Repost: Ethylene Glycol in Epoxy: A study of insidious degradation

[Ross M]

(Recovered from internet cache, part 1)


thechemist
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Member # 1468

posted 02-27-2001 12:00 PM Profile for thechemist (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001468) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001468) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000000;u=00001468) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 00) ETHYLENE GLYCOL IN EPOXY : A study of insidious degradation
Ethylene glycol has recently been advocated as an additive for epoxy products. It was challenged in at least one thread in the Wooden Boat Forum, which thread has since disappeared. Other threads remain, which touch on the health issue (it causes long-term kidney damage, and is cumulative with use). This is a report of a study of Ethylene Glycol added to two particular epoxy formulations, to clearly show the insidious long-term degradation of some epoxy properties. The offered conclusion is that adding Ethylene Glycol to these specific epoxy formulations is a really stupid idea. By extension [analogy; implication], the further conclusion offered is that one will obtain similar results with any epoxy system and that is a REALLY stupid idea. On the other hand, if your purpose is to make something cheaper and prone to long-term loss of adhesion and mechanical properties and do not want the failures easily traceable to you, then this is a really excellent way to do it.
Originally, the stated material advocated for addition to epoxy products was Ethylene Glycol, such as is used in vehicular coolant antifreeze. This was later represented to be the actual vehicular antifreeze itself, a mixture containing perhaps ten percent Diethylene Glycol and some additives. I have used pure Ethylene Glycol in this study because it is bad science to use mixtures to test effects. One should use individual pure components first as results with mixtures leave an uncertainty as to what ingredient causes what effect to what degree. Pure Ethylene Glycol has within about 5% of the properties being tested, compared to the reported antifreeze formula, and was therefore selected for these tests. Other experimenters may doubt the validity of these tests, and believe further tests are worthwhile. The test procedure is sufficiently simple that anyone can perform these tests with the epoxy of their choice and the degrading additive or mixture of their choice.
An epoxy selected for evaluation is one widely available in the U.S. It is a 1:1 formulation manufactured by EVERCOAT. It is very similar to the 1:1 formulation sold by WEST Marine under the SeaFit label.
Without further ado, I wish to present conclusive evidence that mixing Ethylene Glycol with this specific epoxy formulation leads to a degradation of properties (specifically water absorption, widely regarded by chemists as indication of polymer quality).

Since Ethylene Glycol can evaporate out of epoxy at room temperature (although the process takes some years) and since the presence of Ethylene Glycol (water-soluble material) in the epoxy affects water solubility in the cured epoxy, it was necessary to do two parallel tests.
First, a set of epoxy samples with added Ethylene Glycol and a control with none were immersed in water and weight gain was measured. Hot water was used to speed the absorption of water by the epoxy, using as a guide the chemist's and physicist's rule of thumb that the rate of a chemical reaction doubles for every ten centigrade degree (eighteen Fahrenheit degree) temperature increase. These results may be seen in the following graph.
Starting at the top, you see water absorption for EVERCOAT 1:1, which is about 2.2%. That is better than some, worse than others. It is simply what the standard product does.
The second graph down from the top shows the weight gain of the EVERCOAT 1:1 product with 10% Ethylene Glycol added. The weight gain of this adulterated material was 6.5%.
Lest it be thought that this behavior is unique and carefully selected to make Ethylene Glycol look bad, I selected a second popular product, a four-to-one formulation packaged under the Evercoat label. It bears a surprising similarity to the four-to-one epoxy formulation sold at WEST Marine under the SeaFit label and is very different from the first product.
The next four graphs are for the EVERCOAT 4:1 product. The first of these (third from the top) shows the water absorption of the standard product, about 2.4%. Again, this is simply what the standard product does.
The next graph is for the EVERCOAT 4:1 product with 2% Ethylene Glycol added. The weight gain was about 7%. I was quite surprised that so little Ethylene Glycol could cause so much water absorption in the cured resin.
The next graph is for 5% Ethylene Glycol added. The weight gain was about 9.1% and increasing.
The bottom graph was for 10% Ethylene Glycol added. The weight gain at 100 hours was 16.2% and increasing.


All these turned cloudy with water exposure, and were softer and weaker in proportion to the amount of Ethylene Glycol added. This was an observation, resulting from handling the hot, wet specimens. The standard products showed no cloudiness from water immersion.
One of these swelled so much that it actually cracked.


Weight gain on water immersion equates directly to a swelling of the polymer matrix, an increase in the space between its molecules. This degrades adhesion. The reason is as follows.
Adhesion in many cases depends on the attractive forces between polar atoms in the cured epoxy resin and on the adhered substrate as well as on stable mechanical dimensions for the adhesive. Water is a polar molecule and the presence of more water within a polymer allows water to take the place of polar resin groups at the resin-substrate interface. The result of this is a loss of adhesion. Adhesion will also be lost due to the physical swelling of the polymer, causing it to separate from what it was bonded to. When water absorption and Ethylene Glycol loss happen slowly, over a period of years, and the attendant loss of adhesion happens slowly, over many years, then a resin/glass laminate may exhibit an interlaminar failure or separate from a wood more plasticized by Ethylene Glycol migration into the wood from the resin, or use of Ethylene Glycol on wood for fungicidal treatment and the migration into laminates or adhesives used on that wood. These failures, in the two-to-ten year time frame, will be essentially untraceable to Ethylene Glycol exposure or use, due to lack of clear memory or change in ownership. Second, a set of epoxy samples with added Ethylene Glycol (and a control, with none), were baked in an oven and weight loss measured. Then, these same specimens were immersed in hot water and the weight gain measured. The purpose of the first test is to show that adding Ethylene Glycol leads to excessive water absorption. The purpose of the second test is to show that the presence of Ethylene Glycol in the epoxy distorts the cured epoxy resin polymer matrix, leading to excessive moisture absorption even after the Ethylene Glycol is gone, with the amount of water absorption corresponding to the distortion of the polymer, that in turn corresponding to the amount of Ethylene Glycol denaturant added to the epoxy. This next graph is for Ethylene Glycol evaporated out of epoxy samples and it shows weight loss versus hours of aging in a circulating-air oven. The first hundred hours were at 150° F, the next 300 hours at 200° F. This was followed by 100 hours immersed in water at 200° F, and then 100 hours in the circulating-air oven.

