needs to get off their ass and check-out the bilge area whilst the boat is in the water (and still afloat - 'cause it might not be for very much longer), and see where the leak is coming from. It might be a leaking stern gland, it might be from a leak in the hull plating/ planking, or it could be any of the through-hulls is letting-by (and about to fail).
I'm not sure how to say this next bit without sounding alarmist, but in the case of through-hulls this leak could be the first sign of imminent and catastrophic failure. Next time you take the boat out just might be your last.
Maintenance is a key part of safe boating - if you don't know about boat maintenance right now - that's ok - we all had to start somewhere. But I would suggest that you - or whoever is going to accept some responsibility for this situation - get a book, ask others, whatever it takes - but learn quickly.

The idea of taking a leaky boat out makes about as much sense as crossing the road with your eyes shut, or driving a vehicle with no brakes.

Colin

[mmd]

Gary E, with the greatest of respect for your experience and participation here, please consider softening your tone a bit. It really isn't helpful to Stan C if you berate and belittle him for his inexperience. A patient explanation and hand up is much more effective than drill-sargeant hystrionics.

Thanks.

[Gary E]

Soften my tone?... BS...
Anyone who KNOWS the boat is leaking, and badly, and has to ask permission to LOOK at where the dam leak MIGHT BE... and has no guts to do it, deserves what he gits...

Dont sit around with your finger up your but..
DO SOMETHING...

...LOOK AT IT YOURSELF
...Call someone who will
...Tell the marina to pull it out of the water
...or prepare to pay the marina a lot of $$ to salvage it from the deep...

[Hughman]

If the boat is still afloat, I'd say it's time to use the "Mark I Eyeball" to find out some answers.

Do not operate this boat without understanding what is causing the water in the boat. It wouldn't be nice to make the old guy swim.

Gary might be getting a little personal, but I think he might equate this to a house being on fire - i.e. life threatening, and so it could be.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Panic is to be deprecated.

Conduct a reasonable, thorough, investigation of the boat where she sits. Call up your local U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary or U.S.P.S. (United States Power Squadrons) Chapter, and they'll likely provide you will a knowledgable volunteer to go over the vessel with you--- I'd promise to make them a donation you can afford (in dollars, or perhaps you have some skill or ability you can donate to the Chapter as a swap).

Rent-a-dent for $25 or whatever to get there. A good seaman and a good boatbuilder (both of which I take it you'd like to become) have some characteristics in common--- resourcefulness and persistence are among them...

Best,

Alan

[ 07-12-2005, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[mmd]

I don't know, Hughman; politeness never aggravated a situation that I know of. Let's use your simile for an example: You are standing in the doorway of your house, unaware that flames are erupting from an upstairs window.

I yell from the street, "Hey, Hughman! Did you know your house is on fire? You'd better call 9-1-1 right away - it looks pretty dangerous!"

Gary E comes along and yells to you, "Hey, Hughman! What kind of idiot are you? Don't you know your house is on fire? Only gutless brain-dead a-holes stay in burning houses! Are you too stupid to call 9-1-1? It's fools like you who burn in fires like this because you're too stunned to know you are in danger! You deserve to die!"

Same basic message, but is the acrimony really necessary to tramsmit the bones of the message?

[Hughman]

Michael, I agree, (even though, in passing, you seem to be indulging in a little paralipsic insult yourself). I actually wrote my post before I read Gary's last post, so it might look like I condoned his approach.

Perhaps the "it's not my boat" in Stan C's remarks has added focus to some of us that have dealt with marine emergencies somewhat....

[ 07-12-2005, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Hughman ]

[Gary E]

Originally posted by mmd:
I yell from the street, "Hey, Hughman! Did you know your house is on fire? You'd better call 9-1-1 right away - it looks pretty dangerous!"If you had common sense, YOU would have allready called 911, then gone over to help...or would you ask permission?

[Bob Adams]

Originally posted by Gary E:
Soften my tone?... BS...
Anyone who KNOWS the boat is leaking, and badly, and has to ask permission to LOOK at where the dam leak MIGHT BE... and has no guts to do it, deserves what he gits...
Dont sit around with your finger up your but..
DO SOMETHING...

...LOOK AT IT YOURSELF
...Call someone who will

Tell the marina to pull it out of the water
...or prepare to pay the marina a lot of $$ to salvage it from the deep...OK, somethings are obvious, but keep in mind, EVERYONE was a newbie once.

[ 07-12-2005, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Bob Adams ]

[Canoeyawl]

This is a common ailment of wooden powerboats in the Delta. It is probably just the topside planking drying out and opening up a bit while sitting in the Marina and when underway it will leak as the bow wave rises up ...(It has been hot up there lately) A simple test is to run it at the dock in gear and monitor the leak, this should tell you if you have a stuffing box problem or not. Then operate it at different boat speeds while monitoring. Can you open the engine hatch while under way? Again, this is a common Delta ailment – relax, your in the Delta LOL!

