Gybing Perfered

[WindHawk]

Realizing that the 258 sq. ft. of sail on my Com-Pac 23 doesn't provide a main big enough to really snap your head off except for a full-blown crash gybe, I sometimes wonder how much I'm missing by not having a bigger main.

For example, with the furling 135% genoa out full, whenever it's possible we've taken to gybing instead of tacking because with no jib track, it's much easier to simply sheet in the main, and let the wind tend the jib rather than work it around the mast ourselves. The main goes over so gently when she gybes that it amazes me. I suppose, we loose a bit of speed by sheeting the main so tightly before the gybe, but I can find plenty of other ways of getting excited while sailing without having to add fear of a crushed skull to the mix.

I've never done it, but my son once let his eye wander and he crashed the main. I believe it was a leason learned (for both of us) :eek:

The question is, with jib alone we can get a steady 5.6/5.7 knots on a beam reach in about 20 kt. winds (but she's over powered and too much to weather). With both sails up, and genoa furled 10-15% we can match the five-sixes, and she's balanced nicely (tough boat, shoal draft, I suspect we may be making some sideways progress, but I still have to measure it precisely. BTW: No fear until the winds up over 25 knots). With just the main up, she tops out at about 2 knots slower, but the ride makes you forget about the wind, even at 20. Mast height is only 30 feet, but the SA/D is 19.1

Main too small?? Or, rather, mast too short??? With a hull speed of just about 6 knots, we're not going to gain much top end, perhaps a little down wind in light air? We're not ready for a kite, yet.

[ 12-13-2005, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: WindHawk ]

[Kim Whitmyre]

Who are you racing? ;)

[WindHawk]

Why, we're racing with the wind... ;)

[Figment]

A 135 on a 23' boat shouldn't be difficult to tack at all. I'd focus on that.

[WindHawk]

It's not hard to tack, it's just easier to gybe. I sometimes get the feeling that the guys on bigger boats are afraid (reluctant) to gybe, and not having that experience with the smaller sail, I was just curious.

Certainly, a SA/D of over 19 implies that I have plenty of sail, but I suspect that many of the rule-of-thumb ratio's begin to be less indicative of the true situation on smaller boats.

[Ian McColgin]

WindHawk, does that genny have foam ribs along the luff or something else designed to make it a reefing genny? You can tell if the sail maker also provided reef peak and tack patches. If not and if you're just rolling a roller-furler part way you hurt the sail and desperatly decay the windward efficiency, somewhat less desperatly harm off the wind performance, and you damage the sail.

Too many sloop people substitute sailing on jib alone for getting a reefed main and smaller jib just right. As conditions get worse, having a sail that has only one unsparred edge is a very good thing.

So, to start with, were she my boat I'd make sure of a superb all from the cockpit reefing system and a choise of another smaller jib. Maybe have luff foam for both and a defined reef for each so that you have a choise of 135%/115% in the light jib and 100%/85% in the heavy jib.

Add shroud rollers or learn to haul that furling line a bit on each tack.

If you've no boom vang, add that.

Gybing a smallish sail by centering it is possible on this boat - you do it all the time - but gets wobbly as the wind hikes up and the sail tries to overpower your steering. I see no harm in learning how to really quickly haul in the main sheet as the gybe commences, keeping up almost with the boom's motion. Once it's across, don't stop it with the sheet until the sheet is really moving through the blocks. This means handling by a person with hard hands or gloves. Point is, there's good friction in the main sheet blocks to absorb some of the impact of the gy be before you put on the brakes yourself.

Your gybes will be more certain, boat motion more purposful, and all of the Dock Committee will approve.

G'luck

[wyndham]

Maybe I'm missing something, but for the life of me I can't figure out what your reluctance to tacking is. Tacking is easier than gybing for all the reasons you describe, it reuires someone handling the main and the jib. tacking requires only a jib trimmer. Do you gybe going to windward as well? With all due respect it sounds like you need a lesson or two.