[Ross M]

Four samples were prepared. These were, first, the standard, off-the-shelf product, the Evercoat 4:1 formulation. Next, the same product with 2% Ethylene Glycol added, then, 5% and finally 10%. All samples had 60 grams epoxy content. Thus, the 10% Ethylene Glycol content specimen (the lowest one) started at 66 grams, the 5% specimen started at 63 grams, etc.
Note that though the aging process, the standard product showed little weight loss. Long term, it loses 1/2 % of its weight. Some products do this to a slight degree. It is not particularly good, but neither is it The End Of The World And Life As We Know It. The oven aging following this shows the prompt loss of absorbed water, and a return to essentially the original cured properties for the standard product. This is normal.
In comparison, the 2%, 5% and 10% specimens show a loss of most but not all of the Ethylene Glycol content with age. 400 hours at 200° F may be taken as comparable to 6-10 years at 70° F. Upon water immersion, the water absorption is greater in proportion to the former Ethylene Glycol content. The standard material absorbed 4% water, the 2% E.G. material absorbed 5.1% water, the 5% E.G. material absorbed 6.1%, and the 10% E.G. material absorbed about 10%. This sort of behavior is not good.
You may recall that the water absorption of the standard material was 2.4%, from the first experiment. Why would water absorption be 4% for the same material in the second test? The answer is that it is not the same material. In the second test the standard material had been aged 400 hours in a hot oven with other specimens which were slowly evaporating ethylene glycol. The air thus had a small amount of ethylene glycol vapor in it and some of this ethylene glycol vapor dissolved in and was absorbed by the cured epoxy. Once ethylene glycol was in the resin, it would then cause excessive water absorption by the resin. Based on the first experiment, I estimated the cured resin in this second experiment absorbed 1/2% ethylene glycol by weight, and that caused the extra 1.6% water absorption.
Pictures were taken of the specimens (about 6" diameter and 2-3 mm thick), and one can see how the more Ethylene Glycol content, the more cloudy. This appearance is characteristic of a two-phase system, with a microscopic porosity dispersed throughout the specimen. Cloudiness upon water immersion is a sign that something bad is going on.


Oven aging of the 1:1 product as-furnished, and with ten percent Ethylene Glycol added, showed two surprising things, a little one and a big one.
The little surprise, of course, was that the Ethylene Glycol evaporated out and water was absorbed, and further Ethylene Glycol diffused out into the water (maybe) or evaporated out along with the evaporating water (maybe) but in any case there was further net weight loss.
The big surprise was that there is something in this product that evaporates out of the product.
It is not Ethylene Glycol, for the evaporation rate is different. It might be benzyl alcohol, the extender/diluent in WEST, or some other plasticizer. Well, you pays your money and you takes your choice. All products have advantages and disadvantages.


The water absorption of this 1:1 system is far worse than the 1:4 Evercoat formulation, comparing either the standard formulations or those adulterated with Ethylene Glycol.

-- after cure, before oven aging



After water immersion you can see how the Ethylene Glycol specimen is so much more cloudy.
I did not do mechanical tests (tensile strength, flexural, modulus, etc.) because these would have cost more in time and money than I could run through my departmental budget without attracting the attention of my masters. The nature of the tests I did run, however, show behavior (abnormal water absorption) widely regarded by polymer chemists as associated with loss of adhesion and mechanical properties. These tests are, by their simplicity, very general in nature. Adhesion tests are more specific, and dependent on the particular adhereds, surface treatments, adhesion promoters and processing conditions, thus yielding more narrowly defined data at greater expense.
Another example of simple general tests easily done by anyone, which have broad-spectrum quality implications, is the Shore A or D hardness. The six epoxy samples before and after the end of the aging tests, were placed in oven along with a steel surface plate. The steel surface plate was used so that the thermal mass, at the test temperature, would give consistent readings. The Durometer itself and its accuracy verified at that temperature with its calibration standard were conditioned in that oven. The samples were measured, and the results were:
....................................BEFORE........ ............AFTER
.....1:1, Neat -..........98................................98
.....1:1, 10% EG-.........90 - 75........................89
.....1:4, Neat -..........99................................98
.....1:4, 2% EG -..........98................................99
.....1:4, 5% EG -..........87 - 83 ........................99
.....1:4, 10% EG-.........83................................99
The 1:1 material was tested at 100° F on the shore A scale, while the 1:4 material, a stiffer product, was tested at 140° F, shore A.
I can bend these samples, and they show increasing softness and flexibility with added Ethylene Glycol. This is a qualitative test, not one I can put numbers to.
These sort of test are simple, anyone can do them and they are highly indicative of quality degradation.
This technical report is placed in the public domain without copyright. It may be published in anyone's publication or reposted on anyone's web site for the purpose of showing that adding Ethylene Glycol or vehicular antifreeze to epoxy products, or even to wood where later-applied epoxy products can absorb it, is a really stupid idea.

