West vs MAS

[quickstep192]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm new here. If someone can point me to the post, I'd appreciate it. Anyway, I'm curious about opinions on MAS epoxy versus West. I've used West as long as I can remember, but I hear lots of buzz about MAS and it's absence of amine blush.

[JimD]

quickstep, don't know about MAS, but Raka also has a so-called non blushing hardener which I have just started using. Haven't detected any noticable blush film yet but I don't know chemistry from a hole in the ground and I intend to give all cured surfaces a wash and a scrub anyway, just because.

[NormMessinger]

I have no way of comparing technical properties from one expoxy to another. West is a 1:5 mix while MAS is a 1:2. MAS is much less viscous and seems to take longer to cure. On boats, I've only used WEST, MAS and System Three and of those I let price be my guide.

Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances.

[paul oman]

I've posted some comparison criteria for marine epoxies at:

www.epoxyproducts.com/mepoxies.html (http://www.epoxyproducts.com/mepoxies.html)

hope it helps!

paul oman

[Bob Perkins]

I've had an ongoing self-debate on this matter for a while.

I've used West on my stripper canoe - back then (1996) they didn't have the clear hardener (207?). It was ok - my first time doing it.

Since then I've had exposure to System 3 and a little training from a factory rep. They have a thin epoxy for wetting out cloth that seems real nice.

But... Everytime I go to a WoodenBoat show and/or talk with builders who have nice canoes/kayaks that have glass sheathing - They have used MAS.

A couple of data points:

West is a harder, more brittle cure.
Sys3 and MAS are more flexible cure.

Has to do with Molecular something.... (from factory rep)

I have found that MAS takes a few days to fully cure. I have gummy residue on the bottom on a few planes from cleaning up joins that have been epoxied.

Finally - for glueing/laminating/filleting I think they are pretty much all the same. Although - 2:1 mix ratio is easier to work with that the West system IMHO.

For glass/epoxy coating that will show the wood (canoes, etc.) I will go with the guys who make money off this and use MAS.

Just some thoughts...
Bob

[Bill Perkins]

Thanks Paul , I've always found your comments and links informative . Hope you aren't going to get run out of here .This last link sent me on a fascinating ricochet through your site . Cycloaliphatic !

[Barry]

Quickstep:
I have used both Wests and MAS.
I like the MAS. Only the MAS slow hardener prevents amine blush. It's easy to work with, but does take a little longer to cure. I like the longer pot life as I'm a Klutz and I can ususally clean up any messes with ease. The west systems worked fine also, but for some reason it lightened all my fillets. I was using mahogany wood powder(which tends to get dark with the epoxy) and my fillets came out almost blond as if I had bleached them. Don't know what that is about. Minor annoyance, but I was surprised as this has never happened with the MAS.

See the following link:
http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxtest.htm

Barry

[ 04-16-2003, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Barry ]

[gaffman]

MAS advertising speaks about no blush with the slow hardener. It is not entirely true. I did my deck with dynel and MAS and I have nothing good to say about MAS - excepting, that it does blush. If you want to put on another coat, that blush has to be removed. I spoke with an MAS technician about it several years ago when I did the job. He specifically told me that if you put the second coat on while the first is still kind of green there will be no blush and a chemical bond will be made between the two coats. If you wait until it cures, even with the MAS slow hardener, it will create a blush that needs to be removed and a lesser 'mechanical' bond will then be achieved. The long and short of it is, beware; the no blush statement only applies to the product while its green.

[gaffman]

Please excuse me. In my reply above, I meant to say that I have nothing BUT good to say about MAS, excepting.....

[Leon m]

I've been using West 207 on my boat and I have
been concerned about its brittleness I havn't
epoxied and glassed the outside of the hull
yet,how concerned should I be.If I run up on
a rock or two is this stuff going to crack?

[paladin]

W.E.S.T. has a reputation for being very brittle in cure and crazing etc when used for long periods in tropic sunlight. I noted several instances of this in S.E.A. and later the Caribbean. Also on my own 31 footer.....
The 38 footer used T-88 by Gerry Schindler before it was sold to System 3, and I used it on several other boats with good success. It stays minutely elastic in cure and does not appear to become brittle like W.E.S.T.
My latest three boats...Tana Mari, The current 9 foot dink and a sorta looong sunfish with schooner rig using tandom windsurfing sails all use MAS...and it seems like really good stuff. I cannot comment on RAKA except we had ordered some to try, kept it a room temp for three or four months and it seemed to "self Catalyze" on the bottles. The builders in Thailand really like the MAS stuff, perhaps because it gives more working time in the heat.

[davef]

Being a cheap kind of guy, I purchased all my epoxy from Fiberglass Coatings. I found them during a web search and the prices seemed too good to be true. I posted on here and heard a few positive experiences so decided to give it a shot. As I recall from the responses to my posting, they cater to the custom fiberglass boat building market and typically sell in bulk. For my boat and budget, the difference was significant.

www.fgci.com (http://www.fgci.com)

The price difference between FC and WEST was startling. For example, West sells a 4.3 gal. pail of resin for $253. FC sells a 5.0 gal pail for $129!

So far I am still constructing my boat so I cannot comment on the long term performance. I have to believe there must be SOME difference in performance given the price but the FC epoxy has reliably set each time for me and seems to work well. I've always glued up test pieces for every batch and the epoxy has never been the weak point in failure.

I'll let you know if the whole thing melts a week after I launch but so far I'd consider them if price matters to you.

Good luck

[thechemist]

Originally posted by paladin:
W.E.S.T. has a reputation for being very brittle in cure and crazing etc when used for long periods in tropic sunlight. <snip>The reason for that is that the benzyl alcohol plasticizer they use in it..........evaporates out of the cured resin with age and heat. It happens in warmer areas of the U. S. also, and from areas of a finished vessel with dark-colored topocats.

[Dave 901EM]

QUICKSTEP, Everyone has thier favorite epoxy. I have become a fan of the stuff that U.S. Composites sells on the web. I've tried WEST (don't like the price) and MAS, medium and slow, (had three batches that never cured and I am psyco when I mix).
Go to Dave Carnell's site, he has a good writeup on the basics of epoxy in general. With only three mfg's of the stuff in the world, it makes sense to me to get the type you like to work with at a price you are willing to pay.
A while ago a guy mentioned that he didn't trust the "shake well" label on the USC medium hardener. Investigation turned up that distributor/mfg's cut the hardener with a propritary goop to get the "desired" pot life. The shake well label was a CYA to make sure the stuff stays mixed after sitting 6 monthes on your shop shelf.
As for blush, it is a problem of varying magnitude for ALL the distributors regardless of the mix ratio or speed (slow medium or fast). Some claim "No Blush" on slow hardeners but an old guy told me once "trust no one assume nothing". Unless you can do a hot layup, plan on dealing with some blush, it may be miniscule but it's there.
This may have nothing to do with your question, but it's my two cents. Good Luck!

[Scott Rosen]

I like MAS. I've also tried a small amount of the Smith & Co. Layup and Laminating epoxy, and I've been very pleased. I especially like the 1/1 mixing ratio. I think it's a no blush formula.

[Carlsboats]

I have settled in on System Three, and have had nothing but good experience with it. Don't know how it would work on strip canoes, etc. which are meant to be bright finished. There, I would go with the people who build those all the time -- and be sure I was following their instructions to the letter --thickeners, shop temperature, fabric selection, the works. Where we all get in trouble is when we take the experience of an epoxy used for one application, and put it to a different use.