[John B]

What they said
:D
ali rig ? we crash gybe those all the time.sometimes there's no choice :rolleyes:

But I don't quite get it either. It certainly sounds like your gybing rather than tacking when going to windward. Throwing away a few boatlengths on a manouvre like that is an anathama to most sailing people. We'll do a chicken gybe if the wind is up and I can't get the main in for a controlled gybe on our wooden rig, but that's the opposite of what I think you're doing.We do that run to run.
What's this about 'no track'? If your genoa is trimmed correctly its basically set and forget. The track is there for setting fairleads for different sails and perhaps trimming on a reach if you're racing. I don't see how it or the absence of itcan affect a tack?

[ 12-13-2005, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Ric_Bergstrom]

Never in my wildest dreams would I substitute a Gybe for a Tack.

I can think of conditions I would take the long way around and tack instead of gybe. (too few or not enough experience with crew and too much breeze).

Really, a well executed tack is not all that hard and shouldn't present ANY issues with a 135.

You are keeping way on, bring her into the wind smartly, backing the jib just a touch to rotate her, a good fast break off the winch and a quick hand over hand tailing of the new working sheet with 1 turn on, add a turn as it slows then 3-4 turns on the drum and grind her home as she comes up to speed...

You have self tailng winches??? They are handy, but not critical.

Now if you had a 150 sized deck sweeper and life lines and all that fun then a deck monkey is nice to have when you need to run the genoa around and call for a "skirt". ( I know I was one!)

Believe me the guys on the bigger boats aren't afraid to gybe....

Ric

[WindHawk]

The sails are Air-Force, and the genoa is built for roller-reefing. It looks ugly when reefed, and I don't think it helps with the sail shape much (let me rephrase that, the big lump on the forestay slows us down a bit), so tacking is really not a problem, just work & wear on the sail.

I generally try to stay on a broad reach & not run straight downwind; so, when gybing, the main is almost-always powered even when tightly sheeted. My son & I both learned to sail on Flying Juniors, and I have a 13' wooden yawl (the FJ's are 13' as well), and both of them could very well get your attention if you missed the sheet while gybing. This is the first year we've had the 23, and I still remember the first time we gybed, we both looked at each other completely astonished. It was that gentle.

We had a very windy season this year, and we gybed in 15-20 knots with no problem, which is something that I suppose should be done on ocassion for practice anyway. Beyond that, over 20 knots, well there's no reason to ask for trouble. ;) But over 20 knots, the jib (135%)needs to be reefed anyway, so we tack.

[WindHawk]

Not to windward, on a reach.

[Ric_Bergstrom]

Just go the shortest way around be done with it. Unless a Gybe is going to hurt someone, then tack.

I suppose if you are just reaching back and forth aimlessly then do what you like.

I'd rather tack.

[WindHawk]

I guess I didn't make that clear Ric, yes we're reaching back & forth aimlessly but with a purpose... :D

[John B]

Ahhh, I see said the blind man. :D
Yeah , we'll do that in the light if it suits the mood. Its an ideal manouvre for picking up those compulsory man overboard drill pick ups... caps, breadboards, swim ladders, buckets.... because it brings you back to the point el rapido ,with way off. Good to practise it because different situations require different methods.

[Ian McColgin]

WindHawk, it sounds like a roller-furler, not a roller-reefer. I know of only two methods for correctly roller-reefing a jib.

Some years back and it may have gone off the market one of the foil manufacturors came up with a foil that actually wound up more mid luff than at the peak or tack. If the sail was cut for it, that gave a nice shape at any degree of reef. However, it was found wise to put patches on for reefed tacks and peaks as the strain hurt the sail.

A far cheaper method involves sewing a series of foam strips along the luff, more at the center. Strips because as the sail rolled the gaps between could close neatly - flat foam would bunch and buckle. This method will give exactly one right place to reef to, which the tack and peak patches make easily discernable.

Everything else I've heard called roller reefing was really roller furling as the reefed sail set like the celluitic ass end of syfolitic hippopotomous.