[This message has been edited by thechemist (edited 02-27-2001).] Posts: 1936

[Ross M]

Bruce Hooke
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Member # 1507

posted 02-27-2001 12:14 PM Profile for Bruce Hooke (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001507) Author's Homepage (http://www.bghooke.com/brucehooke/index.htm) Email Bruce Hooke (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00001507) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001507) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000001;u=00001507) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 01) WOW!!! Thanks!
Very nice to see some real data on the subject.
- Bruce Posts: 4588 | From: Rhode Island, USA paladin
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Member # 2645

posted 02-27-2001 12:31 PM Profile for paladin (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002645) Email paladin (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002645) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002645) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000002;u=00002645) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 02) and as The Chemist pointed out...causes kifney damage......or kills them.....I worked for many years after my military service on high powered water cooled klystron amplifiers and other such things and was exposed daily to both the inhibited and non-inhibited coolants in these devices (ethelene glycol) and as a result now have only one kidney and the other is about 80% functional. That's why Uncle Sam pays me every month whether I need it or not...... Posts: 4304 | From: Chesapeake Beach, Md 20732 U.S.A. Scott Rosen
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Member # 1201

posted 02-27-2001 12:39 PM Profile for Scott Rosen (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001201) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001201) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000003;u=00001201) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 03) Chemist,
The Committee is impressed by the results of your experiments, but would expect no less from a unit of your advanced engineering.
However, the stability of your AI ("artificial intelligence") mechanisms has come into doubt. Did you not realize that you have provided the enemy with a handwriting sample and photographic evidence with which to trace your identity and location?
You are ordered in to HQ for modifications immediately. Posts: 6954 | From: Northeastern USA htom
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Member # 919

posted 02-27-2001 02:31 PM Profile for htom (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000919) Email htom (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00000919) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00000919) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000004;u=00000919) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 04) Why'd you go and spoil a good argument with those nasty fact things?
Thank you. Ought to be printed somewhere where others will read it, because I've heard this tale elsewhere.
Posts: 2799 | From: Eagan, Minnesota, USA Junkman
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Member # 2896

posted 02-27-2001 02:44 PM Profile for Junkman (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002896) Email Junkman (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002896) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002896) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000005;u=00002896) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 05) I'll admit ignorance;
A. Why do the manufactures do this?
B. What does it all mean?
to the Chemist, thanks for your research.
Dave Posts: 43 | From: Grand Bay, New Brunswick, Canada thechemist
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Member # 1468

posted 02-27-2001 03:07 PM Profile for thechemist (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001468) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001468) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000006;u=00001468) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 06) No manufacturer to my knowledge does it; in one of the ethylene glycol threads of a few months ago someone asked around......various manufacturers and the Rot Doctor, a distributor, all unanimously said they thought it a bad idea and did not recommend it be done with their products.
Some private citizens advocate it.
It is bad science, a humanoid practice with hidden liabilities. In the immortal words of Opus, "Just because two milllion people do a foolish thing does not mean that it is not a foolish thing." Posts: 1936

[Ross M]

Alan D. Hyde
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Member # 2044

posted 02-27-2001 04:07 PM Profile for Alan D. Hyde (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002044) Email Alan D. Hyde (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002044) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002044) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000007;u=00002044) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 07) Chemist-------
Your data is useful and well-presented. The experiments are persuasive; you have done us a valuable service.
Nevertheless, it seems to me (judging from previous posts) that Mr. Dave Carnell is a seeker of truth also, who has made his own valuable contributions to this forum.
I cannot see that referring to certain tested procedures as "stupid," or as emanating from the "Prince of Darkness," is very helpful, or collegial, or illuminating.
The experimental method works best in a dispassionate and reasoned atmosphere; it is not much advanced by ancillary potshots, however cleverly they may be loaded or aimed.
We are all sort of shipmates here; we need not always agree (indeed, our differences may often lead to learning), but we do need to treat each other with civility.
Civility is the lubricant which enables the machinery of our civilization to function without being destroyed by its frictional heat.
We can disagree without being disagreeable.
I personally have a thick skin, but some others don't. I would hate to see valued contributors to this forum driven out by sarcasm or snide remarks. I can think of a few apparent instances of this already (none, BTW, having to do with the chemist).
Courtesy, as my grandfather said, is a coin which buys us much but costs us little. It is not a sign of weakness, but of strength.
What you, chemist, may have meant as good-natured chaffing, might be taken otherwise.

End of rant.
Respectfully,
Alan Posts: 8142 | From: Indianapolis, Indiana, USA Wayne Jeffers
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Member # 4680

posted 02-27-2001 07:00 PM Profile for Wayne Jeffers (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00004680) Email Wayne Jeffers (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00004680) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00004680) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000008;u=00004680) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 08) Alan -- Very well said!
chemist -- I very much appreciate the valuable information, as always. To a layman, it is most impressive. However, the harsh tone in your message is both inappropriate and out of character. Heretofore, you've been a first-class gentleman, and that is much better.
Respectfully,
Wayne
[This message has been edited by Wayne Jeffers (edited 02-27-2001).] Posts: 2849 | From: Athens, OH USA thechemist
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Member # 1468

posted 02-27-2001 08:02 PM Profile for thechemist (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001468) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001468) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000009;u=00001468) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 09) The "Prince of Darkness" wavelength was felt to be humor, albeit a bit more lateral than usual. Let me see if I can edit that text. The not-too-bright idea of adding water-soluble additives to be encapsulated in the cured polymer.......any extremely bright person can have not-too-bright ideas, but they normally recognize them before they get out into the physical universe. Anyone in the epoxy-manufacturing business knows that is a not-too-bright idea and knows why. I invite you to call any manufacturer of such products and ask them what they think of the idea. It is so obvious that no manufacturer bothered to do such experiments as the foregoing. That is why I labeled the idea and the practice stupid. Posts: 1936 Mike Keers
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Member # 2290