[Gary E]

Can you open the engine hatch while under way? You have missed the point...
THIS GUY NEEDS PERMISSION TO LOOK !!!!

[Canoeyawl]

Originally posted by Gary E:
[QB][QUOTE] Can you open the engine hatch while under way? Not, - May you open the hatch while under way? Sheese...

[Gary E]

Originally posted by Canoeyawl:
This is a common ailment of wooden powerboats in the Delta. It is probably just the topside planking drying out and opening up a bit while sitting in the Marina and when underway it will leak as the bow wave rises up ...(It has been hot up there lately) A simple test is to run it at the dock in gear and monitor the leak, this should tell you if you have a stuffing box problem or not. Then operate it at different boat speeds while monitoring. Can you open the engine hatch while under way? Again, this is a common Delta ailment – relax, your in the Delta LOL!Yo Canoe guy....

IT's a QUOTE FROM YOU !!!!!!!!

[Canoeyawl]

Gary, The question is simple, Can you open the hatch while under way? Not - May you open the hatch...?

What does this have to do with you anyway? You can't answer the question.
I must have fallen into the bilge...

[Gary E]

Originally posted by Canoeyawl:
Gary, The question is simple, Can you open the hatch while under way? Not - May you open the hatch...?

What does this have to do with you anyway? You can't answer the question.
I must have fallen into the bilge...It was WHAT YOU SAID..... if the speeelin or the punctuation or any oder thin wuz wrong....
YOU SAID it... I quoted YOU...

[Ross M]

Can the hatch be opened while underway? ;)

[Canoeyawl]

Sorry Gary, I had no intention of confusing you. The question was rhetorical.
If I may rephrase; Can the hatch be opened while under way?

[Gary E]

Originally posted by Canoeyawl:
Sorry Gary, I had no intention of confusing you. The question was rhetorical.
If I may rephrase; Can the hatch be opened while under way?Your not confusin anyone... better ask Stan C, he is the one that NEEDS PERMISSION FROM HIS DAD to LOOK!!!!!!!

[ 07-12-2005, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[phiil]

Ring, ring...
Hello, Dad? It's Stan. I've been thinking about the high pump cycling on your boat. I queried all the good folks who populate the Wooden Boat Forum, and they gave me a lot of good ideas. Can you pick me up in about an hour? We can talk about it on the drive over, then there are a few things I think we should check out.

Opinions varied, (a lot!) but the common thread was that we need, really need, to look around and see where all that water is coming from. Yeah, Dad, from the ocean. I know that. I mean, where is it entering the hull? The point is; it could be leaking through the stuffing box, a sprung plank, or a leaking raw water hose, or a lot of other places.

Yes, I know Mom will get all upset if you come home with sore knees or a bumped head. I'll do all the work. We'll just have to look in the engine compartment, lift up a few floorboards, run the pumps and see if we can find the origin of all that excess H2O.

With any luck at all, it will be something as simple as a loose clamp. I'll bring a few tools and a flashlight. Yep, an ounce of prevention and all that. Either way, this will be a lot easier than trying to explain to Mom why we came home with our clothes soaked and a $900 towing bill.

OK, Dad, I'll see you in about an hour, then. Bye.

[Bruce Hooke]

Stan,

Others can give you better advice on where specifically to look for leaks. What I wanted to recommend is that you and your father go over the boat from one end to the other and try to make sure you understand what everything does. You should know where every thru-hull is located and every thru-hull should be checked to make sure that it is not frozen in the open position. You should also know what each switch does. For example, you mentioned that one switch was off -- it is possible that this was part of the problem, but it is hard to know without knowing what each switch does.

Looking in the bilge should be simply a matter of lifting up various access panels, however, I do not know the specifics of how this boat is laid out in that regard. Before you even leave the dock it is always a good idea to check the bilge for water and check the pumps to make sure they are running. It is also a VERY good idea to stick your nose in the bilge and check for any undesirable fumes (e.g. gasoline fumes) as soon as you step on board and before you start anything up.

You and your father would, I think, also benefit greatly from taking a course from someone like the local Power Squadron or Coast Guard Auxilliary.

I would also highly recommend the book The Elements of Seamanship. I goes over a lot of the basics of proper seamanship, down to details like what to check before you leave the dock.

It may well be that the leak is nothing serious -- just clogged limbers or something similar, BUT before I went further from shore than I could swim I would sure want to know what was going on!

