H.I. Chapelle "Yacht" vee bottom

[Brutus the sailor]

I'm lookin at Chapelle's Boatbuilding book and would like the forum to find a design like that of page 36, fig.7.

He reasons there are 3 vee bottom sailing types. The two sailing types easily found are the modified sharpie and the Chesapeake Bay type. The third sailing type is the 'Yacht' type. This one is much like the Chesapeake style but with more deadrise and the chine at the bow is quite lifted. The keel is rockered and has a centerboard or fin.

He seemed to say that this style was very common in yachts of his day. I would like to find a sloop like he has pictured with the centerboard. The keel runs back fairly straight from the forefoot to what looks like a good deal of deadwood. She has a lot of beam too.

Have you seen one of these?
thanks,
B

[RonW]

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/WildOnion.html

[JimD]

Brutus, how big? What length are you looking for? Also, do want a cabin or cuddy?

[Brutus the sailor]

I'm in the mood for a daysailor like the illustration. No cuddy or house please. Just a simple sloop not larger than 20 feet I'd say. Also not smaller than 15 or 16 feet.

Brutus

[Brutus the sailor]

I've admired Atkin's design output for some time now. I was surprised at the similarity of the stem and chine run to the boat in Chapelle's book. But the plan view (and section) of the Wild Onion puts Atkin's boat in a different displacement class than I was looking for.

Every time I go onto that site there are more designs to temp me that I somehow missed the last time I was there.

thanks for the input,
keep them coming!
Brut

[RonW]

Try page 307 from -american small sailing craft- by h.chapelle, a 20 ft. skipjack from 1877, no cabin, 20 ft. center board...

[JimD]

On the small end of the scale Glen-L has a nice 15er

http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/gl15.html#avail

And on the big end the Atkin Victoria

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Victoria.html

[paladin]

If you have the WB books of 50/30/20 boats you can build, look at Charlie Wittholz catboats....he has them in the 15-20 foot range and they have plywood "V" bottoms.....

[rbgarr]

Harry Sucher's (?) "Vee Bottom Boats" might have plans for the yacht type. It's o-o-p however and pretty pricey when you CAN find it. Try inter-library loan.

[johnw]

Well, the Snipe class is such a boat. More than 30,000 exist. Essentially, it sounds like Chappelle is talking about the northern skipjack type.

Sucher's book is getting cheaper. It used to list for about $20, now I think you can find them for closer to $50. I'm not that fond of the sailboats he shows. The powerboats in that book are better. The northern skipjack in American Small Sailing Craft is one of my favorites.

[Bill Perkins]

Here's a "High chine model Northern Skip jack " from Harry Sucher's book "Simplified Boat Building - The V bottom Boat ". A complete table of offsets is included . She's 22 feet long, but surely you could scale her down to 20 ft. There's another boat documented that's 19ft.6 in . but I thought she had too much deadrise for speed under sail .

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid176/p35085845cce9c988bf6589ab35f16c72/f35dc342.jpg

[Brutus the sailor]

I like the true Chesapeake type deadrise boat (skipjack) but that is the second boat type discussed in the text. Chapelle considers the modified sharpie (1st type) and the 'yacht' (3rd type) to be more seaworthy than the skipjack because of its larger beam.

This 'yacht' type boat is not a straight working boat but some sort of adaptation for pleasure use. This one would carry some internal ballast for sure.

The Intenational Snipe is a good boat but it has no external keel and deadwood like this one. The Glen-L 15 is much like the Snipe in this regard. I also admire the Wittholz Catboats but this one I'm lookin for is a sloop rigged boat. I need to try and find Sucher's book and have a look there.

Chapelle calls the second type the skipjack. I think the 'yacht' type he says is so common was a development from the skipjack boats. Given less beam like a modified sharpie but keeping the deadrise to increase the displacement to carry more weight on the same length.
thanks everyone for their suggestions and input!

but I'm not there yet.
Brutus

[Paul Pless]

I'm probably wrong but isn't he yacht type that he refers to, similar to boats like the SeaBird Yawl, or Harry Pidgeon's Islander.