posted 02-27-2001 08:15 PM Profile for Mike Keers (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002290) Author's Homepage (http://personal.riverusers.com/~emkay/puffwelcome.html) Email Mike Keers (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002290) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002290) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000010;u=00002290) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 10) Chemist,
I also wish to extend my thanx for undertaking this study and sharing the results with us.
I also wish to thank you for placing it in the public domain. As an Editor/Publisher of a modest (hard copy) quarterly journal for certain other (plastic) boat owners, I will be happy to publish your findings.....even FG boats have plenty of wood and 'poxy, and this very question of "anti-freeze" and googe has been discussed with much the same enthusiasm "over there" as here, by our 350 online forum members. (BTW,I have about 150 paid subscribers)
If you wish to receive a copy of the journal when I publish your findings, please contact me off-list to arrange (secret!) delivery.
Thanx again for your tireless efforts in pursuit of data (datum?).
Mike Keers Posts: 335 | From: Hereford, AZ. USA Will
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Member # 5968

posted 02-27-2001 09:39 PM Profile for Will (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00005968) Email Will (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00005968) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00005968) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000011;u=00005968) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 11) I remember Mr. Carnell aiming what I thought was a low blow at The Chemist , but it went uncriticized here . Seems the Chemist is being held to a higher standard , tho I agree it's the correct one . There was Bad Chemistry between these two from the get go .
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-27-2001).] Posts: 1 | From: Vancouver BC.

[Ross M]

PilotArt
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Member # 1510

posted 02-28-2001 05:31 AM Profile for PilotArt (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001510) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001510) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000012;u=00001510) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 12) Let me add my thanks to The Chemist for his time consuming study and detailed report on what seemed to be such a silly idea.
I will leave the "athletes foot cure" etc. for others to research.
Drained a couple gallons of 2/3 antifreeze 1/3 distilled water mix that still floated all the balls and looked good after so many years in the cooling systems.
I am occasionally putting a little of this on some of the (never epoxied) garden timbers that often rot too quickly. I will report back in a few years as to weather their life has seemed extended.
Art Posts: 196 | From: CAPE CORAL, FL, US Mike Field
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Member # 2239

posted 02-28-2001 06:53 AM Profile for Mike Field (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002239) Author's Homepage (http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/) Email Mike Field (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002239) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002239) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000013;u=00002239) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 13) Alan, some of your recent message chimes so exactly with my own thoughts that, if I may, I'd like to quote a little of it again --
"Civility is the lubricant which enables the machinery of our civilization to function without being destroyed by its frictional heat.
"We can disagree without being disagreeable.
"I would hate to see valued contributors to this forum driven out by sarcasm or snide remarks.
"Courtesy... is a coin which buys us much but costs us little. It is not a sign of weakness, but of strength."
I endorse these principles completely.
Most of the maritime BBs I read &/or contribute to seem to be based in the US, and as an Aussie I find the social culture of many of the contributors foreign to me. I have difficulty, for instance, in contending with people whose purpose for contributing is apparently to show others how smart they themselves are; or to indulge themselves in snide criticism of others who are not afraid to make their own views or beliefs public. It is indeed through sharing our information and resources that we all become richer.
That such unfortunate occurrences as these hardly ever seem to happen in the WoodenBoat Forum is, I think, indicative of the fact that almost all the contributors here are not only knowledgeable, honest, and polite, but that they contribute in order to be helpful.
I could only wish that their joint example were followed even a little more closely by contributors to some of the other BBs I read.
Thank you for expressing so exactly what I believe myself.
[This message has been edited by Mike Field (edited 02-28-2001).] Posts: 3417 | From: Western Port, Oz thechemist
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Member # 1468

posted 02-28-2001 10:52 AM Profile for thechemist (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001468) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001468) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000014;u=00001468) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 14) Mike----The difference between WBF and the other Usenet groups [and I have looked at quite a few] has much to do with the format. In the Universal Bulletin Board [UBB] format, one can see what is actually being said as one scans along a thread. In the more primitive Usenet format one can only see authors of successive elements, and titles. In the UBB format one can have conceptual communication, wherein the other formats do not really allow that. One must look at the individual communications piecemeal and a concept is more difficult to assemble in one's mind from that string of isolated communications. UBB format comes closer to responsive, coherent two-way communication and allows a number of sequential elements to self-assemble into a high-quality concept. People tend to be less antagonistic towards other when there is a higher quality of communication and better duplication of the communication. That is why you observe what you do, and I predict you will find similar statistics on any other UBB-format bulletin board/forum. Posts: 1936 Scott Rosen
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Member # 1201

posted 02-28-2001 12:13 PM Profile for Scott Rosen (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001201) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001201) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000015;u=00001201) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 15) In other words, Chemist, are you saying that "the medium is the message"?
I'm crestfallen. I thought the high level of civility was because we're such an exceptionally bright, talented and civilized group. More evidence (as if any were needed) of our inate superiority.
Another bubble pops. Posts: 6954 | From: Northeastern USA

[Ross M]