[seafox]

to hijack this thread...LOL

dealing with fathers, elderly.
the mannor with which one deals with your own father may or may not have any relationship to how one will deal with customers who can take or leave your advice with out worrying about your future business relationship. you don't want to hurt your father or make him feel like an idiot yet, several here are trying to encourage Stan C to act and since we can not physically puck him butit more like pushing on a spring some of the force will get there but a lot gets asorbed in traveling maybe we push a little extra hard.

the apeal to authority, noting all the advice from the forum is good. another idea is their a yard mechanic? tell you dad that you asked him about the sitiuation adn he "INSISTED " in an inspection right away

and tell you day that as your going away to school soon and he is moving to idaho ( what part btw) that you really value a extra afternoon spent with him

I will testifie that I regret a lot of afternoons I didn't spend with me father

[ssor]

Stan,
Have you been able to observe any rats leaving the bilge and diving overboard? ;)
Someting like "Dad should my feet be wet when I am standing at the wheel and the sun is shinning?" might be timely. We don't know your dad's age, but he can sustain a two hour road trip for taking you to and from the boat. Is there a chance that you under estimate his ability? Several of the members of this forum have been around since before world war II and we try not to think of ourselves as decrepit. Asking your dad to teach you about the parts of the boat that you can't see while standing on deck might be better than suggesting that he doesn't know what's going on in the bilge.
Ross in Bel Air

[ 07-12-2005, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: ssor ]

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

As you can see Stan, occasionally water from the bilge overflows into other portions of the ship.

You can figure out the good advice from the bad. Boats that sit alot usually ship a little water when you use them, the stern tube tighten is a good idea, a thru hull or hose could be leaking. Check the boat over when it's running, you should be able to see a stream of water coming in from somewhere if it's working the pumps fairly often. ;)

[Hwyl]

Sometimes trolls emerge from the bilge. This has to be one of them.

[seafox]

to hijack this thread...LOL

dealing with fathers, elderly.
the mannor with which one deals with your own father may or may not have any relationship to how one will deal with customers who can take or leave your advice with out worrying about your future business relationship. you don't want to hurt your father or make him feel like an idiot yet, several here are trying to encourage Stan C to act and since we can not physically puck him butit more like pushing on a spring some of the force will get there but a lot gets asorbed in traveling maybe we push a little extra hard.

the apeal to authority, noting all the advice from the forum is good. another idea is their a yard mechanic? tell you dad that you asked him about the sitiuation adn he "INSISTED " in an inspection right away

and tell you day that as your going away to school soon and he is moving to idaho ( what part btw) that you really value a extra afternoon spent with him

I will testifie that I regret a lot of afternoons I didn't spend with me father

[Stargazer14]

If I may jump in here and get back to the crazy notion
of actually throwing in an idea of what might be wrong with the boat...

I have an older Trojan of about the same size, tho it is just a few years younger, and I have plenty of access to the bilge the entire length of the boat, just a matter of pulling up a hatch or three.
My thought on what might be happening from your intial description is that water is getting in during running of the boat, since the bilge pumping wasnt noticed until after the boat had run 2 miles. So I would be inclined to check the hoses and clamps running from the engine to the exhaust first for leaks as perhaps the engine is pumping cooling water into the boat and not out the exhaust, verses your general hull leak(which is still very possible, tho my boat has a plywood hull and a loose 'plank' is easy to spot). If the boat has a V-drive as mine does, you will want to check those hoses also, as the drive is also fresh-water cooled. All this can be done with the boat in the water(ask an experienced person at the marina to take a look) and if there is a dry bilge with the boat at rest, this is where I would put my first efforts of investigation.
Of course if the boat is leaking while in the slip, you have a lot more probable causes.

Whatever you do, have Pop gain a little working knowledge of the boat for his own safety when out on the water. Those older Trojans arent that complicated.

Best of luck, Michael

http://www.dplus.net/stargazer/engine_trojan.jpg

[Stan C]

So I was otherwise occupied for a week and the responses were up to a total of 39! It's great that so many people want to help.

Then there's still that one guy. The one who said "soften my tone?, B.S." Well I've got an abbreviation for him too- A.H. !

Those of you who recognise my name from other threads may have noticed that I seem to have the ability to get things stirred up. It's just that I'm trying to make up for lost time and other than on this forum I really have no one to ask even the simplest of questions about anything related to boats. That will change drastically on Aug. 30 when I start classes but for right now that's just the way it is.

To update everyone- the boat still floats and the motor has not been started since my origonal posting. He ( my father ) says that the stern gland area is bone dry and while switching the pump on produces a small amount of water from the outlet it's not much and it dosen't seem to be enough to trigger the float switch. He's been there every day and has never seen any evidence of automatic operation. So it seems probable that the problem arises during use and not when at rest. I did look under the engine when we last pulled into the slip and it was dry then.