Boats that look like this:

http://www.boat-links.com/images/NoeMar.jpg

[sv Lorelei]

Or are you talking more along the lines of a Block Island Double Ender? (a deeper V-Bottom, generous beam, internal ballast?) Typically these boats were built anywhere within the 20-40 foot range and were most often rigged as short gaffed unstayed cat ketches. I think Chappelle has lines on one or two of 'em.

[Bill Perkins]

The boat from Sucher isn't from the Chesapeake . She's an earlier type from Long Island Sound . Dr. Sucher's book is great , but it's about working craft he documented . You may not find the answer there as to exactly what Chapelle was envisioning as the yacht type . Sucher does describe the "high chine Skipjack " models both North and South as distinct from the low chine models .

The high chine run was a key attribute of what Chapelle calls the "yacht " type , even though the old boats of this model were considered a type of Skip jack by Sucher . I think Chapelle's 3 type classification would have worked better if he had made the distinction Dr. Sucher did and labeled his category 2 " low chine Skipjacks ". Chapelle wrote the forward to Suchers' book . They were colleagues and I think you would find the book worthwhile .

In "Boatbuilding" p.274 a cross section of the work boat and Yacht type is compared . They've both got the same beam and internal ballast , the yacht just rating lead instead of stone , and showing a bit less dead rise in that example .It's hard to read these tea leaves .The Yacht type shown at the beginning of the book with its' "great deal of dead rise " may have simply been a model Chapplle set up to condemn in the body of the work .

[merlinron]

reading this thread, "sea bird", was the first boat that came to mind also. i remember seeing plans for it 30 years ago and though it was a great boat for the ameture builder(like me)..... easy to build, paint and galvanized hardware would right at home.

[johnw]

In American Small Sailing Craft, Chappelle does talk about the northern skipjack and shows a 20 foot example which looks like a better boat than the Sucher example. It weighed about 3,500 lb., so it must have had substantial internal ballast. Essentially, it is a hard-chined version of the oyster sloops that evolved into Cape Cod cats on the one hand and sandbaggers on the other. Interesting boat, and I'll bet it would be a great daysailer.

Both Sucher and Chappelle also talk about the low-chined skipjack typical of the Chesapeake as a different and later evolution. It seems to me that most yacht types evolved from the northern skipjack.

[Brutus the sailor]

Chapelle calls a distinction between 'yacht' and skipjack based on less beam and a higher chine line at the bow. The deadrise should stay at 18 degrees or less from horizontal in any case for proper performance. Otherwise they are the same.

Many larger (25' - 50') yachts fit this category (like Thomas day's Sea Bird yawl. Most of Sam Rabl's cruisers are like this 'yacht' type also. Most hard chine vee bottom cruisers of Chapelle's day wire like this and were an evolution or derivation of the skipjack working boats.

The thing is I've never seen a nice daysailor setup like this. I've found many larger cruisers like this. Some of Monk's small daysailors get close. The Snipe and Lightning get close but go the racing route with more modern backbone setup and less deadrise so as not to add weight in required ballast. More of a dinghy than a small knockabout.

Maybe there is a good reason this form fits a larger boat.
Whatdaya think? - Brutus

[holzbt]

http://mysailingworld.com/skip.htm

This has several photo's of the L I Skipjack.

[merlinron]

brutus,
i think you may have answered your own question........
so much deadrise at typical dingy beams makes the hull deep enough that it takes too much ballast to put the chine on or near the water for stability, killing performance with all the weight. if you canvas up to deal with the weight, there's still not enough beam to keep rails out of the water, because, in order to keep the windage down with all the deadrise, you have to make the side planks so low in profile. longer boats just allow the deadrise because they're proportionatly larger all around.