At least invest in a 100% jib for the breezier days. You'll sail faster and happier.

[WindHawk]

Now, that I hadn't thought of John. We were taught for the MOB to hit a beam reach, and then tack around to return. The idea being that the tack would be less dangerous than a gybe, especially in an intense moment (I believe that's the ASA recommended way of doing things). We only did one MOB drill last year to save a hat that, sadly, did not survive. Yes, poor seamanship, I know; next year we'll do better. Right now, on this boat, I think I might go for the gybe because I can do that without looking. Practice is needed. A back winded jib would likely avert my eyes from the MOB.

[WindHawk]

Ian, if I had only known then what I know now I would likely have gone for the 100% Jib. The dealer said I'd appreciate the 135%, but whenever the wind has been light enough to need it for simple daysailing, it was light enough to be happier ashore. However, I'd probably regret those words someday when I had to motor 10 miles home because the wind fell, and I needed a jenny... ;)

Don Casey says we should all become canvas workers, and sew our own...

[John B]

point #1. you get to buy a second jib to expand your sail wardrobe. EVERYONE knows that spending money on such a thing is entirely reasonable and in fact, since its basically a safety related control issue, you'd almost be remiss if you didn't. Say after me" money spent on boats is not presents to one self". but hey, christmas is coming. :D
point #2 ....as above.

re the MOB.. yes , we have to do that too if the wind is up but the issue is washing off enough speed and being able to come back to the 'point' at an angle that allows you to stop. A beam reach is difficult for us because even flaked off we still may have power on especially if we're afraction high. So personally, I think its better to dip to a broad reach and tack so you come back to the point at a close reach . Or do the gybe if its light. Thats real quick . I'd do it without compunction on an ali rig.

Ian. still laughing. do you think you could have worked the word 'scrofulous' in there as well. LOL.

[Ian McColgin]

One must have survived dangerous toilett training in infancy and grown to an anal-retentive adulthood to make sails, but that's another issue.

My own favored recovery if someone is dropped when on a beam reach or tighter is toss the Danbouy and deploy the Lifesling while starting a snap tack without touching the jib, thus turning much faster and taking some weigh off, all the way around to a gybe (depending on the boat and the wind you may or may not need to ease and then trim the main) and rounding up as we go a little to leeward of the casualty, now pretty slow, and one final tack still leaving the jib alone so that we come up hove-to just about abeam and to weather of the casualty.

I could do this evolution single-handed with Granuaile, all 5 sails up, so it's not just a small boat trick.

If on a broad reach or run I just round up to a beat, tack when I'll go just below the casualty, and then tack into a heave-to just above.

I like being hove-to and picking up over the leerail as then the boat will take care of herself while I attend to the rescue.

[George.]

Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
... if someone is dropped when on a beam reach or tighter ... snap tack without touching the jib, thus turning much faster and taking some weigh off, all the way around to a gybe (depending on the boat and the wind you may or may not need to ease and then trim the main) and rounding up as we go a little to leeward of the casualty, now pretty slow, and one final tack still leaving the jib alone so that we come up hove-to just about abeam and to weather of the casualty.

Now you have my attention.

COuld you explain this in a bit more detail? I think I may try it a couple of times with a sandbag tied to a life preserver, if the damned rain ever stops and the wind picks up this weekend...

[WindHawk]

Here's a line drawing of a CP-23 (it's built of some funny stuff... varnish just peels off ;) ):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v290/WindHawk/boat_23_5.jpg

[Patrick Miller]

On the subject of man overboard, I used to subscribe to the instant gybe theory. Then it happened to me. I was on trapeze on a hard beat in YW Diamond (30' open racing keelboat with half the four man crew on trapeze). I was usually the helmsman on that boat but because I weigh in at 95 kilograms I was on the wire on this 30 knot day. The adjusting tackle on the trapeze snapped (the down side of 95kg) and I was in the drink - full wet weather gear and no lifejacket. (I know, I know - dumb situation to get into!)