Oh and yes the engine cover hatch can be lifted during operation and I blame myself for not looking there when I had the chance. At the time I was occupied with checking out the gurgling noise from the sink drain (which was because the bow wave rushes over the outlet.)
The through hull there wasn't leaking.

The thing is that the hull appears to be much deeper forward and that is the part that is more difficult to see into.

It's easy for anyone including me to say now that I should've just gone forward and lifted cushions, panels, floorboards, etc. til I found the problem. The thing is that my father is an impatient sort of guy and he is always tired when we dock the boat, and it was going to be dark in half an hour anyway and I would have annoyed him if I didn't just zip her up and head for the car like he wanted. I really didn't think that it was going to be a serious problem as long as the boat remained tied to the dock, I just had that feeling, and now I am pretty sure that I was right that it is when the boat is used that the water comes in.

As far as my telling him how to take care of his boat, From his point of view ( and he is technically correct ) I'm only able to tell him what I've read about, and he is the one who built several houses when he was younger while I've never been employed to construct anything (yet). To put it simply, I'd insult him if I insisted. The boat never goes more than 100 yards from land, by the way- though I wouldn't want to spend the night on a tule island.

As far as the suggestion that I'd walk out there if I cared, well it's about 50 miles through some pretty inhospitable country- freeway then dry hills then farmlands, just to get to where I could ask for his key to get onto the dock. And then he'd probably say "I'll wait and ask so and so about it in a couple of days".

As far as the marina there is no facility there to haul out nor do they have a mechanic.

I should have mentioned right off that the hull is plywood, does the heat still dry it out to open seams in this case? The topsides paint is recent and looks good, and the slip is in the shade (covered).

I mentioned the possibilities that have been presented here, tried to explain what I've read about stuffing boxes, and generally tried to help him along on the phone a few minutes ago, but I could tell that while he is glad for info, he dosen't want me to take too much of an interest in his problem.

I'm hoping that he dosen't ignore what I relayed to him about the Coast Guard Auxillary and the U.S.P.S.

In the end it's still his boat to lose if that's what he wants to let happen. He can be very stubborn and there's no point in my trying to force the issue.

To answer Seafox's question he just bought a house in Idaho, In Caldwell- I think.

There were many who were kind and gave friendly advice: Seafox, Alan D. Hyde, mmd, Bruce Hooke. Canoeyawl, ssor, Stargazer 14.

Thanks to you all and I am truly sorry if I missed anyone who tried to help but I really gotta go cause I still don't have a car and my ride is here. So thanks again to all. If and when the problem shows itself I'll let you guys know.

One thing, while I'd probably enjoy observing these little dust ups I seem to be good at starting if I was you guys, I'm really not doing it on purpose I swear. I don't actually look to be the center of so much attention.

I just want to learn quick.

SC

[ 07-18-2005, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Stan C ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Stan C:
I should have mentioned right off that the hull is plywood, does the heat still dry it out to open seams in this case?As a general rule, no, plywood will not open up in the sun, at least not from what I've seen.

In the end it's still his boat to lose if that's what he wants to let happen. He can be very stubborn and there's no point in my trying to force the issue.Yup, my dad can be like that too...at a certain point you just have to realize, as you have, that it is ultimately up to him to decide what he wants to do...

One thing, while I'd probably enjoy observing these little dust ups I seem to be good at starting if I was you guys, I'm really not doing it on purpose I swear. I don't actually look to be the center of so much attention.

I just want to learn quick.

SCDon't let the nasty types get to you around here...it just seems to be part of Internet forums these days so don't take it personally.

I'm glad you are making progress on figuring out where the leak is coming from. Good luck with it, and with your father! :D

[Ken Buck]

Just to point out that while losing a boat due to sinking would be unfortunate, the important thing is what else could be lost if you or others were on the boat when it sank.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Ken's right.

Read this thread---

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=004529

Few things beat getting out on the water.

But, death is always silently there by your side, waiting to feed on a moment of foolishness or inattention, bad seamanship, or just--- bad luck...

Alan

[Stan C]

That's why I started this thread. Still, all I can really do is pass on what I've picked up and try to help when help is welcomed. While the fact that water only seems to come in when underway is somewhat reassuring, I know that it might not always be that way, depending on the source of the problem- which is why I've been willing to show my ignorance here -to try to get some ideas.

I expect that the way it is going to go is that my father will ask someone around the marina for advice, maybe whoever it was that helped him out when his transmission linkage came apart.

It seems that he's not in a rush to do anything about it. I know that he can't make it into the slip without someone on the bow to fend off because of the tight turn and the bowsprit across the way so I really don't think there is anything to worry about right now, he won't be going out alone. For myself, I wouldn't fail to at least expose the bilges as much as possible and be looking around down there as soon as the boat is underway, to avoid unpleasant suprises.

I'll post any new info when it is available.

SC