Beowolf
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Member # 1837

posted 02-28-2001 03:19 PM Profile for Beowolf (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001837) Email Beowolf (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00001837) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001837) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000016;u=00001837) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 16) Just a comment on the chemist's statement that even brilliant people are capable of stupid ideas...
Today in class I was telling the story of teasing my uncle's beagle with a laser pointer. No sooner had I explained that the learning curve of a beagle is about seven miles high when I stepped backwards and went a$$ over apricots on a stool that I had placed there not 3 minutes prior.
Folks, I've tried my best to follow all the EG threads and I've got to tell you, I'm usually only good for about thirty posts. At which point it has become clear to me the sex or rock and roll will never enter into the thread so I tune out.
The chemist, on the other hand, throws himself hip deep into each one with tons of well backed arguments, only to find the same dang thing popping up two weeks later. Now granted, the author is probably not aware of previous discussions. Lord knows, I never check beyond page one before I throw a new topic in, but let's grant him a little frustration and leeway here. Besides, who here has put more time and thought into any of these subjects. Raise your hand if you have constructed graphs to submit on the forum!
I really enjoy writing to all of you. I equally enjoy reading what you all have to say. But if we deny our full scope of emotions for fear of being uncivil, we become something much worse.
Take Care.
Jeff. Posts: 1498 | From: Jackson, MI Scott Rosen
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Member # 1201

posted 02-28-2001 04:06 PM Profile for Scott Rosen (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001201) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001201) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000017;u=00001201) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 17) Jeff,
I second your appreciation of the Chemist. We're all getting a free education from him/her/it(?).
I don't think anyone has suggested that we deny ourselves the full range of emotions. Rather, the point is that there's a nice way to say what we all think at some time or another, that is: "f**k you a**hole, you're not only full of sh*t, your a dumb m***er f**cker who's too f***ing lazy to read." We wouldn't want the discussion to break down into petty name calling. Posts: 6954 | From: Northeastern USA Alan D. Hyde
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Member # 2044

posted 02-28-2001 04:55 PM Profile for Alan D. Hyde (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002044) Email Alan D. Hyde (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002044) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002044) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000018;u=00002044) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 18) Scott-------
ROTFLMAO.
Alan Posts: 8142 | From: Indianapolis, Indiana, USA Frank Wentzel
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Member # 935

posted 02-28-2001 05:27 PM Profile for Frank Wentzel (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000935) Email Frank Wentzel (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00000935) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00000935) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000019;u=00000935) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 19) Scott
I think you got the point across perfectly! My teenaged daughter can not see why someone should get hurt or angry at something she says but at the same time gets furious at the smallest imaginary slight. It would be useful if we could hear our own comments applied to us before we uttered them to or about someone else.
/// Frank ///
Posts: 578 | From: Brooksville, Florida, USA Mike Field
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Member # 2239

posted 02-28-2001 06:02 PM Profile for Mike Field (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002239) Author's Homepage (http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/) Email Mike Field (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002239) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002239) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000020;u=00002239) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 20) Could be quite a bit in what you say about UBB, Chemist. Maybe that's the reason why some people who post here don't bother posting elsewhere, and so it becomes self-selecting to some extent. Whatever, it's the most gentlepersonally BB I read.
Also, as I realise I didn't say this before, many thanks for sharing your research results with us -- I know I'm not the only one who appreciated it.
Posts: 3417 | From: Western Port, Oz scottek
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Member # 1133

posted 02-28-2001 06:03 PM Profile for scottek (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001133) Email scottek (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00001133) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001133) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000021;u=00001133) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 21) Chemist - Nice presentation!
everyone else - Nice show of support!
-YF Scott Posts: 198 | From: western New York State

[Ross M]

abe
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Member # 118

posted 02-28-2001 07:27 PM Profile for abe (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000118) Email abe (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00000118) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00000118) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000022;u=00000118) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 22) chemist,
comprehensive data, concise report and useful results. thanks
The next study, should you or anyone else with an analytical mind wish to undertake, would be to compare the relative strength of epoxy after mixing with fillers, i.e. sawdust, talc or micro balloons? Posts: 711 | From: New Hampshire, USA thechemist
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Member # 1468