The remaining crew, working on several different theories at once, got themselves in a terrible muddle and lost sight of me in large seas. I could see them plainly arseing about and was getting pretty annoyed at the thought of drowning while my so-called friends buggered up a pretty simple (I thought) rescue.

After a frantic 15 minutes they got close enough to me to grab me by my harness (at least one thing went right) and rolled me into the boat.

When we were out the following week (admittedly in 15 knots rather than 30) I was telling them what I thought they should have done when someone threw the life ring overboard and said "you're so smart, rescue that!"

Instantly I threw the helm over without letting the jib sheet go - result? Hove to, fore-reaching at about 1 knot a short distance upwind from the life ring. This gave me time to get my bearings and spot the life ring. When I was good and ready I was able to let go the jib sheet and run down, gybe and shoot up into the wind for a one handed pick up, much the same as retrieving a mooring. Easy peasy.

I'm now a convert to heaving to, but probably only under plain sail (no spinnakers). Then you can make a calm rational decision on the best method suited to the particular circumstances. And instantly heaving to is usually achievable by the helmsman alone whereas an instant gybe needs co-operation and teamwork at precisely the time that it is usually unlikely.

At sometime in the rescue you'll most likely need to gybe because on a beat or a reach, the boat seems inevitably to be to windward of the victim. So you have to run back downwind and gybe around to luff up and pick up the victim. But it's better to do the gybe when everyone's expecting it and is prepared for it. I would rule out running down then coming onto the wind and beating (tacking) back to the victim without gybing because you waste time and you end up too far to leeward losing the initiative of the weather gage.

[Ian McColgin]

Every boat is different and the same boat behaves differently each day, so it takes much practice. Which really can be more fun than just reaching back and forth like a bunch of soldiers.

With schooners, you can probably leave the headsails and foresail pretty much alone but schooners often need the main let well out just to bear off.

This is not such a bad thing actually. In anything less that a strong breeze, maybe even moderate gale (Force 6-7) she won't lay over too badly with the foresail and headsails tight and the wind abeam so long as the main hangs out luffing. So when you get the the gybe, have the main way way out and go from nearly dead down wind to a beam reach on the other tack so fast that the sail is stopped by the wind and is luffing with the sheets unstrained. I've remarked on sheet handling in this sort of heavy weather gybe in other threads.

I found that Goblin and Granuaile both could sometimes have trouble staying hove-to with the jib up, especially for Goblin (Alden 43) if I wanted to leave the main loose and luffing. Grana had the advantage of a big mizzen behind the main but even for Granna the Jib could be a problem. Sometimes I'd keep the jib up through that first crash tack to pull the bow around and up past the gybe but then strike it before the second heave-to tack. I always had a bit of line handy at the foremast for guying the forestaysail to weather at moments like that.

If you've a hanked on jib, a down haul is absolutely essential for fast striking and for ensuring that the sail will stay down.

Roller furling really comes into it's own here.

I think the way to get to this is two-fold. Firstly, it makes sense to do lots of heave-tos so you know how to move and eventually secure the rudder and what combinations of sail trim work for what purpose. With schooners, you can usually heave-to with no forweard way and a little square drift under fore and backed forestaysail, with main slacked enough that it just luffs. If that's the case, then you can use some trim on the main to fore reach a little if you need to creep up on your casualty.

The other thing is to practice piroettes under sail so that the periginations of the main and those many fathoms of main sheet no longer terrify.

Then you just put it together.

It's actually huge fun and after you've got yourself and your crew orchestrated, it can be a good show for charter or other guests.

G'luck

[Patrick Miller]

Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
The other thing is to practice piroettes under sail so that the periginations of the main and those many fathoms of main sheet no longer terrify.

Then you just put it together.

It's actually huge fun and after you've got yourself and your crew orchestrated, it can be a good show for charter or other guests.