[JimD]

Here's a "High chine model Northern Skip jack " from Harry Sucher's book "Simplified Boat Building - The V bottom Boat ". A complete table of offsets is included . She's 22 feet long, but surely you could scale her down to 20 ft. There's another boat documented that's 19ft.6 in . but I thought she had too much deadrise for speed under sail .

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid176/p35085845cce9c988bf6589ab35f16c72/f35dc342.jpg

Selway Fisher has this somewhat similar design:

This interesting craft is based upon the 'V' bottomed skiffs which were used on the Atlantic Coast side of the Virginian Eastern shore for tonging and crabbing. These boats were distinctive, with their well flared sides, beamy hull and well raked straight stem and they had a reputation for speed and seaworthiness. The boatbuilder, Tom Dunderdale asked us to look at the hull form to see whether something similar could be adapted for ply stitch and tape construction to produce an exciting craft with a good performance and with plenty of room for family sailing. We have developed a hull which uses a lot of pre-cut ply components to make construction both quick and simple. She is half decked giving plenty of dry stowage space and a lot of reserve buoyancy. A steel centreplate is used and two rigs are shown - a Gaff rig and a Bermudan Yawl. She could take a cuddy and sleeping on board is a definite possibility. LOD (ex. optional fiddlehead) 16'1" (4.9m); Beam 6'5" (1.95m); Draft 1'1" and 3' (.33m and .91m); Sail Area 150 sq.ft. (13.9 sq.m). Weight is around 650 lbs. (295 kg.). http://www.selway-fisher.com/Chincotd1.gif http://www.selway-fisher.com/Chincoteaguep1.jpg Left - a stitch and tape Chincoteague under construction by Maddie Leach.

[Bill Perkins]

Here's the high chine boat John mentioned . I think it is a little nicer model ,and a way better drawing . The boat is pretty yacht like , and in fact "yachtsmen " bought up the fastest boats in the fishing fleet and raced them .I think she would be a fun open day boat .At 20 ft. 11 in.by 8ft.1 in. by 1ft.6in. These boats were fast . Sea Bird ,according to her owner ,was slow .I guess it depends on what you want to do .

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid208/pc64db4ecd7d8061897451ede0f44584e/ee652e26.jpg

[JimD]

Sea Bird ,according to her owner ,was slow

He thought she was ugly, too.:D

[Bill Perkins]

Looking at the body plan it seems that with a bit of judicious planeing , the visible chine line on this boat could be eliminated from the forward most station up to the stem . When fairing a southern high chine model I found the hard chine dropped away well back from the stem , despite how it's shown in the profile drawing .

[johnw]

Brutus,

The distinction Chappelle makes between the Yacht and Skipjack is the same as he makes between the high-chine Northern skipjack and the Chesapeake skipjack. Don't get too hung up on the terminology. If you're looking for a 20' sloop with those characteristics, you could do worse than the one in American Small Sailing Craft.

What's unfashionable about that boat, other than the rig, is the ballast required to bring her down to her lines. Even if she was heavily built, there's got to be about 1,500 lb. of ballast in that boat. Nowdays we like to use form stability and less ballast unless the boat has an outside keel. The form he shows won't plane. On the other hand, you can sail it from inside the boat instead of hiking.

[Brutus the sailor]

I think that Edwin Monk's Curlew in his book How to Build Wooden Boats looks the part minus the multi chine configuration. Some of the suggestions are very good here. I like the idea of a boat you sit in rather than hiking out. More seaworthy than fast.

This kinda reminds me of a Sam Rabl Picaroon minus the cabin. You must place a heavy keel and deadwood to make up your ballast and only add a small amount internally to bring you down to the lines after soaking the planking. Actually that old Kunhardt skipjack is growing on me! - thanks all for the great suggestions-B

ps-I agree that the beam may be the fulcrum point of this boat idea.

[JimD]

Atkin Quietude: http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Quietude.html or Kay http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Kay.html

unless it blows very hard and you carry full sail there is no necessity to be hanging over the windward rail in order to keep afloat.