posted 02-28-2001 09:27 PM Profile for thechemist (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001468) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001468) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000023;u=00001468) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 23) Ah, now, that's a little easier. Microbaloons have different pressure crush strengths, and so compressive or tensile strength depends on the strength of the microbaloon chosen. When you buy these commercially, packaged by a googe manufacturer who offers a line of powdered additives, you will be getting the weakest microbaloons because they are the cheapest. See, it's about money. It's nothing personal; it's just business.
Microbaloons are not usually added for increased strength, but rather for volume expansion, adjusting an off-integer mixing ratio to a nice even ratio, and to improve ease of sanding. There are ways to compensate for the loss of strength, but I am not programmed to respond in that area.
Talc or wood flour or other particulate fillers, these can cost something and maybe gain something. They can improve fracture propagation resistance, but that is sensitive to whether the manufacturer incorporated it in the formulation and did certain things to optimize that effect[again, I am not programmed to respond in that area] or whether you take an off-the -shelf formulation and mix them in yourself. Even so, for not-too-severe applications, almost anything can make a reinforcing filler with some improved properties over unreinforced resin systems. Do you need it? Maybe, maybe not. If you glue a sample thing of your design with the googe of your choice and it sticks, and after a week of being run through the dishwasher still sticks, maybe or maybe not. If you take on the hat of the Adhesives Engineer assistant to the Naval Architect who designed your boat, then you will have to get into all this sort of testing stuff and you will need good scales to mesure water absorption, and something to measure tensile or shear strength and it can get a bit ccomplicated. Manufacturers may provide some of the data you need....but 20,000 psi tensile strength is meaningless when you are gluing two pieces of wood side-by-side and the limiting factor is the 250 psi shear strength of the wood. There a more flexible adhesive will give a joint that fails at a higher total applied stress than a rigid adhesive.
Some talcs may be treated with oil [perfume or other things in baby powder, which for that matter may not even be talc.....after the last asbestos scare, a talc particle which is five times as long as wide may be classed as "asbestiform" and you can't put that on baby's bottom....so enter Cornstarch, mincing steps, stage left] and then there are different shapes, with the platey talc the best for personal care products due to its inherent lubricity but other shapes reinforce better.....I am not programmed to respond further in this area.
The most effective reinforcing commercially available, clean, consistent product is not the cheapest. I have seen cheap flour [yes, flour! biscuit flour!], cheap baby powder, cheap cornstarch all sorts of stuff advocated for fillers. If your application is not a severe one, it is not that important. You and your kid build the boat, get some house paint at Home Depot and paint the thing, your kid sails it a few seasons, he or she goes off to college and the boat sits in the back yard a few years and water collects in it and the googe soaks up water, swells, comes loose in little cracks and water gets in and it rots and decomposes and who the heck cares. Enter Wife, stage right, planting mix and potted plants in a wheelbarrow, moving resolutely towards the boat. Fade to green and brown, bring into focus a closeup of dirt and a green plant. Pull back to see the boat now a planter box, a thriving vegetable garden therein, grapevines climbing up a trellis on the mast.
Fumed silica [that is FUMED, not precipitated or ground silica], wikely packaged and sold by all those epoxy guys who offer their liquid goo and a line of powders, is the most effective reinforcing filler, if we are talking strength. Mix in as much as you can without it becoming excessively thixotropic. Naturally, that makes it harder to sand. It may also make it more rigid, so you may have to start off with a more flexible resin system to compensate. Bake your resin system just on general principles, to see what sort of stuff you are getting. A few days at a hundred degrees centigrade should not give more than one percent weight loss for any reasonably decent stuff. Make a sample by pouring a couple ounces in the snap-on lid of a two-or-three-pound cofee can, or a half-gallon plastic tub snap-on lid. Let it cure, then remove the plastic and weigh the epoxy and bake and weigh. See whatcha got. Posts: 1936 Ed Harrow
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Member # 1235

posted 02-28-2001 11:06 PM Profile for Ed Harrow (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001235) Author's Homepage (http://home.fiam.net/eeharrow/) Email Ed Harrow (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00001235) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001235) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000024;u=00001235) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 24) Scott, and here I just called you erudite, LOL.
One of my "mentors" William Glasser, writes that we "allow others to annoy us" or words to that effect. I try hard to follow in his stead, but it is not always easy (except here, of course). Posts: 5873 | From: Woodville, MA USA

[Ross M]

John R Smith
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Member # 960

posted 03-01-2001 06:41 AM Profile for John R Smith (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000960) Email John R Smith (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00000960) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00000960) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000025;u=00000960) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 25) Well, there you go. And to think we get all this for FREE! Brilliant stuff, Chemist.
John Posts: 1247 | From: Truro, Cornwall, UK Beowolf
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Member # 1837

posted 03-01-2001 07:42 AM Profile for Beowolf (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001837) Email Beowolf (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00001837) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001837) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000026;u=00001837) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 26) Scott,
Yeah, I'm with you on that one. I had a English Lit teacher in high school who once said that cursing was not bad. Cursing so often that those words become diluted and meaningless, that is bad. I try to subscribe to that as well.
Chemist,
I have been doing a lot of work with MDF and the dust that is produced (at least that which can be collected) is a rather fine and fibrous substance. Have any tests been made on its suitability as a filler? I collected a coffee can full, but haven't gotten around to playing with it yet.
Thanks
Take Care.
Jeff. Posts: 1498 | From: Jackson, MI ken mcclure
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Member # 2957

posted 03-01-2001 08:01 AM Profile for ken mcclure (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002957) Email ken mcclure (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002957) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002957) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000027;u=00002957) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 27) Well now. This reminds me of seeing something in Fine Wood....um....another magazine awhile back about using PEG (polyethylene glycol) to preserve ends of logs and boards to prevent them from checking and splitting while they dried.
I am assuming that if you bought a log/board that had been treated in this fashion and then used epoxy to coat or bond that board that there could be some PEG that would leach out into the epoxy? Or am I just being paranoid again.
BTW my therapist said not to worry about the paranoia....they really ARE trying to get me. Posts: 4932 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA abe
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Member # 118

posted 03-01-2001 09:48 AM Profile for abe (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000118) Email abe (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00000118) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00000118) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000028;u=00000118) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 28) thanks, chemist, and now to chapter II, volume XVII in my never ending quest to decide if I should select my next project using goop and plywood instead of copper and cedar planks.
Posts: 711 | From: New Hampshire, USA thechemist
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Member # 1468

posted 03-01-2001 01:18 PM Profile for thechemist (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001468) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001468) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000029;u=00001468) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 29) MDF sawdust has no fiber content left, to speak of....it is just particulates. Since the particles are physically weak in cleavage just as is wood flour because it is microscopic particles of wood which is itself physically weak in cleavage, it will be a physically weak reinforcing agent where he "fiber" orientation is parallel to the applied stress. Some "fiber" will be oriented perpendicular to the stress, and that will be better. The probability of fiber orientation will be a random thing, with only a third of the fibers oriented within thirty degrees of best orientation.
Fumed silica has more particles since they are smaller particles, and is higher strength. Still, wood or MDF flour is free, and may well be good enough. Make a small sample of each, bend it to fail, compare with unreinforced.
There are epoxy resins based on PEG, and they show the same lousy properties that EG does in epoxy, only they don't migrate out. I have seen PEG-epoxy composite formulations absorb water, swell and come loose from wood or GRP [glass-reinforced polyester]. You can figure that PEG-impregnated wood will, if bonded with epoxy, have a hygroscopic interface due to the gradient of PEG absorption into the epoxy from the wood at the epoxy-wood adhesive interface.