G'luckAt a state championship for Diamond class keelboats we had an informal backwards sailing race during the lunch break between races. It's a hoot. With the nose dead to windward you have your mainsheet hand push the boom out until you get a little sternway on. Don't be too greedy though, because the faster you go the worse the injury when the tiller finally snaps over to full lock under the load. 2-3 knots we could hold the tiller central against the desire of the rudder to go fully over. Small deviations OK. We sailed a mile downwind like this with crew falling about laughing. Considering my placing in the championships, I think I had more fun during the luch breaks. We used to circle each other too like match race starts. I guess what I'm saying is just keep experimenting so there are fewer surprises when something unusual happens for real.

[lagspiller]

I'd say that if you are on a reach then there would have to be a LOT of wind before bothering with tacking. Turning 300 degrees instead of 60 is a huge waste unless the conditions are VERY bad. It is normal to gybe in racing. A cruising type boat should have no trouble what so ever.

I also have problems understanding that a genny is a problem. Big foresail and a small main is an excellent combination in my opinion. I have read here about people complaining about a genny backing the main, but that must be a poorly designed rig. I have never had that problem on any of the boats I have owned. They have all been long and narrow, bringing the genny quite close in to the main. I have never seen any sign of backwinding. But my brother had a Hunter... his genny was backwinded all the time. Drove me nuts.

The best configuration is obviously several jibs. A roller furl will never have the right shape, no matter what tricks you do to try. In my opinion there are two choices. Roller furl for ease and real jibs for active sailing. Anything else is self-delusion. There is another joker here talking about reefing a jib. Forget it. Either get a smaller jib, luff or douse a sail... if performance is important. Get a roller furl if it is not.

[Dan Payne]

longer boom. (watch your head).

[Ian McColgin]

More thoughts on rescue and recovery techniques.

I happened to skim in the current SAIL of the more or less annual San Francisco Bay tests of various recovery tactics. I had the impression that the boats were mostly mid-sized sloops with some multis.

One result that of course pleased me was that the Lifesling was recognized as the best way to get hold of and pull back aboard your casualty assuming s/he is conscious. Also immediately tossing a danbouy and anything else that floats remain key starts to any rescue.

I also like that there's a growing consensus favoring recovery over the leeward side of the boat.

I was a bit surprised that there was not more emphasis on heaving-to.

Regarding getting a sailboat back to the casualty, I was interested in the returning to favor of going to a broad reach and tacking to a tight reach back to the casualty. I think this might well be best on single stick boats. The return reach is off the wind enough that even a singlehander should be able to sheet in the jib adequately without need of winch handles and without taking an eye off the casualty. I've found it a perfectly good recovery maneuver in sloops - use it lots for hat overboard drills.

The advantage of my tack-gybe-tack-into-heave-to is that the Lifesling line will absolutely deploy around the casualty. Also you stay closer with a better view of the casualty from the cockpit, a major plus in the larger divided rig.

No technique will work without lots of practice and no one technique is right for all conditions.

Try them all.

Not all Hat-Ooverboard drills are successful. To wit:

THE LOSS OF A FIGAWEE HAT

My shame, my horror, as the wind blew hard,
So hard. I was sick when the wind caught the brim
And in that heartbeat your hat flew
Off my head, astern, to briefly swim
Before in water rough and wild and dank
We lost its sight and pray that painlessly it sank.

Had we but done overboard drills,
Were we prepared as sailors should be,
Were we that day sailing for more than cheap thrills,
And trying not to toss our bowels upon the sea,
Perhaps we'd have sprung in action toward
That momentary plaintive cry, "Hat overboard!"

But no sooner than we knew it'd flown,
We're sorry, in that sickening sea it drowned.

[WindHawk]

Free hat, too. The loss is deeply felt, and sorrowfully mourned...

[Ian McColgin]

Free?

Far from it.

Like hats from other spiffy races, the Figawee hats year by hear are held quite dearly and occasionally are sold for stunning prices.

I have been known to sail about the starting line of the Figawee Race boathook at the ready collecting hats. Our all time record was three, all from one boat. We just followed in their wake picking them up. To the crew's horror, the skipper was determined to make his start and did not care that three of his people wanted to circle back to us for their hats.