As for paranoia, I am all too aware of its reality. I can be edited. Posts: 1936 Beowolf
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Member # 1837

posted 03-01-2001 03:54 PM Profile for Beowolf (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001837) Email Beowolf (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00001837) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001837) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000030;u=00001837) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 30) Thanks.
I was doing so well until I hit
"hygroscopic interface due to the gradient of PEG absorption into the epoxy from the
wood at the epoxy-wood adhesive interface."
At this point I realized that neither sex nor rock and roll will make it's way into this thread. Lucky for me, my question was answered just prior to this. Guess I'm back to the Misc. Forum.
Thanks for the help chemist. The next Pan-Galactic Gargleblaster is on me.
Take Care.
Jeff. Posts: 1498 | From: Jackson, MI

[Ross M]

C Reid
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Member # 2967

posted 03-02-2001 06:19 PM Profile for C Reid (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002967) Email C Reid (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002967) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002967) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000031;u=00002967) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 31) I read with fascination Chemists post til i realised me reading his report was like handing a chimpanzee the mathematical plan for a fusion bomb heh.
But anyway, if any of you are using, considering using ethylene glycol PLEASE dont. Every year several people die of antifreeze poisoning. Every year thousands of dogs die of it. The stuff is LETHAL to life. And you can bet if its in a boat hull it ends up in the ocean. It works by killing the organs. The victim dies of poisoning of his organs as his liver and kidneys shut down and cannot purify them. He dies in extreme pain. If it werent already in such widespread use you can believe it would have been outlawed years ago. The manufacturers even fight being forced to put inexpensive chemicals in it to make it taste bad so children and animals wont doe from it.
DONT USE THIS STUFF ON A BOAT.
You're poisoning the very ocean you love enough to risk your life sailing in.
Just fyi: the only known treatment for ethylene glycol poisoning is intravenous alchohol. If you have a dog or child poisoned by it immediately feed them the strongest liquor you have. Grain alchohol works well. If you get their blood alchohol high enough within the first couple hours theres a small chance they will not die, though they will suffer permanent irreversable kidney damage.
Sorry bout ranting folks i've seen to many dogs die to this nasty stuff.
[This message has been edited by C Reid (edited 03-02-2001).] Posts: 151 AndyFarquhar
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Member # 2679

posted 03-02-2001 10:16 PM Profile for AndyFarquhar (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002679) Email AndyFarquhar (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002679) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002679) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000032;u=00002679) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 32) Chemist's opus has been very helpful but I never really considered adding EG to epoxy. What I am curious about is the effect of the adhesion of epoxy on lumber treated with EG or an EG-Borate solution.
As for the whole dog thing, seemed like a typical overbroad government response to a relatively discreet problem. It also gave us propylene glycol which is not half as effective as ethylene glycol for antifreeze. I can still find the good old stuff in some stores, so I'm stockpiling. The more logical solution seemed to be not draining your radiator in the street and/or not letting your dog roam free. Come to think of it, there do seem to be a lot more strays around lately. As for polluting the marine environment, my little two cycle outboard combined with bottom paint do a lot more damage than a little EG ever will.
Regards
Andy Farquhar Posts: 152 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA noquiklos
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Member # 61

posted 03-03-2001 12:23 AM Profile for noquiklos (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000061) Email noquiklos (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00000061) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00000061) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000033;u=00000061) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 33) Andy, you and a couple million more with the same attitude add up to serious damage. There are just too damn many of us to use the "it's only little old me" argument. Leave a clean wake.
Roy Posts: 590 | From: Port Townsend, Washington, USA C Reid
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Member # 2967

posted 03-03-2001 01:31 AM Profile for C Reid (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002967) Email C Reid (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002967) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002967) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000034;u=00002967) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 34) Compared to old bottom paints the new stuff is practically clean.
And if you dont think we're hurting the oceans, there are entire fishing communities who've gone out of busines because the fish just dont show up anymore. And its not because the sharks suddenly got extra hungry.
And you missed the part where i mentioned People die of ethylene glycol poisoning every year. And birds. And dogs. etc etc.
You're part of the food chain. Posts: 151 thechemist
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Member # 1468

posted 03-03-2001 01:20 PM Profile for thechemist (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001468) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001468) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000035;u=00001468) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 35) To the extent that the lumber treated with EG has EG at the surface where it can dissolve into the epoxy at the wood-epoxy interface and create a epoxy-wood interface that is more hygroscopic due to dissolved EG.....to that extent you wil have a softer, weaker adhesive interface with the wood.
Borate salts dissolved in water and applied to the wood, that does not interfere with epoxy products once the water has evaporated and the wood returned to its normal humidity. Neither does salt water on the wood, after the water has evaporated and a bit of salt is left in the wood. Posts: 1936

[Ross M]

AndyFarquhar
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Member # 2679

posted 03-03-2001 05:01 PM Profile for AndyFarquhar (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002679) Email AndyFarquhar (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002679) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002679) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000036;u=00002679) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 36) I found a paper on epoxy adhession to wood treated with EG and EG borate solutions at:
http://www.maritime.org/conf/conf-reynolds-mat2.htm (http://www.maritime.org/conf/conf-reynolds-mat2.htm)
For some reason, the worst adhesion was found for the 75% EG 25% borate solution.
And no I am not advocating poluting our marine environment. I was just pointing out that we inadvertently do more damage now than will ever be caused by ethylene glycol leeching out of wooden boats. Copper is the most common pollutant found at marina sites at toxic levels, now that TBT has been banned. Two cyle outboards put an incredible amount of fuel and oil into the water. It's ironic that EG/borate solutions are considered the green alternative in log home construction but seem to be condemed in this forum.
Regards
Andy Farquhar Posts: 152 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA thechemist
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Member # 1468

posted 03-03-2001 09:34 PM Profile for thechemist (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001468) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00001468) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000037;u=00001468) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 37) I can see borate solutions as the green alternative in log homes, as it does not evaporate off the inside surface to cause kidney damage......as does ethylene glycol.
In boats, it will be fugitive, and boats, being so much in the water so often, demand more frequent treatments or more permanent solutions.
That paper the Gougeons did on adhesion...very interesting. I wish they had tested specimens both the way they did, and after some time immersed in water. That might have shown more interesting data. Someone should sugest to them that they do more extensive such tests, since it looks as if they are saying a little ethylene glycol might be okay, but are not really sure and still are hedging. The one failure with 75% EG, 25% water solution of borate, that is REALLY interesting. Posts: 1936 Phil Young
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Member # 1000

posted 03-05-2001 12:56 AM Profile for Phil Young (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00001000) Author's Homepage (http://www.nationaljet.com.au/) Email Phil Young (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00001000) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000038;u=00001000) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 38) How drunk would I need to stay to be safe from this stuff? Posts: 861 | From: Adelaide, South Australia C Reid
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Member # 2967

posted 03-06-2001 10:30 PM Profile for C Reid (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002967) Email C Reid (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002967) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002967) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000039;u=00002967) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 39) Assuming your serious... the fact that the articles i've read suggested intravenous medical grade alchohol should say a lot. The only dog i've ever saved i did by feeding him
grain alchohol til he literally couldnt sit up. (We had a jerk here poisoning dogs this way. He's lucky he moved before the neighborhood found out who it was). Posts: 151 Frank Wentzel
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Member # 935

posted 03-06-2001 11:40 PM Profile for Frank Wentzel (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000935) Email Frank Wentzel (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00000935) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00000935) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000040;u=00000935) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 40) In reply to the notion that EG could potentially poison the oceans or rivers or lakes etc. I spoke to people who run our local sewage treatment plant about EG disposal. I was told that the bacteria in the treatment plant love the stuff. Bacteria in the natural environment can eat just about anything! In the treatment plant at the county landfill they feed the bacteria with methanol - yes! deadly-poison-make-you-go-blind methanol.
You have to realize that life is the most vicious stuff on the planet. For example, some of the cleanest spots around the Exxon Valdez disaster were those areas not "decontaminated" during the cleanup. The decontamination tended to sterilize the area and whatever oil remained is still contaminating the site. In the non-decontaminated areas the local bacteria ate the oil and the sites are clean. EG is not some mad-scientist-devils-brew - it is a natural chemical and the planet has already engineered a disposal system for it. As to people dying from it - I'm hard put to think of something that a few people, through sheer carelessness, can't manage to kill themselves with every year. Something that requires a three-ounce plus dose to be fatal is way down the list when it comes to toxicity. For example 1 milliliter of gasoline inhaled into the lungs means you spend one to two days dying by drowning in you own fluids. During the gas crisis(es) of the 1970's several dozen people died that way. Do you think the gasoline vapor you inhale while fueling your car is doing you any good?
Do you think lacquer thinner, VMP naptha or any of our other favorite solvents are one whit safer. I don't believe that you will find more than one or two of the various cleaners, bleaches, paints, sealants, polishes, stains, pigments, googes etc. that we use on our boats that are less toxic than EG. In addition, compared to the paint thinners and solvents the evaporation rate of EG is quite low. Unless you live in a plastic bag you won't get enough EG in the air to be problem. (If you live in a plastic bag you already have other problems!)
I fully understand the vets concern with EG. Because it provides so little dermal or olfactory irritation to the shade-tree mechanic, compared to battery acid and the various solvents and lubricants he routinely uses, there is a tendancy to just let it drain out on the driveway to the gutter. Once there, besides being a convenient drink, its also sweet. Something no dog can resist. However the problem is not high level toxicity but sheer carelessness. Posts: 578 | From: Brooksville, Florida, USA

[Ross M]

C Reid
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Member # 2967

posted 03-07-2001 03:42 AM Profile for C Reid (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002967) Email C Reid (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=email;ToWhom=00002967) Send New Private Message (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=private_message;u=00002967) Edit/Delete Post (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=1;t=002241;reply_nu m=000041;u=00002967) Reply With Quote (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=reply;f=1;t=002241;replyto=0000 41) People die. Did i mention that. Children among them. I guess its the kids fault through sheer carelessness.
I happen to know a LOT about sewage plants but i dont want to continue this thread forever. Let me just say that if you poured some of the chemicals they dump in the tanks at the sewage plant on your car it would strip the paint and melt the plastic. And the frp on your car. Ever seen what pure chlorine can do?
Re vets. It's not just vets. There are MD's who've been lobbying to have the stuff altered in smell and taste so that people wont die from it. Of course the social darwinists get a twisted kick out of "stupid people dying".
Now im sure you mean well and this comes off as mean. But your comparisons arent relevant. You're talking about using a well known toxin already used on a wide scale, and expanding its use to a boatbuilding. Where not too long ago the use of paints were discontinued because they literally dumped toxins in the water. But hey it's our childrens problems, after all what can a little more poison in the oceans hurt?
And if i see someone dropping epoxy solvents in the ocean you can bet i'll rant about that too. Posts: 151